Thaksin To Return To Thailand If Pheu Thai Wins

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Papa said a few weeks ago he went back to work to feed them. Their shopping habits may be a bit tough on their weekly allowance though.

My portfolio just bounced a bit. Bless their cotton socks.

LONDON (MarketWatch) — Luxury-goods giant LVMH Moet Hennessy Louis Vuitton said Thursday its third-quarter sales rose 24% as wealthy customers snapped up designer watches and cases of Dom Perignon.

LVMH (FR:MC 111.90, +0.45, +0.40%) said the performance confirmed the trends seen in the first half of the year, with very strong growth across Asia

[hanuman1]

And how about this - I don't like Taksin either. Sorry. :jap:

OK, I'll bite. If you don't like Thaksin, then why do you like the red shirts? The red shirts are Thaksin, and Thaksin is the red shirts. They are they same thing. Inseparable. If you support one, you support the other. Your statement is a non sequitor.

The simple fact is, most of us here would support the reds if they would denounce Thaksin, but they will never do that. And therefore, the reds are an evil force that needs to be crushed, rather than a force for good and change.

I am always baffled by people who state they don't like Thaksin, but yet have sympathy for the reds. It's like saying you don't like rain but love rain. Where is the logic?

I just hope Thailand can withstand this test, keep the evil at bay, and come out stronger in the end after Thaksin is dead and buried. I want my children to grow up in country filled with hope and opportunity. If Thaksin is ever allowed to return, that dream is dead. The only person Thaksin will ever allow to have real opportunity is Thaksin.

Is it possible in your eyes to like a short, sharp downpour but dislike a constant drizzle? Then technically it is possible to say 'I like rain and I don't like rain'.

The fact that people may see it as illogical is frankly because of lazy thinking. Just like saying 'rain' means all kinds of rain, when it can just as well mean several types of rain, people cannot be bothered to entertain the idea that the meaning of 'red-shirts' means different things to different people.

But the equation Taksin=Redshirts=UDD=Terrorists is so simple and easy to remember without needing to bother with details, people just go with it because of that.

Some anti-redshirt obsessives have said they feel sympathy for the plight of the rural poor. Many of those people wear red shirts, so that automatically means they love Taksin and Terrorism according to the simple formula above. That also makes them unworthy of your sympathy any more. But maybe they just want a better life and have no better way to express this. Are they still terrorist supporters?

All it takes is for people to type a few more letters each time they accuse others of being terrorists/criminals etc. Sweeping statements along the lines of 'those redshirt idiots' are just demeaning to those who don redshirts to show their dissatisfaction with their lives at the hands of successive governments without resorting to violence or specifically forwarding the career of a convicted politician.

When they voted for Taksin/Pua Thai, they voted for whoever they thought would put more money in their pocket over the next governmental term. Guess what - that's why Republicans/Conservatives often vote the way they do too! Never thought you could have so much in common with the rural poor, eh?

Except that when they vote for more money in their pocket, they are being 'brainwashed', and when right-wing voters in other countries vote for more money in their pocket they are just being...well, selfish. So I guess it's better to be selfish than brainwashed. Fair enough (!?).

To be honest, all I see among those anti-red obsessives who have sympathy for the rural poor is just a thinly disguised disdain for them. In fact, their sense of humanity extends not much further than the tip of their nose. So to all those who sincerely hope the poor of this country can find a way to improve their lives with the help of government/society, I ask you to be a bit clearer when dissing the redshirt movement. Have a go at Taksin. Have a go at Jatuporn and his colleagues in the Red leadership. Have a go at the red guards and bombmakers. But don't have a go at people whose only perceived outlet for expressing how they feel is to put on a red shirt and go to a rally.

And to those of you who believe that the rural poor are in their present bind because of the 'life choices' they made, I know you will understand my sentiments when I humbly ask you to piss off.

Edited October 16, 2010 by hanuman1

[rubl]

begin removed ...

And to those of you who believe that the rural poor are in their present bind because of the 'life choices' they made, I know you will understand my sentiments when I humbly ask you to piss off.

Agree. 'Thaksin = PTP = reds = UDD = terrorists' is easy, but not correct. Only the 'Thaksin = PTP' part it seems. The rest is less obvious.

