Democrat MPs Angry Over Suthep's Soft Handling Of Red-Shirts

[BKKer2010]

I believe strongly the government, in an option to end this chaos, would like to see the Reds move into one of the banned areas. This would let the government appear as the non-aggressor while also preventing the destruction of private property in this tourist area.

One way or another, the government needs to act and hopefully they will if they get a court ruling. Even if they gamble this will break up at the latest before Songran ,,, they are simply encouraging more mob mentality tactics like this that almost always end in violence.

I don't care what people are protesting for or against, the government has a duty to make sure the law is enforced. It was sickening to see these people spilling blood on the feet of police officers and in any other democratic society these folks would have been hauled away for assault on a police officer. Regardless if you like the law or current leaders, there has to be consensus that you you cannot disrespect laws and police and expect no consequences.

[Jingthing]

Agreed, the reds are a dark cloud over Thailand. How can they be stopped before it is too late?

[geriatrickid]

You state facts like "more have opted out than ever before" and while a few HAVE opted out (mostly in BKK) most have not.

You speak of the 5 year Trend and fail to note that most of the 5 years were under TRT and PPP rule.

The RECENT increase in funding through the Democrats is new and we have yet to see how well it works but the budget is there for it.

I am not in Phuket but when I was the medical services were pathetic --- that was under Thaksin's 30 baht scheme that was not changed after the coup.

Feel free to try and discredit my views but what you have posted surely doesn't

BTW Squatting at Government house only made the PM shift to another building. You may be right that it amounts to insurrection but only if the COURTS say so, until then it is just your opinion.

Playing with words again. I will make it easier for you. Please tell me what programs have received the funding and how there has been an increase, i.e. this budget compared to last year and the previous year.

Or are you just going to backpedal and say the recent increase will deliver these benefit?

You say most hospitals have not opted out. Try and access a good hospital under the free medical scheme. You live in Chiang mai. Please give me the name of the 3 best hospitals and tell me how many of them encourage patients under the government paid healthcare program.

Please give me an indication of what all these great services are and tell me when they were rolled out.

Here's a relaity check. Thailand does not have the funds to pay for the social programs because the money is gobbled up by the military budget and the skimming.

[Nuchanart]

First of all - I must completely agree that what happened in 2008 with respect to the PAD demonstrations - and the weak government response - definitely set a horrible precedent. At the time, that was my primary reaction to government reaction: "Does the Government realize that they just set Thailand up for endless repetitions of political expression via mob rule?".

So - those chickens have now come home to roost.

The Red Shirt supporters on this board always seem to think that all the Red Shirt opponents support the Yellow Shirt extremists. Well, at least for me, that is not the case. I oppose all the anarchists that want to influence politics via mob rule.

How anyone can defend the current hostage-taking of the city center in a capital city is absolutely beyond me. All over the world, peaceful protest groups have carried out marches in national capitals, to express political grievances. This is accepted, and I support that right.

But - those marches - and there have been hundreds - very many of which were much, MUCH larger than this Red-Shirt circus - have made their statement, and then gone home. They have not pursued a sustained campaign of anarchy - mob rule on the streets.

No matter what, the Thai Government must not give in to this mob - to do so would virtually guarantee a future full of disaffected parties expressing their unhappiness by shutting down the city. A mistake was made in dealing leniently with the PAD protesters - and that mistake must not be repeated.

There is no argument whatsoever that can justify the mob intimidation now unfolding on the streets. Non-violent so far - but still intimidation.

The Red attitude is ludicrous: "Yes, Bangkok, you are being disrupted, but it is not the fault of the Red Shirts - it is the fault of the Government". Who are they kidding? Where do you draw the line?

"Yes, we robbed and pillaged your store - but it is not our fault - it is the government's fault"

"Yes, we lynched ten policeman - hanging them from lamp posts - but it is not our fault - it is the government's fault"

This is absurd reasoning.

I was mildly sympathetic to the Red Shirts three weeks ago - my wife is from Mukdahan, which I have visited many times - and I recognize the feeling of disenfranchisement felt by those inhabitants of the Thai hinterlands.

But - after watching the stunts, and the arrogance of the Red leaders - and after hearing Thaksin's encouragement of mob rule - I have reached the conclusion that this movement needs to be punished severely for transgressing basic laws of conduct. Mob rule is "law of the jungle" - and is ugly and unpredictable.

Unfortunately for the Reds, in a stand-off, the status quo always wins. The Thai government isn't going to let 0.1% of its population tell it what to do. So - this thing is going to end badly - and the responsibility is going to be squarely on the shoulders of perhaps 20-50 ringleaders of the Red Shirt movement.

Agree with you total.

However, please allows the YELLOW to walk free as they are BANGKOK ELITE.

[whatawonderfulday]

Well - everyone is as miserable as he chooses to be... My Thai wife and all her friends and neighbours in the area have got a similar positive attitude and I don't see any hatred against the Reds. I don't see anyone's life really being made miserable because of the Red Shirts.

Believe it or not, I think your opinion is massively geographically challenged. I bet you all the business owners in the surrounding areas are having kittens right now about their staff from outside the area being prevented from approaching the area. Many staff workers people use public busses or drive their own cars. To think that people's lives are not being made miserable by a rally cutting of access to the heart of a city during the first working day of the week is outright naive.

Suthep's inability to handle the situation is again landing us with another Pattaya ASIAN conference – it's time for him to go and this to end.

