Thai Vs. Farang Vanity , Culture And Values

[tonititan]

Probably 90% of 18 year old Americans have already used hard drugs and also sexually active.

Probably not. I think your estimate is WAY off there.

I also think the American model for marriage is ridiculous. 50% divorce rates is just absurd. Divorce is practically a right of passage these days among liberal white Americans. Give me Thailand and their system of marriage any day of the week.

What, do you mean the system of marrying a woman, and then if you're not happy, just taking on additional wives or girlfriends? Which "system" are you referring to exactly?

[Chunky1]

My post got deleted so I don't think we are allowed to discuss these, apparently evil, topics.

Edited May 10, 2010 by Chunky1

[F1fanatic]

I think it also has to be said that it is incredibly rare in the West for a mother to give up her children to the grandparents to look after, so that she can go 'elsewhere' to earn money for the parents and children. Mother/child bonds are (as far as I can see) far stronger in the West.

The way the children still believe they must look after the mother (they barely knew) says a lot about indoctrination, not family values.

Times are changing though. For the worse IMO, as Thailand doesn't have a welfare network.

[Heng]

ok Boo, you tell me that people in the west ( and North America in particular ) have the same family values as in Thailand. When i see young people like yourself and others looking after their parents in old age IN THEIR HOMES, rather than shuffling them off to an " old age ", or residents home, then your argument will have the veracity you desire... will you look after your parents when they are infirm.. in YOUR HOME??

Well of course it's a case of economics isn't it? If Thailand had a system of old people's homes ( which it doesn't) how many Thais could actually afford to have their parents stay in one if the cost was proportionate to the west?

The same with the old adage of the close Thai family all living together. Again, a huge number of low wage earners simply can't afford any other option. Their salary simply goes on the basics of living hand to mouth every month. Nothing to do with family values in my humble opinion.

Probably not a black and white call either way, but the fact that large numbers of relatively well to do and wealthy Thais also take care of their parents and often grandparents would suggest that it's not simply economics. Although I'm sure the cynics would say 'heck, of course so you can make sure you can a piece of that inheritance!'

I'm sure the cynics would also point out that the large number of relatively well to do and wealthy Thais taking care of their parents usually also have a maid or three....

It's all relative as household employees become affordable (to whatever class you belong to) as soon as you have 6,000 Baht of disposable income per month.

We (my family, not speaking for the any broad group or subgroup) appreciate independence as much as anyone, but sooner or later, old folks become just as unable to care for themselves as infants and toddlers.

[Heng]

It also has a lot to do with the size of the family. If you have 10 family members living in close proximity, it is not extraordinarily difficult to take care of an elderly parent. The task can be shared among many people. If you are only 1 person trying to take care of an invalid parent while at the same time taking care of 2 children and working a job, the demands can simply be impossible.

Family size aside, I don't think that old age or being an invalid in any situation should mean you're the first one to be cast off the ship.

[wintermute]

It also has a lot to do with the size of the family. If you have 10 family members living in close proximity, it is not extraordinarily difficult to take care of an elderly parent. The task can be shared among many people. If you are only 1 person trying to take care of an invalid parent while at the same time taking care of 2 children and working a job, the demands can simply be impossible.

Family size aside, I don't think that old age or being an invalid in any situation should mean you're the first one to be cast off the ship.

Even wolf packs take care of the invalid or old. Seeing as how quite a few modern western societies like the U.S. treat the old and invalid with a certain amount of annoyance and disdain it's something to think about.

[CMX]

Back in Europe, tens of thousands died in the (dog days) heat wave of '03. The French were scandalized when they discovered that most of their deceased were old folks who were alone! Seems that there had occurred a breakdown in extended families caring for each other in a Latin country! Newspapers complained bitterly about the loss. (Which had been noted by sociologists long before.)

Truth is that virtually all societies have been strongly family oriented. Then comes industrialization, transportation, and youngsters moving away for work. Physical distance tears at the family structure.

For a generation or two, habits don't change. Most French folks load the transportation systems at holidays to visit the family gathering place still, Chinese too. But that's not the same as living together within easy reach.

I read some years ago that Japan seems to be the only nation that has retained strong extended family traditions. In most industrialized and post-industrialized nations, the bounds are loosened increasingly once modernization has set in. Thais are too new to industrialization to have moved away from retaining (with the usual exceptions) strong family feelings; they are an anchor in a sea of change. For those of who are romantic or nostalgic, this seems wonderful. For westerners who come from spacious nations of wealth, it seems bothersome and a little surprising. Culture clash is normal. So it goes.

Edited May 10, 2010 by CMX

[cognos]

CMX.. excellent/astute/intelligent/well thought out observations!!.. but we only have to see the example of Boo too see that, in the "storm" of the me - first, post - industrial, materialistic "malaise" that seems to spread like a virulent form of malignant cancer, there still exists the oasis of empathy in families like Boo's..