As for your sentiments, you still have to work on it. Take diplomats as example. A diplomat can tell you to go to hel_l in such a way you actually look forward going

(edit: elaborate a bit)

Edited October 16, 2010 by rubl

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Some anti-redshirt obsessives have said they feel sympathy for the plight of the rural poor.

Yes, this is true. One of them is named Abhisit.

But maybe they just want a better life and have no better way to express this. Are they still terrorist supporters?

What you want is irrelevant. You could be rich, poor, stupid, brilliant, even as obtuse as you. If you support terrorism by refusing to denounce your terrorist buddies, by cheering with them or cheering at terrorist leaders screaming for terrorism, you are a terrorist supporter.

When they voted for Taksin/Pua Thai, they voted for whoever they thought would put more money in their pocket over the next governmental term. Guess what - that's why Republicans/Conservatives often vote the way they do too!

No it isn't. Republicans would vote for a Democratic candidate who gives them MORE more than their previous faux Republican who gave them scraps.

Except that when they vote for more money in their pocket, they are being 'brainwashed',

No. They're being brainwashed when they vote for LESS money in their pocket. And fight the guy who's trying to put MORE money in their pockets.

all I see among those anti-red obsessives who have sympathy for the rural poor is just a thinly disguised disdain for them.

You'll find people have disdain for terrorists, yes. Funny that.

You'll find people have disdain for people who terrorise the people trying to help them, yes. Funny that.

So to all those who sincerely hope the poor of this country can find a way to improve their lives with the help of government/society, I ask you to be a bit clearer when dissing the redshirt movement.

I'd ask you to be a bit clearer when you tacitly defend terrorism, if I thought you were bright enough to understand the big words. I'd ask your friends to be bit clearer about their tacit defence of terrorism, if I thought they would listen.

And to those of you who believe that the rural poor are in their present bind because of the 'life choices' they made, I know you will understand my sentiments when I humbly ask you to piss off.

I feel as sorry for those who terrorise the people attempting to help them....as I feel for fat people who eat fast food 8 times a day complaining about their weight and their "big bones".

Read. For a change. Or go back to your rice-paddy and your bombs.

READ. VERIFY. The evidence is in the public domain, for god's sake.

It stuns me that so few people are aware of Abhisit's unbelievably generous (and the liberal in me will add 'fantastic') welfare plan, which he's trying to implement by 2016.

Across most of the world, Abhisit would be labelled a socialist. In Thailand, he's labelled "elitist". This is because the Thais who support Thaksin care more about idiocy than policy.

Abhisit - Oxford-educated, champion of the poor, proposing a welfare plan which will cover all Thais from cradle to grave, liberal, peace-loving, egalitarian - but, Thaksin reminds his idiot followers, "he's not religious", so....

A wise man once said "Every nation deserves the government it has."

Thailand will deserve what Thailand gets. And it's rare to hear a liberal admit it, but Thailand's poor really will deserve their future poverty if they continue to fight for it. It is impossible to help people who have no desire to help themselves.

You're clearly oblivious to the fact that Abhisit has already delivered more than Thaksin ever did, and - AND - is attempting to implement more than Thaksin ever will. Abhisit is trying - if the idiot poor will let him - to give them a welfare state.

But the idiots aren't interested in silver and gold. They'd rather play with the copper trinkets Thaksin has given them, whilst they dream about (and fight for) even MORE-SHINY trinkets Thaksin has promised them.

They're stupid.

You're...do the maths. If you can. *snicker*

You cannot help those with ZERO interest in helping themselves. Som nom na. Indeed.

[Buchholz]

But the equation Taksin=Redshirts=UDD=Terrorists is so simple and easy to remember without needing to bother with details, people just go with it because of that.

Some anti-redshirt obsessives have said they feel sympathy for the plight of the rural poor. Many of those people wear red shirts, so that automatically means they love Taksin and Terrorism according to the simple formula above. That also makes them unworthy of your sympathy any more. But maybe they just want a better life and have no better way to express this. Are they still terrorist supporters?

So to all those who sincerely hope the poor of this country can find a way to improve their lives with the help of government/society, I ask you to be a bit clearer when dissing the redshirt movement. Have a go at Taksin. Have a go at Jatuporn and his colleagues in the Red leadership. Have a go at the red guards and bombmakers. But don't have a go at people whose only perceived outlet for expressing how they feel is to put on a red shirt and go to a rally.

In your equation, you forgot to include PTP.

