Alternative Retirement Destinations For Expats (other Than Thailand)

[Tejas]

Once again, here is the list of countries we want to focus on:

Argentina (beautiful country no doubt; great beef; need to examine retirement visa system to see if it is better than Thailand; not much crime now)

Nicaragua (massive poverty)

Belize (great lobsters; scuba diving)

Mexico (gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific)

Malaysia (heard good around Panang........logical retirement visa option)

Philippines (safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system)

Costa Rica (beautiful; getting expensive)

Cambodia (massive annual GNP growth.......looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there; infrastructure improving but long way to go)

Vietnam

Indonesia (visa system is not that easy; Bali expensive; other areas much less expensive; earthquake problem)

Ecuador (too much crime)

Feel free to add something PRODUCTIVE.

[think_too_mut]

The Top 12 countries were France, Switzerland, United States, Luxembourg, Australia, Belgium, Italy, Germany, New Zealand, Denmark, Malta, Sweden.

Of the countries mentioned in posts here, the highest ranking country is Uruguay at # 13.

Bar Malta, the top 12 countries are the source of many of the retirees moving to Thailand (UK missing).

[Tejas]

The Top 12 countries were France, Switzerland, United States, Luxembourg, Australia, Belgium, Italy, Germany, New Zealand, Denmark, Malta, Sweden.

Of the countries mentioned in posts here, the highest ranking country is Uruguay at # 13.

Bar Malta, the top 12 countries are the source of many of the retirees moving to Thailand (UK missing).

Right...........I think we have a couple of spammers who simply refuse to do something more productive with their lives.

Once again, here is the list of countries we want to focus on with Panama added:

Panama (excellent retirement visa program; mountains/oceans)

Cambodia (massive annual GNP growth.......looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there; infrastructure improving but long way to go)

Philippines (safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system)

Argentina (beautiful country no doubt; great beef; need to examine retirement visa system to see if it is better than Thailand; not much crime now)

Nicaragua (massive poverty)

Belize (great lobsters; scuba diving)

Mexico (gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific)

Malaysia (heard good around Panang........logical retirement visa option)

Costa Rica (beautiful; getting expensive)

Vietnam (long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly)

Indonesia (visa system is not that easy; Bali expensive; other areas much less expensive; earthquake problem)

Ecuador (too much crime)

Remember, this list is for pensioners making US$1000 - 1800 per month. There options are limited by income.

Given this, I think it might be productive to see how many of the countries they can realistically live in on this income.........with a lifestyle similar to what they can get in Thailand for the same money.

For pensioners, three things are critical: retirement visa income requirements, cost of living, health facilities. We should focus on these variables.

[Pattayatony]

The Top 12 countries were France, Switzerland, United States, Luxembourg, Australia, Belgium, Italy, Germany, New Zealand, Denmark, Malta, Sweden.

Of the countries mentioned in posts here, the highest ranking country is Uruguay at # 13.

Bar Malta, the top 12 countries are the source of many of the retirees moving to Thailand (UK missing).

Right...........I think we have a couple of spammers who simply refuse to do something more productive with their lives.

Once again, here is the list of countries we want to focus on with Panama added:

Panama (excellent retirement visa program; mountains/oceans)

Cambodia (massive annual GNP growth.......looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there; infrastructure improving but long way to go)

Philippines (safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system)

Argentina (beautiful country no doubt; great beef; need to examine retirement visa system to see if it is better than Thailand; not much crime now)

Nicaragua (massive poverty)

Belize (great lobsters; scuba diving)

Mexico (gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific)

Malaysia (heard good around Panang........logical retirement visa option)

Costa Rica (beautiful; getting expensive)

Vietnam (long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly)

Indonesia (visa system is not that easy; Bali expensive; other areas much less expensive; earthquake problem)

Ecuador (too much crime)

Remember, this list is for pensioners making US$1000 - 1800 per month. There options are limited by income.

Given this, I think it might be productive to see how many of the countries they can realistically live in on this income.........with a lifestyle similar to what they can get in Thailand for the same money.

