Red Dawn

[canuckamuck]

I have always been sympathetic to the causes of the poor and the oppressed, the underdogs of our world. Some are poor by their own hand, but most are not. Most were born under barriers that are difficult to penetrate: Inadequate education, lack of self confidence, class structures, discrimination, and an overwhelming poverty mentality.

Historically there have been examples of the working poor, overcoming the ruling class, and setting forth a new national direc

[daoyai]

Red shirts become

Red guards?

Edited April 8, 2010 by daoyai

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Note that not all (or not even a majority) of Red Shirts favor socialism/communism.

The stated goal is democracy without meddling from above. That's not the same as socialism, that's just actual democracy.

[simpathy]

Sounds so good,but arent they just trying to get taksins power back. And for taksin to keep power he will need to keep poor poor. The poor are just being used Again!

[simpathy]

Note that not all (or not even a majority) of Red Shirts favor socialism/communism.

The stated goal is democracy without meddling from above. That's not the same as socialism, that's just actual democracy.

If red shirts are poor they should support socialism and communism. They come out good in those scenarios.

[Jingthing]

Canadians do seem to have a soft spot for the Fidel Castro's and Cesar Chavez's of the world. Pity these reds also happen to be totalitarian dictators. Inconvenient truth. Extremes of both the left and the right are a lethal brew. Also like right wingers, they have their scapegoats, in Castro's case gays (which Thaksin's reds show signs of copying) in Chavez's case Jews.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Jingthing

[Meridian007]

Canadians do seem to have a soft spot for the Fidel Castro's and Cesar Chavez's of the world. Pity these reds also happen to be totalitarian dictators. Inconvenient truth. Extremes of both the left and the right are a lethal brew. Also like right wingers, they have their scapegoats, in Castro's case gays (which Thaksin's reds show signs of copying) in Chavez's case Jews.

Well, as a Canadian, I can't say I support Castro or Chavez, but I don't think socialism is a bad thing. If this movement was really about bringing socialism to Thailand, (or even democracy, both very difficult goals), I would support the reds completely.

Sadly, this is just the lie that the front line of the movement is being fed by their leaders. Those on the ground may not understand the intricacies of democratic, representative government, or government social assistance, but they do understand food on the table for themselves and their families. That is their goal. It is sad that such a large amount of the population have been left to live this way, but it's not the fault of the current government alone. ALL former governments did the same, but Thaksin was smart enough to throw some scraps, and now they are hungry for more with his promises of universal wealth. "A mia noi for everyone!"

The leadership of the red shirts and Pheu Thai, (and by extension, their paymaster, Thaksin), are all a bunch of rich businessmen, and therefore a part of the "elite" when looked at from a class perspective. Sure, they don't have as much of a direct connection to the invisible hand, (unless you believe some rumours about some of Thaksin's hidden friendships), as the current government does, but I think that is what is angering them. They have been pushed out of the trough that they had control of for so many years, and they want back in, by any means. It is merely convenient to use the poor as footsoldiers to achieve their goals, so a few lies, a few doctored tapes, and some hate mongering is needed to rile the troops.

I feel sorry for Thailand.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Meridian007

[Jingthing]

I agree. Socialism is good, in moderation.

[givenall]

Note that not all (or not even a majority) of Red Shirts favor socialism/communism.

The stated goal is democracy without meddling from above. That's not the same as socialism, that's just actual democracy.

It is not rocket science. If socialities want to succeed and become democracy, you need to rise the level of income and create middle class. I do not know any society succeeding democracy if you only have and have no. middle classes are the key to democracy

[simpathy]

can you who adore socialism give examples of good things it does for its people. from my studies it just makes everyone miserable. unless you are an elite.

taxes up the azz. lagging economies, no jobs, all things people want ,long waits to fix a broken bone,

Edited April 8, 2010 by simpathy

[Jingthing]

can you who adore socialism give examples of good things it does for its people. from my studies it just makes everyone miserable. unless you are an elite.

