Value For Your Money

[Jingthing]

Agreed, but the "Thai-ier than thou^TM" crowd are not only tolerant of racism from Thais but go so far as to promote it! People should realize that in Thailand if you aren't Thai or sometimes just some kind of Asian, it is you who is one of the minorities that is being ragged on (if you don't understand that, look at the xenophobic land laws) who don't have the same rights as citizens, and let's face it, are not openly welcomed to become citizens for racial reasons (for those who want that). Yes we can leave, don't bother mentioning it. To my view, there is nothing wrong with staying and to ALSO be fully conscious of what the real policies are towards foreigners here (as well as the pervasive public attitudes). However, it's downright silly though to defend and rationalize racism of any kind, especially against yourself.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Jingthing

[JSixpack]

And this ia a real true story.

In my hometown in Belgium, locals pay less or even nothing for musea and busses.

Racism?

No.

My thai wife is considered to be a local, since she (sometimes) lives there.

No white person is ever considered to be a local automatically even if he is in fact a citizen of Thailand, such as Bill Heinecke is. Yet Filipinos or Indonesians, if they keep quiet, can be considered locals without showing anything. Whoops.

Though taxpayer-supported enterprises may price based ultimately on local ID, the initial application of the policy is based on skin color purely--which is, in fact, racist. Get that?

But private enterprises often don't accept any ID whatsoever for proving local status. Bill Heinecke, though a Thai citizen who can show a Thai ID card, will still be charged higher prices whereas rich Thais or quiet Filipinos or Indonesians won't. This is what is very, very disturbing.

It's best that all white people fight such discrimination rather than just rolling over and taking it while making various muddled excuses. That's only hope of ending it.

[jamora]

And this ia a real true story.

In my hometown in Belgium, locals pay less or even nothing for musea and busses.

Racism?

No.

My thai wife is considered to be a local, since she (sometimes) lives there.

No white person is ever considered to be a local automatically even if he is in fact a citizen of Thailand, such as Bill Heinecke is. Yet Filipinos or Indonesians, if they keep quiet, can be considered locals without showing anything. Whoops.

Though taxpayer-supported enterprises may price based ultimately on local ID, the initial application of the policy is based on skin color purely--which is, in fact, racist. Get that?

But private enterprises often don't accept any ID whatsoever for proving local status. Bill Heinecke, though a Thai citizen who can show a Thai ID card, will still be charged higher prices whereas rich Thais or quiet Filipinos or Indonesians won't. This is what is very, very disturbing.

It's best that all white people fight such discrimination rather than just rolling over and taking it while making various muddled excuses. That's only hope of ending it.

I am white, and I get charged local prices most of the time without being asked to show anything. Even when I bring friends from home or my parents, they are mostly charged local prices...

[Jingthing]

As I said before, that is one thing we CAN do. Avoid places that treat you differently based on your race, and reward places that don't with your business. We can also stop making excuses for these race based policies in general. The people behind these policies do NOT need our support for that.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Jingthing

[yermanee]

Fact is that white people stand out here in Thailand, and not in Europe, North-America, Australia etc.

So they are easily identified as foreigners and most possibly tourists, that's why it might be perceived as racism if they get treated differently, but it isn't !

Japanese, Taiwanese and other asian tourists get treated exactly the same way as any other tourist.

Yermanee

Edited February 15, 2011 by yermanee

[JSixpack]

I am white, and I get charged local prices most of the time without being asked to show anything. Even when I bring friends from home or my parents, they are mostly charged local prices...

Ocean World? Crocodile Farm? Tiffany Show? Ripley's Believe-It-Or-Not? Songtaew?

Get real.

"Mostly," whatever that means, isn't good enough.

Edited February 15, 2011 by JSixpack

[JSixpack]

As I said before, that is one thing we CAN do. Avoid places that treat you differently based on your race, and reward places that don't with your business. We can also stop making excuses for these race based policies in general. The people behind these policies do NOT need our support for that.

Hear, hear!

Edited February 15, 2011 by JSixpack

[Jingthing]

Fact is that white people stand out here in Thailand, and not in Europe, North-America, Australia etc.

So they are easily identified as foreigners and most possibly tourists, that's why it might be perceived as racism if they get treated differently, but it isn't !

