Reds Back Out In Chiang Mai

[slapout]

The peaceful rallies, are advertised as a show of protest or support depending on who is speaking. It does seem that the gatherings are organized to interfere with businesses, public convenience, etc. If this group or any other group, want to have a get together, and a march, the least they could do is, disrupt as little as possible, traffic, business, the public both tourist and local, etc. Their past record of inciting people toward violence, requires some damage control, before they will be seen in a positive light, by many.

[elektrified]

I saw them at Pratu Taphae Saturday night. I don't see how you thought it was "frightening" at all.

[fcgprg]

Scare mongering , i have never had any problems with the red shirt people .Stay out of it and you will be fine remember we are guests in the country .

[trainman34014]

I suppose it all comes down to whether one trusts in democracy or not.

The leaders in Thailand (elected, and otherwise) have never trusted in democracy (including especially the current PM)

For me the events of the last several years has confirmed that no one group has a clear view of what's 'right', and therefore I think it's best to trust in the people as a whole - it's their country after all.

The best hope for Thailand's future is for election results to be allowed to stand without interference - let the people elect and remove their leaders according to their collective will.

For those who disagree with the result of elections, they can highlight what they perceive as the wrongs of the government of the day, and hope that the people agree with them at the next election.

(it's time PAD, UDD, politicians, the military and all the other players in the shadows adhered to that basic democracy concept, but unfortunately until an election is held that process cannot even start, because the current government is an extension of the illegal 2006 military coup)

Ulysses G: As for the reasons for the pent up anger underlying the May 19 burnings, I think that is left for another place, as there is no hope of getting to the underlying causes in this forum.

Agree with almost every word but it's the impossible dream in Thailand at this time. Does anyone really believe that if there were an election tomorrow that the 'people' would be allowed to decide for themselves who was going to govern them? Does anyone expect all the corrupt Politicians,BIB, Military, so called 'Elite' etc etc to just stand aside and let the 'people' have their way? Maybe I'm missing something but I can't see it happening in my lifetime;and I reckon I've got a good 20 years left in me.

[philw]

The ignorant attacks by some redshirts does not define their whole movement, and to continually emphasize them plays right into the hands of those who are the real problem in Thailand.

A lot of us were sympathetic before they turned down the PM's peace deal and before May 19, but actions speak louder than words. I'm afraid that they will be forever defined by their actions on that terrible day.

As also will the Army, the Prime Minister and the Government ......

[uptheos]

They were selling T-Shirts with the slogan "I am Red". Why they all want to publicise their marijuana consumption, I'm not sure.

Did they have them in yellow?

[Theoutsider]

As long as they dont use their PA system for loud karaoke outside my hotel i will be fine:lol:. Are they going to have their 10 tv channels back on the air please no.

[gotlost]

There was a ton of them at Thapae Gate last night with redshirt speakers on stage and selling Thaksin T shirts - etc. They behaved themselves though.

How many T shirts did the tourist pick up?

..well not so funny..actually it was very intimidating on their part..200+ of them waving flags, carrying banners and clappers..an entourage just walking en masse the whole width of the Walking Street blocking the way for folk wanting to walk in either direction..every 50m or so they would stop and block the whole road whilst they repeated their childish chants then move on. Many foreign visitors were visually stunned and scared of what they were confronted with and looked for reassurance.

Next time why not try talking with them? You might be surprised

Fear of the unknown often followed by dehumanising of 'the other' - just perpetuates the great divide - an old tactic that allows the bad guys to maintain control through repression

I agree with you on your thoughts. Most people when confronted with the dark tend not to stay in the light and never gets to understand the their unknown. Love them or hate them the Red Shirts will be in Chiang Mai in some forum or another long after we are gone.

[CMX]

While we're refining issues so well, I wonder if it is not true that charismatic leaders, posing as patriots, do not always or often vilify minorities. The popular appeal of criticizing or punishing unpopular causes and peoples is part of history since ever, and today, by inference or specifically, is being carried out. Has nothing to do with Left or Right, Red, Yellow or Green - just how extreme or using it as a tactic.

I give you, in the U.S., a very hot issue of "illegal aliens" (Mexicans mostly, without papers), which is not unlike the same nation back around 1900 when ALL Chinese were banned from immigrating. In France today, we're throwing out Romas to much popular applause, and the expression "Paki" in G.B. is not generally accepted as a high compliment. Australia just now is going to "tighten" immigration laws, according to half the rhetoric. Appealing to those who fear, hate, or dislike others is grist for all political mills without exception. I leave to the imagination teachings of militant (as opposed to mainstream) Islam.

One must admit that Yellows, like Royalists of olde in Jolly Olde, have not just now taken up the tactic of Puritanical extremism, though regular appeals to tradition without change are probably what entices and reassures the foreign population here. I heard of a professor of "political science" once who always said that it boils down to whose ox gets gored.