Honestly, I am only a soft socialist, within a capitalist context. For example, universal health care Canadian style is something I wish the US had (it still doesn't). That is great for the vast majority of people compared to a privatized profit system, although nothing is perfect. So I like socialist programs, but not socialist regimes.

[Meridian007]

Look at global indexes on happiness. You'll see that countries that follow some precepts of socialism tend to have a happier population. It's countries like the states that have an unatuaral fear of it that have a greater divide of rich and poor, and less life satisfaction and happiness.

[CWMcMurray]

...Sadly, this is just the lie that the front line of the movement is being fed by their leaders. Those on the ground may not understand the intricacies of democratic, representative government, or government social assistance, but they do understand food on the table for themselves and their families. That is their goal. It is sad that such a large amount of the population have been left to live this way, but it's not the fault of the current government alone. ALL former governments did the same, but Thaksin was smart enough to throw some scraps, and now they are hungry for more with his promises of universal wealth. "A mia noi for everyone!"

The leadership of the red shirts and Pheu Thai, (and by extension, their paymaster, Thaksin), are all a bunch of rich businessmen, and therefore a part of the "elite" when looked at from a class perspective. Sure, they don't have as much of a direct connection to the invisible hand, (unless you believe some rumours about some of Thaksin's hidden friendships), as the current government does, but I think that is what is angering them. They have been pushed out of the trough that they had control of for so many years, and they want back in, by any means. It is merely convenient to use the poor as footsoldiers to achieve their goals, so a few lies, a few doctored tapes, and some hate mongering is needed to rile the troops.

I agree with all that you have written above, but still tend to favour the reds... why??? ...

Because even though the leadership of the REDs may not believe what they are saying, If they do "win" (at least in part) I believe it will be impossible for them to to "put the gennie back in the bottle".

They will have created a movement and will have no choice but to follow through with some of what they are talking about. The lower classes will have succeeded and "flexed their muscles" and I do not believe that they will allow even their own leaders to retirn to "business as usual".

Could I be wrong??? Aboslutely possible, but it is the reason why I am not currently against the REDs.

If the mob turns violent without provication from the Government or Army, I would likely change my mind. I completely agree that the storming of the parliment was wrong yesterday, but I also read that the leaders of the REDs were telling their people not to storm the Parliment and calling those that did "fake reds".

Because the leaders seem to be trying to prevent the mob from storming the parliment and have distanced themselves form those that did, I am still not going to hold it against their movement.

[simpathy]

is it possible they dont know better. i doubt cubans know what its like to be able to get a good schooling and be able to take care of their family. do socialist countries develop medical breakthroughs?

even china has realized free markets is the way to go!

usa fears socialism because we see what it does to a country. It dumbs down its population. look at haiti and its neighbor. same w s korea and its neighbor. govet conrol dont work!

[canuckamuck]

Sorry about that, my internet went down in the middle of that post.

Here is the entire OP as it was originally intended

I have always been sympathetic to the causes of the poor and the oppressed, the underdogs of our world. Some are poor by their own hand, but most are not. Most were born under barriers that are difficult to penetrate: Inadequate education, lack of self confidence, class structures, discrimination, and an overwhelming poverty mentality.

Historically there have been examples of the working poor, overcoming the ruling class, and setting forth a new national direction. Quite often this is a bloody affair, followed by a cruel and dogmatic socialism which paralyzes the economic engines, creates even greater poverty and results in a smaller voice for the people.

Socialism is a medicine that must be taken in measured doses. One drop too many and the patient may never recover. What the reds desire is completely understandable: better national health care, a better education system, opportunities for children to live better than their parents did, better access to working capital, and they want to their vote to be respected and not be tossed away by a judicial whim.

What they don’t seem to realize is they already are the majority; with a self controlled capable leader from their own ranks, and a clear plan and agenda, they could start their own party and easily dominate parliament. They have enough time to make a reasonable challenge for the election 9 months from now.

