Higher Level (degree) Blatantly Refused

[gzu88bv]

My lady has been a teacher (social subject) and officer for almost 30 years. She submitted approx. one and a half years ago a report to the Head Office overlooking her school to reach a higher level (degree). She got blatantly refused that to her rather sounds as though it is an issue of politics and not of principle.

She is fighting the verdict of the provincial Head Office and put the case a while ago before an Administrative Court in the North East and a preliminary assessment of the court looks like my lady will prevail, but the definite written ruling is not yet known.

After talks and counselling with people from an Administrative Court in another province and for the fact that the Administrative Court now in charge may not be able to address all the details of the case itself, my lady even thinks to put this case before another/higher (Civil Court???) and even ask for redemption.

What we are looking for is a lawyer (law office) that could represent this case before the right court and who is aware of the Thai Education System and knowledgeable enough about schools, teachers and related matters. We are also looking to get in touch with people who may lead us in the right direction how this matter could be dealt with at best. We are not sure but believe to meet a preliminary deadline of early August this year.

Thank you for any input whatsoever.

[Ijustwannateach]

Can you please clarify your story a bit? It sounds like your (wife? girlfriend?) is trying to get a graduate level degree- that's usually what I assume by 'higher level degree'- but I don't understand why she isn't just studying? Why does she need to 'apply to an office overlooking her school?' Doesn't getting a higher level degree involve classes and research? Has she failed her classes, or has her dissertation been rejected? Something is unclear here.

In any case, in my limited understanding of Thai office politics, I doubt that hiring a lawyer alone will be a good solution, as if she is having this many problems with people at work it will only inflame matters in the long run. If she's burned her bridges with these people and has no way to negotiate except the lawyer, she should probably also be seeking a new job- she may win one battle but she won't win the war and will probably be made miserable if she's made her superiors lose face.

[aidenai]

My lady has been a teacher (social subject) and officer for almost 30 years. She submitted approx. one and a half years ago a report to the Head Office overlooking her school to reach a higher level (degree).

I don't really understand what you are writing. Are you talking about your wife meeting the requirements for a higher pay scale, i.e. Chan 3, and was rejected?

[troehr]

I think he is talking about the level certifications for Thai teachers in the government school system. It is not based on BA, MA or Doctorates. They have certain levels you can attain to get more pay. I know my girlfriend is currently submitting her work for her next level. But I do not claim to understand how the system actually works.

[gzu88bv]

I do not fully understand the Thai Education System either, but throer and adenai seem to be pretty close what I mean. Such a report has nothing to do with e.i. a MA.

The procedure for such a report is as follow:

1. The applicant (my girl) appears before a committee, in fact the committee checks her quality, what she is doing as a teacher in her job and whether she is suitable to go to a higher level

2. The committee then decides whether the applicant is qualified to apply and go to a seminar

3. After that the applicant goes to a seminar for 5 days

4. At the seminar the applicant receives a certificate if successful

5. If above points are fully met, the applicant then submits the report in question (her report incl. statistics consisted of about 400 pages all in all). Such a report is also called and known as Vijai (not

sure about the spelling)

My girl has a bachelor in social and actually teaches at the level of Kru Chan Nan Gan (hope I spelled that right). With the report that she submitted about one and a half year ago and had she been accepted, she could have reached a higher level, which subsequently means more money and has an effect upon her pension too.

If my girl had been successful and allowed to that higher level, she then could apply for another last higher level, which is the top level allowed for Thai teachers.

Hope that clarifies.

P.S. Even in Thailand one cannot always give in and just acknowledge lies. But I do know what face in Thailand means and as a prudent guy I also informed my Embassy (Ambassador) in Bangkok accordingly about this Adminstrative Court case should anything unexpected occur. And those who think that for a Thai officer to change a teaching job from one city to another is just a piece of cake, I have to say that he probably does not know what numbers are going to change hands for such intentions.

[thunder30101]

Sounds to me as if she didnt pay her dues and Im talking about baht not work.

[phetaroi]

The procedure for such a report is as follow:

1. The applicant (my girl) appears before a committee, in fact the committee checks her quality, what she is doing as a teacher in her job and whether she is suitable to go to a higher level

2. The committee then decides whether the applicant is qualified to apply and go to a seminar

3. After that the applicant goes to a seminar for 5 days

4. At the seminar the applicant receives a certificate if successful

5. If above points are fully met, the applicant then submits the report in question (her report incl. statistics consisted of about 400 pages all in all). Such a report is also called and known as Vijai

My girl has a bachelor in social and actually teaches at the level of Kru Chan Nan Gan (hope I spelled that right). With the report that she submitted about one and a half year ago and had she been accepted, she could have reached a higher level, which subsequently means more money and has an effect upon her pension too.

If my girl had been successful and allowed to that higher level, she then could apply for another last higher level, which is the top level allowed for Thai teachers.

