Alternative Retirement Destinations For Expats (other Than Thailand)

[Tejas]

Thailand offers (probably) the best package in the world for 'retired' people on a low to medium income..

I may add the word heterosexual in the mix..

But it's a dead end for people under the age of 50, who want to live here,have a family, work etc

It punishes 'immigrants'..so this pushes people like me to seek alternative destinations ie Cambo,Phils and they all suck ,in my books.

So we are stuck here for the time being.

UPDATE (with above comment)

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

This thread is for people who are looking for an alternative to Thailand. It is not about Thailand.

UPDATE from previous posts: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here.

Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each.

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion). NEED RETIREMENT VISA POLICY

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices!

According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery!

Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

[PattayaParent]

Update on the visa situation for VN.

I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor.

Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually.

If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal.

This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this.

Edit: I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$?

Edited April 11, 2010 by PattayaParent

[Tejas]

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

UPDATE from previous posts (see Vietnam): We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here.

Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each.

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$?

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion). NEED RETIREMENT VISA POLICY

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices!

According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery!

Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

[jaideeguy]

Hey.....what about Burma/Myanmar?? Deserves at least a mention and any details on retirement or long stay visas. On the map, it looks like the 'crowning jewell' of SE Asia, with many beaches, islands and high mountains [southern Himalias], friendly people....low cost of living?? But the military??

Too bad for Burma, as it does seem to have much more to offer than LOS geographically. Are there any retirees there?? if so, then how do they do it??

[Tejas]

Hey.....what about Burma/Myanmar?? Deserves at least a mention and any details on retirement or long stay visas. On the map, it looks like the 'crowning jewell' of SE Asia, with many beaches, islands and high mountains [southern Himalias], friendly people....low cost of living?? But the military??

Too bad for Burma, as it does seem to have much more to offer than LOS geographically. Are there any retirees there?? if so, then how do they do it??

Thanks........the list we have now is too long.

Burma/Myanmar will be a fantastic place to live and retire--major alternative to Thailand--in the future.

Now, of course, it has a long way to go (I would rank it behind Lao, Vietnam, the Philippines, and Cambodia).

There are likely some expats there, but I do not know of any.

I think we should leave it off the list until responsible governments finally decide to wipe its military off the map.

[LA Don]

Looks like a lot of alternatives to Thailand. I was reading a price index comparison on numero.com and it seems most of the alternatives mentioned are really close in total cost of livng. Only one area not mentioned in your list showed a serious lower cost of living - India. Nice to know there are other choices if Thailand continues to be anti-expat.

[Jingthing]

Burma is not an alternative for expat retirees. Period. The info about Vietnam not having retirement visas is not news.

[Naam]

Looks like a lot of alternatives to Thailand. I was reading a price index comparison on numero.com and it seems most of the alternatives mentioned are really close in total cost of livng. Only one area not mentioned in your list showed a serious lower cost of living - India. Nice to know there are other choices if Thailand continues to be anti-expat.

no retiree visas for India.

[Lancelot]

US: being from there, I thought I would add this to the mix, as other posters have commented on it. You can live fairly cheap there. I did the RV thing for about a year. But got burned out on the whole thing. Dealing with sewer hoses, constant breakdowns, and loud neighbors got old. BUT, there is some really cheap real estate now. We almost bought a place in Las Vegas, but the weather is unbearable in the summers. You either have to leave, or just stay inside all day...and the winters are pretty cold...

I've considered that too, returning to the US, maybe invest in some real estate and split my time between there and abroad.

Two buddies have visited Columbia and liked it. Thats another possibility for my SA tour

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

This is an interesting comparison of countries of your choice. May help in making a decision.

My research leads me to believe that Uruguay is the best alternate to LOS.

http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

[craigt3365]

I'm not sure Columbia would be near the the top of my list, though I would love to visit. After touring most of CA and SA, I ruled all out except Argentina, Chile and Uruguay. Uruguay is really beautiful. We loved it there...except Montevideo...not a nice, nor safe, town. But on the coast north, it is awesome....and expensive. But really nice.

Great link for prosperity.com. Thanks!!!!!!

[Tejas]

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts: Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here.

Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each.

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$?

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion). NEED RETIREMENT VISA POLICY

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

[daxbr]

Never been there but how about Turkey?

