Reds Struggling Under Thai Charter : New Chief

[Cuchulainn]

.............Ninety-eight to ninety-nine per cent of DAAD members agree with our policy of fighting for a democracy with the King as the head of state...............

So........why wasn't Arisaman lynched during his speech when we incited the crowd to burn down a certain hospital with a certain person inside it?

[whybother]

I suppose dividing them makes it much easier to say "fake red shirts" whenever a red shirt faction does something bad.

[Buchholz]

Can you then explain the differences between UDD, DAAD, and red shirts?

The article below describes just one incident which I think highlights the complexity of the Red Shirt movement and its grass roots members. I think that this goes some way to explaining that a simple formula linking all red shirts together with a single aim is not viable. Not all red shirts think the same or have the same goals.

I can appreciate that the Red leaders sometimes disagree on some things, but can you explain the differences between UDD, DAAD, and red shirts?

[metisdead]

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[scorecard]

The new dear leader also mentioned that she's going to set up hundreds of schools to educate their followers about democracy.

Will it be a repeat of the same 'schools' set up by jatuporn, verra, arisman etc ., some months ago.

Not one piece of literature explaining the concept of democarcy, explaining the pilars of democracy, the need for respect for the law, etc etc., has ever surfaced. And many attendees have said that the 'schools' were nothing more than taped reruns of hate speches against abhisit and others.

I wish a journalist would put some questions to the new dear leader about the new schools and ask for some lireature, some teaching materials.

If she does hand over lierature which is wel strucured, explains democarcy etc., then that's good.

If here's no literature or it's 'secret' than it proves it's just a rerun of the nasty past.

[Buchholz]

Can you then explain the differences between UDD, DAAD, and red shirts?

The article below describes just one incident which I think highlights the complexity of the Red Shirt movement and its grass roots members. I think that this goes some way to explaining that a simple formula linking all red shirts together with a single aim is not viable. Not all red shirts think the same or have the same goals.

I can appreciate that the Red leaders sometimes disagree on some things, but can you explain the differences between UDD, DAAD, and red shirts?

A check 2 days later reveals that it is, indeed, difficult to explain differences that aren't there.

Good to see the reaffirmation that they're all the same thing.

[Buchholz]

Thida Thavornseth quotes:

"It's time for us to try otherwise the group of people maybe we will have anarchy and maybe most people they pressure from about the justice in Thailand," she said.

"So they (are) angry and can do anything. We the people and especially the Red Shirt people want to keep in a group and move that is good for the Red Shirt and for the country also."

"We want to keep peaceful movement otherwise the democracy movement - our democracy movement may be destroyed because of some people want to destroy peaceful movement."

"Maybe (Thaksin) has some influence for some leader but not for me, Dr Weng."

"If Thaksin wants to lead absolutely he cannot, he cannot just only have some influence for some group of people. We have about 30 people, we have a brain, we can think, it's not necessary to follow Thaksin."

http://www.radioaustralianews.net.au/stories/201012/3088821.htm?desktop

=========================================================================================================================================

We shall see how things pan out for Red President Thida...

.

[phiphidon]

Can you then explain the differences between UDD, DAAD, and red shirts?

The article below describes just one incident which I think highlights the complexity of the Red Shirt movement and its grass roots members. I think that this goes some way to explaining that a simple formula linking all red shirts together with a single aim is not viable. Not all red shirts think the same or have the same goals.

I can appreciate that the Red leaders sometimes disagree on some things, but can you explain the differences between UDD, DAAD, and red shirts?

A check 2 days later reveals that it is, indeed, difficult to explain differences that aren't there.

Good to see the reaffirmation that they're all the same thing.

The article provided showed that grass root reds not only did not agree with some red leaders, they did not have the same aims e.g most TV Democrat apologists' (to use some of their rhetoric) simplistic case to bring back Thaksin, and did not care whether Thaksin was backing them or not. Not all redshirts are the same and think the same things and not all are interested into whether Thaksin comes back or not. In the article Noi says that she is using Thaksin. You'll either believe the preceding sentiments or not, it really does not concern me. I'm not trying to convert you. I will however dispute statements that all reds are the same and just want Thaksin back at whatever cost. If you and others wish to carry on with the belief that Thai politics are simple black and white or red and yellow or whatever, carry on.

