Dowry Payments

[Capricorn]

Everyone thinks you should pay something for a thai bride, but they all forget the simple facts.

If the families never had money the dont certainly need it (they only want it)and you'll probably get lots of bags of rice, heaps of wristfuls of string, and gold chain they found somewhere, (cause they would never have spent the money to buy it) and a pitiful little piece of land with no access that no one else in the family wants for your huge dowry. Did you get the value you wanted?

If the familes richer, if they like you, you might get a fair trade, if they really like you, their may be no transaction at all. Anyway the average thai family with wealth doesnt need our money, and would be insulted to think about taking such a small amount from us. Whatever token you may give is nearly always returned with extras thrown in.

If you want to help the "new family" of your beloved bride then do so by being able to offer them the same sort of help that they will give you in return. e.g when your brother in law dies and you have no money to send his sick wife the money for the funeral and their dogs on its last legs and about to croke...how much will they help you?

Matthew

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Hehehehe some have it ...some don't

[tks]

Hello ######.....hope all is well....you mentioned that you are "expected" to pay. By who? Her family? Her?

Try this one out. Smile, and tell her no. Tell her family no.

Tell her where you come from only bad girls and bad families take money for a bride. See her reaction. If she is in it for love, and if her family truly cares about her, it will be an issue for about a day.

But, if she or her family throws a hisse fit and pouts, then rethink her true position on your relationship.

Just say no....no huge gymnastic explanation. Mai dai.......real simple.

I remember when I first moved to my recent apartment and the landlord tried to overcharge me for something and I calmly looked at him and said "No, I can't pay that." Then he said I had to leave the apartment, I was no good (because I wouldn't let him scam me, I was no good, his dishonesty had nothing to do with it) so again, I calmly smiled and said "No, I am not leaving." He looked at me...stunned....and walked away.

Same thing on a couple trips over the border when the guards tried to shake me down for a bribe.....calmly said no each time. They have no idea how to handle it.

Always smile, and just say that one magical word...No.

Please, oh God please, don't fall for the "I have it so why shouldn't I give it to them" mindset that they want us to fall for.... (Not saying you would, but I hear so many guys say it)

There is a BIG difference between SPENDING money and WASTING it. A dowry is a waste. Culture or no culture.....a waste.

Just say no.

(Guys, I am on your side, so don't think I am getting on you, I am not)

[Head Snake]

This forum topic is a godsend to me right now.

I had asked the father to accept me marrying his Isan daughter this year. I hadn't even heard about a dowry requirement and was surprised that the subject was mentioned.

As I allowed them to help set a date, he ignored my wishes to marry later in the year to best withdraw money from stocks (reduce taxes by withdrawing later). While they were discussing dowry requirements, I reneged by mentioning there was a white lie that needed to be cleared up.

The girl had mentioined that a house was her sisters and she upkept while her sister was away. I found out it is hers so told the family I would have to know why she lied to me before I go forward with marriage plans.

This got me out of the marriage talks and bought me time to review the whole situation. I have mentioned to her the information from this thread. She says all thai weddings involve dowrys. I told her if it is important to her, then she can find another person. I told her I don't want to be a buffalo.

We'll see where this leads.

[maerim]

We'll see where this leads.

If you give in and fall for this I will tell you where it will lead.

It will lead to you making very frequent trips to your bank and not to make deposits either.

[griser]

Okay, I admit to being confused!

I've checked a lot of opinions on the Sin SoD (dowry) and some say No, it's not nesessary to pay the Dowry and others that say YES, it's essential!

My Thai wife tells me in her social circle it's unavoidable (middle class Thai/Chinese) She also tells me that the families in that social circle tend to keep the money. Now my wife's Dowry wasn't actually large (60,000 baht) so it wasn't a big deal.

I only got half of it back because my wife decided to give it to her sister. Her sister raised her BTW, both parents are dead.

My wife has a degree in Agricultural Chemistry and several of her relations own factories (small ones)

We did receive about 20,000 baht in cash gifts from her family which offset the 30,000 I lost sooooo... I hope this one mans experience helps!

I do stress this lady I married was in NO way associated with seedier side of thailand so the information here SHOULD represent the average Thai situation.

Greg

[Nonsi]

I think this is a quite important topic and would like to add my own experience.

It's surely right that the dowry is a common custom in Thailand. Therefore, it should be kept not to make the girl and her family losing face with their relatives and friends.

BUT the question is what happens with the dowry later on and I only can say that my mother-in-law gave it back to me the next day with the words "invest it into your's and my daughter's future".

I think it's the right way to handle that.

[Gatsby]

My wife told me that she wasn't a pair of shoes or a mobile phone, so she thought the concept of a dowry was silly. Her family agreed too. Her dad even told me that after buying her a ring and a plane ticket that I should say screw the wedding because his daughter is "Paang Mak"

Also to the above poster my wife is educated middle class as well, so everyones mileage can vary. She works in the legal proffession. I have never experienced any of the greed from her relatives that others report either. I can remeber her asking me to give her great aunt 500 baht once when we went to visit, but all the other family members gave her money too.

[NedKelly]

There have been some interesting replies posted here. Thanks for all the information. It definitely leads me to one conclusion. There seems to be no definite social norm regarding the payment of a bride price. Some sections of Thai society seem to have their own agendas while others may be merely following suit as it is beleived that the payment of a bride price will raise social status.