According to him, he would be happy in a concentration camp. I just dislike when it appears people make up personal stories to support a cause and avoid simply saying what they are ... in this case a Red Shirt supporter.

Never mind about the impact it has on businesses by these bunch of unkempt morons. How many people have lost their lives by not being able to get vital medical treatment in time owing to the reds being allowed by this governement to block any road / area they wish and of course able to have electricity ? Tell that to the relatives of the dead !

Edited April 5, 2010 by whatawonderfulday

[Nuchanart]

'In a real democratic society, the democrats would enact laws to protect the rights of protesters and demand equal rights for all citizens. Here, the Democrats protect the rights of the rich and keep the poor in their place--servants to the rich! We have yet to see whether the Democrats will resort to violence to protect the pocketbooks of their supporters...however, the handwriting is on the wall!'

What a BS!

There are always rich and poor people even in democratic countries :-)

Social success is mainly based on education and neither Taksin or other governments invested in this.

If this chaos will continue, you will see a big reduction of investments in Thailand and this primarily will hit the "servants to the rich" as you name it. Don't be so stupid to believe in the Red Shirt rhetoric, which sounds like Communist but is in fact closer the Nazi propaganda! I am sick of it, when watching the D Station. It makes me fear!

Total agree that there are always rich and poor people even in democratic countries.

But you forgot to mention the size of the gap.

[BKKer2010]

'In a real democratic society, the democrats would enact laws to protect the rights of protesters and demand equal rights for all citizens. Here, the Democrats protect the rights of the rich and keep the poor in their place--servants to the rich! We have yet to see whether the Democrats will resort to violence to protect the pocketbooks of their supporters...however, the handwriting is on the wall!'

What a BS!

There are always rich and poor people even in democratic countries :-)

Social success is mainly based on education and neither Taksin or other governments invested in this.

If this chaos will continue, you will see a big reduction of investments in Thailand and this primarily will hit the "servants to the rich" as you name it. Don't be so stupid to believe in the Red Shirt rhetoric, which sounds like Communist but is in fact closer the Nazi propaganda! I am sick of it, when watching the D Station. It makes me fear!

Total agree that there are always rich and poor people even in democratic countries.

But you forgot to mention the size of the gap.

Top 1 Percent Control 42 Percent of Financial Wealth in the U.S (top 5% control

69%)

I believe it is the top 20% that control about the same percentage here in Thailand.

Oh yea to go to the other end of the scale in the US ... the bottom 80% of people control 7% of the wealth.

Edited April 5, 2010 by BKKer2010

[moresomekl]

Seems like the red shirts have finally found a way to get the attention of the Bangkok elite--hit them in their pocketbooks!. Funny how serious the tone has become since the protest has settled in the center of capitalism in Bangkok. If this is not a class struggle, why has the outrage about the protests gone up several notches since their occupation of the Rachaprasong area? At the same time, the behaviour of the protesters has been non-violent--a real democratic nation would listen to the needs of the protesters(not necessarily the demands) and enact laws to give the poor opportunities to gain economic success(i.e. buy a home, have quality health care, earn a decent living, etc.)

In a real democratic society, the democrats would enact laws to protect the rights of protesters and demand equal rights for all citizens. Here, the Democrats protect the rights of the rich and keep the poor in their place--servants to the rich! We have yet to see whether the Democrats will resort to violence to protect the pocketbooks of their supporters...however, the handwriting is on the wall!

The Bangkok elite?

You mean the ultra rich owners and workers in the Amarin food court, Paragon food court, the cleaners in Central, the sales staff in Louis Vuitton all of whom earn the massive wages of less than 20,000b? You must mean all those upcountry folk selling wares to tourists on consignment in Naraiphund, CentralWorld, Amarin, Paragon. Yes, that will learn 'em big time.

THe Bangkok 'elite' you are hitting.

Srivikorn family - former TRT Minister and banned 111 member Pimol Srivikorn and extended family - owners of Intercon, Gaysorn, Amarin, Holiday Inn and the building I am guessing tallforeigner lives in (guessing building behind President Arcade) - I am guessing that losing something like (estimated) 30-50MB in turnover per day at Gaysorn and Amarin while losing a further few mill daily in Intercon and Holiday Inn for the next year - they were NOT consulted ahead of time about this - my guess is they aren't going to stay PT if they even still are.

Chiratiwat family - majority owners of CentralWorld (CPN), minority shareholders of Big C, sole owners of Central Chitlom - usually non political this impact hits their pocket big time, and like the bombs set outside CentralWorld the first 4 months after Thaksin was ousted in the coup, may continue to damage their business. At a guess, including Dept store turnover, hotel, food court revenue, all plaza sales, are losing something like 200MB a day.

Owner of the land of Paragon and major financing shareholders - a person we can't mention who is probably the 2nd most loved in Thailand; BBL; variety of families as key tenants including some former TRT families but mostly non political except for some of the Lamsam family who are partly strongly Democrat (Nualpan) - but they are only owning Hermes now I think, and not Paragon. Majority of Thai owners of the importing companies many are 'no names' in so far as everyone knows who they are, but they are staunchly non political and aren't in the public eye. Thai fashion designers mostly anti TRT simply because TRT ruined their industry with Bangkok fashion city; however they aren't pro Dem. Losses something like 500mb a day.

Owner of Siam Square - Chulalongkorn university subcontracting to tons and tons of small SME businesses just like the food courts, the THai crafts, the jewelery, etc. Platinum Mall and Pratunam area, the same - tons and tons of SMEs.