P.S. Even in Thailand one cannot always give in and just acknowledge lies. But I do know what face in Thailand means and as a prudent guy I also informed my Embassy (Ambassador) in Bangkok accordingly about this Adminstrative Court case should anything unexpected occur. And those who think that for a Thai officer to change a teaching job from one city to another is just a piece of cake, I have to say that he probably does not know what numbers are going to change hands for such intentions.

Perhaps you could clarify for me a bit...just trying to understand this.

Is the law you talk about above a case of "if you do X, then you automatically get Y", or is it a case of "if you do X, then you can be evaluated and possibly get Y"?

Let me explain why I ask this. In my school system back in Virginia, if you were an assistant principal you could go through the "portfolio process", to be elevated to a status where promotion to a principalship or other higher level administration position was (for wont of a better term) fast-tracked. However, just because someone did the "portfolio process", didn't mean they did it well and were passed. There were those who did an excellent job of putting a portfolio of experiences and qualifications together and who attended the sufficient number of inservice sessions. There were those who did the minimum in the portfolio process and skimmed by. And there were those who either didn't do the minimum or their performance was not of a high enough quality (for example, I had one candidate who had a wonderful portfolio of experiences and qualifications, but she failed miserably in writing skills). It ultimately became a judgment call on the part of a committee, not unlike that that would be made by a panel considering the awarding of a doctorate.

Are you sure that's not what the problem is?

[troehr]

I know that they have up to one year to rule on the project. It is entirely possibly she just did not do good enough work. I know mine is really worried about hers. I think it is good work, but that does not mean the Thai system will see it that way.

T

[TongueThaied]

This is NOT about an academic degree. It is about a pay grade level up to which a teacher may move. There are five levels. I brand new teacher starts at level one. He/she must complete a small project that must be approved by a committee to move to level two. This is fairly easy and almost all teachers get to level two. To move up to level three, the teacher must complete a much more complex project. The project subject can be any school subject (math, science, English, etc.).

I have been the "expert" on several of these level three projects that were done on the subject of English. I have edited and corrected many of them before submission. Typically, the teacher's project consists of 5-10 small textbooks he/she creates on the chosen subject. Many of the projects I have examined were deplorable -- so bad in fact that I felt the teacher had no chance of success, ever -- at least in the English subject. Others were very good. The completed project is submitted to a committee. Very few teachers make level three on the first attempt. Many try repeatedly and never make it. In my district, there are typically 30 or so applicants each year. Also, typically, only one or two are successful on the first go round. The committee typically rejects outright 15 or so of the 30 submissions. The committee will send back for revision, improvement and resubmission, the remaining 12-13 submissions. After revision these projects are resubmitted. Some are successful and some are not. Level three is a fairly difficult level to acheive and most teachers never make it.

Level four is VERY difficult. there are few teachers in thailand that ever acheive level four. It is an exclusive club. Rumor has it that only a single school principal has ever acheived level five. Level five is essentially beyond reach.

I do not know what level the OP's "girl" (odd description for someone who has been taching 30 years) is trying to achieve, but I assume level three. The comment above about burning bridges is correct. I have a feeling that we have a farang that is feeling injustice and pushing his "girl" to "do the right thing." I will be the first to fight wrongs. I don't lay down for anybody. I don't pay extortion. But that is me. If my wife gave in to me and fought every time I thought she was being screwed at her job as a teacher, her career would long since have been destroyed because of my meddling. Fortunately, she has the will to resist my righteous indignation at what I view to be poor work conditions. If your "girl" wants a lawyer and wants to fight with the committee, the more power to her. But if it is you, Mr. OP, for godsakes, leave her the f#ck alone!

Edited April 12, 2010 by TongueThaied

[gzu88bv]

In all honesty what you would do?

The committee overseeing the report tells you that you could not pass. Reason: you copied from another person and even mentions in their written decision the name of that person who by the way submitted at the same time. However, you have never ever known respectively been in touch with that person. And in the same decision the committee tells you, that if you want to resubmit, you would have to acknowledge.

I am not looking for Farang related remarks/advice, but only for a lawyer (law office), procedures and/or people familiar with and specializing in the Thai Education System to fight such blatant nonsense and injustice.

[thunder30101]

Since you dont want to hear anything from someone with experience that can help you and are only looking for a lawyer there is no need to post anything more, just look at the lawyer ads on thai visa.

[phetaroi]

In all honesty what you would do?

The committee overseeing the report tells you that you could not pass. Reason: you copied from another person and even mentions in their written decision the name of that person who by the way submitted at the same time. However, you have never ever known respectively been in touch with that person. And in the same decision the committee tells you, that if you want to resubmit, you would have to acknowledge.

I am not looking for Farang related remarks/advice, but only for a lawyer (law office), procedures and/or people familiar with and specializing in the Thai Education System to fight such blatant nonsense and injustice.

This is a discussion forum. You don't control the discussion.

In what you wrote above, the case is clear.

[Unfaithful]

Pay a Thai lawyer and waste money.

[Scott]

This thread seems to be going nowhere, so I will close it now.