[rubl]

The article below describes just one incident which I think highlights the complexity of the Red Shirt movement and its grass roots members. I think that this goes some way to explaining that a simple formula linking all red shirts together with a single aim is not viable. Not all red shirts think the same or have the same goals.

I can appreciate that the Red leaders sometimes disagree on some things, but can you explain the differences between UDD, DAAD, and red shirts?

A check 2 days later reveals that it is, indeed, difficult to explain differences that aren't there.

Good to see the reaffirmation that they're all the same thing.

The article provided showed that grass root reds not only did not agree with some red leaders, they did not have the same aims e.g most TV Democrat apologists' (to use some of their rhetoric) simplistic case to bring back Thaksin, and did not care whether Thaksin was backing them or not. Not all redshirts are the same and think the same things and not all are interested into whether Thaksin comes back or not. In the article Noi says that she is using Thaksin. You'll either believe the preceding sentiments or not, it really does not concern me. I'm not trying to convert you. I will however dispute statements that all reds are the same and just want Thaksin back at whatever cost. If you and others wish to carry on with the belief that Thai politics are simple black and white or red and yellow or whatever, carry on.

From the article you refer to in this reply on a previous post:

""If Thaksin wants to lead absolutely he cannot, he cannot just only have some influence for some group of people. We have about 30 people, we have a brain, we can think, it's not necessary to follow Thaksin.""

( http://www.radioaustralianews.net.au/stories/201012/3088821.htm?desktop )

I would like to know who those 30 people referred to are. I assume it's leader type of people (with a brain as well), not ordinary red-shirts. Is this the red polit bureau which will lead the common red-shirts into paradise ?

Edited December 10, 2010 by rubl

[phiphidon]

The article provided showed that grass root reds not only did not agree with some red leaders, they did not have the same aims e.g most TV Democrat apologists' (to use some of their rhetoric) simplistic case to bring back Thaksin, and did not care whether Thaksin was backing them or not. Not all redshirts are the same and think the same things and not all are interested into whether Thaksin comes back or not. In the article Noi says that she is using Thaksin. You'll either believe the preceding sentiments or not, it really does not concern me. I'm not trying to convert you. I will however dispute statements that all reds are the same and just want Thaksin back at whatever cost. If you and others wish to carry on with the belief that Thai politics are simple black and white or red and yellow or whatever, carry on.

From the article you refer to in this reply on a previous post:

""If Thaksin wants to lead absolutely he cannot, he cannot just only have some influence for some group of people. We have about 30 people, we have a brain, we can think, it's not necessary to follow Thaksin.""

( http://www.radioaust...821.htm?desktop )

I would like to know who those 30 people referred to are. I assume it's leader type of people (with a brain as well), not ordinary red-shirts. Is this the red polit bureau which will lead the common red-shirts into paradise ?

Rubi, its all got very confused, the article you are referring to (presumably the radio australia post) was posted by Bucholz. My post was an article from the nation 2009 about the red shirt demonstration around the democracy monument then and a grass roots red shirt member discussing her beliefs and their relationship vis a vis Thaksin, the DAAD, PTP etc. For whatever reason this post has been binned by the mods and seeing as it was an interview published in The Nation I'm not sure why, (Hang on, I see why, apparently we're not allowed to quote from the Thailand Forum Website either.) Just look through The Nations back issues dated 11th April 2009 and you'll see what I posted, Noi + DAAD. This is tiresome.

[Buchholz]

The article below describes just one incident which I think highlights the complexity of the Red Shirt movement and its grass roots members. I think that this goes some way to explaining that a simple formula linking all red shirts together with a single aim is not viable. Not all red shirts think the same or have the same goals.