For pensioners, three things are critical: retirement visa income requirements, cost of living, health facilities. We should focus on these variables.

I can not agree with you about Cambodia (Massive annual growth>> Check last years figures, Cambodia is less expensive to live than Thailand, I have been living here for three years.

Cheers Tony.

[LA Don]

The family and I visited Costa Rica often with the intent to retire there. They had great rentista and pensionado programs.

When we first looked - the plus points were:

1. Required family income of USD 600/mo retiree (pensionado) or USD 1000/mo rentista.

2. Import an automobile duty free every three years.

3. One time import duty free of household goods.

4. Able to join the low cost medical program.

5. Great climate (San Jose is over 4000ft elevation in a valley.

6. Nightlife available for those with a need - better than Pattaya plus casino's.

7. Housing inexpensive (if not too close to town)

8. Labor cheap.

9. Excellent schools.

10. Great English newspaper (Tico Times).

11. No restriction on owningand operating a business (but you cannot work for a company other than your own).

Bad points:

1. Petty theft extremely bad. Anything not watched disappeared in minutes.

2. Only available insurance is government owned with ridiculous rules (e.g. if your house was burglarized and you could not show forced entry your claim was denied). All homes look like fortresss on the first floor.

The programs are bing wittled down each year and with the latest changes (this month):

Good:

1. Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo (bad part is you have to show money was converted to colons.)

Bad:

1. No free auto import (duty approx 200 percent value of vehicle)

2. No duty free household goods (duty 100-200 percent for electrical items)

3. Housing costs have doubled in top areas.

4. Now required to join country social security.

5. Armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event.

Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate.

I decided that if I was going to have to stand on one leg and quack like a duck while flapping my arms, I would rather do it in Thailand. Vietnam certainly looks interesting but, now that I have kids going to university in Thailand, I will have to stay put for awhile.

[Tejas]

Really appreciate the last two posts. Here are the updated "facts" :

Panama: excellent retirement visa program; mountains/oceans)

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth.......looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go)

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system

Argentina: beautiful country no doubt; great beef; need to examine retirement visa system to see if it is better than Thailand; not much crime now

Nicaragua: massive poverty

Belize: great lobsters; scuba diving

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food

Malaysia: heard good around Panang........logical retirement visa option (cost of it?)

Costa Rica: Good things about it: 1. Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--bad part is you have to show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; Bad things about it: No free auto import (duty approx 200 percent value of vehicle; No duty free household goods; duty 100-200 percent for electrical items; Housing costs have doubled in top areas; Now required to join country social security; Armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate.

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care? cost of retirement visa?

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali expensive; other areas much less expensive; earthquake problem

Ecuador: visa system? cost of living? crime? (one person said too much crime) health care?

[LamaiCat]

Question: after 2 weeks in Saigon to look around, where can i go with a beach?

Nha Trang or quiet Mui Ne beach close to Phan Thiet ?

I'm reading Wikitravel....

Mui Ne is not too far, but it seems just a small beach city resort.

Nha Trang very far, different climate, december probably cool....

Vung Tau very close. Price double on weekend, is it really too crowded with locals?

[Pattayatony]

Here are two Articles from the Phnom Penh Post Wednesday...

Travel dip means no planes at Sihanoukville

Wednesday, 17 March 2010 15:01 Bejan Siavoshy

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SIEM REAP

SIHANOUKVILLE airport is still struggling to attract airlines due to the enduring slump in the regional travel industry, according to an official at Societe Concessionaire des Aeroports (SCA), the French firm that manages the Kingdom’s airports.

Still, not a single airline has agreed to flights to the airport despite the offer of zero percent airport tax.

SCA’s Chief Planning Officer Tanguy Bertolus said Tuesday that new national carrier Cambodia Angkor Air (CAA), a joint venture between the government and Vietnam Airlines, was showing reluctance to fly to the recently renovated airport due to the difficult economic climate.

“Cambodia Angkor is a subsidiary of Vietnam Airlines and the Cambodian government, and they are not really keen right now to take risks and open new lines,” he said.

“But it is the case for every airline in the world right now that is trying to recover from the economic crisis.”

