Bangkok: 10+ Dead, Hundreds Hurt In Bangkok Clashes

[ianf]

473geo,

Who the h_ell are you talking about? Who wanted the violence? It seems to me that it was the Reds whereas Abhsit has remained peaceful from the beginning compared to the attitude of the Reds.

The "violence" occurred due to government's effort to store Bangkok to its normal state. This is the wish of the majority people, and the government's duty. Violence unfortunately occurred as part of the government's effort. I really wish that there could have been no violence, but given the Reds' attitude and the number, it was almost impossible. To simply put, violence did not happen because a group of people wanted violence. It happened because the government try to restore Bangkok. Again, I wish that there were no violence and deaths.

PS. The government made a mistake killing people, but it still does not make Reds the "good guy"

Calm down and read my post again.....it says there are those that say they wanted violence.....the reds.....ok and they got it.

I have also never painted the reds as the good guys......what people tend to assume is that because I criticise elements of one side I therefore support the actions of the other. I guess I can see why people might come up with that thought......but it is actually a very narrow view. My main reasoning is simple, I think there could have been more talk if only to keep the protest at a controlled level. Control and defuse. I do believe that had the troops not been sent in, there would have been no deaths as yet. So I ask why the decision to try and forcibly remove the protestors and risk the happenings of today. It is my belief that casualties should have been avoided at all costs. It is also my belief that Abhisit was pressured into a decision he personally did not wish to make just yet. That is my view. Make of it what you will.

100% correct

[thepodest]

Allseeingeye,

I think you misunderstood me. I am ALL for getting rid of the protesters from public spaces. All I am saying that pictures dead/injured protests in the media around the world are not pretty. This alone can be the downfall for Abhisit. I wish that this will not happen, but I think that it will...

Edited April 11, 2010 by thepodest

[Deeral]

Whatever your views on the parties involved it cannot be denied that the govt has failed to rise to the occasion on any aspect here. THe Redshirts have not acquiesced, violence is worse than last year, tourist areas are affected and there are ramifications in the North. A week or more of dithering by the govt has resulted in some very dubious actions - closing websites, TV stations, the BTS etc and finally violence.

Is there was no reason before there is now a damned good reason for the PM to review the tenability of his position.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Deeral

[Deeral]

I note however that so far the baht is remaining stable.

[ALLSEEINGEYE]

Allseeingeye,

I think you misunderstood me. I am ALL for getting rid of the protesters from public spaces. All I am saying that pictures dead/injured protests in the media around the world are not pretty. This alone can be the downfall for Abhisit. I wish that this will not happen, but I think that it will...

Noted, and you are correct about public opinion. I do however think that there is enough video out there for this government to be able to defend their actions. There was a lot of restraint in dealing with a bad situation. I guess time will tell how this plays on the international scene and all might not be over yet, but let's hope it is and everyone goes home to their families and enjoys a safe Songkran together.

[CosmicSurfer]

In actual fact.. Both sides are to blame for all this!!

I actually agree with the poor uneducated farmers of the Reds and the slightly more educated middle classes of the Yellows. Unfortunately, both are being manipulated by the Rich, corrupt elites who are only out for the power and the corruption that power gains them, and who fund both sides.

There will never be any true change here until the poor and middle classes work together to destroy the feudal patronage system that is the backbone of Thai society. They must get out and Demand REAL education and Social services... Not populist 30 Baht health care that is under-funded and poorly administered. They must stop allowing the excuse of "It's Thai culture" to put up road blocks and hinder their social development.

Too many people here don't realize that REAL Democracy is not simply "One man - One Vote". There is much more to it. It entails guaranteed Rights and Freedoms... all lacking here. It calls for the responsibility to use that vote with forethought and competent reasoning.. again lacking. It requires a Free and Accountable electoral process... Missing here. It mandates the majority with a responsibility to take care of their minorities... Not part of the culture here.... It is NOT all about the Money... which is what it is all about here!

If you don't agree, then I suggest reading about Democracy here > Democracy!

All power to the People!!!... In a REAL democracy.

CS

Edited April 11, 2010 by CosmicSurfer

[seanocasey]

Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, great as each may be, their highest comfort given to the sorrowful is a cordial introduction into another's woe. Sorrow's the great community in which all men born of woman are members at one time or another.