I can appreciate that the Red leaders sometimes disagree on some things, but can you explain the differences between UDD, DAAD, and red shirts?

A check 2 days later reveals that it is, indeed, difficult to explain differences that aren't there.

Good to see the reaffirmation that they're all the same thing.

The article provided showed

None of that addresses the question put forth.... twice... to explain the differences between UDD, DAAD, and red shirts.

Perhaps the third time asking is the charm.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Buchholz

[phiphidon]

None of that addresses the question put forth.... twice... to explain the differences between UDD, DAAD, and red shirts.

Perhaps the third time asking is the charm.

I've explained it twice. If you do not wish to accept my previous replies as an explanation, OK.

[Buchholz]

None of that addresses the question put forth.... twice... to explain the differences between UDD, DAAD, and red shirts.

Perhaps the third time asking is the charm.

I've explained it twice. If you do not wish to accept my previous replies as an explanation, OK.

So they are three separate entities then? Three separate groups? That will come as a new surprise to everyone, including the people in those now three different groups. They'll be fascinated to learn that their previously held belief that they are actually just three different nomenclatures for the same organization and completely interchangeable was wrong.

.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Buchholz

[phiphidon]

None of that addresses the question put forth.... twice... to explain the differences between UDD, DAAD, and red shirts.

Perhaps the third time asking is the charm.

I've explained it twice. If you do not wish to accept my previous replies as an explanation, OK.

So they are three separate entities then? Three separate groups? That will come as a new surprise to everyone, including the people in those now three different groups.

Oh, do behave, what are you on about now?

[Buchholz]

None of that addresses the question put forth.... twice... to explain the differences between UDD, DAAD, and red shirts.

Perhaps the third time asking is the charm.

I've explained it twice. If you do not wish to accept my previous replies as an explanation, OK.

So they are three separate entities then? Three separate groups? That will come as a new surprise to everyone, including the people in those now three different groups. They'll be fascinated to learn that their previously held belief that they are actually just three different nomenclatures for the same organization and completely interchangeable was wrong.

Oh, do behave, what are you on about now?

You implied on your earlier post on formulas that UDD did not "=" DAAD and did not "=" red shirts.

That is why I asked for you to explain the differences as to why "=" was apparently erroneous in your view.

[hanuman1]

None of that addresses the question put forth.... twice... to explain the differences between UDD, DAAD, and red shirts.

Perhaps the third time asking is the charm.

With your obvious Googling skills, I'm surprised you didn't come across this page, which apparently answers your question:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Front_for_Democracy_Against_Dictatorship

The whole page is interesting reading, but specifically to address your question, it says the UDD=DAAD. It also says that the UDD's supporters 'are commonly called "Red Shirts"'.

So when Ms Thida says:

They may be red shirts, but they are not DAAD member.

It obviously looks like she has completely lost the plot and is living on another planet.

Either that or there may be the possibility (detailed nuance alert: stop reading if you hate red shirts) that she may know something of the current situation and not everyone who puts on a red shirt and attends a UDD rally is considered by her to be a registered 'member' of the UDD.

Hope this helps.

Edited December 10, 2010 by hanuman1

[Siam Simon]

You're missing the point, guys. John wants them to be the same so they will be the same .

[hanuman1]

You're missing the point, guys. John wants them to be the same so they will be the same .

I have addressed 'John's concerns. I feel confident he'll rest easier tonight as a result and look forward to his reply on the matter.

[Buchholz]

None of that addresses the question put forth.... twice... to explain the differences between UDD, DAAD, and red shirts.

Perhaps the third time asking is the charm.

With your obvious Googling skills, I'm surprised you didn't come across this page, which apparently answers your question:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Front_for_Democracy_Against_Dictatorship

The whole page is interesting reading, but specifically to address your question, it says the UDD=DAAD. It also says that the UDD's supporters 'are commonly called "Red Shirts"'.

So when Ms Thida says:

They may be red shirts, but they are not DAAD member.

It obviously looks like she has completely lost the plot and is living on another planet.