Edited August 23, 2010 by CMX

[CMX]

Just saw something to presume to add:

Pictures sell best if they are sensational, which is why televised news is so violent. We have none of those who died in the dark of bullet wounds, no public record of their causes, no track of valid investigations (which are under of way, we know, and understand that such volatile issues are best left to the authorities). But I think that photos of those victims might be far more illustrative of what horrors went on there than property damage.

What however we do not know is who precisely among which group is responsible. To claim otherwise, to say "they" did it, all of they, or the cause of they, must be born of pure prejudice, or need to believe, for such judgment is without foundation.

[gotlost]

On the other side I wounder if the Red Shirts ever thought of setting up stalls at the Sunday walking street market and Chang Klan RD to sell their T Shirts, wares and for serious PR.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Here we go again…to compare 'Red Shirts' with Hitler's movement is puerile… as an ex-journalist you should keep you balance and perspective - you don't contribute to the Chiang Mai Mail do you?

Does anyone really think the problems 'went away' because of the events in Krung Thep?

I have consistently posted against violence and they really made HUGE errors of judgment down there - an anti-violence Ghandi-ish movement would have been far more intelligent and meaningful.

Some of the actions were despicable – on both sides – shooting people in the head whilst being interviewed isn’t exactly the epitome of democracy is it? however the burnings etc. were a horror we should all despise.

However, they have some valid points and to dismiss them is foolhardy - it isn't over...

I am also not a Thaksin apologist before the venom of some yellows start hollering that all red sympathizers are Thaksinites.

A fair and honest (TIT I know) general election (monitored by an outisde agency - maybe the UN) might take some of the sting out of the situation – after all the government hasn’t been elected – let the people decide if they support the present government – if they do – then so be it.

I am more frightened of the rich manipulators in Krung Thep than I am of a gathering of protestors – you want frightening? Go see Mugabe’s thugs or the Talibans 'justice' – let’s keep perspective folks!

[ChiangMaiFun]

The ignorant attacks by some redshirts does not define their whole movement, and to continually emphasize them plays right into the hands of those who are the real problem in Thailand.

A lot of us were sympathetic before they turned down the PM's peace deal and before May 19, but actions speak louder than words. I'm afraid that they will be forever defined by their actions on that terrible day.

well... yes and no... many movements have had periods of violence and destruction (not saying I approve!) but the groundswell has proved positive in the end once the mob was controlled - think South Africa and many examples - todays terrorist is often tomorrow's respected Statesman - Ghadafi, Mandala etc. etc. The trouble after the dispersal will be forgotten 'IF" eventually a respected and honourable leader emerges who leads them to present their case by conviction and democracy - we should all, meantime, condemn all such violence but support change.

[Piengrudee]

RED are mostly poor and lowly educated people. If they could be a little richer & more educated, the RED problem will be solved.

[ChiangMaiFun]

RED are mostly poor and lowly educated people. If they could be a little richer & more educated, the RED problem will be solved.

I'm sure they would love to be rich and educated! and how do you propose to achieve this miracle? by re-distribution of wealth and justice to all people? sounds great - I'm all for it! :jap:

[Mapguy]

The rallies made the international news on Aljazeera this morning in a rather bland report.

[Piengrudee]

By re-distribution of wealth and justice to all people? Yes. Increase the tax for the rich, that will make the rich less rich. Free stuff for the poor; free food, house, bus, electricity, water, etc. Some already done by Mark government already like free electric, bus, water. Free schooling for the poor, that will make uneducated people educated. This again has been done by Mark government.

[ChiangMaiFun]

By re-distribution of wealth and justice to all people? Yes. Increase the tax for the rich, that will make the rich less rich. Free stuff for the poor; free food, house, bus, electricity, water, etc. Some already done by Mark government already like free electric, bus, water. Free schooling for the poor, that will make uneducated people educated. This again has been done by Mark government.

I agree - particularly more tax for the rich - but your belief that the present government is going to stand up for the poor and hit the rich and stop corruption is innocent and charming but never going to happen.

Thailand, whom we all love, is decades behind in almost all aspects particularly law and education.

They should start with banning censorship – allowing free speech? A good start? but I do not think it is going to change anytime soon unfortunately.

[ianf]

Here we go again…to compare 'Red Shirts' with Hitler's movement is puerile… as an ex-journalist you should keep you balance and perspective - you don't contribute to the Chiang Mai Mail do you?

Does anyone really think the problems 'went away' because of the events in Krung Thep?

I have consistently posted against violence and they really made HUGE errors of judgment down there - an anti-violence Ghandi-ish movement would have been far more intelligent and meaningful.

