Local Land Department In Bangkok Says They Will Not Accept To Register A Usufruct

[bkkflyer]

Just about to buy a small house in the outer Bangkok area. Nothing fancy, a few million baht. Already mentally have written off the money, but still thought I would register a Usufruct in order to not let my girlfriend feels she get the house tooo easy.... (we have a 1 year old child - thats the reason why I buy it in the first place).

Asked my secretary to call the Land Department where the house is, and they said (after talking to the "head") that they would not accept to register a Usufruct, as they considered it a circumvention of the rules to let a Alien control/own land.....

Does it actually mean they want undertable money to do it?

This Banana Republic never ceases to amaze me

[MikeyIdea]

I will not comment on the usufruct but if you have a one year old child, why don't you buy the house in the childs name? I did it and it is easy. First you MUST be legal father and have shared custody of the child of course, have a check in the family and children forum for info.

If things go wrong one day, then the house will be under courts supervision as it is owned by a minor and it is only allowed to be sold if it is judged good for the child. Good thing, mother can in effect not sell the house if you don't agree (if you both have custody then you both have equal say) and both of you together still can't sell the house if a court doesn't agree that it is good for the child.

[Nawtier]

Or take a lawyer with you for a few thousand baht and tell them to pull their heads in and do it....but put in kids name anyway.

[PattayaParent]

This Banana Republic never ceases to amaze me

Sounds to me just like they are applying the law as it was intended.

Edited November 16, 2010 by PattayaParent

[FarangBuddha]

What the heck is a "usefruct"? We're in Thailand...maybe they didn't understand this very foreign term

Why not just put LAND in her name and the HOUSE in your's or jointly. Alternatively, why not land/house in her name with 30-year lease of house in yours [and register the lease with land office and pay appropriate tax to make it all legal]?

[Khun Jean]

Isn't it nice of them to protect the financial wellbeing of foreigners.

[LennyW]

What the heck is a "usefruct"? We're in Thailand...maybe they didn't understand this very foreign term

Why not just put LAND in her name and the HOUSE in your's or jointly. Alternatively, why not land/house in her name with 30-year lease of house in yours [and register the lease with land office and pay appropriate tax to make it all legal]?

See here http://www.isaanlawyers.com/Usufruct%20agreements%20in%20Thailand.pdf

[trogers]

This Banana Republic never ceases to amaze me

What amazed me is the following in the post - girlfriend and 1 year old child...

but still thought I would register a Usufruct in order to not let my girlfriend feels she get the house tooo easy.... (we have a 1 year old child - thats the reason why I buy it in the first place).

[PattayaParent]

Isn't it nice of them to protect the financial wellbeing of foreigners.

But to register the usufruct they would be assisting a froreigner to break the law, and as it wouldn't be legal there is still no protection to his financial wellbeing.

And if the OP is really concerned about his financial wellbeing he would rent or buy a condo that he could put in his name.

[travelmann]

Each office makes its own rules, I had no problems down at Sam Roi Yot 6 months ago it cost 100 baht but up the road at Hua Hin and under the counter "cough" 10-15000 baht is "required". Corruption and greed welcome to Thailand.

[bkkflyer]

What amazed me is the following in the post - girlfriend and 1 year old child...

Not sure why this amazes you

[travelmann]

What amazed me is the following in the post - girlfriend and 1 year old child...

Not sure why this amazes you

In fact more protection is gained with the usufruct if he IS NOT married so having a g/f is better for him

[swissie]

What the heck is a "usefruct"? We're in Thailand...maybe they didn't understand this very foreign term

Why not just put LAND in her name and the HOUSE in your's or jointly. Alternatively, why not land/house in her name with 30-year lease of house in yours [and register the lease with land office and pay appropriate tax to make it all legal]?

USUFRUCT is not a Thai-Word (originally comes from latin). Probably 99 % of Thai-Officials have never heard of it, but in order to "save face" they would rather say "we not do" instead of admitting "I not understand word".

The remedy: There is a Thai-word for it (I used to know it, but right now I can't think of it), so therefore one must only ask the Thai GF/Wife for this Thai-word and the "officials" will at least know what is asked of them. Cheers.

[Puccini]

...Asked my secretary to call the Land Department where the house is, and they said (after talking to the "head") that they would not accept to register a Usufruct, as they considered it a circumvention of the rules to let a Alien control/own land...

I think the refusal may have been due to the way your secretary presented the case to the Land Department official, perhaps, for example: "My farang boss bought a house with a piece of land but because he is not allowed to own land in Thailand it has been registered in the name in his girlfriend. Can he register a usufruct on this land and house?"