Either that or there may be the possibility (detailed nuance alert: stop reading if you hate red shirts) that she may know something of the current situation and not everyone who puts on a red shirt and attends a UDD rally is considered by her to be a registered 'member' of the UDD.

Hope this helps.

Sounds like maybe the Red President needs to read Attorney Amsterdam's interpretation:

Protestors associated with the National United Front for Democracy in opposition to Dictatorship (UDD, or "Red Shirts")

http://bignews.biz/?id=950126

And like you say, she should also have her writers correct wikipedia's entry that says UDD = red shirts

Actually, it will probably take more than the Red President of the Day to sort out the differences as so many Reds themselves don't know. Red shirts I've spoken to said they were UDD... but none of them have a UDD Membership Card or whatever Thida is talking about as "registered."

But at least you were able to sort out UDD = DAAD, which was more than phiphidon was able to do.

.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Buchholz

[Buchholz]

You're missing the point, guys. John wants them to be the same so they will be the same .

Until they can come up with what's what and who's who, Fred, I don't think anything is changed from them being the same. Is there anything else besides a one liner from the Red President that says who is who?

[Insight]

Can you then explain the differences between UDD, DAAD, and red shirts?

Don't go mixing these diverse political groups, now...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE

Edited December 12, 2010 by Insight

[msg362]

Red cow.

Clearly an intelligent and well thought out response to an interesting article, succinct and to the point and offering an insightful analysis of the problems that Thailand faces. I think we need more of this type of in depth analysis

[rubl]

Red cow.

Clearly an intelligent and well thought out response to an interesting article, succinct and to the point and offering an insightful analysis of the problems that Thailand faces. I think we need more of this type of in depth analysis

Apart from trying to (mostly) ignore dear member Piengrudee, I must admit to the occasional urge to post a 'one word' reply. Mostly manage to fight the urge for fear it's against forum rules.

Stay cool and keep

Edited December 12, 2010 by rubl

[SamritT]

What about Red Bull rather than Red Cow?

[scorecard]

None of that addresses the question put forth.... twice... to explain the differences between UDD, DAAD, and red shirts.

Perhaps the third time asking is the charm.

With your obvious Googling skills, I'm surprised you didn't come across this page, which apparently answers your question:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Front_for_Democracy_Against_Dictatorship

The whole page is interesting reading, but specifically to address your question, it says the UDD=DAAD. It also says that the UDD's supporters 'are commonly called "Red Shirts"'.

So when Ms Thida says:

They may be red shirts, but they are not DAAD member.

It obviously looks like she has completely lost the plot and is living on another planet.

Either that or there may be the possibility (detailed nuance alert: stop reading if you hate red shirts) that she may know something of the current situation and not everyone who puts on a red shirt and attends a UDD rally is considered by her to be a registered 'member' of the UDD.

Hope this helps.

Yes there are some interesting points in the wiki download, however:

- Wikipedia is basically a mess of items with nobody checking any facts etc.

- One part of the download includes a piece from the Economist which has been debated many times before with many negative comments because of it's unbalanced analysis.

[hanuman1]

With your obvious Googling skills, I'm surprised you didn't come across this page, which apparently answers your question:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Front_for_Democracy_Against_Dictatorship

The whole page is interesting reading, but specifically to address your question, it says the UDD=DAAD. It also says that the UDD's supporters 'are commonly called "Red Shirts"'.

So when Ms Thida says:

They may be red shirts, but they are not DAAD member.

It obviously looks like she has completely lost the plot and is living on another planet.

Either that or there may be the possibility (detailed nuance alert: stop reading if you hate red shirts) that she may know something of the current situation and not everyone who puts on a red shirt and attends a UDD rally is considered by her to be a registered 'member' of the UDD.

Hope this helps.

Yes there are some interesting points in the wiki download, however:

- Wikipedia is basically a mess of items with nobody checking any facts etc.

- One part of the download includes a piece from the Economist which has been debated many times before with many negative comments because of it's unbalanced analysis.