.. it makes one feel good, because isn't that what life is all about?.. helping others??

.. now sometimes because of extenuating circumstances mentioned previously, folks cannot look after their parents..WHEREVER that may be in the world..point taken..

.. in the case of my father in law ( age 82, somewhat invalid, in Phuket), although there are 9 children, he prefers to stay in his own home, and one his daughters lives there with her family..however every few months ( as Heng says) he is "shared", and he goes to another sisters for a month or so, 3 or 4 times a year..

.. it is INTERESTING that he ( Prasit ) NEVER goes to the other two sisters houses in the same area, although they are only meters away.. one lives in a veritable mansion ( you know those ones).. but my wife tells me ( and I can see plainly) that the place he prefers away from his own home is where the most "jai dee" sister lives ( they are already pretty darned jai dee though), albeit in a very modest home with a concrete floor, compared to the other sisters in their much more opulent surroundings.

home is where the heart is

[wintermute]

.. in the case of my father in law ( age 82, somewhat invalid, in Phuket), although there are 9 children, he prefers to stay in his own home, and one his daughters lives there with her family..however every few months ( as Heng says) he is "shared", and he goes to another sisters for a month or so, 3 or 4 times a year..

whoa, intriguing. I have a thai family member that's 101 years old too. He's ancient and can cast magic. However, he's secluded into a similar paganistic ritual where we can only pray to the farang as to what the ultimate outcome can be.

[cognos]

Traffic Jams - Thais dont seem to get overly upset, my first traffic jam in Thailand many years ago, had me sitting in the middle of it for nearly an hour barely moving, all this because of an accident, the Thai passengers didn't blink an eyelid, just hopped out of the car and went and bought some food at a roadside stall and sat on the grass under a tree and just waited until the problem was resolved. The Thai is the winner, why get upset about something you can't change.

In Australia, it would have had an entirely different response with a bit of road rage thrown in, some swearing and maybe even fisticuffs.

Ain't THAT the truth! Same here in Canada, and even worse in the USA. And, it's not because we are not conditioned to heavy traffic. We are, it's just that many people get angry about it in North America. Asians as a whole seem to have more patience.

..and i wonder WHY they have so much more patience? perhaps thats ANOTHER reason why so many of us Caucasions are with Asian ladies..the patience rubs off after a while..but not right away..

.. One time after returning from LOS, a friend picked me up at the airport.. she was Chinese.. and not a perfect driver albeit.. she made a very minor driving infraction and a guy in another car freaked out!! I leaned out the window and said to him.. " you need to go to Thailand buddy, and relax a little "..he screamed out.." only idiots go to Thailand !! " I replied ( stupidly).. that he was the biggest idiot of all, but it was probably me for taking the bait. Needless to say, we were both stupid enough to almost come to fisticuffs at the next light.

..so much for the mellow state I felt after returning from Thailand to farangland.. OY

[wintermute]

Traffic Jams - Thais dont seem to get overly upset, my first traffic jam in Thailand many years ago, had me sitting in the middle of it for nearly an hour barely moving, all this because of an accident, the Thai passengers didn't blink an eyelid, just hopped out of the car and went and bought some food at a roadside stall and sat on the grass under a tree and just waited until the problem was resolved. The Thai is the winner, why get upset about something you can't change.

In Australia, it would have had an entirely different response with a bit of road rage thrown in, some swearing and maybe even fisticuffs.

Ain't THAT the truth! Same here in Canada, and even worse in the USA. And, it's not because we are not conditioned to heavy traffic. We are, it's just that many people get angry about it in North America. Asians as a whole seem to have more patience.

..and i wonder WHY they have so much more patience? perhaps thats ANOTHER reason why so many of us Caucasions are with Asian ladies..the patience rubs off after a while..but not right away..

.. One time after returning from LOS, a friend picked me up at the airport.. she was Chinese.. and not a perfect driver albeit.. she made a very minor driving infraction and a guy in another car freaked out!! I leaned out the window and said to him.. " you need to go to Thailand buddy, and relax a little "..he screamed out.." only idiots go to Thailand !! " I replied ( stupidly).. that he was the biggest idiot of all, but it was probably me for taking the bait. Needless to say, we were both stupid enough to almost come to fisticuffs at the next light.

..so much for the mellow state I felt after returning from Thailand to farangland.. OY

Whoa..really? Maybe you should have stood up to these heathens by flexing your superior genealogy and masculinity? Thou. art. Sparta. after all. A stalwart western tradition of instinct and noble provocation. The noble breadth of your genealogy supersedes any degenerate meddling. Slap the genetic spatula out of the mud races hand and assert your superiority.