Maneeya, Hyatt, Four Seasons - ok there are some pretty wealthy owners, but hardly any who deserve to be financially punished for daring to do business in that area.

Total losses in turnover well over 1b baht, with many costs still being incurred. This revenue, as with the bombs in Ratchaprasong in 2006, will likely not be recovered; sales drops are not like a bouncing ball in zero gravity (where they drop then rebound to make up the loss entirely); rather the tourists, the Thais who might have spent, they continue spending as they would, and this 2 day period so far is lost forever. lest we think it won't touch the working class, bonuses, numbers of staff, staff wages, etc - these are all a direct function of turnover. There are probably more staff in the retail areas that are closed now than are actually on the street (this morning, Red shirts there were less than 10,000 visible from CW to Gaysorn and down to Big C, but possibly more on Petchburi).

Ratchadamnoen and Sanarm Luang are traditional areas for protest, and in some way, residents there have ways of getting around it; there is a very big difference in coming to the heart of the city that is a major engine for country tax revenues, employment and tourism. To ask for......basically to ask for an immediate election and the subsequent right to fiddle a constitution unilaterally to allow a convicted fugitive amnesty - because we already know that they aren't talking policy or economic reform (as the red shirts don't have any policies on this stuff).

'At the same time, the behaviour of the protesters has been non-violent--a real democratic nation would listen to the needs of the protesters(not necessarily the demands) and enact laws to give the poor opportunities to gain economic success(i.e. buy a home, have quality health care, earn a decent living, etc.)'

HEAR HEAR. I actually think that the key policies of free education, incentives and improvements in borrowing, improvements in healthcare - these are all worthwhile steps that successive govts have done - more could be done.

However this is perhaps not the best way to ask for change - to block a road of retail and hospitality and a hospital to ask for this stuff when some of it is already happening - and anyway at no point has this been, as you note, the demands of the protest - AND IT FRIGGING SHOULD BE ONE OF THE POINTS ON THE AGENDA. Clear single minded agreement on what the rural folk need. The reason of course why this doesn't ever occur, is that the rural poor will continue to elect jao pors until a genuine symbol and leader who represents them is able to transcend the local power of the Sanoh/Newin/Banharn/local baron voting attractions. And PT have no policy on this, TRT had no real policy on it - the people who really know are usually not within the room when conversations take place; instead....CP is.

'In a real democratic society, the democrats would enact laws to protect the rights of protesters and demand equal rights for all citizens. Here, the Democrats protect the rights of the rich and keep the poor in their place--servants to the rich! We have yet to see whether the Democrats will resort to violence to protect the pocketbooks of their supporters...however, the handwriting is on the wall!'

Oh ho.....yah weng rao na. Hmmm......I think the words you are looking for is in a real democratic society, no party would dare to ask for votes with a policy to unilaterally change the constitution to the wishes of their largest funding source, but rather would be looking for ways to develop the constitution in a non partisan manner for the benefit of all Thais. I have no idea which specific policies you are referring to that the Democrats are using the protect the rights of the rich - I would be delighted to learn more on this fascinating subject, perhaps with specific reference to that billionaire 'prai' living abroad.

They have every right to protest. Good for them. But this passive aggressive attempt to grind the city to a halt while still being able to stay peaceful (which is a victory in itself, given what occurred a year ago, when the leaders couldn't control their mob) needs to say something without also screwing over the entire country/city.

Just as the yellow shirts should be punished for their transgressions, so should this mob.

Well well ,force has some political risks and would likely cause damage to property . Would the governement consider giving the reds free shopping vouchers instead ?

Nice post anyway

[jdinasia]

You state facts like "more have opted out than ever before" and while a few HAVE opted out (mostly in BKK) most have not.

You speak of the 5 year Trend and fail to note that most of the 5 years were under TRT and PPP rule.

The RECENT increase in funding through the Democrats is new and we have yet to see how well it works but the budget is there for it.

I am not in Phuket but when I was the medical services were pathetic --- that was under Thaksin's 30 baht scheme that was not changed after the coup.

Feel free to try and discredit my views but what you have posted surely doesn't

BTW Squatting at Government house only made the PM shift to another building. You may be right that it amounts to insurrection but only if the COURTS say so, until then it is just your opinion.

Playing with words again. I will make it easier for you. Please tell me what programs have received the funding and how there has been an increase, i.e. this budget compared to last year and the previous year.

Or are you just going to backpedal and say the recent increase will deliver these benefit?

You say most hospitals have not opted out. Try and access a good hospital under the free medical scheme. You live in Chiang mai. Please give me the name of the 3 best hospitals and tell me how many of them encourage patients under the government paid healthcare program.

Please give me an indication of what all these great services are and tell me when they were rolled out.

Here's a relaity check. Thailand does not have the funds to pay for the social programs because the money is gobbled up by the military budget and the skimming.

Hmmmm the military budget vs GDP for Thailand is in line with that of other regional countries so that kills that sqwaucking point. Skimming -- yeppers it happens and more in Thailand than in many other places.

I have only been to one Government hospital in Chiang Mai (Suan Doc) and it has everything that any modern hospital has. It is a primary care facility that is in the government scheme. I will ask one of the nurses that works with me for the names of 2 others but she has had family members admitted under the government program in the last 2 weeks. Both have had surgery and both have paid nothing.

I'll let you do the rest of your research yourself but here's a hint .. there is a thread about it on TV already.

[Wolfie]

Playing with words again. I will make it easier for you. Please tell me what programs have received the funding and how there has been an increase, i.e. this budget compared to last year and the previous year.