CAA was supposed to take off from Sihanoukville for its inaugural flight on July 28, but the venue was switched to Phnom Penh at the last minute.

At the time Mao Havannal, secretary of state at the State Secretariat of Civil Aviation (SSCA), said that SCA was hoping to persuade French President Nicolas Sarkozy to attend the airport opening, which has still not occurred.

Prime Minister Hun Sen said in December that CAA had – after less than five months of operations – already started to turn a profit during a year in which air arrivals to the Kingdom fell more than 10 percent, according to Ministry of Tourism data.

CAA has noy yet published a financial report, but Soy Sokhan, the SSCA undersecretary in charge of the airline, said in December that it had increased load factors to between 80 and 90 percent at the time, from as low as 25 percent following its debut.

SCA has reported holding talks with various airlines – including CAA – and remains optimistic that a recent upswing in air traffic would lead to flights to Sihanoukville.

“[Tourism] traffic is coming in again.... we are optimistic, but it is the end of the high season right now, so we have to see how the low season goes,” said Bertolus.

Ministry of Tourism figures showed that air arrivals to the Kingdom rose an annualised 4.75 percent in January, a sign that the industry may be recovering.

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Heavy machinery sales grind down amid crisis

Wednesday, 17 March 2010 15:01 Soeun Say

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Lull in sales of diggers, tractors points to long property slump

Diggers lie dormant Tuesday in the lot of a construction machinery seller just across the western side of the Japanese Friendship Bridge. Some construction equipment companies in the capital reported they could only sell a few machines each month since the slump.

SALES of construction machinery have plummeted as much as 80 percent following the global economic crisis, company managers said Tuesday, indicating that a lull in property and real estate has yet to abate.

“With the property market boom in 2007 and mid-2008, customers came to buy construction machinery at my shop to clear land for sale,” said Ly Huy, general manager of Chang Fa Co Ltd, which sells Chinese equipment from a large lot in Chroy Changvar commmune in Russey Keo district. “At that time, I could sell around 50 machines. But now, I only sell two to three machines per month.”

Standing in a lot half-full of excavators, road graders and tractors, Ly Huy is not alone: The economic slowdown quelled wide growth in real estate and property markets, resulting in the cancellation of projects across the capital.

“Our business is still not running well,” said Chhun Bunkea, sales manager for Multico MS Cambodia Co Ltd, which imports equipment from Japan. “Last year, I could sell about seven or eight machines a month. But this year, I can sell only one or two machines.”

Chhun Bunkea said he didn’t expect his luck to improve this year, but that he hopes business will improve in 2011.

“It’s not only my company’s sales that have dropped,” he said. “Many sellers of construction machinery next to my shop have also dropped [sales]. They complain that the financial crisis hit the construction sector in the Kingdom.”

Chea Sokha, director of Sokha Pounding Construction Co Ltd, said Tuesday that since the real estate decline his business had fallen 80 percent.

Prior to the downturn, he was hired for several home-construction projects each month. Now he gets about one a month, too little to pay for office rent and staff, he said.

“Most construction companies can get jobs from road-construction projects only,” he said. “Construction for home-development projects is very quiet.”

Lao Tip Seiha, director of the Department of Construction at the Ministry of Land Management, Urban Planning and Construction, said Tuesday that even amid the slowdown, the number of construction firms licenced by the government had grown from 112 in 2008 to 128 in 2009. Since 2000, Cambodia has licenced 819 construction companies, 166 of them foreign, he added.

[vantexan]

Use Yahoo Groups for country specific expat forums. For example do a search on Yahoo Groups for Philippines living or Philippines retire and you'll pull up many Groups, some with many thousands of members. Panama is another country that will have alot of large Groups.

Alot of the growth in expat retirement in especially Costa Rica, Panama, and Ecuador is due to relentless promotion of companies like International Living. IL can provide good info, but usually at a cost, and they always have "contacts" that hawk real estate in various countries.

Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite.

Belize is the most expensive country in Central America and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high.

Costa Rica is sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama.

Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Ecuador has one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities. Yahoo Groups has an excellent group call Ecuador Expats with good info. Ecuador does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense.

Colombia has gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean. Check out the "Poor but Happy" forum(Google that).

Chile is the most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure. With the big earthquake probably not a good time to be there.

And my personal favorite? San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

[Tejas]

What a GREAT POST! That is what we are looking for. Many of your statements are included below:

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef.

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense.

Belize: most expensive country in Central America and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth.......looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go)

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla)

Malaysia: heard good around Panang........logical retirement visa option (cost of it?)

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care? cost of retirement visa?

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali expensive; other areas much less expensive; earthquake problem

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

[monsieur]

First of all, i'd like to thank the OP for this thread wich is very useful.

Im currently thinking of relocating myself and although i'd like to work in the country im going, this post provides me with lots of useful info.

Now, i think maybe you'd like to include some foreign-friendly factor here.

I know this is extremely subjective but it will probably impact in a deep way your experience in this new country.

Thailand for instance is very foreign friendly at first (as a tourist).

Then you start to see some drawbacks (visa, anyone ?) but i still consider it quite farang friendly.

Cambodia, from what i heard, is quite barang friendly too.

On the other, Vietnam (though i love this country) is not very friendly and has a 'tough relationship' going for everyone.

(this is the main factor that keeps me from moving in this country)

Finally, Indonesia. There is a work problem here but that will not concern you since you are on retirement.

People here are quite friendly if you can forget the fact that you're gonna be a attraction as soon as you're out of main tourists places.

Always felt very safe.

Problem might occur regarding to islam (mosquee waking you up, traditionalist and machist society, problems if you live with an indo gal without being married - my indo gf often gets very bad remarks when walking with me)

Other great friendly places : Laos and Burma. Also theyre are quite underdevelopped, i could see myself live there (maybe not for long, i might get bored)

[jazzbo]

(maybe not for long, i might get bored) good observation Kuhn M. --

Boredom seems to be the hidden factor in a person's adjustment to a foreign culture... In the USA many retirees work at WalMart or McDonald's not just for a little extra cash but to get them out of the house and maintain some contact with the younger generation(s)...

What will you do in your adopted country? What is the opportunity to get involved with the local population? Hobbies are great but they can also tend to isolate you ... You can build your ship-in-a-bottle sitting at home but is there the chance to show the locals how to build a ship-in-a-bottle

[Naam]

(maybe not for long, i might get bored) good observation Kuhn M. --

Boredom seems to be the hidden factor in a person's adjustment to a foreign culture... In the USA many retirees work at WalMart or McDonald's not just for a little extra cash but to get them out of the house and maintain some contact with the younger generation(s)...

What will you do in your adopted country? What is the opportunity to get involved with the local population? Hobbies are great but they can also tend to isolate you ... You can build your ship-in-a-bottle sitting at home but is there the chance to show the locals how to build a ship-in-a-bottle

please give me one valid reason why i should

-flip a burger in McDonald's

-bag groceries in Foodland

-maintain contact with the younger generation

-get involved with the local population

-build a ship in a bottle or show the locals how to do it

i am retired since nearly 21 years and although i have never pursued any of these activities i never felt bored. in fact i wish the day had 30 hours.

[jazzbo]

Kuhn N. -- If 8.64 avg. posts per day on TV keeps you happy and non-bored, fine... However, all you have to do is visit the bah farang district of any LOS city or town and you will find that is not always the case.

[PattayaParent]

Viet Nam - healthcare excellent in Ha Noi (don't know about HCMC) but not good in rural areas.

Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees I know are married to VN and get 5 year resident visas.

[Jingthing]

Not sure I get your distinction between the retirement visa system in Argentina and Thailand.

I am talking about retirement visas. In Thailand, you can show an embassy letter and get extensions. Or us a bank account with 800K. Or a combination of BOTH. However, there is no requirement at all to import 800K of money EVERY YEAR into Thailand. For example, you can have a 100K dollar pension but if you use the embassy letter, you don't have to import any money. If you use the bank account, you only need the amount to top off your account annually, not the entire required amount.