The problem is that instead of doing it themselves, they have pinned their hopes on a person who is so far removed from their social interests that the combination is ludicrous at best. When Mr. Thaksin was in power he was wise to throw some political treats to the working class. In doing so Thaksin awoke a giant and a powerful ally. The working poor have rewarded him by keeping him from slipping into obscurity in exile. But no one outside of the reds believes that Thaksin has any great love for humanity. He is the consummate me-first-then-my-buddies capitalist and an antihero for the cause of social justice. Not that capitalism is inherently evil, it is just that Thailand is already firmly capitalistic (feudal capitalism I suppose) and what the poor need today is a small controlled correction to the left.

What the reds need to eventually realize is that Thaksin is no longer (maybe he never was) capable of bringing about controlled reform. The return of Thaksin to a seat of power will only guarantee a more violent era. There is far too much opposition in the establishment for Thaksin to return to power peacefully, and the only predictable result would be complete destabilization of the nation.

A Thai revolution is possible; the red shirts have all the necessary ingredients. My hope is that Mr. Abhisit will have enough time and foresight to make some publicized shifts in the favor of the poor before the upcoming election, coup, or ousting by any other means. My fear is that the door is open for the hammer and sickle to find a place on those nice red shirts and flags.

[doggie888888]

can you who adore socialism give examples of good things it does for its people. from my studies it just makes everyone miserable. unless you are an elite.

taxes up the azz. lagging economies, no jobs, all things people want ,long waits to fix a broken bone,

Only because you asked...

Singapore in its early days was somewhat socialist...public housing, compulsory savings/retirement, access to health, compulsory education and generally government "guidance" in many aspects of society, much of which became the foundation of the nation. As one poster said, socialism in moderation is not necessarily a bad thing. And please, socialism need not necesssarily lead to communism nor to despot dictatorships. Personally I do not see anything wrong with government intervention in some aspects of society provided of course it is what the population wants and it can easily put to vote in elections or referendum. Some very livable European countries have very socialist foundations too, and remain proudly so.

I am not American so forgive me...but I read somewhere that it is a historical fact that the founding fathers of USA may have socialist (and certainly secular) tendencies as well. Perhaps other more enlightened persons can shed some light.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Most Western European countries are socialist by US standards.

[CWMcMurray]

I would also like to say, that I am not hoping for the REDs to completely win or for Thaksin to return to Power.

I would like to see them completely change the face of politics in Thailand and help to move the dialog to the social issues discussed in this thread.

Thailand is currently so far away from socialism, I do not think anything other than a full out revolution would move it that far to the left. (which I would not like to see happen).

So if this whole thing gives Thailand just a small "bump" to the left, I think it would be a good thing and would help to make Thailand a better place.

[daoyai]

Canadians do seem to have a soft spot for the Fidel Castro's and Cesar Chavez's of the world. Pity these reds also happen to be totalitarian dictators. Inconvenient truth. Extremes of both the left and the right are a lethal brew. Also like right wingers, they have their scapegoats, in Castro's case gays (which Thaksin's reds show signs of copying) in Chavez's case Jews.

Cesar Chavez? you have a problem with the united farm workers union? Or maybe you mean Hugo Chavez?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

> in Castro's case gays (which Thaksin's reds show signs of copying)

Agreed, and that's just nuts. I'll bring that up one of these days with my Red friends.

[Jingthing]

Canadians do seem to have a soft spot for the Fidel Castro's and Cesar Chavez's of the world. Pity these reds also happen to be totalitarian dictators. Inconvenient truth. Extremes of both the left and the right are a lethal brew. Also like right wingers, they have their scapegoats, in Castro's case gays (which Thaksin's reds show signs of copying) in Chavez's case Jews.

Cesar Chavez? you have a problem with the united farm workers union? Or maybe you mean Hugo Chavez?

Sorry, I flaked out! Of course Hugo, ha ha. Love Cesar!

[Garry9999]

What the reds need to eventually realize is that Thaksin is no longer (maybe he never was) capable of bringing about controlled reform. The return of Thaksin to a seat of power will only guarantee a more violent era. There is far too much opposition in the establishment for Thaksin to return to power peacefully, and the only predictable result would be complete destabilization of the nation.