[gotglue]

interesting news this morning, showing the endless stream of soldiers arriving at hospitals and not a single red t-shirt in sight........hmmm

[DWALDO]

Listen, democracy is simple: there is elections and the one who win stay in power for four or five years depending of the country. If you don't like him, it'll be time to throw him out at the next election as people have the power to do this.

NOW, what is NOT democraty is when a bunch of people whether they're rich or poor decide to don't wait for the next election and to put the whole country in danger simply because, just like spoild childs, they want a change, NOW!

If Abhisit had serious criminal charges on his record (like THaksin had) or was totally corrupted (like Thaksin was) it would be different. But it was not the case.

The only reason why all this mess is happening is because of somebody totally SICK watching all this from his suite in Dubai or Moscow.

There is NOT ONE country in the world that would have allowed what Thaksin is doing to Thailand, specially when it's a guy who has divided a country that was not divided before and who should be in jail.

In the last ten years i never heard ONE THING said by Thaksin that was not a lie. Every word was there only to serve his thirst of power. Unfortunately these poor people of Northern Thailand believed him, thanks, too, to some thousand baths.

When people will understand that as long as Thaksin is alive the whole Thailand is in danger? The government tried to resolve the situation in a buddhist way, but you can't play buddhism when you have somebody in front who is a fascist and who lies all the time.

Everything which happened today, the death of these poor people or soldiers, EVERYTHING is the fault of Thaksin who is at the origin of the demonstrations.

Thaksin is a monster and should be eliminate NOW before his sick ego destroys the whole kingdom.

Are you serious or not very bright? There were elections but a small minority of wealthy people didn't like the elected government so used their power to remove that government. These elites control the country and have kept their own privileged lives at the expense of the poor majority.

Many Farangs who live in Thailand and many on this forum seem to support this Thai form of apartheid, probably because they can live well here, while the poor majority live in poverty with precious little health care and education. As has been said so many times this government is not representative of the Thai electorate, hence the reason Abhisit won't go to the country.

When practically all the media is controlled by either the government or the military and the vast sums of money at the disposal of these rich people who support the subjugation of the poor, it's no surprise the poor have had enough. The army have all the money they diverted from the north, when they overthrew the elected government and doubled their own budget.

[seanocasey]

is it me to say or is it you to see for i am only a man but not only human but a man.

The military mind is indeed a menace. Old-fashioned futurity that sees only men fighting and dying in smoke and fire; hears nothing more civilized than a cannonade; scents nothing but the stink of battle-wounds and blood.

[neverdie]

Very sad situation indeed - RIP to all deceased. Some people around the place really need to take a long hard look at themselves......some of the comments on this forum are unbelievalbe - Grow up.

[seanocasey]

i say again and peace to all.

The military mind is indeed a menace. Old-fashioned futurity that sees only men fighting and dying in smoke and fire; hears nothing more civilized than a cannonade; scents nothing but the stink of battle-wounds and blood.

[TallForeigner]

And now what?

15 dead people and nearly 700 people injured.

Troops did retreat.

After the battle started the leaders promised to have Phan Fa area cleared before nightfall. Troops and police also tried to move into the Ratchaprasong rally area.

Red leaders asking for truce and talks - government asking for talks.

And the reds?

They are left even more angry and aggressive. They still occupy the Phan Fa area. Doesn't seem many of them have gone home. Ratchaprasong is still occupied by the red masses. Fact is that they are ready to defend their stance with their blood. Battles leaving 15 dead and 700 injured were not enough to have them removed even from one site.

Are we waiting to see round two with even more blood flowing? Does the government plan to turn also Ratchaprasong into a warzone with even more deaths and casualties? The reds are ready to do just that - but is further bloodshed the only solution here?

Whatever happens I just don't want to see more bloodshed. I am praying that finally some men on all sides involved will display the wisdom needed to find a peaceful compromise.

Edited April 11, 2010 by TallForeigner

[LuckyLew]

what rock do you live under? did you somehow miss the publicly televised negotiations that went on for several days between the government and red shirts? problem is, the red shirt leaders care about one thing only and it's certainly NOT the poor or the farmers. The government didn't crack down on the protesters in order to stay in power but rather to liberate Bangkok from a paid mob that has caused massive disruptions in the capitol of the nation. Calling the PM a dictator really makes you look quite ignorant- the legitimacy of this government has been verified as nauseum. No one had to die today- the red mob had plenty of time and warnings to leave. They chose to stay and fight and die while their fugitive criminal leader relaxes in Dubai. I feel sorry for these gullible pawns who have wasted their lives for something they don't even understand.