Or are you just going to backpedal and say the recent increase will deliver these benefit?

You say most hospitals have not opted out. Try and access a good hospital under the free medical scheme. You live in Chiang mai. Please give me the name of the 3 best hospitals and tell me how many of them encourage patients under the government paid healthcare program.

Please give me an indication of what all these great services are and tell me when they were rolled out.

Here's a relaity check. Thailand does not have the funds to pay for the social programs because the money is gobbled up by the military budget and the skimming.

Here is a reality check for you then... How many Issan farmers pay taxes? How many rural reds pay any taxes (even the leaders avoid paying their taxes - right?) and the few who do actually pay taxes are quite probably so low on the tax-thresholds that they only contribute a few thousand baht a month to the tax coffers. They demand social welfare, cheap hospitals, free schooling, public roads etc etc but don't pay taxes the same as the 'Bangkok elite' (aka Office workers, Shop workers etc) Where do you think the money comes from to pay for these types of things? Oh that's right, the very people the reds are holding to ransom right now! White collar workers who are paying tax each month from their salaries.

I wont refute the Military budget claim although maybe you would prefer to see the military not funded (nice avatar by the way, which military force is that?) The Skimming isn't any better or worse than it was during the Thaksin regime (altho its my personal opinion it was probably a lot worse during his time but that's just my opinion) or maybe you are of the viewpoint that all of the TTT/PPP/PTP (whatever they are called this week) politicians were all squeaky clean, never corrupt, and all had such high moral and ethical standards.

Thailand does not have the funds to pay for the social programs because the money is gobbled up by corrupt politicians and greedy non-tax payers who want social programs but aint prepared to pay for them You know Abhisit has a strong stance against corruption... he appears to be one of the first politicians who is publically against it... maybe that is why he is so disliked amongst the red politicians, hes closing down their cash-cow... interesting viewpoint, no?

[jdinasia]

'In a real democratic society, the democrats would enact laws to protect the rights of protesters and demand equal rights for all citizens. Here, the Democrats protect the rights of the rich and keep the poor in their place--servants to the rich! We have yet to see whether the Democrats will resort to violence to protect the pocketbooks of their supporters...however, the handwriting is on the wall!'

What a BS!

There are always rich and poor people even in democratic countries :-)

Social success is mainly based on education and neither Taksin or other governments invested in this.

If this chaos will continue, you will see a big reduction of investments in Thailand and this primarily will hit the "servants to the rich" as you name it. Don't be so stupid to believe in the Red Shirt rhetoric, which sounds like Communist but is in fact closer the Nazi propaganda! I am sick of it, when watching the D Station. It makes me fear!

Total agree that there are always rich and poor people even in democratic countries.

But you forgot to mention the size of the gap.

GINI index

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...&rank=51#th

Higher than the US ... lower than the EU

[hammered]

Great and informative post.

Any guess as to how many people cannot go to work and earn $$ due to the mob taking over the streets?

Office workers in the area encouraged to take the day off - they must do something for the day so presumably generate cash - estimate probably something like 10,000 - 50,000 workers not working today as a fairly direct result of encouragement not to come to work (total guess - I don't think anyone knows and I don't work in that area). Centralworld offices has staff approx 10,000 people apparently I have no idea how many are or aren't working today. Total office workers in the area is over 100,000.

Note many weren't gonig to work anyhow, as tomorrow is a holiday. So it is very hard to blame/judge.

In the surruonding area, many people also not working today - because as I have said before many times - the red shirts aren't giving advance notice of their movements, no one knows how to plan. This is a major flaw in the way they operate; the news reporters, the workers, the residents - no one has a clue what they are going to do this afternoon for instance. So no one can plan. I am sure you were aware yesterday that the Police Hospital was pleading as they needed certain things to come in and out - patients, blood etc - rank and file red shirters are ordered (they have a full walkie talkie network, it is cells of groups of 10-50, with one leader, who reports to a leader who controls 20-50 leaders, who reports up the chain) to stop all traffic so they do. Including ambulances etc. At no point was something like toilets considered for instance, hence the request phrased as a threat - open the mall for us to take a dump, or we will take a dump on the sides of your premises.

Retail staff in the area assuming CW, Gaysorn, Amarin, Paragon, Big C, Platinum, Siam Discovery are all closed completely. Guess I would say 20,000-30,000 employees minimum aren't coming to work each day this drags on.

Some of these will lose their wages as they are paid daily/hourly; many will be affected in annual bonuses; business owners will all lose turnover; staff have to share in this loss.

It depends - so far the mob is well behaved. If they decide to act up which seems increasingly unlikely (surprisingly to me, given some of the motorcycle taxis and taxi drivers I know are amping for a fight) then this will be ugly. If they behave, then the effect on the area, may only last a few weeks. Otherwise, it may be months - Centralworld is still recovering from the deathblow of bombs destroying the annual countdown at end of 2006; alleged to have been set on Thaksin's orders (as no one else has motive); after that tourists and locals steered clear of the area and in the meantime, Paragon hit paydirt.

Do we really need a sell out who went and helped Cambodia instead of Thailand? This is the mindset I hear in southern Isaan - some of the red shirts are now saying Buriram people are bad - they are fake red shirts who are 'look nong' Newin. Apparently every bad act that the red shirts ever did was Newin - and Newin is responsible for all corruption in the current govt (because they cannot easily blame Aphisit and Korn who everyone knows are actually personally very clean).