Thaksin (*and please note the normally used transliteration for the ex-PM, as Taksin was a King of Thailand and has a different phonetic pronunciation than Thaksin) = PTP = Red Shirts = UDD

Since my post below, we've had a Red Shirt blow himself (and 3 innocent neighbors) to pieces while dislodging dozens of tenants from their now-condemned building, revelations that a Red Shirt Leader and a Red Shirt Guard Leader were working, on the taxpayers baht, for PTP politicians, reports of Thaksin AKA the Pheu Thai Party Patriarch deciding on who that Party's nomination for PM is going to be, Red Shirt Leaders threatening suicide bombers, and a few more miscellaneous acts and statements to keep the equation valid and on-going. My points below are reinforced on a daily basis, it seems.

If that's troubling to the pro-red obsessives, so be it. It should be troubling.

I think the stumbling block is that a lot of the posters cannot seem to separate the average poor upcountry person from the red shirts and PTP.

To overcome that stumbling block requires the non-violent Red supporters to remove themselves from the Red leadership and PTP. Until that occurs, the bond that labels them together as one will remain inextricable. I think nothing short of scrapping the Red Shirt movement and starting afresh without those Red leaders and PTP will achieve that.

It can be done as was occurred with the multi-colored shirts removing themselves from the leadership of the Yellows, when there was a differing of opinions with how that movement should move on.

And as soon as we mention the rights of the agrarian/labor classes we are lablelled as Taksin and Red Shirt sympathisers/apologists and (admittedly mostly Thais claim this)anti-monarchy, when nothing could be further from the truth.

That is the problem with their movement. As long as the Thaksin/Red Shirt/PTP connections remain, the labeling is rather justified. When Red Shirts continue to hold Thaksin aloft and the PTP calls him their "policy maker", how can it not be justified? If they wish to divorce themselves from those labels, they need to divorce themselves from the Red leaders and Thaksin.

I find very few posts that don't support the labor class and their legitimate problems. What I see more commonly is suggestions that they find another avenue with which to pursue relief from their admittedly heavy burden. That change will necessarily have to come from them, but for now, too many seem to continue to pursue Thaksin and the Red leaders as their messiah, which is unfortunate, because I don't see them accomplishing their goals while wearing that yoke. It's not going to be an easy task for them, but their worthwhile cause will hopefully be achieved once they strip themselves of those radicals. As for the anti-monarchy claims, I have no doubt that the majority of Reds don't share those views. However, until the Reds come out and completely disown the likes of Giles and Jakrapob, that label, too, will remain. The Reds need to be clear and forthright and loudly proclaim that that aspect of their movement doesn't represent them. Until now, that's not occurred.

Reds need to reach a consensus then and clearly dissociate themselves from Thaksin/PTP/Giles/Arisaman/et al and move on.

If they allow any of those contingents to remain connected without a denunciation, then the Reds are unavoidably tied to them and all their misdeeds.

Unfortunately for the non-violent rural Reds and non-violent urban poor Reds, that's highly improbable.

Given the enormity of that task, as said, I think they are best off scrapping it all and coming up with new leaders, new agendas, new goals, new methods, and a new color, if they have to have a color.

Edited October 16, 2010 by Buchholz

[Buchholz]

In a effort to secure the pure majority of Pheu Thai Party in the next election so they can form a one-party government, I note that former Commander-in-Chief of the Royal Thai Army (appointed by former PM Thaksin Shinawatra's administration) General Chaisit Shinawatra has now announced he will be the Pheu Thai Party candidate for Ratchaburi, which is located in the central Thailand area and which has Yingluk Shinawatra as the Pheu Thai Party Coordinator for that region.

[asiawatcher]

A vote for PTP is a vote to allow a convicted narcissist criminal with many charges still outstanding, to run Thailand. Great job Thais. Why not contract the Italian Mafia instead, they have a longer more successful track record? And the good part about the Mafia is they don't have verbal diarrhoea or like the limelight.

Anyway, don't forget to turn the lights out when the last farang leaves with his capital, knowledge and abilities and you to your just deserts. Then you can throw as many tyre and bamboo spear blockade parties as you like, fire off some grenades and bullets and even go to civil war at your earliest convenience.

[Artisi]

And what makes you think that the mafia would be interested, I would think that it would look like far too much trouble for the return.