Since when was the government handed a carte-blanche to kill Thai civilians? If they are doing something against the law, they should be arrested and brought into court in front of a judge. Not just shot on the streets.

The government's legitimacy has not been verified. That's however precisely what the people are asking for. If you are a legitimate government, hold elections and legitimize yourself. Abhisit should have nothing to fear if the people are behind him.

Nobody is being paid to come demonstrate. Either provide proof or stop lying. All they have been given is money to pay for gas to drive to Bangkok.

Since when were red shirts given a carte blanche to invade bangkok,

bring the city to a stand still? invade gov't office? shut down the

center of Bangkok? steal army supplies (see video above of protestor

using a military shield)? toss fires bomb? launch grenades at random

targets? what kind of ....... are these people from?

[Redsunset]

Abhisit really doesn't have many choices, nor would any other person in his place. It is easy to sit and critique the guy, but fact is, I don't think anyone could have done much better! It is simply the situation that makes his job so impossible.

[MellowYellow]

what rock do you live under? did you somehow miss the publicly televised negotiations that went on for several days between the government and red shirts? problem is, the red shirt leaders care about one thing only and it's certainly NOT the poor or the farmers. The government didn't crack down on the protesters in order to stay in power but rather to liberate Bangkok from a paid mob that has caused massive disruptions in the capitol of the nation. Calling the PM a dictator really makes you look quite ignorant- the legitimacy of this government has been verified as nauseum. No one had to die today- the red mob had plenty of time and warnings to leave. They chose to stay and fight and die while their fugitive criminal leader relaxes in Dubai. I feel sorry for these gullible pawns who have wasted their lives for something they don't even understand.

Since when was the government handed a carte-blanche to kill Thai civilians? If they are doing something against the law, they should be arrested and brought into court in front of a judge. Not just shot on the streets.

The government's legitimacy has not been verified. That's however precisely what the people are asking for. If you are a legitimate government, hold elections and legitimize yourself. Abhisit should have nothing to fear if the people are behind him.

Nobody is being paid to come demonstrate. Either provide proof or stop lying. All they have been given is money to pay for gas to drive to Bangkok.

Since when were red shirts given a carte blanche to invade bangkok,

bring the city to a stand still? invade gov't office? shut down the

center of Bangkok? steal army supplies (see video above of protestor

using a military shield)? toss fires bomb? launch grenades at random

targets? what kind of ....... are these people from?

Nothing you say here or the hordes of other bloodthirsty posters have said, justifies a government using it's MILITARY to kill it's own people.

Go to bangkok and claim your prize. The mutilated bodies of the dead. They are your trophies in your great victory of government violence on it's people.

[Thailand]

8 Years in Thailand and this is indeed my very saddest day.

I had only commented to a friend yesterday that Kyrgyzstan had some 60+ people killed & hundreds injured in a coup this past week and thank god that had not happened here and I see this.

What a very sorry sad start to the normally most enjoyable holiday time in this lovely country now many homes will be in deep mourning and hopefully that is enough unfortunately both sides seem bent on destruction and this is a major nail to any progress here, in fact huge strides backwards.

I had always said this is where I would end my days, sadly I am now having to rethink that.

I don't know how this can be resolved but surely bloodshed is not he way?

[ManilaLover]

"Soldiers will have to withdraw. There is no place to shelter. We cannot do anything," army chief General Anupong Paojinda told AFP.

There is no place to shelter ?? My gosh they withdraw and want peacetalks... Shiiiiiiiiiit.....

[humfurry]

Bangkok: It's almost 7 am here. I went to bed around 2 after a tall neat scotch. Went outside for a smoke a bit ago wrapped in a towel and saw one of the old guys in the village, a Red Shirt and former policeman in Yala. He was sweeping the leaves off the street when he paused and asked me how I was. I just shook my head. He nodded. He picked up the morning edition of the Bangkok Post that was hanging on the gate, looked at it for a few moments then folded it and politely handed to me. He then asked me if I was drunk last night, no I said, just a bit numb and a bit sad. He nodded again and continued sweeping. Then he paused for a moment, held the broom the way a child playing shoot em up would do... He feigned the recoil of a few shots ... buhmp buhmp buhmp came out of his toothless mouth. Then his shoulders slumped and the bristles of the well worn broom quietly hit the street. He looked down, shook his head, his eyes focused on nothing and everything. He looked at me and I nodded. Coffee? he asked. I have.