A Thai revolution is possible; the red shirts have all the necessary ingredients. My hope is that Mr. Abhisit will have enough time and foresight to make some publicized shifts in the favor of the poor before the upcoming election, coup, or ousting by any other means. My fear is that the door is open for the hammer and sickle to find a place on those nice red shirts and flags.

You are quite right, the reds need to find themselves a new leader, but who and from where?

One big problem with holding an election now or in 9 months time is, how can it be made free and fair. I don't image the Thai authorities allowing a UN style observer. Vote buying is endemic, from Or Bor Tor through to the highest level.

The other big problem is, are Thailands institutions ready for democracy? Can the elitists except an election where a socialist party wins, I tend to think not.

Can the military separate itself entirely from politics and except the peoples choice? Probably not.

Can the judiciary be apolitical?

Then there's the whole question of the un-mentionable.

So the cycle continues, coup, military installed government, attempt at democracy, coup.

Finally, as Farangs who live, lived in or visit Thailand, who are at best, guests of the Kingdom staying on 12 month renewable non-immigration visas, why do we even care? Thailand has been this way for many years. Too many Farangs look at Thailand through a western prospective. Maybe democracy isn't the best thing for Thailand.

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

Sir Winston Churchill

British politician (1874 - 1965)

[anotherpeter]

<snip>

If the mob turns violent without provication from the Government or Army, I would likely change my mind. I completely agree that the storming of the parliment was wrong yesterday, but I also read that the leaders of the REDs were telling their people not to storm the Parliment and calling those that did "fake reds".

Because the leaders seem to be trying to prevent the mob from storming the parliment and have distanced themselves form those that did, I am still not going to hold it against their movement.

The "fake reds" that stormed parliament included one of the red leaders (Arisman).

[clockworkorange]

Note that not all (or not even a majority) of Red Shirts favor socialism/communism.

The stated goal is democracy without meddling from above. That's not the same as socialism, that's just actual democracy.

Yep. All the reds want is the right to choose their master. They miss the kind of treatment that they got from Thaksin. Healthcare, assistance, and the dignity that goes with it. Thaksin was in no way a socialist - he was pro-business and the economy did well under his direction.

Funny how dems are scuttling around touting debt relief now. Too little, too late.

Edited April 8, 2010 by clockworkorange

[canuckamuck]

What the reds need to eventually realize is that Thaksin is no longer (maybe he never was) capable of bringing about controlled reform. The return of Thaksin to a seat of power will only guarantee a more violent era. There is far too much opposition in the establishment for Thaksin to return to power peacefully, and the only predictable result would be complete destabilization of the nation.

A Thai revolution is possible; the red shirts have all the necessary ingredients. My hope is that Mr. Abhisit will have enough time and foresight to make some publicized shifts in the favor of the poor before the upcoming election, coup, or ousting by any other means. My fear is that the door is open for the hammer and sickle to find a place on those nice red shirts and flags.

You are quite right, the reds need to find themselves a new leader, but who and from where?

One big problem with holding an election now or in 9 months time is, how can it be made free and fair. I don't image the Thai authorities allowing a UN style observer. Vote buying is endemic, from Or Bor Tor through to the highest level.

The other big problem is, are Thailands institutions ready for democracy? Can the elitists except an election where a socialist party wins, I tend to think not.

Can the military separate itself entirely from politics and except the peoples choice? Probably not.

Can the judiciary be apolitical?

Then there's the whole question of the un-mentionable.

So the cycle continues, coup, military installed government, attempt at democracy, coup.

Finally, as Farangs who live, lived in or visit Thailand, who are at best, guests of the Kingdom staying on 12 month renewable non-immigration visas, why do we even care? Thailand has been this way for many years. Too many Farangs look at Thailand through a western prospective. Maybe democracy isn't the best thing for Thailand.

Of course you are right Gary, its seems to be a terminal loop, and if it is I guess there is no sense commenting.

But, in this shrinking world, all manner of new influences are eroding the status quo. Even the culturally insulated Thais have the potential to be pushed in a new direction if the right agitator rises up. The one thing Communism needs more than anything is a disgruntled working class and someone charismatic enough to take advantage. With the critical lack of education, particularly knowledge of world history, Thailand is a tinderbox stuffed to the brim with gullible and spontaneous civilians, who need little excuse to upset the apple cart.