The first mistake was that you, respectively your secretary on your behalf, made this inquiry about the usufruct. It should have been the land owner, or a representative, preferably a lawyer, on her behalf, to do so. The nature of the relationship between the landowner and the usufruct beneficiary is immaterial and details of it do not necessarily need to be disclosed to the Land Department. The source of the money for the purchase matters, however, and the moment that you, your girlfriend or your secretary told the Land Department that it was your money they could even have declared the purchase contract between your girlfriend and the previous owner null and void.

[stgrhe]

But to register the usufruct they would be assisting a froreigner to break the law, and as it wouldn't be legal there is still no protection to his financial wellbeing.

That is incorrect! A usufruct is perfectly legal and it never circumvent the law as it only allows the usufruct holder to live on the land, not own it, for the duration of the usufruct period being for live or thirty years. Therefore, in many ways it is virtually an alternative to a lease, a superficery or a right to habitat.

The problem here is that officers at the some of the land offices try to create their own rules by interpretation the law in a way that suits them and probably also benefit their wallets.

[bkkflyer]

Thanks for inputs. I am even more confused now than prior to opening this topic.

The overall impression I get from the feedbacks here is that basically;

- I am not allowed to gift my girlfriend X million baht to purchase this property and have a Usufruct registered on the Chanone, and being open about it towards the Land Department.

I have a very nice relationship with my (yes previously worked in a bar) girlfriend. I dont mind too much if I lose the money as long as it would hopefully benefit our daughter. Its more that I want her to understand that "nothing comes for free" (or at least not much...)

As also suggested I could register the house in our daughters name, but I think its a bit of a hassle - as we will probably sell this house within a few years to buy/build a larger house.

If it makes any difference, it is a ready-built house from one of the larger Bangkok developers.

[PattayaParent]

But to register the usufruct they would be assisting a froreigner to break the law, and as it wouldn't be legal there is still no protection to his financial wellbeing.

That is incorrect! A usufruct is perfectly legal and it never circumvent the law as it only allows the usufruct holder to live on the land, not own it, for the duration of the usufruct period being for live or thirty years. Therefore, in many ways it is virtually an alternative to a lease, a superficery or a right to habitat.

The problem here is that officers at the some of the land offices try to create their own rules by interpretation the law in a way that suits them and probably also benefit their wallets.

Then why not just take out a lease and register it at the land department which they would not refuse to do?

The key word in the OP is 'control' the land by using a loophole to take away the rights of the Thai owner.

[MikeyIdea]

But to register the usufruct they would be assisting a froreigner to break the law, and as it wouldn't be legal there is still no protection to his financial wellbeing.

That is incorrect! A usufruct is perfectly legal and it never circumvent the law as it only allows the usufruct holder to live on the land, not own it, for the duration of the usufruct period being for live or thirty years. Therefore, in many ways it is virtually an alternative to a lease, a superficery or a right to habitat.

The problem here is that officers at the some of the land offices try to create their own rules by interpretation the law in a way that suits them and probably also benefit their wallets.

Then why not just take out a lease and register it at the land department which they would not refuse to do?

The key word in the OP is 'control' the land by using a loophole to take away the rights of the Thai owner.

There is no law in Thailand saying that a non-Thai citizen cannot control land for the maximum 30 years that the law allow. A non-Thai citizen can get a lease contract registered in his own name as well as usufruct. Nominee companies are not accepted because of 2 reasons; there is no time limit and "ownership" is changed without land department knowing

stgrhe, please correct me if I'm wrong

[MikeyIdea]

Thanks for inputs. I am even more confused now than prior to opening this topic.

The overall impression I get from the feedbacks here is that basically;

- I am not allowed to gift my girlfriend X million baht to purchase this property and have a Usufruct registered on the Chanone, and being open about it towards the Land Department.

I have a very nice relationship with my (yes previously worked in a bar) girlfriend. I dont mind too much if I lose the money as long as it would hopefully benefit our daughter. Its more that I want her to understand that "nothing comes for free" (or at least not much...)

As also suggested I could register the house in our daughters name, but I think its a bit of a hassle - as we will probably sell this house within a few years to buy/build a larger house.

If it makes any difference, it is a ready-built house from one of the larger Bangkok developers.

bkkflyer, search and read stgrhe's posts on this subject, he is very knowledgeable

Who owns the house has virtually no importance, don't bother, usufruct or lease it the way to go

Edited November 17, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[stgrhe]

Then why not just take out a lease and register it at the land department which they would not refuse to do?

Because a lease is considerably more expensive than a usufruct or a superficies. Also a usufruct can be for life whereas a lease (or actually 'Hire of Immovably Property' as the proper paragraph is called).

With a Thai spouse (if the spouse owns the land that is) the usufruct, superficies or lease shall only be regarded as a right to remain living on the land should the spouse die first.

[Lannatyne]

Your first post seems to suggest that you've not yet bought the house. Right?