Hummy

[tropo]

That person is one of the reasons people died out there.

4 soldiers, 4 Red Shirts, 1 journalist.

Are we sure there are 4 dead soldiers? Have you seen the evidence? This could just be propaganda.

I've seen the bodies of the dead Red Shirts.

[Richard W]

from wiki -

Non-lethal or less-lethal rounds are firearm rounds which are designed to incapacitate, but not kill, a target. The rounds rely on the transfer of kinetic energy to accomplish this incapacitation. Rubber bullets, wax bullets, plastic bullets, beanbag rounds, and rubber bullets with electroshock effect (e.g. Taser XREP rounds) are less lethal than conventional metal bullets, and are also propelled at lower speed. (Gunpowder is not used, only a percussion cap.)

Please give your source - not just 'wiki'. Rubber baton rounds can definitely be propelled by black powder, as, so far as I can make out, are plastic bullets such as the UK uses as a 'less lethal' projectile (e.g this baton ammunition specification). There's a nice example of flame spurting out at this rubber bullet demonstration.

Does any one know what sort of 'rubber bullet' Thailand uses? The video didn't give the impression that the soldier was attempting to bounce the projectile at his target.

[MellowYellow]

"Soldiers will have to withdraw. There is no place to shelter. We cannot do anything," army chief General Anupong Paojinda told AFP.

There is no place to shelter ?? My gosh they withdraw and want peacetalks... Shiiiiiiiiiit.....

Is this a gay army or what ?

Now you want to mix in some bigotry with your bloodlust?

[SanSaiExPat]

If it is proven that some of these people that died were paid by Thaksin to be there I would think he could be up on some very serious charges ' That is some seriously convoluted logic young man.

[ALLSEEINGEYE]

"Soldiers will have to withdraw. There is no place to shelter. We cannot do anything," army chief General Anupong Paojinda told AFP.

There is no place to shelter ?? My gosh they withdraw and want peacetalks... Shiiiiiiiiiit.....

Is this a gay army or what ?

Now you want to mix in some bigotry with your bloodlust?

If you want to see the real bloodlust as you put it, then you might want to cut back on the rhetoric and look again at the videos of the beginning or the violence very clearly shows the reds attacking the military. Not the best of choices I think. They have been declaring their war for a long time now as the government showed restraint. The reds got their wish now we just have to see if they can spin it enough to fool the rest of the world into believing they are not truly the ones with the bloodlust.

[Neurath]

According to this report by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/04/11/2869457.htm) Mr. Jatuporn is now asking for precisely what he claims to be protesting about - intervention by a certain someone to stop social dislocation/bloodshed. I thought this type of thing was precisely what he, Nattawut, Weng and Veera claimed to be 'violently' against?

Any port in a storm eh? [added]

Edited April 11, 2010 by Neurath

[neverdie]

8 Years in Thailand and this is indeed my very saddest day.

I had only commented to a friend yesterday that Kyrgyzstan had some 60+ people killed & hundreds injured in a coup this past week and thank god that had not happened here and I see this.

What a very sorry sad start to the normally most enjoyable holiday time in this lovely country now many homes will be in deep mourning and hopefully that is enough unfortunately both sides seem bent on destruction and this is a major nail to any progress here, in fact huge strides backwards.

I had always said this is where I would end my days, sadly I am now having to rethink that.

I don't know how this can be resolved but surely bloodshed is not he way?

As usual, when you post its normally something of substance. Well said sir .

Perhaps this is also the time for some of the posters in here who have been spraying words accross dozens of pages, to stop and look within for a while.

[phuketrichard]

It's tragic that 11 have died so far. At least ten times that many will die in traffic accidents in the next week. Both are unnecessary.

try 30 times

Its sad whats going on but it has been brewing since the day Thaksin was kicked out.

The only question is how can it end peacefully and with both sides not getting screwed.

[bubba]

what rock do you live under? did you somehow miss the publicly televised negotiations that went on for several days between the government and red shirts? problem is, the red shirt leaders care about one thing only and it's certainly NOT the poor or the farmers. The government didn't crack down on the protesters in order to stay in power but rather to liberate Bangkok from a paid mob that has caused massive disruptions in the capitol of the nation. Calling the PM a dictator really makes you look quite ignorant- the legitimacy of this government has been verified as nauseum. No one had to die today- the red mob had plenty of time and warnings to leave. They chose to stay and fight and die while their fugitive criminal leader relaxes in Dubai. I feel sorry for these gullible pawns who have wasted their lives for something they don't even understand.