Local discussion board here:

http://www.turkishliving.com/forums/

[LaoPo]

oops! if forgot to mention a phantastic place for retirees:

Königswusterhausen, Germany

Königs Wusterhausen, Dahme-Spreewald, Brandenburg ?

Why ?

LaoPo

[LA Don]

Prosperity link is nice. A different flavor than the index at http://www.numbeo.com. Now I have two pretty good indices. Soon I will be in information overload -wait - I think I am already there.

[Tejas]

Never been there but how about Turkey?

Local discussion board here:

http://www.turkishliving.com/forums/

About the posters stating Germany is a good alternative..........no.....too expensive for the income range we are talking about. Switzerland is also good $$$$$$$$$$

Turkey.......good idea. The people are friendly, food great..........some islands offshore would be great to retire on........but I am no expert. I will add it to the list and see if we can get somebody to talk about it.

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts: Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here.

Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each.

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$?

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion). NEED RETIREMENT VISA POLICY

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

[canadiancat]

Eastbourne

Thanks for all the stupid, spam replies.........now, if any person with a brain would like to answer the questions, please do. Thanks.

Don't be so <deleted> touchy, you asked for alternative destinations and you got them, Eastbourne is a very popular retirement destination.

If you don't want an answer, then don't ask the question. Can I respectfully suggest that you calm down.

OK..........I am calm. I am simply sick and tired of the spam that comes out each time some politically incorrect topic is put online.......here, politically incorrect means anything that assumes Thailand is not great.

Carib..........thanks for the answer..........can you focus on some cities?

Actually, the topic title should be amended but to do so would make it too long. That is why I listed the countries and places that I am hoping people will focus on in the first post.

Yes, there are expat retirement possibilities worldwide. But the ones on the list seem viable for most expats currently living in Thailand.

Some, as you can see, are in Southeast Asia. A few are not.

Personally I am particularly interested in the cities that I listed for Vietnam, Philippines, and Cambodia.

Can we all calm down and start over. Again, this is not about all expat alternatives. It is about the few alternatives listed in the first post.

If you want to talk about all alternatives, please start another post.

Thank you for your positive input.

[Tejas]

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts: Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here.

Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each.

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$?

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion). NEED RETIREMENT VISA POLICY

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

[ravip]

May I suggest Sri Lanka?

Edited April 21, 2010 by ravip

[chickencurry]

A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia? MM2H is a very good visa system (if you can afford it). 10 year renewable visa - you only need to go to Immigration every 10 years, slight improvement on 90 days here. The visa can be renewed every 10 years on the same terms that you went in on.

I also like the fact that, whilst they ask you take out medical insurance, if you are unable to do so all you need to do is a get refusal letter from an insurance company, and they accept that.

You can buy property freehold as a foreigner but currently upwards of RM 500,000 (5 million baht equiv). There are rumours that this might change (downwards). Rental prices are not too bad either outside of KL and Penang island.

It's English speaking, the food's great - what else do you need?

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

May I suggest Sri Lanka?

If a foreigner wants to buy property in Sri Lanka, no problem you can although the tax and charges will be 109% of the property price. You can lease it for 99 years and only pay 7% tax.

[Tejas]

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts (see Malaysia): Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here.

Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each. One poster just added: A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia? MM2H is a very good visa system (if you can afford it). 10 year renewable visa - you only need to go to Immigration every 10 years, slight improvement on 90 days here. The visa can be renewed every 10 years on the same terms that you went in on. I also like the fact that, whilst they ask you take out medical insurance, if you are unable to do so all you need to do is a get refusal letter from an insurance company, and they accept that. You can buy property freehold as a foreigner but currently upwards of RM 500,000 (5 million baht equiv). There are rumours that this might change (downwards). Rental prices are not too bad either outside of KL and Penang island. It's English speaking, the food's great.

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$?

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion). NEED RETIREMENT VISA POLICY

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

[Kaptainstingray]

Eastbourne

Thanks for all the stupid, spam replies.........now, if any person with a brain would like to answer the questions, please do. Thanks.

WELL

AS a Bloody foreigner in my own country

5,000,000 bloody <deleted> muslims and other social security ponces cant be wrong

Head for England...free housing...free medical...free money

Can you really thik of anywhere better

Thank you Tony B Liar and the Liebour Party

[Tejas]

Nonsense post aside...............