Firstly, do get a lawyer involved - it won't cost too much.

But, why not ask the lawyer to do this? - Line your dominoes up by way of a purchase contract : Get the developer to give you the usufruct, pay the money to buy property, then, (same day at LO), transfer title to g/f.

That keeps g/f out of any agreement with you, that she can't later say was forced upon her. But in the end she's on the chanote as freeholder, and you're on the chanote as usufructuary.

Get your lawyer to do wills as well. On death, g/f wills property to you first, or if you both die, she wills it to child.

If you really want belt and braces, do you have any younger kids from previous relationship 'at home'? Depends upon your own age, of course. Anyway, if you're getting on a bit, then a usufruct for life, or 30 yrs isn't going to do much apart from postponing g/f becoming sole holder of title, without any encumberance like a usufruct. Therefore, if you have children of, say, mid-20's 'at home', put the usufruct in their names That should give you comfort that, once you pop your clogs, then your child has a little bit of security, rather than risking Mom getting that new Fortuner etc etc she's got her eye on, and letting the child go to Temple School through lack of money.

A drawback for my final point above is if your previous offspring die early. But, you weigh things up in life..............

[thaiwanderer]

USUFRUCT is not a Thai-Word (originally comes from latin). Probably 99 % of Thai-Officials have never heard of it, but in order to "save face" they would rather say "we not do" instead of admitting "I not understand word".

The remedy: There is a Thai-word for it (I used to know it, but right now I can't think of it), so therefore one must only ask the Thai GF/Wife for this Thai-word and the "officials" will at least know what is asked of them. Cheers.

Please, your imagination is running ahead of you.

[thaiwanderer]

But to register the usufruct they would be assisting a froreigner to break the law, and as it wouldn't be legal there is still no protection to his financial wellbeing.

That is incorrect! A usufruct is perfectly legal and it never circumvent the law as it only allows the usufruct holder to live on the land, not own it, for the duration of the usufruct period being for live or thirty years. Therefore, in many ways it is virtually an alternative to a lease, a superficery or a right to habitat.

The problem here is that officers at the some of the land offices try to create their own rules by interpretation the law in a way that suits them and probably also benefit their wallets.

Then why not just take out a lease and register it at the land department which they would not refuse to do?

The key word in the OP is 'control' the land by using a loophole to take away the rights of the Thai owner.

There is no law in Thailand saying that a non-Thai citizen cannot control land for the maximum 30 years that the law allow. A non-Thai citizen can get a lease contract registered in his own name as well as usufruct. Nominee companies are not accepted because of 2 reasons; there is no time limit and "ownership" is changed without land department knowing

stgrhe, please correct me if I'm wrong

Nominee companies aren't acceptable.........because they are nominee.

That aside, your 2 reasons are also incorrect.

Companies can be lessors or usufructuaries and I can't see why you think they can't be the latter?

[MikeyIdea]

<quote name='PattayaParent' timestamp='1289902290' post='4027099'>

But to register the usufruct they would be assisting a froreigner to break the law, and as it wouldn't be legal there is still no protection to his financial wellbeing.

</quote>

That is incorrect! A usufruct is perfectly legal and it never circumvent the law as it only allows the usufruct holder to live on the land, not own it, for the duration of the usufruct period being for live or thirty years. Therefore, in many ways it is virtually an alternative to a lease, a superficery or a right to habitat.

The problem here is that officers at the some of the land offices try to create their own rules by interpretation the law in a way that suits them and probably also benefit their wallets.

Then why not just take out a lease and register it at the land department which they would not refuse to do?

The key word in the OP is 'control' the land by using a loophole to take away the rights of the Thai owner.

There is no law in Thailand saying that a non-Thai citizen cannot control land for the maximum 30 years that the law allow. A non-Thai citizen can get a lease contract registered in his own name as well as usufruct. Nominee companies are not accepted because of 2 reasons; there is no time limit and "ownership" is changed without land department knowing

stgrhe, please correct me if I'm wrong

Nominee companies aren't acceptable.........because they are nominee.

That aside, your 2 reasons are also incorrect.

Companies can be lessors or usufructuaries and I can't see why you think they can't be the latter?

Did I get everything wrong? I did not (intend to) say that companies cannot be lessors or usufructuaries, they can. I bought a house and took over a leasing contract from a company myself many years ago.

Cut out what I wrote to try to explain as it obviously wasn't that good - back to basics.

As my lawyer explained: There is no law in Thailand saying that a non-Thai citizen cannot control land for the maximum 30 years that the law allow. 30 year is maximum that the law allow and any way to circumvent that is against the meaning of the law

Better?

Edited November 24, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[ESB7]

I will not comment on the usufruct but if you have a one year old child, why don't you buy the house in the childs name? I did it and it is easy. First you MUST be legal father and have shared custody of the child of course, have a check in the family and children forum for info.