[animatic]

In a effort to secure the pure majority of Pheu Thai Party in the next election so they can form a one-party government, I note that former Commander-in-Chief of the Royal Thai Army (appointed by former PM Thaksin Shinawatra's administration) General Chaisit Shinawatra has now announced he will be the Pheu Thai Party candidate for Ratchaburi, which is located in the central Thailand area and which has Yingluk Shinawatra as the Pheu Thai Party Coordinator for that region.

Looks like the 'Coordinator of Pork Donations'

Eating far too well to represent the disenfranchised poor and down trodden.

But looks like he can collect the graft with the best of them.

The mafia certainly is interested, just not the ITALIAN one.

Edited October 18, 2010 by animatic

[Buchholz]

In a effort to secure the pure majority of Pheu Thai Party in the next election so they can form a one-party government, I note that former Commander-in-Chief of the Royal Thai Army (appointed by former PM Thaksin Shinawatra's administration) General Chaisit Shinawatra has now announced he will be the Pheu Thai Party candidate for Ratchaburi, which is located in the central Thailand area and which has Yingluk Shinawatra as the Pheu Thai Party Coordinator for that region.

Looks like the 'Coordinator of Pork Donations'

Eating far too well to represent the disenfranchised poor and down trodden.

But looks like he can collect the graft with the best of them.

The mafia certainly is interested, just not the ITALIAN one.

Also makes it hard to reconcile someone has quit politics when the same surname surfaces three times.

'Coordinator of Pork Donations'

[ianbaggie]

Abhisit - Oxford-educated, champion of the poor, proposing a welfare plan which will cover all Thais from cradle to grave, liberal, peace-loving, egalitarian - but, Thaksin reminds his idiot followers, "he's not religious", so....

A wise man once said "Every nation deserves the government it has."

Thailand will deserve what Thailand gets. And it's rare to hear a liberal admit it, but Thailand's poor really will deserve their future poverty if they continue to fight for it. It is impossible to help people who have no desire to help themselves.

I find your last paragraph extremely offensive. You are making sweeping generalisations about an entire race. I have known many hardworking people who have had the 'status quo' drummed into them from the cradle, but still support the faction representing, to all intents and purposes, the party/ies which do not support Taksin, if you er, get my drift.

From reading this forum one would surmise that all people from Isaan are pro Taksin, not so, I will accept that many are, but if you were reduced to living in a hut with no walls looking forward to your next meal of fried ants, (okay, I'm stretching it a bit), any light at the end of that impoverished tunnel, no matter how fleeting, might very well appeal.

There are many people here in the predominantly 'Yellow' South who hare also living on the margins of abject poverty. The way this country has been er, run, has lead to the current situation. And the ruling class (read Democrat, there's an oxymoron if ever there was one) has allowed this belated backlash to happen. Som nom bloody na.

MOST are pro Thaksin in Isan - thats why the red shirts leaders harp on about Abhisit not being able to go there - the fact is Thais who leave school at the age of 12 or 13 and dont work are many and their vote can be bought for a few beers - their support can be bought at Rachaprasong for 500 baht a daty and Thaksin knows it - FACTNOT GENERALISATION - whether it offends you or not

[jayboy]

the fact is Thais who leave school at the age of 12 or 13 and dont work are many and their vote can be bought for a few beers - their support can be bought at Rachaprasong for 500 baht a daty and Thaksin knows it - FACTNOT GENERALISATION - whether it offends you or not

No it's a generalisation not a fact, and if I may say so an ignorant and offensive one too.

[jayboy]

Looks like the 'Coordinator of Pork Donations'

Eating far too well to represent the disenfranchised poor and down trodden.

Does this puerile abuse apply to every high ranking fatty in Thailand, or just those you don't like?

[ianbaggie]

Abhisit - Oxford-educated, champion of the poor, proposing a welfare plan which will cover all Thais from cradle to grave, liberal, peace-loving, egalitarian - but, Thaksin reminds his idiot followers, "he's not religious", so....

A wise man once said "Every nation deserves the government it has."

Thailand will deserve what Thailand gets. And it's rare to hear a liberal admit it, but Thailand's poor really will deserve their future poverty if they continue to fight for it. It is impossible to help people who have no desire to help themselves.

I find your last paragraph extremely offensive.