Some of the actions were despicable – on both sides – shooting people in the head whilst being interviewed isn’t exactly the epitome of democracy is it? however the burnings etc. were a horror we should all despise.

However, they have some valid points and to dismiss them is foolhardy - it isn't over...

I am also not a Thaksin apologist before the venom of some yellows start hollering that all red sympathizers are Thaksinites.

A fair and honest (TIT I know) general election (monitored by an outisde agency - maybe the UN) might take some of the sting out of the situation – after all the government hasn’t been elected – let the people decide if they support the present government – if they do – then so be it.

I am more frightened of the rich manipulators in Krung Thep than I am of a gathering of protestors – you want frightening? Go see Mugabe’s thugs or the Talibans 'justice' – let’s keep perspective folks!

Perhaps you should reread my post and see what I actually said rather than what you thought I said.

[ianf]

RED are mostly poor and lowly educated people. If they could be a little richer & more educated, the RED problem will be solved.

Fascism breeds amongst the uneducated and it were ever so......................

[jdinasia]

It's pretty stunning that someone who calls himself a journalist finds it strange that people engage in a political gathering, after months of martial law which banned gatherings of more than a handful of people.

You don't have to agree with them, or even like them; but subscribing to basic freedoms such as freedom of assembly and freedom of speech would suit anyone well.

Pity they don't subscribe to the same values.

Absolutely spot on SBK ----

They were gathered at their old stronghold behind Wat Phra Sing last night too ....Seemed relatively peaceful though .. and the barriers have not been re-erected.

[ogb]

RED are mostly poor and lowly educated people. If they could be a little richer & more educated, the RED problem will be solved.

Fascism breeds amongst the uneducated and it were ever so......................

Which 'educated' people do you think have got it right?

The likes of Veera Somkwamkid, Chamlong, Sondhi L, Piphob, Suriyasai & Co ?

People like Vasit Dejkunchorn, Rosana Tositrakul, Pramote Nakornthap, Chai-Anan Samudvanij, Pramual Wirutamasen?

or Jaruvan Maintaka (Auditor General for life) or Porntip Rojanasunan (with her GT200 majic wand) ?

or maybe those Facebook heroes who were cheering on the massacre of redshirts?

Those people have had access to a decent education and all the other privileges, yet they continually demostrate very warped ideas and actions.

The poor 'lowly educated', who not been given equal access to education, at least have an excuse for their occasional ignorant views (although they are learning fast) - what's the excuse for the likes of the above?

[jdinasia]

RED are mostly poor and lowly educated people. If they could be a little richer & more educated, the RED problem will be solved.

Fascism breeds amongst the uneducated and it were ever so......................

Which 'educated' people do you think have got it right?

The likes of Veera Somkwamkid, Chamlong, Sondhi L, Piphob, Suriyasai & Co ?

People like Vasit Dejkunchorn, Rosana Tositrakul, Pramote Nakornthap, Chai-Anan Samudvanij, Pramual Wirutamasen?

or Jaruvan Maintaka (Auditor General for life) or Porntip Rojanasunan (with her GT200 majic wand) ?

or maybe those Facebook heroes who were cheering on the massacre of redshirts?

Those people have had access to a decent education and all the other privileges, yet they continually demostrate very warped ideas and actions.

The poor 'lowly educated', who not been given equal access to education, at least have an excuse for their occasional ignorant views (although they are learning fast) - what's the excuse for the likes of the above?

Perhaps Abhisit and Korn might be better examples ....

Fascism and other radical groups do tend to have educated leadership. Then rely on the masses to support the warped messages they promote. The cult of personality that arises when the uneducated fall in behind a figurehead can be disturbing ANYWHERE in the world.

[georgie48]

There was a ton of them at Thapae Gate last night with redshirt speakers on stage and selling Thaksin T shirts - etc. They behaved themselves though.

How many T shirts did the tourist pick up?

..well not so funny..actually it was very intimidating on their part..200+ of them waving flags, carrying banners and clappers..an entourage just walking en masse the whole width of the Walking Street blocking the way for folk wanting to walk in either direction..every 50m or so they would stop and block the whole road whilst they repeated their childish chants then move on. Many foreign visitors were visually stunned and scared of what they were confronted with and looked for reassurance.

Next time why not try talking with them? You might be surprised

Fear of the unknown often followed by dehumanising of 'the other' - just perpetuates the great divide - an old tactic that allows the bad guys to maintain control through repression

try talking to the red shirts - we tried to talk to them when they the red shirts banned us from holding a gay pride - but they would not listen

Edited August 23, 2010 by georgie48

[Piengrudee]

Not only Red-shirt ban gay. Catholic too? Try ask the pope.