Japanese, Taiwanese and other asian tourists get treated exactly the same way as any other tourist.

Yermanee

But it is. Look up the definition of racism. Any different treatment based on race in racism. It doesn't have to be lynching. If a person is assumed to be a tourist ripe for picking based on skin color even if they have lived here for 30 years, it is a kind of racism. Asians in the US have a similar problem. They could be fifth generation and a lot of Americans will still see them initially as some kind of foreign.

[yermanee]

Fact is that white people stand out here in Thailand, and not in Europe, North-America, Australia etc.

So they are easily identified as foreigners and most possibly tourists, that's why it might be perceived as racism if they get treated differently, but it isn't !

Japanese, Taiwanese and other asian tourists get treated exactly the same way as any other tourist.

Yermanee

But it is. Look up the definition of racism. Any different treatment based on race in racism. It doesn't have to be lynching. If a person is assumed to be a tourist ripe for picking based on skin color even if they have lived here for 30 years, it is a kind of racism. Asians in the US have a similar problem. They could be fifth generation and a lot of Americans will still see them initially as some kind of foreign.

Well you more or less prove my point, but let's agree to disagree.

Tourists are targets in every country.

Yermanee

[villagefarang]

Why the hysterical reactions to this particular word? Call it what you will, it isn't that big of a deal. Life isn't fair. Who knew?

[Jingthing]

In Thailand, even after people KNOW you aren't a tourist, we are still subject to racial variant policies at many places. Why be ostriches about something so obvious?

Edited February 15, 2011 by Jingthing

[jamora]

I am white, and I get charged local prices most of the time without being asked to show anything. Even when I bring friends from home or my parents, they are mostly charged local prices...

Ocean World? Crocodile Farm? Tiffany Show? Ripley's Believe-It-Or-Not? Songtaew?

Get real.

"Mostly," whatever that means, isn't good enough.

Have always paid local charges at national parks, asked for id around 1 out of 10 times, been to Ocean World 5 times, asked for id once I believe. Never been asked for id at Safari World, been there quite some times by now (even with family and friends form Denmark). Never been asked for id at the Red Cross snake farm or Oasis Sea World. Could keep on listing places.

I have however never been to Tiffany or Ripley's, and never been in a Songtaew so I can't tell.

I have once had a bad experience at some temple a bit north of Korat (can't remember the name), where they wanted me to pay farang price. I was there with a group of Thai friends where we were do a development project with Chulalongkorn University. We got mad at them, left and later filed a complaint to TAT via Chulalongkorn University.

[mstribling]

Nothing to get worked up about. After awhile you'll get the hang of it.

Jing- is there any subject you don't turn into a race debate?

It is a race thing, but it definitely works out ok.

[yermanee]

In Thailand, even after people KNOW you aren't a tourist, we are still subject to racial variant policies at many places. Why be ostriches about something so obvious?

Well then your experiences are different too mine, let's leave at that shall we.

I don't have any reason at all to feel victimized here in Thailand, doesn't mean I willingly pay to much for something.

Yermanee

[villagefarang]

In Thailand, even after people KNOW you aren't a tourist, we are still subject to racial variant policies at many places. Why be ostriches about something so obvious?

Well then your experiences are different too mine, let's leave at that shall we.

I don't have any reason at all to feel victimized here in Thailand, doesn't mean I willingly pay to much for something.

Yermanee

Some seem to be professional victims.

[Ulysses G.]

Jing- is there any subject you don't turn into a race debate?

The ones that he turns into a gay-bashing or a left versus right debate. Jingthing is not that easy to pigeonhole.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[villagefarang]

Jing- is there any subject you don't turn into a race debate?

The ones that he turns into a gay-bashing or a left versus right debate.

[Kan Win]

As Ian the OP mentioned at the start of this very good topic "Value For Your Money" nothing more and nothing less.

All the talk about "Racism" has nothing to do with you putting your hand in your pocket and actually paying for it or is it? If it really is a BIG problem to you, then just walk away, may your soles of your cheap sandals last long time and stay hungry .

All the Blah, Blah, Blah that most of you have written is very basic BSE (Bull <deleted> in English).