[thaibeachlovers]

What the reds need to eventually realize is that Thaksin is no longer (maybe he never was) capable of bringing about controlled reform. The return of Thaksin to a seat of power will only guarantee a more violent era. There is far too much opposition in the establishment for Thaksin to return to power peacefully, and the only predictable result would be complete destabilization of the nation.

A Thai revolution is possible; the red shirts have all the necessary ingredients. My hope is that Mr. Abhisit will have enough time and foresight to make some publicized shifts in the favor of the poor before the upcoming election, coup, or ousting by any other means. My fear is that the door is open for the hammer and sickle to find a place on those nice red shirts and flags.

You are quite right, the reds need to find themselves a new leader, but who and from where?

One big problem with holding an election now or in 9 months time is, how can it be made free and fair. I don't image the Thai authorities allowing a UN style observer. Vote buying is endemic, from Or Bor Tor through to the highest level.

The other big problem is, are Thailands institutions ready for democracy? Can the elitists except an election where a socialist party wins, I tend to think not.

Can the military separate itself entirely from politics and except the peoples choice? Probably not.

Can the judiciary be apolitical?

Then there's the whole question of the un-mentionable.

So the cycle continues, coup, military installed government, attempt at democracy, coup.

Finally, as Farangs who live, lived in or visit Thailand, who are at best, guests of the Kingdom staying on 12 month renewable non-immigration visas, why do we even care? Thailand has been this way for many years. Too many Farangs look at Thailand through a western prospective. Maybe democracy isn't the best thing for Thailand.

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

Sir Winston Churchill

British politician (1874 - 1965)

You ask why we care.

Personally, I care because the things I enjoyed about LOS before toxin were to a large extent "damaged" by him and his sidekick puritanical, and should he return, I would expect more of the same.

To mention just two of the things to which I refer, the beaches, which have been largely ruined by Koh Chang type greed, and the night life, which was just brilliant in the mid 90s, and has yet to recover to its former glory.

[Changian]

Right on. Keep out that evil Thaksin and his insistence on trying to clean up Bangkok's nightlife. Vote Democrat - and the bars stay open all night. Woo hoo.

But cant see it being a vote winner amongst the Bangkokian middle classes.

[blaze]

This is a very good and timely question. It MAY be, and some have argued this, that the paternalistic nature of the culture teaches thais to be dependent- (from birth dependent infants are raised to stay dependent and groomed to eventually take care of dependent parents-

Socialism is fundamentally requires a willingness to share- rather than simply expect and receive. Dependency removes the requisite sense of social responsibility from the equation leaving in place only the expectation of handouts.

On the other hand, there are the examples of the communist camps of the seventies which, according to the accounts I've read, functioned quite well and there are various successful (according to some observers) co-operative projects in the villages so perhaps the propensity for some form of socialism is there.

This is a topic that I'd really like to see some of the more knowledgeable in this forum contribute to (more knowledgeable than me, I mean).

[thaibeachlovers]

Right on. Keep out that evil Thaksin and his insistence on trying to clean up Bangkok's nightlife. Vote Democrat - and the bars stay open all night. Woo hoo.

But cant see it being a vote winner amongst the Bangkokian middle classes.

Perhaps not, though their children are the ones frequenting the Thai night life establishments.

As I remember it, toxin did not try to "clean up" Bangkok's night life, but he did try to destroy the farang catering establishments. Businesses catering to Thais were free to carry on as usual. I don't recall any raids on Chao Phrya 2 et al, but feel free to correct me if there were indeed such.

Please be factual- the western catering bars don't stay open all night any more.

As for the nightlife itself, what do you think brings more money into Thailand- temples and night markets or GoGos etc?

Edited April 8, 2010 by thaibeachlovers

[Mosha]

I recall a quote from a BBC programme about China recently, by a Chinese government official. "You can do what you like with a pheasant, because no one cares about them" The there is the line from The Who song, "Won't get fooled again." Look at the new boss, same as the old boss"