This makes for an interesting split; certainly southern Isaan is getting less and less pro Thaksin...Northern Isaan and the North are going the other way.

I personally think an election sooner rather than later may end up being a huge blow for the red shirt movement. If things stay as they were last election, they will lose. If things have got worse since then, which i suspect they have, then they may not even get as far as they are now. What then?

Hopefully not more in Ratchaprasong. Incidentally, they used to execute people on this corner.

Maybe we'll see an effigy today, that would be right up there with pigs blood mixed with a little human blood poured around the place.

Well argued piece.

Just like to add a couple of things

It is always those at the bottom who suffer. Of the numbers you mention, there are going to be thousands of people losing their pay today and they lost it yesterday. These are meant to be the people the reds are rallying for. There is an irony in that somewhere.

The lower north is also seeing a drift away from Thaksin and the reds right now in a way similar to what you mention in the lower Isaan. I havent a clue what way an election would go if held now but tend to think PTP wopuld prevail. However, the Economist recently did a piece in which they argued TRT had been in decline since 2005 and would probably see that trend continue in the next election.

[vicco]

Tomorrow is a national holiday. Bangkok residents should hold their own counter protest in the streets surrounding Rajasaprong and see how the Reds enjoy being prevented from having freedom of movement. Keep them from wandering off to restaurants and hotels and bathrooms. Make their lives as miserable as they want make the lives of Bangkok residents. If the police won't enforce the laws that have been implemented the Reds will never leave.

What a load of absolute crap!! I live here in the middle of the Red Shirt protest literally under siege from the masses. Is my life miserable?? - Certainly not!

If I go out now I am in the middle of thousands of generally friendly people, lot's of them singing, dancing - it's generally a happy atmosphere. Apart from the noise it's not an unpleasant experience if you don't go out with an attitude or prejudice. Do I care about the luxury shopping mall being closed? No!

Do the average Bangkok people care about the luxury shopping malls to a degree that their life would be miserable once they are closed? Certainly not!

I can still buy food at thousands of little food stalls in the area. If I want to get out of the area I have a working skytrain just in front of my door.

Am I miserable because I cannot use my car now? Certainly not!

Well - everyone is as miserable as he chooses to be... My Thai wife and all her friends and neighbours in the area have got a similar positive attitude and I don't see any hatred against the Reds. I don't see anyone's life really being made miserable because of the Red Shirts.

I enjoy living in Bangkok and not being a Thai so I have chosen to let the Thais solve their own problems and I take a more neutral position, not condemning anyone.

I just wonder why so many TV farangs seem to have such a destructive attitude and seem to have chosen to make their own life miserable. I have chosen not to be miserable and enjoy life in Bangkok with all its conveniences and inconveniences. And since I am living here at the same place since about 10 years I can say that this is not just a temporary mood.

Well said Sir....I have posted some similar statements and been immediately dismissed as a Thaksin apologist....whatever the hel_l that is...I have not read a post from anyone offering an apology for Thaksin... why would anyone do that? Anyway as far as the local farangs are concerned....what do you expect? They were miserable in their own countries...many of them have been miserable in other countries before Thailand....why would they be happy here...they enjoy being miserable and if they are not complaining, they have nothing to say. I have read disgusting things said about Thai people in general and redshirts in particular. I have never come across such intolerant, ignorant nonsense in my life..... There are people on here who post a dozen or more times a day...always the same stuff...anti Thaksin...anti red....zero tolerance for any other opinion other than their own............what a life.. and what is really annoying about it is that their opinion counts for nothing here....regardless of how many times they express it.

They have zero status...zero currency....they really should go somewhere where somebody gives a shit about their opinion...........but where in the world would that be??

[elcent]

and now they bombed the massage parlor from the current commerce minister's father.

One wonders of how many in this gov run a short time hotel.

picture in front of massage parlor Poseidon

-- The Nation

Edited April 5, 2010 by elcent

[steveromagnino]

Total agree that there are always rich and poor people even in democratic countries.

But you forgot to mention the size of the gap.

The size of the gap is close to the same as USA using lorenz curve or GINI index. I don't see them setting up a protest in Rodeo Drive or Wall St.

Under TRT I do not believe it significantly changed. The reasons for slight changes in inequality tend to be only when using an expenditure based model; there are few underlying reasons why the income gap would have decreased under the TRT years or subsequently. Expenditure increased due to easy credit, cash injections via the village funds, subsidised items and overpayment for crop pledging. Also, the golden period was first unlocking the consumer confidence to spend in the first period of TRT up to 2003 and that was also when crop prices were increasing while oil was cheap.

Once oil went up in price and people had data on household debt the reality became clear. The business economy was moving ahead fast, the rural sector less so.

If you knock all of that out, the reality is that Bangkok, the eastern seaboard, some further industrial areas, smaller sattelite cities and tourist hot spots have been progressively developing and increasing productivity irrespective of govt policy - in fact some of the sectors which moved fastest did as a result of govt favouritism (e.g. AIS/Shin) while others did despite zero/little govt involvement in their sector (Naraya, LPN, Precious Shipping et al); the rural sector has increased productivity in specialist industry (reflected by the success of firms such as CP, Betagro, TUF) but the average rice or sugar farmer - the nuts and bolts of the red shirt PT/TRT movement - they have made few significant improvements in productivity other than those based on using restricted resources such as water for a 2nd crop which is not a renewable or sustainable productivity growth - and so therefore one cannot easily comment that one political group is closing the gap, while another is not. The gap flows and ebbs relative to crop prices. Yields per rai people employed per rai etc - that's the data to look at.