I do get me Value for my money now after living in the Kingdom of Thailand for many a year and for sure buying things at the Value that I think is for my Money.

As for National Parks I cover that one before in another thread, I pay "For the Value it give me".

Phraya Nakhon Cave - Khao Sam Roi Yot - The Royal Pavilion

Worth every Baht. I sold some as well so it paid its way

Sawadee

Edited February 15, 2011 by Kan Win

[jimbeam1]

I have never used it myself. But some time back we were staying with friends in Chaing Mia. We went to a park there. The guy showed his Thai driving Licence and got in for Thai price. Said he does it all the time. I didn't have mine with me.

jb1

[ozzieovaseas]

Hi Ian..Always appreciate your posts, considering the positive nature of them being so different than a lot of the others on here.

I've got to agree and commend you on your overall outlook, which im sure is largely in part to do with the appreciation of being able to spend time in two countries...

It helps keep your sanity somewhat and allows one to appreciate both sides of the fence..seeing how when you finally get bored of one side it is no sooner time to jump over again.

I have basically followed your doctrine throughout the last few years,however i have noticed a slight change this year. I dont know if you have?

Of course these things are regional, and my own perceptions might be way off, but i have noticed a few attitudes i havent noticed so much before.

Number one for me, is that when i have shown repeated generosity, as far as tipping goes, this seems to fly a red flag to "charge me what you want" next time. Not big stakes you understand, but just enough to notice that where there COULD have been some appreciation shown, in its place was seen as an opportunity to get more. I have noticed this in the female company too, more more more...and not just more in the future, i mean "I WANT IT NOW!" and im not talking about bargirls either. Maybe im keeping the wrong company nonetheless.

I have also noticed that the smiles and the all out happy go lucky nature seems to have been reeled back somewhat. Understandable, maybe in part due to all internal squabbling and political troubles. Considering "thai rak thai" and all that, it must be hard for the many decent nationalistic people to see whats unfolding in their country.

I guess we live in interesting times, not only with our times spent in LOS, but on an international level as well. Thailand seems to be in constant change, as is the rest of the world.

Mother nature seems to be taking out her revenge on the many years we have spent abusing her pearls for the want of personal gain and money. Greed and abuse, and coincidentally, at the same time, the people of the world seem to be raising their hands against each other for procisely the same reasons..the greed and abuse of the haves against the have nots.

Looking at the many disasters lately, in every continent, has now inflamed the situation where the cost of living has imploded due to crop failures and huge losses involved in insurance, that will seep to every level...and at a time when some of our financial systems have already imploded and are looking at a tough time ahead. Yearly growth cannot go on forever, unlike our private sectors expect it should..somethings gotta give

It makes me wonder what guys like us will find next year if we come to visit?? In my own case it makes me second guess (for the first time ever) whether i will be in need of a longer stay back home before i have the energy to do it all again.

[Wallaby]

If I go to a bar or restaurant and I believe I have received good service for a price the same as a thai then I will tip. That is MY choice to pay more.

But if I have to pay an inflated price simply because I'm a honky then that is NOT my choice to pay more, it is a decision that has been made for me.

Ian, you say that you are happy to give a tip to some chef slaving away (words to that effect). But why pay the inflated price to the owner? Why not get the thai price and actually give the tip to the person instead of it being taken from you simply for being white.

It doesn't get to me too much though. If I feel it is a good price I will tip, if I feel I've been hit with a farang price I won't tip and I won't return.

Tipping here in oz isn't necessary, the staff get decent hourly rates. I understand it's different in places like the US where the staff get low hourly rates and rely on tips. I would think the service is better there as the staff strive for the tips. Here in oz the staff are paid a lot better, but I have found over the last few years they have come to expect tips as well. Some restaurants even put the tip as part of the bill. Well I hate that, sort of trying to pressure you into tipping.

Tipping is just something new to me but I accept it is normal in other countries and will do so, but only give it directly to the staff that I think deserve it.

[Kan Win]

Value For Your Money

So to put me point across in a nutshell would you prefer to pay 20 baht for a dish of Kow Pat Kung that tastes like this

OR one for 150 baht that tastes like this

Your choice to what you think of "Value For Your Money" is here in Thailand, Sawadee

Edited February 15, 2011 by Kan Win

[transam]

As Ian the OP mentioned at the start of this very good topic "Value For Your Money" nothing more and nothing less.