From reading this forum one would surmise that all people from Isaan are pro Taksin, not so, I will accept that many are, but if you were reduced to living in a hut with no walls looking forward to your next meal of fried ants, (okay, I'm stretching it a bit), any light at the end of that impoverished tunnel, no matter how fleeting, might very well appeal.

There are many people here in the predominantly 'Yellow' South who hare also living on the margins of abject poverty. The way this country has been er, run, has lead to the current situation. And the ruling class (read Democrat, there's an oxymoron if ever there was one) has allowed this belated backlash to happen. Som nom bloody na.

I have to say, I didn't find looping's post offensive at all. But, if I did, I would find your last paragraph offensive too, suggesting that "all southerners are yellows". I realise you said the word "predominantly", but looping didn't say anything at all generalising khon Isaan in their entirety. What he said was that there are Grade 3 graduates who see their vote as a beer ticket - which is true in all parts of Thailand, but especially so in Isaan - but noone is suggesting that all Isaan voters act in this way.

Actually, it was I who was quoted (not looping).

And to the offended inmysights...I would offer you my condolences for your ignorance, but I cannot offer you my apologies for your offence.

This is my exact point, you see. You're clearly oblivious to the fact that Abhisit has already delivered more than Thaksin ever did, and - AND - is attempting to implement more than Thaksin ever will. Abhisit is trying - if the idiot poor will let him - to give them a welfare state.

But the idiots aren't interested in silver and gold. They'd rather play with the copper trinkets Thaksin has given them, whilst they dream about (and fight for) even MORE-SHINY trinkets Thaksin has promised them.

They're stupid.

You're...do the maths. If you can. *snicker*

You cannot help those with ZERO interest in helping themselves. Som nom na. Indeed.

THEYCALLMESCOOTER - ive taken issue with some of your past posts but this time you and I are 100% in agreement - i sat in an internet cafe to write this and witnessed a dozen Thai MEN throwing beer bottles rtound the shop - this was 10am at 4.30 i returned - the same ones were just leaving after the Police were called to the shop. My point - too many unemployed Thais with too much time on their hands - the ones who work and pay taxes are called "the elite" to me their the ones that keep Thail;and afloat - theyre the ones that threw Thaksin out last time after he paid their tax money into his company funds - thats the way THAILAND IS!! good on yer scooter!!

[ianbaggie]

the fact is Thais who leave school at the age of 12 or 13 and dont work are many and their vote can be bought for a few beers - their support can be bought at Rachaprasong for 500 baht a daty and Thaksin knows it - FACTNOT GENERALISATION - whether it offends you or not

No it's a generalisation not a fact, and if I may say so an ignorant and offensive one too.

Maybe instead of crying about it you could provide some facts about the last election - the only ignorance i can see is YOUr ignorance of the facts!! Go and do some reading up!!

[jayboy]

the fact is Thais who leave school at the age of 12 or 13 and dont work are many and their vote can be bought for a few beers - their support can be bought at Rachaprasong for 500 baht a daty and Thaksin knows it - FACTNOT GENERALISATION - whether it offends you or not

No it's a generalisation not a fact, and if I may say so an ignorant and offensive one too.

Maybe instead of crying about it you could provide some facts about the last election - the only ignorance i can see is YOUr ignorance of the facts!! Go and do some reading up!!

Care to provide some reference points justifying your position? I believe I have read most of the available material but perhaps you have some original sources.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Care to provide some reference points justifying your position? I believe I have read most of the available material but perhaps you have some original sources.

Not so original, but then again, what is the requirement for original source/s?

We got a smoking gun right there yall.

(edit: Of course if willing to fight for 2000, willing to vote for less = is the argument I was making there. That, and I thought we were talking about something else.

As far as vote-buying goes, $28,000/village to vote for Mr T seemed like a solid way to spend taxpayer revenue.)

Edited October 19, 2010 by TheyCallmeScooter

[philw]

THEYCALLMESCOOTER - ive taken issue with some of your past posts but this time you and I are 100% in agreement - i sat in an internet cafe to write this and witnessed a dozen Thai MEN throwing beer bottles rtound the shop - this was 10am at 4.30 i returned - the same ones were just leaving after the Police were called to the shop. My point - too many unemployed Thais with too much time on their hands - the ones who work and pay taxes are called "the elite" to me their the ones that keep Thail;and afloat - theyre the ones that threw Thaksin out last time after he paid their tax money into his company funds - thats the way THAILAND IS!! good on yer scooter!!