The keys to closing the gap for the famers are major reform in the pricing of crops (which the Dems already did, to get rid of subsidies); fairness and transparency in the markets when dealing with middle men (a tough one); training and teaching Thai farmers to operate more effectively; accepting that too many Thais are currently employed in the rural farming sector and thus moving some of them to higher education/skills training to do something else thus improving the overall country productivity; teaching the skills necessary for budgeting and finance to enhance the cost of capital for Thai farmers so they can maintain a lower WACC; and, land reform to make it more possible to put land within the reach of farmers who wish to farm...but only when it is economically viable for them to do so - far too many Isaan farmers are broke because they run subscale inefficient land operations, and don't know how to finance.

But....no more free rides. All the TRT consumption driven growth and relying on crop prices in world markets alone. It is not long term improvement.

Edited April 5, 2010 by steveromagnino

[jdinasia]

Well said Sir....I have posted some similar statements and been immediately dismissed as a Thaksin apologist....whatever the hel_l that is...I have not read a post from anyone offering an apology for Thaksin... why would anyone do that? Anyway as far as the local farangs are concerned....what do you expect? They were miserable in their own countries...many of them have been miserable in other countries before Thailand....why would they be happy here...they enjoy being miserable and if they are not complaining, they have nothing to say. I have read disgusting things said about Thai people in general and redshirts in particular. I have never come across such intolerant, ignorant nonsense in my life..... There are people on here who post a dozen or more times a day...always the same stuff...anti Thaksin...anti red....zero tolerance for any other opinion other than their own............what a life.. and what is really annoying about it is that their opinion counts for nothing here....regardless of how many times they express it.

They have zero status...zero currency....they really should go somewhere where somebody gives a shit about their opinion...........but where in the world would that be??

Pot Kettle Black

[moresomekl]

Tomorrow is a national holiday. Bangkok residents should hold their own counter protest in the streets surrounding Rajasaprong and see how the Reds enjoy being prevented from having freedom of movement. Keep them from wandering off to restaurants and hotels and bathrooms. Make their lives as miserable as they want make the lives of Bangkok residents. If the police won't enforce the laws that have been implemented the Reds will never leave.

What a load of absolute crap!! I live here in the middle of the Red Shirt protest literally under siege from the masses. Is my life miserable?? - Certainly not!

If I go out now I am in the middle of thousands of generally friendly people, lot's of them singing, dancing - it's generally a happy atmosphere. Apart from the noise it's not an unpleasant experience if you don't go out with an attitude or prejudice. Do I care about the luxury shopping mall being closed? No!

Do the average Bangkok people care about the luxury shopping malls to a degree that their life would be miserable once they are closed? Certainly not!

I can still buy food at thousands of little food stalls in the area. If I want to get out of the area I have a working skytrain just in front of my door.

Am I miserable because I cannot use my car now? Certainly not!

Well - everyone is as miserable as he chooses to be... My Thai wife and all her friends and neighbours in the area have got a similar positive attitude and I don't see any hatred against the Reds. I don't see anyone's life really being made miserable because of the Red Shirts.

I enjoy living in Bangkok and not being a Thai so I have chosen to let the Thais solve their own problems and I take a more neutral position, not condemning anyone.

I just wonder why so many TV farangs seem to have such a destructive attitude and seem to have chosen to make their own life miserable. I have chosen not to be miserable and enjoy life in Bangkok with all its conveniences and inconveniences. And since I am living here at the same place since about 10 years I can say that this is not just a temporary mood.

Good post . There is no hate in the streets against the red shirts , something which also explains the restrain of the governement .

Hitting poor people is very un-thai anyway .

Here in TV sounds somewhat different , instead of discussing solutions , many folks choose to respond by veilled or not so veilled insults when they disagree with another poster .

[pimay11]

and now they bombed the massage parlor from the current commerce minister's father.

One wonders of how many in this gov run a short time hotel.

Here in Isaan it is called a "Love Hotel" or Bungalow :-).

[jdinasia]

The size of the gap is almost exactly the same as USA. I don't see them setting up a protest in Rodeo Drive or Wall St.

I THINK (note I am not absolutely sure) that the GINI index for Thailand was worse for Thailand under TRT and PPP and that it increased under the Dems is that Thailand was not hit as hard and recovered somewhat faster under Korn.

[jdinasia]

Good post . There is no hate in the streets against the red shirts , something which also explains the restrain of the governement .

Hitting poor people is very un-thai anyway .

Here in TV sounds somewhat different , instead of discussing solutions , many folks choose to respond by veilled or not so veilled insults when they disagree with another poster .

Ummmmm "There is no hate in the streets against the Red Shirts" just is NOT an accurate statement.

[BKKer2010]

Tomorrow is a national holiday. Bangkok residents should hold their own counter protest in the streets surrounding Rajasaprong and see how the Reds enjoy being prevented from having freedom of movement. Keep them from wandering off to restaurants and hotels and bathrooms. Make their lives as miserable as they want make the lives of Bangkok residents. If the police won't enforce the laws that have been implemented the Reds will never leave.

What a load of absolute crap!! I live here in the middle of the Red Shirt protest literally under siege from the masses. Is my life miserable?? - Certainly not!

If I go out now I am in the middle of thousands of generally friendly people, lot's of them singing, dancing - it's generally a happy atmosphere. Apart from the noise it's not an unpleasant experience if you don't go out with an attitude or prejudice. Do I care about the luxury shopping mall being closed? No!