Since when was the government handed a carte-blanche to kill Thai civilians? If they are doing something against the law, they should be arrested and brought into court in front of a judge. Not just shot on the streets.

The government's legitimacy has not been verified. That's however precisely what the people are asking for. If you are a legitimate government, hold elections and legitimize yourself. Abhisit should have nothing to fear if the people are behind him.

Nobody is being paid to come demonstrate. Either provide proof or stop lying. All they have been given is money to pay for gas to drive to Bangkok.

Since when were red shirts given a carte blanche to invade bangkok,

bring the city to a stand still? invade gov't office? shut down the

center of Bangkok? steal army supplies (see video above of protestor

using a military shield)? toss fires bomb? launch grenades at random

targets? what kind of ....... are these people from?

Nothing you say here or the hordes of other bloodthirsty posters have said, justifies a government using it's MILITARY to kill it's own people.

Go to bangkok and claim your prize. The mutilated bodies of the dead. They are your trophies in your great victory of government violence on it's people.

It looked to me last night as if Jatuporn had already done that, as I watched him parade the corpses of his dead martyrs around on stage. They even pulled the shroud back from the bodies' faces and invited at least a dozen photographers up on stage to take photos, while Jatuporn strutted around crowing and whipping the crowd into a frenzy...using corpses on stage as some sort of trophy. Jatuporn has already claimed the "prizes", taking the bodies out of a hospital morgue so that he could use them in his own version of PR.

Except perhaps in upcountry Afghanistan as practiced by Taliban, I have never seen such an atrocious and barbaric use of corpses as trophies. These people had died in their cause. Whether or not you believe in their cause, as human beings the deceased deserve respect in their death. What sort of a person would use their bodies live and on stage in an atrocity exhibition?

I felt so sorry as I watched this on UDD TV, wondering if perhaps the families of the deceased were watching. At the same time, I felt disgust mixed with a tinge of fear as I saw Jatuporn parading the bodies on stage, strutting around, and shouting like a madman. Fear because if the red shirts and UDD have their way, this is a man who could potentially be the next Prime Minister of Thailand.

[Gold2005]

This is really bad and none of us like to see what is going on. There are some bad things happening that is for sure....however I do think we should also not allow ourselves to get too bogged down in just concentrating our minds on only negative and sad things happening in Thailand. This is only in various pockets of Bangkok and a few smaller places outside. Tragic and horrible.....but....The rest of Thailand; the majority of people are going on life as normal. So albeit this is all very sad and naturally worrying for anyone living here, it is not the whole big picture. Terrible yes, worrying yes, sad yes.... but life goes on and there are I believe 60 odd million people in Thailand and they are not involved. Remember the race riots in the UK in the 80's: 650 properties burnt, widespread looting and a policeman had his head cut off and put on a 16 foot pole then used to taunt police. His name was PC Blakelock if any remember those disturbing times. USA riots, numerous dead and injured, looting and mayhem. The French riots even worse. Australian race problems, Italy etc etc.... All countries have problems and often it turns to violence. Thailand is not the only country to have such problems. Different reasons but violence is violence. It is not nice to see. But sadly, its how human beings behave sometimes. How many people die of gun related crimes every day in the USA. How many people stabbed on a Friday night in England. Football match violence..........the list goes on. Does it mean the end is coming. No of course not. And people still go to the USA and Europe on holiday, albeit violence is common. Life goes on. Of course...I do not wish to sound like I am in anyway trivialising the terrible and shocking past few days here, but we must be clear headed about this and not get carried away with only bad bad bad. No one can predict the future and we can only hope it gets better. I am optimistic. This is a tiny percentage of what is going on in Thailand right now. Lets hope they start to calm down and lets hope things get resolved. Sure it is terrible and not good for Thailand or anyone.....but keep optimistic ! Hope is all we have in life when things go bad !

Edited April 11, 2010 by Gold2005

[4223rhodes]

It is unfortunate when a government uses its military against its own people. A government is meant to control its military in a democracy. Unfortunately, the military controls its government in Thailand. The much-hated PM Abhisit sleeps with the military, eats with the military, laughs with the military, doles out billions to his military. Abhisit and his military buds have no remorse for what they have done and they never will.