If things go wrong one day, then the house will be under courts supervision as it is owned by a minor and it is only allowed to be sold if it is judged good for the child. Good thing, mother can in effect not sell the house if you don't agree (if you both have custody then you both have equal say) and both of you together still can't sell the house if a court doesn't agree that it is good for the child.

Correct me if I am wrong but cant the Thai Citezen change the ownership to their own name anytime befor the child is 18 years of age?......there have been a number of discussions on this topic.....ask yourself, would it really be that easy for a foreigner to get some kind of protection just because they have a child.

[donx]

As my lawyer explained: There is no law in Thailand saying that a non-Thai citizen cannot control land for the maximum 30 years that the law allow. 30 year is maximum that the law allow and any way to circumvent that is against the meaning of the law

Since a usufruct can be provided for your lifetime, it is possible to have control over land for more than 30 years.

[donx]

I will not comment on the usufruct but if you have a one year old child, why don't you buy the house in the childs name? I did it and it is easy. First you MUST be legal father and have shared custody of the child of course, have a check in the family and children forum for info.

If things go wrong one day, then the house will be under courts supervision as it is owned by a minor and it is only allowed to be sold if it is judged good for the child. Good thing, mother can in effect not sell the house if you don't agree (if you both have custody then you both have equal say) and both of you together still can't sell the house if a court doesn't agree that it is good for the child.

Correct me if I am wrong but cant the Thai Citezen change the ownership to their own name anytime befor the child is 18 years of age?......there have been a number of discussions on this topic.....ask yourself, would it really be that easy for a foreigner to get some kind of protection just because they have a child.

As MikeyIdea says, the Thai parent (I think you are referring to the Thai parent since the Thai child is also a Thai Citizen) can't change the ownership to their own name without a court approaval and the court would only do so if it was in the best interest of the Thai child owner.

[thaiwanderer]

Did I get everything wrong? I did not (intend to) say that companies cannot be lessors or usufructuaries, they can. I bought a house and took over a leasing contract from a company myself many years ago.

Cut out what I wrote to try to explain as it obviously wasn't that good - back to basics.

As my lawyer explained: There is no law in Thailand saying that a non-Thai citizen cannot control land for the maximum 30 years that the law allow. 30 year is maximum that the law allow and any way to circumvent that is against the meaning of the law

Better?

Its a broad brush rule of thumb (ambiguous and neither wholly correct or incorrect) but isn't a decent replacement for an understanding of the actual laws involved.

[MikeyIdea]

I will not comment on the usufruct but if you have a one year old child, why don't you buy the house in the childs name? I did it and it is easy. First you MUST be legal father and have shared custody of the child of course, have a check in the family and children forum for info.

If things go wrong one day, then the house will be under courts supervision as it is owned by a minor and it is only allowed to be sold if it is judged good for the child. Good thing, mother can in effect not sell the house if you don't agree (if you both have custody then you both have equal say) and both of you together still can't sell the house if a court doesn't agree that it is good for the child.

Correct me if I am wrong but cant the Thai Citezen change the ownership to their own name anytime befor the child is 18 years of age?......there have been a number of discussions on this topic.....ask yourself, would it really be that easy for a foreigner to get some kind of protection just because they have a child.

As MikeyIdea says, the Thai parent (I think you are referring to the Thai parent since the Thai child is also a Thai Citizen) can't change the ownership to their own name without a court approaval and the court would only do so if it was in the best interest of the Thai child owner.

I have sole custody of my daughter (dual citizenship) and I bought a small house in Bangkok and the chanote tii dinn carry her name. It is her fingerprint on the papers as she was too young to write her name herself when I did it. A western parent can also do this because we are talking about the birth right of a Thai citizen, has nothing to do with who the father is. There must be no debt on it (can't give debt to a child). You cannot register a lease at the land department if the owner of the land is a minor unless there is a court decision on it.

Legal guardian or guardians (Thai or western) must petition the court to ask for permission to sell if owner is minor.

[MikeyIdea]

Did I get everything wrong? I did not (intend to) say that companies cannot be lessors or usufructuaries, they can. I bought a house and took over a leasing contract from a company myself many years ago.

Cut out what I wrote to try to explain as it obviously wasn't that good - back to basics.

As my lawyer explained: There is no law in Thailand saying that a non-Thai citizen cannot control land for the maximum 30 years that the law allow. 30 year is maximum that the law allow and any way to circumvent that is against the meaning of the law

Better?

Its a broad brush rule of thumb (ambiguous and neither wholly correct or incorrect) but isn't a decent replacement for an understanding of the actual laws involved.

Agree, it's also been pointed out that usufruct can be on life so the 30 year time limit only applies to leases