For the Argie retirement visa, there IS a requirement to import the total annually required funds into an Argie bank EVERY YEAR.

That is a huge difference in policies. Also, Argentina taxes those who want more permanent residence (rather EASY compared to Thailand) on their GLOBAL income and assets. Therefore, many people lie to them.

[Tejas]

Not sure I get your distinction between the retirement visa system in Argentina and Thailand.

I am talking about retirement visas. In Thailand, you can show an embassy letter and get extensions. Or us a bank account with 800K. Or a combination of BOTH. However, there is no requirement at all to import 800K of money EVERY YEAR into Thailand. For example, you can have a 100K dollar pension but if you use the embassy letter, you don't have to import any money. If you use the bank account, you only need the amount to top off your account annually, not the entire required amount.

For the Argie retirement visa, there IS a requirement to import the total annually required funds into an Argie bank EVERY YEAR.

That is a huge difference in policies. Also, Argentina taxes those who want more permanent residence (rather EASY compared to Thailand) on their GLOBAL income and assets. Therefore, many people lie to them.

Thanks for the post. I am still not sure mainly because the rules in Thailand seem to change all the time. But what is happening in Argentina is what matters. This thread is not really about Thailand. It is about leaving Thailand for other destinations.

UPDATE from previous posts:

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. We need more information on retirement visa rules (some say worse than Thailand).

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense.

Belize: most expensive country in Central America and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth.......looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go)

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla)

Malaysia: heard good around Panang........logical retirement visa option (cost of it?)

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here)

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali expensive; other areas much less expensive; earthquake problem

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

[Jingthing]

Columbia has some great long term potential as it has become more stable. I haven't been there, but I did a casual check of the visa situation a while back and didn't see any retirement visa option. One pet peeve I have with commercial outfits like IL is that they minimize the importance of visas. If you can't easily stay there, WHO CARES?!? Armchair DREAMERS, that's who. Not the people who actually get on the plane and move to foreign countries.

A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa.

[Tejas]

Columbia has some great long term potential as it has become more stable. I haven't been there, but I did a casual check of the visa situation a while back and didn't see any retirement visa option. One pet peeve I have with commercial outfits like IL is that they minimize the importance of visas. If you can't easily stay there, WHO CARES?!? Armchair DREAMERS, that's who. Not the people who actually get on the plane and move to foreign countries.

A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa.

UPDATE from previous posts with an important point added that the retirement visa system is critical to understand.......we should not minimize it and should place more emphasis on it. If you can't stay easily and inexpensively on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800, the country should be removed from the list below.

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure).

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense.

Belize: most expensive country in Central America and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth.......looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go)

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla)

Malaysia: heard good around Panang........logical retirement visa option (cost of it?)

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here)

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali expensive; other areas much less expensive; earthquake problem

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

[Tejas]

Just found this on Argentina:

It’s easy to retire in Argentina with the steady income or retired visa. Applicants wishing to live in Argentina can apply for a temporary one year visa which can be extended annually. In order to apply for the steady income or retired visa you need to have a valid passport, and for retired applicants provide a public document showing your retirement status, your last two retirement salary pay slips and a monthly retirement income of £400.

If you’re not currently eligible to retire in the UK but want to take early retirement in Argentina then you can apply for the steady income visa. In order to apply for this visa you need a chartered accountant’s statement that you’ll have a monthly amount of at least £500 at your disposal.

For both Argentinean visas you’ll also need to show bank statements showing a deposited amount of over £10,000 in your account, 3 passport photos, your birth certificate, marriage certificate or divorce paperwork and a police check.

The standard of living in Argentina for expats is very high, costs vary from province to province but you can live comfortably on £500.00 per month.

Anybody want to convert the above to US$ for clarity sake.