You missed a grand opportunity.

[cognos]

but I'm trying to change.. and they always say you can't change others.. however.. by showing someone a good example..they sometimes appreciate that example.. and perform the sincerest form of flattery towards you... IMITATION

monkey see, monkey do

[cognos]

here's one..the Thai - CHINESE ( sorry folks..blush ) habit of slurping/chewing food out loud, the louder the better..showing others at the table that the food is (delicious) aroy mak loy..

oops, i ( farang) do that a little too, and the Thai wife gently scolds me..YIKES, we're MUTATING into each other's culture (shock)

opposites attract

[wintermute]

here's one..the Thai - CHINESE ( sorry folks..blush ) habit of slurping/chewing food out loud, the louder the better..showing others at the table that the food is (delicious) aroy mak loy..

oops, i ( farang) do that a little too, and the Thai wife gently scolds me..YIKES, we're MUTATING into each other's culture (shock)

opposites attract

Excellent! Or maybe? It's vulgar to be sure... Maybe you should have gently scolded her or slapped her upside the face to remind her who's the master her? It's the only appropriate step to take. You the man! Dawg!

[cognos]

how about the contrast of Thai and farang soaps?? for some reason, i cannot tolerate farang soaps, but rather enjoy the Thai soaps.. what gives here?

..perhaps the Thai soaps are closer to the "reality" of hi so BKK folks( read: Tata Young), where the farang soaps are just too frickin' bogus/depressing to relate to??

off topic: wintermute.. where on earth did you get that avatar from?

signed: appreciation

[endure]

how about the contrast of Thai and farang soaps?? for some reason, i cannot tolerate farang soaps, but rather enjoy the Thai soaps.. what gives here?

..perhaps the Thai soaps are closer to the "reality" of hi so BKK folks( read: Tata Young), where the farang soaps are just too frickin' bogus/depressing to relate to??

When my Thai mate first arrived in the UK 20+ years ago the first thing his wife did was to suss out all the English soaps. She faithfully and regularly watched them all. She couldn't speak a word of English but it didn't seem to make any difference at all. Nowadays she watches all the Thai soaps over the net but still watches the UK soaps as well.

[CHINWA]

^^^talk for yourself. My family in UK is closer than my husbands in Thailand & certainly has more genuine like & respect for each other.

I just laugh at all these comments about how things lack in the west blah blah, they are based on your own personal experiences, which has zilch to do with other peoples families in Thailand or their own country.

Interpretation problems? Duh, That was the idea of the poster, for the readers to talk about their own personal experiences!!!.

[backsoon]

OP, good post. Good examples.... But you stopped short of culture?

My belief is, the more is talked about it, the more one sees no substance there.

Customs, values, vanities, traditional thinking, - OK. But Culture? What culture?...

Oh, and if you are itching for an argument, start with your definition first...

[cognos]

OP, good post. Good examples.... But you stopped short of culture?

My belief is, the more is talked about it, the more one sees no substance there.

Customs, values, vanities, traditional thinking, - OK. But Culture? What culture?...

Oh, and if you are itching for an argument, start with your definition first...

..sometimes i feel there is no culture here in Canada.. just a hodge - podge of nationalities, and materialism run amok..like a bucket of puke thrown against a wall.. is it still art/culture ??

..what IS culture? perhaps it is the concomitant "brew" of a countries past experiences, actions, preferences, shared experiences of common values which form the mileau, or tapestry, or "flavour" of the indiginous peoples of said country..

..people seem to complain that "farangism" is undermining the fragile superstructure of the Thai culture, thus rendering it to pointing in a "western direction" of fast food and "angry" drivers..stressed families with no perceived time to smell the roses.. and always running "late".. doing what we don't want to do, and not doing what we want to do.

.. perhaps mixed with the inherent human nature of Thais, being only human, to "get ahead".. but does getting ahead mean trillions of plastic bags strewn about?

..Thailand's culture will remain, albeit "hidden" away in smaller and smaller pockets, from the old houses along the canals of BKK, to the local markets of Khon Kaen or Roi Et, to the isolated fishing villages of small islands..

..BUT.. as the world becomes globalized, lets hope that the best of Thailand "culture" ( whatever that really means) is not "dumbed down" to the lowest common denominator of a Starbucks Coffee shop, with the sterile and "could be anywhere in the world" folks of uncertain origin and agenda, lining up for "nothing".

[IanForbes]

OP, good post. Good examples.... But you stopped short of culture?

My belief is, the more is talked about it, the more one sees no substance there.

Customs, values, vanities, traditional thinking, - OK. But Culture? What culture?...

Oh, and if you are itching for an argument, start with your definition first...