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts (see Malaysia): Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here.

Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each. One poster just added: A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia? MM2H is a very good visa system (if you can afford it). 10 year renewable visa - you only need to go to Immigration every 10 years, slight improvement on 90 days here. The visa can be renewed every 10 years on the same terms that you went in on. I also like the fact that, whilst they ask you take out medical insurance, if you are unable to do so all you need to do is a get refusal letter from an insurance company, and they accept that. You can buy property freehold as a foreigner but currently upwards of RM 500,000 (5 million baht equiv). There are rumours that this might change (downwards). Rental prices are not too bad either outside of KL and Penang island. It's English speaking, the food's great.

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$?

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion). NEED RETIREMENT VISA POLICY

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

[chickencurry]

If a foreigner wants to buy property in Sri Lanka, no problem you can although the tax and charges will be 109% of the property price. You can lease it for 99 years and only pay 7% tax.

What a great deal eh... Pay double what a local would and they will take it back after 99 years..

The chances of anyone living 99 years after they have bought a house is extremely slim I would think - and, realistically, how long do people stay in their property - 10 years? 5 years?

I'm sure there's a lot of worse places than Sri Lanka. The food is fabulous - but me, I'm off to Penang soon

[chickencurry]

The chances of anyone living 99 years after they have bought a house is extremely slim I would think - and, realistically, how long do people stay in their property - 10 years? 5 years?

I wouldnt invest a penny for a leasehold with such ridiculous rules..also have you ever heard of OFFSPRING????

Ha ha. Offspring - nope haven't got any of them. I'm spending all of it. As you know, you cannot take it with you.

Anyhow, as mentioned, I'm moving to Penang soon and I shall be buying Freehold this time.

[PattayaParent]

Update on the visa situation for VN.

I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa unless you are there for work or an investor.

Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually.

If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal.

This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this.

Edit: I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$?

As I had suspected the information provided by the Immigration Officer was not entirely correct.

I have been put in touch with a foriegner who has a 5 year residence visa for Viet Nam by marriage and it was issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, not Immigration.

So on my return in July I will inquire at MoFA and provide an update.

[HaiSoh]

Naam, I've been in Cazzoduro and Figastretta, ahhhh, so many memories!

Thanks to both of you You made my day !

Ciao

[Tejas]

Naam, I've been in Cazzoduro and Figastretta, ahhhh, so many memories!

Thanks to both of you You made my day !

Ciao

Nonsense post aside...............

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts (more information forthcoming on Vietnam's visa rules): Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here.

Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each. One poster just added: A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia? MM2H is a very good visa system (if you can afford it). 10 year renewable visa - you only need to go to Immigration every 10 years, slight improvement on 90 days here. The visa can be renewed every 10 years on the same terms that you went in on. I also like the fact that, whilst they ask you take out medical insurance, if you are unable to do so all you need to do is a get refusal letter from an insurance company, and they accept that. You can buy property freehold as a foreigner but currently upwards of RM 500,000 (5 million baht equiv). There are rumours that this might change (downwards). Rental prices are not too bad either outside of KL and Penang island. It's English speaking, the food's great.

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$?

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion). NEED RETIREMENT VISA POLICY

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

[consnabit]

As Thailand continues to deteriorate , I too am looking elsewhere, even though I have a large investment in my new Isaan house.

In the last three years I have traveled extensively in SE Asia and covered nearly all alternative places you have listed. My observations follow.

Ist Alternative

Philippines, why ? cost of living same as T, gals, same as T but speak English. health care, excellent world class in Manila, Ok in Cebu as well.

Favorite places, Dumaguette , Bantanyan Island, Forget that cesspool Angeles.

Maylasia, Georgetown only for me and no ta lot to do. Good food and pretty but dull.

Cambodia, PP just nasty, Sihonookville, beach bun paradise, nice bunch of expats and fine little brown girls. Too remote for me.

Siem reap. Nothing but the ruins.

lao, a backwater with no facilities

Vietnam, Ah, 2nd choice. A lot to contend with but beautiful and friendly. Many Many choices. Delat, my favorite. Hochimin, a nightmare, Hanoi, has it all.

If you have specific questions fire away