Buddhist Meditation Experience Versus Dmt

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Greetings

I am probably breaking some rules but something I am very curious about so will ask.

A lot of documentaries and discussion about DMT or Dimethyltryptamine.

Many call it a natural neurotransmitter chemical in most living things that when taken in certain ways provides an alternate reality and interaction at a "spiritual" level. Supposedly the Pineal gland is actuated from the chemical. A Dr. Rick Strassman is considered the pioneering researcher from UNM (Univ. New Mexico US)

I personally don't have any experience or plan to try it but am curious if any accomplished buddhist monks or practioners have tried it or written about it.

Back in the 60's various researchers took LSD to Tibet and the monks were not that impressed or affected. Curious if any experimentation has occurred and what to make of it.

There are some researchers in the US and Europe really talking it up as a potential gateway to enlightenment.

Curious if any accomplished Buddhist's think its a worthwhile? , tangent?, shortcut?, dead end?, etc?

This is the same active ingredient used by Shamans in the Amazon with an herb called Ayahuasca.

Any ideas or comments?

[luangtom]

Just what sort of response are you trolling for? Do you honestly expect someone of Spiritual enlightenment to even garner a response to something of this nature? Short-cuts to nibbana? Huh?

[agent69]

Let's just say that you can get to the state where a lot would describe as the same as taking some drugs by meditation. but that's besides the point of meditation in the Buddhist way. You don't meditate to get high. You take the note of it and then get pass it. If you took drugs I guess you won't be in control of yourself. You are pretty much going to be stuck in that trance state and never reach the that enlightenment.

I do not drink. I always tell everyone that it's more fun going to a party sober.

Edited April 16, 2010 by agent69

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

I didn't have any particular expectation. How can a person seek enlightenment or truth if they don't consider all possible paths?

This chemical is a natural neuro transmitter that is thought to cause the near death experience when the Pineal gland is overwhelmed with this serotonin like molecule.

The researcher Dr. Strassman is a Zen Buddhist and thinks there is some crossover between the experiences.

Probably not the right forum to enquire about this but who knows. Pardon my question if it bothers anyone.

[sabaijai]

While there may be some overlap between psychedelic drug experiences and some experiences that arise in meditation, I think these are very, very limited in scope. The effects of DMT in particular are so scattered and overwhelming that, in my opinion, they bear virtually no relation to Buddhist wisdom.

The purpose of meditation is simply to attain right view. No drug that I know of can priovde that.

Aside: There's no scientific evidence to suggest that the pineal gland has anything more than a very limited biological function related to sleep and photoperiodic cycles.

[Yamantaka]

"Mind expanding" drugs, with which I had too much experience in the 60's, do not take one to the same mental state as does meditation which I learned over thirty years ago and have been teaching sporadically for over twenty years. Both do drastic things to the mind but meditation is about developing superior control over the mind and its processes while chemicals push the mind to the brink of an abyss into which the user can only peer, watching what happens. The former is an exercise to develop strength while the latter is an activity of observation.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Sure all good points. I have no idea at all. It really just raises more questions for me about the nature of consciousness.

I have studied yoga for decades and it calms and focuses my mind and balances my body. Does yoga and meditation really proven to do much beyond a placebo? In my mind I think they do but the human mind can be amazingly delusional and self serving also.

What interested me about this question was accounts that early psychedelics like LSD did not affect monks consciousness. Can an strongly trained mind of an practiced monk over power physical chemistry? or choose to?

I have sat with a teacher in India who attained something I can't measure or wrap my mind around and he said he needed to sit in a room for 12 years. He told me if only he knew then what he knows now he would not have had to sit for so long. He said it was really very easy to attain the same result without the work. I want to know what he knows now but maybe I am not old school enough to follow his same path.

supposedly but I cannot verify this of course

"American psychedelic pioneer and DMT guru Terence McKenna gave DMT to a Tibetan Buddhist monk, and after the experience was over, the monk told McKenna that it brought him to a place the Buddhists had seen many times through meditation, but he also stated that it was about as far as one could go into the Bardo and still return to the physical plane afterward"

I have tried lots of things like fasting, sweat lodges, purification rituals, trance etc and there is definitely some component of inducing favorable chemistry from outside behavior to find higher states of internal chemistry.

Personally I have never tried psychedelics unless one considers marijuana. Most don't consider it a psychedelic but it does warp a person for good or bad. Going to far outer whatever with DMT scares the crap out of me but what a fascinating concept to debrief someone of practiced consciousness who is not afraid. The outer edge of the bardo? Would make a good documentary.

I think it's entirely possible science figures out how to replicate extreme states or limits of practiced/desirable consciousness chemically, energetically etc in the future. Going forward 20, 50 or 100 years its pretty hard to believe they will not.

Thanks for the thoughtful replies

Edited April 17, 2010 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[rockyysdt]

I have studied yoga for decades and it calms and focuses my mind and balances my body. Does yoga and meditation really proven to do much beyond a placebo? In my mind I think they do but the human mind can be amazingly delusional and self serving also.

What interested me about this question was accounts that early psychedelics like LSD did not affect monks consciousness. Can an strongly trained mind of an practiced monk over power physical chemistry? or choose to?

I have tried lots of things like fasting, sweat lodges, purification rituals, trance etc and there is definitely some component of inducing favorable chemistry from outside behavior to find higher states of internal chemistry.

I think it's entirely possible science figures out how to replicate extreme states or limits of practiced/desirable consciousness chemically, energetically etc in the future. Going forward 20, 50 or 100 years its pretty hard to believe they will not.

I suppose none of us will ever know.

The only thing which comes to mind is that the DMT induced state seems to equate to or is equivalent to the Second Tetrad of Anapanasati where one experiences rapture & bliss.

Although considered by some as a reward for the many hours spent in contemplation, the Second Tetrad is quite low on the path when journeying through four Satipatthanas and sixteen Phases of Anapanasati.

Also many consider that travelers are in great danger of becoming stuck at this level due to attachment to rapture & bliss.

The noble path involves many more things such as selflessness, loving kindness, rightful action, purification from ill deeds, & extinguishment of ego.

Edited April 17, 2010 by rockyysdt

[agent69]

Also many consider that travelers are in great danger of becoming stuck at this level due to attachment to rapture & bliss.

One may say it is as addictive as drugs.