..sometimes i feel there is no culture here in Canada.. just a hodge - podge of nationalities, and materialism run amok..like a bucket of puke thrown against a wall.. is it still art/culture ??

..what IS culture? perhaps it is the concomitant "brew" of a countries past experiences, actions, preferences, shared experiences of common values which form the mileau, or tapestry, or "flavour" of the indiginous peoples of said country..

True, but only because we have a bunch of politically correct media trying to keep everybody from thinking on their own. The Catholic church has done a pretty good job of enforcing their bigotted beliefs everywhere they've run amok. The other Christian churches are not far behind and we've got a bunch of hypocrites running North America.

[moe666]

Oh please, my girlfriend in Thailand is constantly pissed at her sisters who have no money or very little. These women are on the phone asking her for money with out much regard for her and her own family. She gives one sister money for their mom but often wonders were the money went. The money given directly to the sick mom is often stolen while she is asleep.

Members of the family will come and stay for long periods of time but with no offer to pay for food or utilities.

In the end family values or what ever that means varies from one family to another, there is no broad brush to paint every Thai.

[cognos]

Oh please, my girlfriend in Thailand is constantly pissed at her sisters who have no money or very little. These women are on the phone asking her for money with out much regard for her and her own family. She gives one sister money for their mom but often wonders were the money went. The money given directly to the sick mom is often stolen while she is asleep.

Members of the family will come and stay for long periods of time but with no offer to pay for food or utilities.

In the end family values or what ever that means varies from one family to another, there is no broad brush to paint every Thai.

.. if that is true.. then.. ..taken to the extreme..( as i am wont to do)..each family in Thailand would have

unique attitudes, values, goals and practices that would characterize them and them only,

..so therefore..there would be no shared comprehensive integrated pattern of human knowledge, beliefs or behaviour within SPECIFIC families that would result in some sort of shared value system??

way above my head

[cognos]

here's a similarity.. losing face.. its made up to be such a big deal in LOS, and it is.. but the dirty "secret" is that it is also a big deal in the west! ( although many would argue wrongly that it is not)

little known fact?

[sendbaht]

We have so much to learn for the Thai people. Makes for one of the benifits living here.

As a whole Thai people put one BIG smile on my face.

[daoyai]

OP, good post. Good examples.... But you stopped short of culture?

My belief is, the more is talked about it, the more one sees no substance there.

Customs, values, vanities, traditional thinking, - OK. But Culture? What culture?...

Oh, and if you are itching for an argument, start with your definition first...

..sometimes i feel there is no culture here in Canada.. just a hodge - podge of nationalities, and materialism run amok..like a bucket of puke thrown against a wall.. is it still art/culture ??

..what IS culture? perhaps it is the concomitant "brew" of a countries past experiences, actions, preferences, shared experiences of common values which form the mileau, or tapestry, or "flavour" of the indiginous peoples of said country..

..people seem to complain that "farangism" is undermining the fragile superstructure of the Thai culture, thus rendering it to pointing in a "western direction" of fast food and "angry" drivers..stressed families with no perceived time to smell the roses.. and always running "late".. doing what we don't want to do, and not doing what we want to do.

.. perhaps mixed with the inherent human nature of Thais, being only human, to "get ahead".. but does getting ahead mean trillions of plastic bags strewn about?

..Thailand's culture will remain, albeit "hidden" away in smaller and smaller pockets, from the old houses along the canals of BKK, to the local markets of Khon Kaen or Roi Et, to the isolated fishing villages of small islands..

..BUT.. as the world becomes globalized, lets hope that the best of Thailand "culture" ( whatever that really means) is not "dumbed down" to the lowest common denominator of a Starbucks Coffee shop, with the sterile and "could be anywhere in the world" folks of uncertain origin and agenda, lining up for "nothing".

Everyplace has a "culture" a living culture changes and adapts constantly, as an example, McDonalds is now part of Thai culture as are all the western influences, the fact that this somehow offends you is irrelevent. "Culture" is everything and anything. How is Starbucks "dumbed down" you either like their products and buy them or you don't. To feel somehow culturally superior to someone that goes to Starbucks is just wrong.

[cognos]

well i'm not a coffee drinker, and if i was.. i wouldn't drink a "blend"..sorry if i offended you.. perhaps "dumbed down" is not the right word.. how about "worldly"?

[daoyai]

Was not offended in the least. I was just expressing my view on what is "culture". In some places, Starbugs is the best coffee in town, not the case where I live. I don't go there, but they are ok in a pinch. As you are not a coffeedrinker, how do you know you wouldn't "blend"? (right now am drinking a blend of a medium and dark roast hilltribe arabica).

[kevozman1]

I think there are good sides to Western and Thai.

Love the fun attitude, community spirit, and laid back attitude in Thailand.

Love the intelligent, focused and moral ways in the West.