Hi

The piece from the Economist was offered as a source for the following sentence in the Wikipedia page:

The UDD is composed of mostly rural supporters, with some urban supporters as well, and although the movement receives support from former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, not all UDD members support the deposed Prime Minister.

so I guess this is the sentence you would consider 'unbalanced' - correct me if I'm wrong.

A lot of people have an inability to accept that the sentence may be true. Let me try to help.

Consider these two separate concepts, both enabled via a general election:

-a- A charismatic and corrupt leader.

-b- A set of populist policies, implemented in a visible way.

Now, those redshirts who aren't that crazy about Thaksin do actually prefer option 'b'. So what a lot of redshirts want is - shock, horror - the policies rather than the man. Is the penny starting to drop?

Anyway, there need not be a fear of the 'Red Horde' if the government is successful with its own populist policies - there are signs this may be the case - and if anything the fruition of those policies could be seen as being the reward for the shows of 'red discontent' over the last few years. It would just be a case of one party adopting some of the tactics of a rival - not unusual even in stable democracies, witness the New Labour phenomenon in the UK embracing comparatively right wing policies in the 90's etc.

That still leaves 2006, which still rankles with the red movement. Why should one coup be more 'special' than the last 30 or so? Good question. Maybe people should just forget about it - like the technically illegal invasion of Iraq (or was it just a 'mistake'?) - because it is in the past.

Edited December 13, 2010 by hanuman1

[Throatwobbler]

To Hanuman.

If you spent any time in rural Thailand you would realize that for the overwhelming majority of people living there it is all about Thaksin. There may be a few who don't care about him but they are a small minority. This is of course only based on my experience of spending time in rural Thailand. maybe you have some experiences of your own. And you can't count an interview with one red shirt as a proof of a wider movement.

[hanuman1]

To Hanuman.

If you spent any time in rural Thailand you would realize that for the overwhelming majority of people living there it is all about Thaksin. There may be a few who don't care about him but they are a small minority. This is of course only based on my experience of spending time in rural Thailand. maybe you have some experiences of your own. And you can't count an interview with one red shirt as a proof of a wider movement.

I never said that the 'overwhelming majority' of red shirts didn't like Thaksin - how can they not like him when his policies were the only ones ever to make a perceived difference to their lives, regardless of what the man himself was like?

I was simply trying to help those TVers who found it inconceivable (and there are surprisingly many of them) that even a SINGLE redshirt may not be so in love with the man.

[Buchholz]

I think posters are questioning the validity of these few lone voices of dissent over Thaksin within the Red Shirts. What is their relevance given the overwhelming number of Thaksin supporters that make up the Red Shirts? Do they have much pull or are they drowned out by chants of "Thaksin, Thaksin" voiced by all the other Red Shirts? If there are so few, they become insignificant. If they are so marginalized, it's difficult to even bother mentioning them in general discussions of the Red Shirts.

To further the lack of authority of Red President Thida and general disunity amongst the Reds, I note that fellow Red Shirt Leader Somyot is leading the Red Shirt rally at the Japanese Embassy in Bangkok today. Where is she in all of this? Upcountry with her red schools and her handful of students?

.

Edited December 13, 2010 by Buchholz

[rubl]

I think posters are questioning the validity of these few lone voices of dissent over Thaksin within the Red Shirts. What is their relevance given the overwhelming number of Thaksin supporters that make up the Red Shirts? Do they have much pull or are they drowned out by chants of "Thaksin, Thaksin" voiced by all the other Red Shirts? If there are so few, they become insignificant. If they are so marginalized, it's difficult to even bother mentioning them in general discussions of the Red Shirts.

To further the lack of authority of Red President Thida and general disunity amongst the Reds, I note that fellow Red Shirt Leader Somyot is leading the Red Shirt rally at the Japanese Embassy in Bangkok today. Where is she in all of this? Upcountry with her red schools and her handful of students?

.

A good leader knows when to delegate

Mind you, I wonder why protesting outside the Japanese Embassy? Trying to get them to question the government again ? Surely not meant to pressure anyone?