Do the average Bangkok people care about the luxury shopping malls to a degree that their life would be miserable once they are closed? Certainly not!

I can still buy food at thousands of little food stalls in the area. If I want to get out of the area I have a working skytrain just in front of my door.

Am I miserable because I cannot use my car now? Certainly not!

Well - everyone is as miserable as he chooses to be... My Thai wife and all her friends and neighbours in the area have got a similar positive attitude and I don't see any hatred against the Reds. I don't see anyone's life really being made miserable because of the Red Shirts.

I enjoy living in Bangkok and not being a Thai so I have chosen to let the Thais solve their own problems and I take a more neutral position, not condemning anyone.

I just wonder why so many TV farangs seem to have such a destructive attitude and seem to have chosen to make their own life miserable. I have chosen not to be miserable and enjoy life in Bangkok with all its conveniences and inconveniences. And since I am living here at the same place since about 10 years I can say that this is not just a temporary mood.

Good post . There is no hate in the streets against the red shirts , something which also explains the restrain of the governement .

Hitting poor people is very un-thai anyway .

Here in TV sounds somewhat different , instead of discussing solutions , many folks choose to respond by veilled or not so veilled insults when they disagree with another poster .

No hate in the street??? I seem to recall another view when the Pinks scooped up the Red Shirt at their rally.

[moresomekl]

and now they bombed the massage parlor from the current commerce minister's father.

One wonders of how many in this gov run a short time hotel.

picture in front of massage parlor Poseidon

-- The Nation

Wow wow that car got a nice body massage

[LevelHead]

The blocking of the interesection is not shutting down any business.

There are roads around the demonstration.

Nobody is stopping people working or shopping, it is the owners of the places who have shut them down of their own free will.

Bangkok has many roads, nowhere is blocked access. On foot anywhere can be accessed. By car a small diversion is needed.

More and more are supporting the Reds now, at night when its cool and people finish work the Reds numbers swell. Thats good news.

Many people support the Reds and demanded House Dissolution now. They also questioned why, with staggering evidence far in excess of what was used to disband TRT and PPP, that the EC still muddles on and delays for months the case of dissolution against the Democrats that is pending.

[G54]

Tomorrow is a national holiday. Bangkok residents should hold their own counter protest in the streets surrounding Rajasaprong and see how the Reds enjoy being prevented from having freedom of movement. Keep them from wandering off to restaurants and hotels and bathrooms. Make their lives as miserable as they want make the lives of Bangkok residents. If the police won't enforce the laws that have been implemented the Reds will never leave.

What a load of absolute crap!! I live here in the middle of the Red Shirt protest literally under siege from the masses. Is my life miserable?? - Certainly not!

If I go out now I am in the middle of thousands of generally friendly people, lot's of them singing, dancing - it's generally a happy atmosphere. Apart from the noise it's not an unpleasant experience if you don't go out with an attitude or prejudice. Do I care about the luxury shopping mall being closed? No!

Do the average Bangkok people care about the luxury shopping malls to a degree that their life would be miserable once they are closed? Certainly not!

I can still buy food at thousands of little food stalls in the area. If I want to get out of the area I have a working skytrain just in front of my door.

Am I miserable because I cannot use my car now? Certainly not!

Well - everyone is as miserable as he chooses to be... My Thai wife and all her friends and neighbours in the area have got a similar positive attitude and I don't see any hatred against the Reds. I don't see anyone's life really being made miserable because of the Red Shirts.

I enjoy living in Bangkok and not being a Thai so I have chosen to let the Thais solve their own problems and I take a more neutral position, not condemning anyone.

I just wonder why so many TV farangs seem to have such a destructive attitude and seem to have chosen to make their own life miserable. I have chosen not to be miserable and enjoy life in Bangkok with all its conveniences and inconveniences. And since I am living here at the same place since about 10 years I can say that this is not just a temporary mood.

I like that. A post from someone who is actually in the middle of it and not hundreds or thousands of miles away and spouting rhetoric.

Keep that happy attitude and well done for the post.

[moresomekl]

Good post . There is no hate in the streets against the red shirts , something which also explains the restrain of the governement .

Hitting poor people is very un-thai anyway .

Here in TV sounds somewhat different , instead of discussing solutions , many folks choose to respond by veilled or not so veilled insults when they disagree with another poster .

Ummmmm "There is no hate in the streets against the Red Shirts" just is NOT an accurate statement.

I did not see any from the general population

[BKKer2010]

Good post . There is no hate in the streets against the red shirts , something which also explains the restrain of the governement .

Hitting poor people is very un-thai anyway .

Here in TV sounds somewhat different , instead of discussing solutions , many folks choose to respond by veilled or not so veilled insults when they disagree with another poster .

Ummmmm "There is no hate in the streets against the Red Shirts" just is NOT an accurate statement.

They seem to use whatever line fits in each of their newest irrelevant posts. As one of them said a minute ago ... who really cares what a farang in BKK has to say or think ... but now this farang who basically says he would be in a good mood in a concentration camp is relevant

[pimay11]

The blocking of the interesection is not shutting down any business.

There are roads around the demonstration.

Nobody is stopping people working or shopping, it is the owners of the places who have shut them down of their own free will.

Bangkok has many roads, nowhere is blocked access. On foot anywhere can be accessed. By car a small diversion is needed.

More and more are supporting the Reds now, at night when its cool and people finish work the Reds numbers swell. Thats good news.