[Jingthing]

Another point, the initial application for the Argie retirement is actually MUCH more complex than a Thai retirement visa (O-A) or retirement extensions. All documents must have official translations and it must be started from your home country's Argie embassy. If you are a long term resident outside your home country, I don't know if you can use their Argie embassy or not. My impression is that most people dealing with long term Argie immigration need to spend thousands of dollars on legal fees. There are also all kinds of catch 22's, such as you can't open a bank account there without a DNI (their identity number), yet of course you will need a bank account there. There is also very common double pricing there on big items such as real estate and rentals, in my view actually worse than Thailand. Another aspect, it is required to learn Spanish to get by there. English translations are not all that common and there will be a strong expectation that you speak it to live there.

[Tejas]

Another point, the initial application for the Argie retirement is actually MUCH more complex than a Thai retirement visa (O-A) or retirement extensions. All documents must have official translations and it must be started from your home country's Argie embassy. If you are a long term resident outside your home country, I don't know if you can use their Argie embassy or not. My impression is that most people dealing with long term Argie immigration need to spend thousands of dollars on legal fees. There are also all kinds of catch 22's, such as you can't open a bank account there without a DNI (their identity number), yet of course you will need a bank account there. There is also very common double pricing there on big items such as real estate and rentals, in my view actually worse than Thailand. Another aspect, it is required to learn Spanish to get by there. English translations are not all that common and there will be a strong expectation that you speak it to live there.

Jingting, you are compelling me to perhaps take Argentina off the list of possible retirement destinations, given what income range we are talking about here.

UPDATE from previous posts with an important point added that the retirement visa system is critical to understand.......we should not minimize it and should place more emphasis on it. If you can't stay easily and inexpensively on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800, the country should be removed from the list below.

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure).

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense.

Belize: most expensive country in Central America and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth.......looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go)

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla)

Malaysia: heard good around Panang........logical retirement visa option (cost of it?)

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand)

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali expensive; other areas much less expensive; earthquake problem

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

[vantexan]

Another point, the initial application for the Argie retirement is actually MUCH more complex than a Thai retirement visa (O-A) or retirement extensions. All documents must have official translations and it must be started from your home country's Argie embassy. If you are a long term resident outside your home country, I don't know if you can use their Argie embassy or not. My impression is that most people dealing with long term Argie immigration need to spend thousands of dollars on legal fees. There are also all kinds of catch 22's, such as you can't open a bank account there without a DNI (their identity number), yet of course you will need a bank account there. There is also very common double pricing there on big items such as real estate and rentals, in my view actually worse than Thailand. Another aspect, it is required to learn Spanish to get by there. English translations are not all that common and there will be a strong expectation that you speak it to live there.

Jingting, you are compelling me to perhaps take Argentina off the list of possible retirement destinations, given what income range we are talking about here.

Some notes on Argentina. Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices!

Should've mentioned Uruguay in my last post. Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards.

Go to Yahoo Groups, search for living in Colombia. There's a new Group that has great info about visas, etc. Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

[Dave the Dude]

IF Eastbourne is still in the running, Id just like to add that I moved from there, to Thailand

[elcent]

Number One for retirement is Austria followed by Thailand.

[BkkMD]

There may be other options, but none better than Thailand!!

Check out Montenegro.. Thaksin doesn't seem to have any complaints going from Thailand.

[harrry]

Montenegro...Pattaya without the heat.

[sandgroper2]

Maine --- inexpensive land, great lobster, people mostly speak English!

1k-1.8k USD a month is way too low to have any security blanket in expendable income almost anywhere!

Bali, great place, been there a few times, or the island , just off Bali, lomboc. Dunno costs or immigration laws, check it out for yourself if interested

[Tejas]

Bali, great place, been there a few times, or the island , just off Bali, lomboc. Dunno costs or immigration laws, check it out for yourself if interested

UPDATE from previous posts with an important point added that the retirement visa system is critical to understand.......we should not minimize it and should place more emphasis on it. If you can't stay easily and inexpensively on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800, the country should be removed from the list below.

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices!

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth.......looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go)

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla)

Malaysia: heard good around Panang........logical retirement visa option (cost of it?)

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand)

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

[Mitker]

Surprising Mexico doesn't seem to raise lot of safety concerns.

Of course extreme violence is concentrated along US border and in Mexico DF but I can't see the rest of the country being totally immune. But I admit my personal experience is mostly based on DF.