Absolutely.

Bring back hanging for the unemployed.......

[kropotkin]

Truly amazing.

Second class citizens (also called farang, untermensch etc) that get all worked up about what thai do to thai.

Does that prove our culture is superior - because we care for others?

Or does it prove that we should mind our own bussiness and not tell others how to live?

I do not know.

What do you think?

[kropotkin]

And can please somebody explain the concept of vote buying to me?

I would love to be paid by a politician that is so stupid as to think i will vote for him...........

Ah........only joking........ followers of Kropotkin do not vote .......

[SomTumTiger]

Isn't this a Thaksin bashing thread? Can we get back to that topic please? 555

[rubl]

Isn't this a Thaksin bashing thread? Can we get back to that topic please? 555

To turn to k. Thaksin bashing come easy, he mostly just asks for it. When he doesn't check with Robert A. first he speaks a lot of nonsense, forgets what he did or said before and tends to be 'economical' with the truth.

To return to the OP for once I really, really hope he sticks to this ending statement "He denounced all forms of violence regardless of who was involved."

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Truly amazing.

Second class citizens (also called farang, untermensch etc) that get all worked up about what thai do to thai.

Does that prove our culture is superior - because we care for others?

Or does it prove that we should mind our own bussiness and not tell others how to live?

I do not know.

What do you think?

You know what I think? Obviously not, otherwise you'd be firing on a couple more cylinders...

But this is what I think.

I think it proves that....we discuss what affects us and what we care about. It would be strange if we travelled or lived in another country but were still heavily involved in council / district politics in our respective homes / counties....don't you agree?

It would be strange if you travelled a lot through or lived in another country, but refused to comment or discuss anything relating to that country, purely because you believed you were a 2nd class citizen or foolishly believed the city and politics surrounding your home was...none of your business. Especially when one side is rampantly anti-foreigner, anti-homosexual, anti-Muslim, anti-peace, anti-dialogue, anti-Thailand.

For the record, everything I'm interested in is my business. In so much as I believe I have the right to chat about it.

And can please somebody explain the concept of vote buying to me?

I would love to be paid by a politician that is so stupid as to think i will vote for him...........

I think you are giving the villagers who's votes are being bought...too much credit. These aren't politically savvy intellectuals, playing off various factions against each other to get themselves the best price for their vote. They really mostly didn't care until the '97 Constitution made voting compulsory. Now they care because Thaksin (being a crafty fellow) got himself out there and bought up their votes.

Or he bought up the village elders or whatever, and they delivered the village as a bloc. The villagers aren't very well going to punch in for the guy who gave them no cash just to spite the guy that gave them cash, right?

At least, this is my understanding of the situation.

[kropotkin]

Scooter, you say many things in your reply.........

Do i BELIEVE i am a second class citizen? I can not vote - i can not own a house - even my wife often pays more, just because she is married to a farang - i have problems opening a bankaccount - I pay extra to get into a national park -.......... I KNOW i am a second class citizen.

Can we have an opinion about what happens in the countries we visit / we go to live in ? Only european think that .......... are we wrong or right? I ask you again.

Maybe we would be happier if we became thai-ish...... and ask: Thaksin or Suthep, what is in it for ME ME ME ME?

But i admit, even before coming to live in thailand, i sometimes had a tendency towards cynicism.......

[kropotkin]

And one side is rampant anti farang / homo / muslim / peace / thailand ?????????

I will not even ask which side you are referring to.

You might deduce that i support the other side..........

Just one question: was Thaksin in charge of the army when the killing of muslims started? Do you believe that before/ now/ later the army follow orders of civilians ?

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Scooter, you say many things in your reply.........

Do i BELIEVE i am a second class citizen? I can not vote - i can not own a house - even my wife often pays more, just because she is married to a farang - i have problems opening a bankaccount - I pay extra to get into a national park -.......... I KNOW i am a second class citizen.

Can we have an opinion about what happens in the countries we visit / we go to live in ? Only european think that .......... are we wrong or right? I ask you again.

Maybe we would be happier if we became thai-ish...... and ask: Thaksin or Suthep, what is in it for ME ME ME ME?

But i admit, even before coming to live in thailand, i sometimes had a tendency towards cynicism.......