All the talk about "Racism" has nothing to do with you putting your hand in your pocket and actually paying for it or is it? If it really is a BIG problem to you, then just walk away, may your soles of your cheap sandals last long time and stay hungry .

All the Blah, Blah, Blah that most of you have written is very basic BSE (Bull <deleted> in English).

I do get me Value for my money now after living in the Kingdom of Thailand for many a year and for sure buying things at the Value that I think is for my Money.

As for National Parks I cover that one before in another thread, I pay "For the Value it give me".

Phraya Nakhon Cave - Khao Sam Roi Yot - The Royal Pavilion

Worth every Baht. I sold some as well so it paid its way

Sawadee

Total Tosh.

Thai respect for Thais is being missed here.

My wife says a farang being charged different to Thais to eat is a rip off and the Thais that do it are laughing behind your backs, if it happened to me she would go and kill. If a farang goes to a restaurant he will get super treatment cos of his money BUT will not be charged more because they expect a nice tip. Any establishment that charges more for food cos of race is a disgrace to Thailand, may be poor people but demand respect for Thailand.

Nation Parks, Zoo's charge more for farangs cos the government think they are holiday makers and the charge is well under their home country charges.

Baht bus, coach, train or aeroplane, the cost is the same for farang or Thai, in fact if the farang has Internet can fly cheaper than Thais, so why food different for farang..

[IanForbes]

I think the OP is a part time expat. So perhaps his time here feels more like a vacation than for residents. That isn't good or bad but it might change your point of view.

He 'should change his point of view'.

Try this one on. He's black living in a predominantly white country.

How would he feel THEN about being over-charged because of the colour of his skin? And please save the racist 'white man earn more than black/brown man' crap.

Being treated differently because of the colour of your skin is racist. Full stop.

Why should I change my point of view? Are you telling me that I SHOULD become a racist? That is what it sounds like.

If I see someone not working when work is available then I won't give them squat. That is why I no longer give to charities in North America. The poor in NA already have many options of getting out of their predicament if they just got off their butts. I've seen how the Japanese Canadians were treated during the second world war when they had all their property stolen by the government and it was given to wealthy, white Canadian businessmen in back door dealings. But, after the war, and despite all the racism, the Japanese Canadians worked hard and regained their stolen wealth. 20 years later they owned the joint.

And, by contrast to that, the native peoples of Canada (First Nations, Indians, or call them what you want) who are offered everything for free, are still complaining how they were treated 70 years ago. The African Americans living in poverty are still crying about what happened to their grand parents 150 years ago.

But, that has little to do with my original topic. Why care about nickles and dimes... or satangs and Thai coins? Why waste your time worrying about "fairness"? As someone already pointed out... life isn't fair. Is it fair that I was born in a free country with all the opportunities available in North America, while some poor peasant in Issan or the slums of Bangkok can't even afford to go to school? Is the fair that there are desperate poor in India or Somalia who can't even get enough to eat while wealthy Europeans and North Americans are deciding between sirloin steak or tenderloin?

I don't care one bit about so called racism... directed at me or someone else. All I care about is how I live my life while not inflicting my interests on anyone else. If someone doesn't want to pay more for what a Thai can get for less then so be it. If you want to miss out on some pleasure because you think something isn't fair then that is your decision. Go somewhere else or move to another country that you consider to be better. There is much to like and just as much to dislike in every country. Don't try making Thailand into something it isn't and never will be.

Rant over.

[jimbeam1]

What some people seem to think is charging based on race (or nationality) which they characterize as "racism" is in fact free market pricing based on profiling. Westerners have been thoroughly indoctrinated that there is "one" price for everything and their whole lives have reinforced with virtually everything having a set, marked price.

When confronted with a market where the price is subject to minute to minute changes based on what the market will pay at that point, they choose to call it racism rather then a market with pricing based on pure capitalism, which they have never been exposed to before.

They then get all excited and huffy and don't buy (which is their right in pure capitalism) while the seller just shrugs his shoulders and waits for the next customer.