[ogb]

RED are mostly poor and lowly educated people. If they could be a little richer & more educated, the RED problem will be solved.

Fascism breeds amongst the uneducated and it were ever so......................

Which 'educated' people do you think have got it right?

The likes of Veera Somkwamkid, Chamlong, Sondhi L, Piphob, Suriyasai & Co ?

People like Vasit Dejkunchorn, Rosana Tositrakul, Pramote Nakornthap, Chai-Anan Samudvanij, Pramual Wirutamasen?

or Jaruvan Maintaka (Auditor General for life) or Porntip Rojanasunan (with her GT200 majic wand) ?

or maybe those Facebook heroes who were cheering on the massacre of redshirts?

Those people have had access to a decent education and all the other privileges, yet they continually demostrate very warped ideas and actions.

The poor 'lowly educated', who not been given equal access to education, at least have an excuse for their occasional ignorant views (although they are learning fast) - what's the excuse for the likes of the above?

Perhaps Abhisit and Korn might be better examples ....

Fascism and other radical groups do tend to have educated leadership. Then rely on the masses to support the warped messages they promote. The cult of personality that arises when the uneducated fall in behind a figurehead can be disturbing ANYWHERE in the world.

Abhisit and Korn both belong in that list.

A simple glance back at statements made by opposition leader Abhisit shows what a hypocrite he is.

Just one example after the Oct 2008 PAD protest:

"I had hoped that despite the mess we could have done this without violence. Unfortunately, the events of October 7 led to excessive violence by the state and that has pulled us into a completely new situation. I can't see any other way but for the government to show responsibility as any other democratic government would. In no democracy would you allow blatant abuses of power to carry on and on without resignations, or any other signs of responsibility, to ease tensions"

or how about these classics from Korn talking about the PAD protests and the PPP government (before they invaded the airports):

"It is remarkable and bitterly ironic how much damage the emergency decree has caused, relative to the protests that went before it"

"Many observers say that it is undemocratic for a crowd to call for the resignation of an elected government. I find that to be absurd. It is true that a government should only be removed through parliamentary process, but not true that this implies the general public cannot voice their desire for a change in government"

"Like many school boys, I have always been interested in war strategies and the PAD, with Maj-Gen Chamlong as their strategist, certainly think in those terms. Their move on Government House fits what is called the ``Death Ground'' strategy putting yourself in a situation where you have too much at stake to lose. Of course, once they decided on a strategy, they moved at lightning speed Blitzkreig; they kept their opponents on their heels, they shifted the battlefield and, most importantly, through all this, they compelled their opponents into making mistakes the heavy-handed police reaction and, disastrously, the announcement of the emergency decree that was ignored by the army and highlighted the government's lack of authority."

Since you brough up Democrat politicians, here's a couple of others you could add to the list, just for starters: Suthep Thaugsuban & Ong-art Klampaiboon

I won't bother commenting on the your 'cult of personality' remark for fear of breaching forum rules

Edited August 23, 2010 by ogb

[jdinasia]

Abhisit and Korn have stepped up to the plate when it comes to accepting responsibility imho ...

The different tactics used by the PAD and the Reds deserved and got different results. The previous Thaksin backed governments had options and blew it. The current government was given no options and maintained power. So far the current government has ended the concept of "mob rule" in Thailand and done so admirably. Are they perfect? Not even close! Is Suthep the hawk amongst the doves? Oh yeah!

The PAD played a tight game that they understood. They only had to hold out and discredit the Thaksin backed government. The Reds played a different game based on the need to place Thaksin (or his cronies) back in power before October. They did it through the threat of extreme violence which opened the door for a totally different response.

If the Reds had the same goals as the PAD and better strategists they could have had similar results. They didn't.

[0zz1]

By re-distribution of wealth and justice to all people? Yes. Increase the tax for the rich, that will make the rich less rich. Free stuff for the poor; free food, house, bus, electricity, water, etc. Some already done by Mark government already like free electric, bus, water. Free schooling for the poor, that will make uneducated people educated. This again has been done by Mark government.

I agree - particularly more tax for the rich - but your belief that the present government is going to stand up for the poor and hit the rich and stop corruption is innocent and charming but never going to happen.

Thailand, whom we all love, is decades behind in almost all aspects particularly law and education.

They should start with banning censorship – allowing free speech? A good start? but I do not think it is going to change anytime soon unfortunately.

Have to remember that Mark & Co has done great decision when they invested for free education in all Thai government schools until 15 years of age!

What greater investment can they do than education, and this is for the poor as rich kids will go to private schools anyway.

[uptheos]

The right to peaceful protest.

All protests cause inconvenience to some people.

[Jingthing]

The right to peaceful protest.

All protests cause inconvenience to some people.

Do you include the illegal occupation of Bangkok with that?