Well, I admit you mentioned a few things I didn't have in mind...but they're rather tame, no? I am affected by those mild annoyances also, but I've never once considered their impact to be 'degrading' or anything. I'm not a Thai citizen, I'm a citizen of other nations however - and the annoyances of day-to-day life there 'degrade' me substantially more. Social norms, shaving every day, bah...Australia is an oppressive brutal regime.

As for Thaksin v Suthep (why not Thaksin v Abhisit?), I can't speak for Suthep (not sure what his deal is actually), but you would be a rare minority for whom the overwhelming evil of Thaksin is worth whatever mild benefits his government might bring to the 'party'. He wasn't exactly a barrel of laughs, you know? History books aren't going to smile fondly on him, and he knows it. He's not out for legacy, he's out for NOW. And that's, quite frankly, a bit horrifying (as a prospect).

And one side is rampant anti farang / homo / muslim / peace / thailand ?????????

I will not even ask which side you are referring to.

You might deduce that i support the other side..........

Just one question: was Thaksin in charge of the army when the killing of muslims started? Do you believe that before/ now/ later the army follow orders of civilians ?

Thaksin was never in 'charge' of the Army, to the best of my knowledge. The Royal Thai Army answers to the Head of State and Commander-in-Chief, who has a tendency to float above party politics and bickering.

How that curious dynamic plays out in the month-to-month business of governing, I admit I am clueless. I imagine it's a quite similar to something like if Australia was at war and a weak coalition PM was trying to assert his authority over the ADF. They'd (the PM and CDF) would likely treat each other with contempt (masked with a thin veneer of civility), but I imagine it would be a very awkward partnership where neither is answerable to the other (obviously in Australia the CDF is publicly expected to defer to the government, the realities of the dynamic would be quite similar I imagine - but I'm starting to talk out of my ass so I'll stop speculating).

In answer to your question, I believe the Army will NEVER answer to Thaksin or the Reds unless some freakish wave of success is fluked by Red-power brokers in the never-ending Promotion cycles - numerous freakishly successful waves. But whilst I concede that the Army probably still largely does their own thing (after all, their CiC is and will remain the King - which gives them a degree of autonomy), it would be naive to discount the level of influence Abhisit manages to wield in spots where one would assume he'd be powerless (I'm thinking about the bomb detector scandal, Abhisit won out there - I'm surprised so few seem to remember that almighty effort of ruthless diplomacy).

Thai society and culture has moved past the point where Generals would be eyeing off excuses to seize power, and they know that. So their ambition will be isolated to budgets, acquisitions, research & dev, jostling for favour at the higher ends of the star ranks etc. But that's really the case in every country with a strong military. $ = politics. When there is something to compete for, competitors will compete. The trick is to sustain a culture where the unthinkable...remains unthinkable. An Australian CDF would never dream of declaring martial law and deposing an elected government (the thought is ludicrous, the military would revolt, the whole nation would rise up and crack whips across his deluded face), but then again, our democracy is not fledgling, it has powerful checks and balances which are independently strong, and it's simply far less susceptible to gross bastardisation (of the kind Thailand's democracy was subjected to by Thaksin, prior to someone pressing CTRL-ALT-DEL and giving Thai's another shot at self-determination).

Thailand needs to be nudged along to the point where the game doesn't need to be restarted. But it will take time. And it's an endgame goal that will NEVER - EVER - be realised if Thaksin's grotesque corruption and abuses of power are allowed to fester unchecked, whilst his boundless ambition is unbridled. It would be Emperor Thaksin and totalitarian rule, without a freaking doubt. And it's hilariously ironic that so many Reds genuinely believe they are fighting for 'democracy'. pfft

[jayboy]

Care to provide some reference points justifying your position? I believe I have read most of the available material but perhaps you have some original sources.

Not so original, but then again, what is the requirement for original source/s?

We got a smoking gun right there yall.

(edit: Of course if willing to fight for 2000, willing to vote for less = is the argument I was making there. That, and I thought we were talking about something else.

As far as vote-buying goes, $28,000/village to vote for Mr T seemed like a solid way to spend taxpayer revenue.)

This and your subsequent comments suggest, along with your bar room style of discussion, that not only are you grossly ignorant of the facts but that you have not even read the basic literature (try Baker/Pasuk to begin with) on the subject.So it's difficult to know where to begin faced with such a one dimensional position - Thakin evil, army good, Thai voters corrupt etc etc.It's the Enid Blyton view of Thailand.