Many people support the Reds and demanded House Dissolution now. They also questioned why, with staggering evidence far in excess of what was used to disband TRT and PPP, that the EC still muddles on and delays for months the case of dissolution against the Democrats that is pending.

Get real.

[moresomekl]

Tomorrow is a national holiday. Bangkok residents should hold their own counter protest in the streets surrounding Rajasaprong and see how the Reds enjoy being prevented from having freedom of movement. Keep them from wandering off to restaurants and hotels and bathrooms. Make their lives as miserable as they want make the lives of Bangkok residents. If the police won't enforce the laws that have been implemented the Reds will never leave.

What a load of absolute crap!! I live here in the middle of the Red Shirt protest literally under siege from the masses. Is my life miserable?? - Certainly not!

If I go out now I am in the middle of thousands of generally friendly people, lot's of them singing, dancing - it's generally a happy atmosphere. Apart from the noise it's not an unpleasant experience if you don't go out with an attitude or prejudice. Do I care about the luxury shopping mall being closed? No!

Do the average Bangkok people care about the luxury shopping malls to a degree that their life would be miserable once they are closed? Certainly not!

I can still buy food at thousands of little food stalls in the area. If I want to get out of the area I have a working skytrain just in front of my door.

Am I miserable because I cannot use my car now? Certainly not!

Well - everyone is as miserable as he chooses to be... My Thai wife and all her friends and neighbours in the area have got a similar positive attitude and I don't see any hatred against the Reds. I don't see anyone's life really being made miserable because of the Red Shirts.

I enjoy living in Bangkok and not being a Thai so I have chosen to let the Thais solve their own problems and I take a more neutral position, not condemning anyone.

I just wonder why so many TV farangs seem to have such a destructive attitude and seem to have chosen to make their own life miserable. I have chosen not to be miserable and enjoy life in Bangkok with all its conveniences and inconveniences. And since I am living here at the same place since about 10 years I can say that this is not just a temporary mood.

Good post . There is no hate in the streets against the red shirts , something which also explains the restrain of the governement .

Hitting poor people is very un-thai anyway .

Here in TV sounds somewhat different , instead of discussing solutions , many folks choose to respond by veilled or not so veilled insults when they disagree with another poster .

No hate in the street??? I seem to recall another view when the Pinks scooped up the Red Shirt at their rally.

Am talking about the general population , not partisan maniacs , of whichever color

[LevelHead]

No hate in the street??? I seem to recall another view when the Pinks scooped up the Red Shirt at their rally.

Yes, the Yellow shirt PAD see themselves as above the law, they answer to nobody. This is why when the very same people put on Pink shirts they were violent again beating up innocent single red shirts who were just watching.

Sadly the rule of law and the judiciary appears to be under the control of an "elite" who allow their "friends" to get away with anything they do, whilst coming down hard on their "enemies". Surely it is not good for the judiciary to be seen to be under the control of, an influenced by, the elite.

However, it is said that following the coup many top judges and judiciary positons were replaced by the CNS leaders and coup government, and so this is only to be expected until Democracy returns and the coup appointed people are replaced by a democratically elected government.

New elections are needed. Whilst the present coalition can claim to be "legal" and "legitmate" everybody know they only came to power after the judiciary dissolved the PPP and then "elite" influence behind the scenes made up this new "coalition". The government whilst claiming to be "legitimate" cannot claim to be elected by the people, as the people did not vote for these. The people voted PTP.

Therefore, this is the crux of the issue, the elite have got control by "legitimate" methods under the law, the same way Thaksin did many things "within the law".

However, both were immoral and until this immoral government coaliation ends and the power is returned to the people to vote, then the problems remain.

Just dissolve the house Abhisit, be a man for once and show you have the "all" the Thai peoples concerns on your mind, not just the ruling elite.

[TallForeigner]

Well - everyone is as miserable as he chooses to be... My Thai wife and all her friends and neighbours in the area have got a similar positive attitude and I don't see any hatred against the Reds. I don't see anyone's life really being made miserable because of the Red Shirts.

Believe it or not, I think your opinion is massively geographically challenged. I bet you all the business owners in the surrounding areas are having kittens right now about their staff from outside the area being prevented from approaching the area. Many staff workers people use public busses or drive their own cars. To think that people's lives are not being made miserable by a rally cutting of access to the heart of a city during the first working day of the week is outright naive.

Suthep's inability to handle the situation is again landing us with another Pattaya ASIAN conference – it's time for him to go and this to end.

According to him, he would be happy in a concentration camp. I just dislike when it appears people make up personal stories to support a cause and avoid simply saying what they are ... in this case a Red Shirt supporter.

Wow, what a guy have we got here? Talking about concentration camp and coming with an attitude influenced by the Bush doctrine "either you are with or you are against us". If you come from an English speaking country you probably cannot understand that there are more view than just yes or no or democrat/republican or conservative/labor or similar. If I'm taking a more neutral approach and not broadly condemning and judging the Red Shirts it doesn't mean that I support them. I'm neither supporting the Red Shirts nor the Yellow Shirts nor the Blue Shirts nor the Pink Shirts. I'm just wondering how some farangs chose to think that life is miserable if some businesses are suffering - life is going on, people here are inventive and most find ways to make the best out of the situation. Some people have got the ability to make the best for themselves out of even a miserable situation and some don't. The only thing that really counts for me is that the crisis will end without bloodshed.

Edited April 5, 2010 by TallForeigner