That is the entire point of Ian's OP. In pure capitalism you pay what the item or service is worth to you. That is only criteria.

TH

Bingo! Give thaihome a kewpie doll from the top shelf. He gets it.

If I think my extrra 100 baht will help some Thai working his butt off for a pittance than I'll do so. However, I also use my feet when someone is over charging for something I know I can get for much less elsewhere. Thailand is FULL of anomalies. You pay more for most electronics and other imported items, but much less for most services. As someone already said... Thailand is the wild west where you are on your own and have to take responsiblity for your own actions. I like it for that very feature. A simple traffic fine in Thailand varies between 200 and 400 baht. ANY traffic fine in Canada starts at the equivalent of 6000 baht. Which would you rather pay... even if the Thai traffic offence is somewhat of a ripoff to earn tea money for the local police?

Roll up, roll up, for the National Farang lucky dip. How much will you be charged this time?

Would also like to add. We were at On- Nut the other day and decided to have a look around the market, near the BTS, my girlfriend saw a dress clearly marked at 150bt Not expensive, she thought about it, asked me my opinion, decided to buy it. The lady said 250bt. Girlfriend looked at her smiled, got hold of my hand and walked away. Ok so at 250bt not expensive. But racism and priorities.

jb1

[pjclark1]

Sorry Ian

Maybe you shouldn't have started this thread, if you weren't prepared to listen to other peoples opinions.

I usually don't worry too much about sex tourists, live and let live is what I say.

But you appear to have totally lost the plot today.

[transam]

What some people seem to think is charging based on race (or nationality) which they characterize as "racism" is in fact free market pricing based on profiling. Westerners have been thoroughly indoctrinated that there is "one" price for everything and their whole lives have reinforced with virtually everything having a set, marked price.

When confronted with a market where the price is subject to minute to minute changes based on what the market will pay at that point, they choose to call it racism rather then a market with pricing based on pure capitalism, which they have never been exposed to before.

They then get all excited and huffy and don't buy (which is their right in pure capitalism) while the seller just shrugs his shoulders and waits for the next customer.

That is the entire point of Ian's OP. In pure capitalism you pay what the item or service is worth to you. That is only criteria.

TH

Bingo! Give thaihome a kewpie doll from the top shelf. He gets it.

If I think my extrra 100 baht will help some Thai working his butt off for a pittance than I'll do so. However, I also use my feet when someone is over charging for something I know I can get for much less elsewhere. Thailand is FULL of anomalies. You pay more for most electronics and other imported items, but much less for most services. As someone already said... Thailand is the wild west where you are on your own and have to take responsiblity for your own actions. I like it for that very feature. A simple traffic fine in Thailand varies between 200 and 400 baht. ANY traffic fine in Canada starts at the equivalent of 6000 baht. Which would you rather pay... even if the Thai traffic offence is somewhat of a ripoff to earn tea money for the local police?

Roll up, roll up, for the National Farang lucky dip. How much will you be charged this time?

Would also like to add. We were at On- Nut the other day and decided to have a look around the market, near the BTS, my girlfriend saw a dress clearly marked at 150bt Not expensive, she thought about it, asked me my opinion, decided to buy it. The lady said 250bt. Girlfriend looked at her smiled, got hold of my hand and walked away. Ok so at 250bt not expensive. But racism and priorities.

jb1

+1,

My wife the same. Good for you and especially your perhaps angry wife. 10 out of 10. A rip off is a rip off what ever country you are in.

Sorry, must add. My wife read your post and said your wife real Thai lady and feel like sister. Cool eh.

Edited February 15, 2011 by transam

[mstribling]

I feel I get good value for my money for services. Low wages make it kinda easy to get value.

I don't associate having my ass kissed the same as a good value.

[Kan Win]

But you appear to have totally lost the plot today.

"Value For Your Money" that is the plot of today on ThaiVisaDotCom.

Please make your point then pjclark1 about "Value For Your Money".

[yankee99]

We have the same price schemes in the USA. This not only applies to foreigners but for people living in other states and even cities. Disney world discounts for florida residents. County golf courses discount for county residents. Many bars in the flroda keys have different drink prices for locals...the list goes on.......