Taking just one point, the Thai generals constant emphasis on their loyalty to a higher power (as opposed to accountable civilian direction) is simply a cover for its notorious greed and corruption.It's amusing that poorly informed farang take these fairy tales seriously.Most Thais know the score very well, and that the loyalist rhetoric of the army just masks criminality and greed.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

I think, in a hypothetical world where I was retarded and supported idiocy, literally the hardest thing about being a Red Shirt supporter...would have to be the crawling shame, overwhelming embarrassment and endless cringing at the stupidity of my idiot Comrades.

"you have not read the basic literature" - no, I finished school quite some time ago. But make sure you do your recommended reading, you won't want to be short on workshop Flash Talk Points for your tutorial. ??

"difficult to know where to begin" - I've seen your efforts before. I suggest (and this is really supported by History) that you don't. Begin.

I didn't realise I was so one-dimensional. Then again, I didn't realise I was back in grade school either. Arguing with idiots who misattributed polarised positions like the challenged special kids they were. That's a rare kind of debate fail you don't see every day. Takes me back.

Oh no, you started? In the face of all the odds - and against your 'better' judgement as well? (your better judgement, the sinking feeling telling you to go post on New Mandala where you'll be cultivated for your unique and beautiful mind, giggle)

It's not fairy tales you're reading, princess! His Majesty the King is the Head of State and Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces. I'm not sure why you'd get him mixed up with Peter Pan, but I'd be lying if I claimed I planned on spending much time on the 'mystery'.

Are you Thai? I ask because you seem like you're pretending to be. But then that would make your quoting your coursework reading list...weird, in an even more peculiar way (if such a thing is possible). If you are Thai, I assure you my Thai precludes our debating anything. And your English, whilst a great deal better than my Thai, unfortunately limits us in an converse yet identical manner.

If you're not Thai, probably best if you don't pretend you can speak for them. That would be...stupid, in ways distinguishable even from...you.

[Pi Sek]

Just saw this one:

When they voted for Taksin/Pua Thai, they voted for whoever they thought would put more money in their pocket over the next governmental term. Guess what - that's why Republicans/Conservatives often vote the way they do too! Never thought you could have so much in common with the rural poor, eh?

Except that when they vote for more money in their pocket, they are being 'brainwashed', and when right-wing voters in other countries vote for more money in their pocket they are just being...well, selfish. So I guess it's better to be selfish than brainwashed. Fair enough (!?).

The way I understand it, you are mistaken - you've made the mistake of using Western logic.

When they voted for Thaksin/Peua Thai, they voted for 500 Baht cash in hand - that's 34.2 Satang per day over the 4-year term (in some cases!). However, his policies were costing them more than that*, therefore they were voting to become poorer, particularly in the longer term.

This is where the PAD's claims that Thailand "isn't yet ready for a democracy" stem from. They'd prefer a more fascist approach. However, you could use the same logic to developed democracies like the US or the UK - "I vote Labour because I've always Labour", even though Labour has gone from left-wing to middle-right wing in a matter of 2 decades. Surely people should vote for policies, not for a colour?

* I realise this is difficult to clarify - note that the economy was pretty successful under Thaksin, albeit during a time of world economic boom. But the "loans for farmers" scheme has cost the average Isaan farmer thousands of Baht a year, and that was just one policy.

[ianbaggie]

THEYCALLMESCOOTER - ive taken issue with some of your past posts but this time you and I are 100% in agreement - i sat in an internet cafe to write this and witnessed a dozen Thai MEN throwing beer bottles rtound the shop - this was 10am at 4.30 i returned - the same ones were just leaving after the Police were called to the shop. My point - too many unemployed Thais with too much time on their hands - the ones who work and pay taxes are called "the elite" to me their the ones that keep Thail;and afloat - theyre the ones that threw Thaksin out last time after he paid their tax money into his company funds - thats the way THAILAND IS!! good on yer scooter!!

Absolutely.

Bring back hanging for the unemployed.......

Noew thats the sort of comment Id expect a red shirt to make not an educated farang - we KNOW there are other alternatives - such as trying to do something with your life instead of blindly following a criminal like Thaksin!! ermmmmmm hang on a minute - DONT WE???