I can understand if a family is poor, they may see the opportunity to increase their wealth or raise their status, without giving a great deal of thought to where the custom originated. One thing that strikes me is what someone said earlier - that a female from a farming family would normally marry a man from another farming family. in cases like that I would imagine not a lot of money would change hands. Why should a farang pay a huge amount to marry someone. Maybe because many farang have the means. But many do not. But the fact is that marrying a farang may lead to a more comforttable life for the woman, but definitely not in 100% of cases. There are many stories of women being abused and so on when they live in another country. Unfortunately all farang seem to fit into the same basket...rich !!

Anyway, the situation is a confusing one and may be best treated with the same decision making process as when we I decide to give to beggars or not......it is simple......dont give to any of them. I am not putting families in the same category ass beggars, its just the decision to either pay or not to pay. Simple as that ! Anyway, no -one is an expert and all the replies are great....this is social research at it's best !!!

[tks]

Sorry about the long post, I wrote it between other emails.

Paying for a bride...buying a wife....selling your stocks??? GUYS.....this dowry thing is NOT a 100% thing in Thailand. A dowry is only asked for if they think they can scam it. If you say no, and she leaves you because of it, good! Better you learned now than later when it is too late.

If she loses face, she will get over it. Mai pen rai....right???!!! Is she or her family so fragile that they won't overcome it? Again, if so....run now.

You guys must have been here long enough to learn about Thai's that they will try all kinds of outrageous things, until confronted with a polite "no" then they back down instantly.

And don't get me started on Isaan! They are (generalization alert) the most deceitful, manipulative creatures on this planet. (My opinion) An 18 year Isaan girl can con a 50 year old business man from abroad out of his retirement savings in a few months!

Oh, and yes, I have seen it time and again. I just heard another great one from a guy who built a girl this palace of a house and soon after move in and a big old dowry, he came home one day to his belongings on the front yard, her brothers and their friends standing there...informing him that he no longer lived there, and they are no longer married. POOF....he is out of the picture, no legal standing or anything. No house, NOTHING! Bye bye Ms. Isaan. He got run out, and left Thailand with all his money gone!

Oh, I got more of them. How about the guy whose wife drained his bank account, gave it all to her brothers so they could gamble, get drunk and buy some whores. These are first hand, not rumors guys. It goes on and on!

Yes, I have the "upper" society stories too.

I should write a book!

If some father tells YOU when to withdraw money...run!!!! RUN, RUN, RUN!!!!

C'mon guys...keep your money!!!

Sorry, it pisses me off to see real good guys like all of you, with good intentions, get screwed time and time again. Like I wrote before, smile and just say no. Don't say anything else. You will stump them. I do it all the time.

Anyone who has any doubts about their situation please PM me. Thailand is all about avoiding "landmines" of one nature or another. My latest thing is teaching my friends how not to get shaken down for bribes at the border by Cambodian and Thai officials. These guys didn't even know they were paying bribes when they traveled.....I hate to be the bearer of bad news. Their 1,000 baht visa fees were 1,500 because of dishonest border officials. (Sidetracked there...SORRY)

Heads up guys.....Good luck!!!

[markt]

Those who paid rather large dowries try to justify it (to themselves mainly) that they done it because of their respect for Thai culture.

Rather if they hadn't paid up their wife wouldn't have married them. Doh!

[bprice]

I waited until my wife's mother was dead before we got married, so there was no one to give any money to. My wife, who is from Bangkok not from the country, said the normal amount is 200,000 THB.

[george]

I waited until my wife's mother was dead before we got married, so there was no one to give any money to. My wife, who is from Bangkok not from the country, said the normal amount is 200,000 THB.

Tactics! Well done!

[Guest ka1234]

Before my wife and I got married, I only heard about it once. Her uncle brought up the issue but she immediately told him to forget it. So no dowry here. However, we do send money to the family every now and then when it is needed (but no large amounts). Not different than any western family.

[32x]

tks,I find your posts very informative ,you see during my last visit to LOS i asked my TGF about dowry payment to her mum and what i should pay?.

She said i should pay something but it was up to me how much.

After a long chat we come to a sum of 60,000baht which i would pay.

The strange thing is a few days before sitting around the house her mum started talking in Thai pointing at me and and then the land behind her house,i asked my TGF wot mum was talking about and she told me that when we marry all this land will be mine!!.Well i was shocked to say the least,this is prime building land 2 minutes walk to large lake.A few days before i had bought some land up the road less than half the size for 75,000baht(bought the land under my TGF name)so thinking about it now 60,000baht isnt that much of a price to pay.

[Head Snake]

That's another subject.

My tgf had been talking about buying land for business opp. Now, I'm wondering: Just who really owns this land? a relative?? How many times has it been sold to farangs (and kept in the same thai family name)? How much is land really worth? Who do you talk to to get a fair price and proper deed and ownership?

This stuff has me thinking.

While I've hijacked the thread, what is "mia noi" and "LOS" mean?

[markt]

if you love the girl get the price down a bit and pay, my Thai mate said you can barter the price.

You're 'aving a larf, mate!

[markt]

And don't get me started on Isaan! They are (generalization alert) the most deceitful, manipulative creatures on this planet. (My opinion) An 18 year Isaan girl can con a 50 year old business man from abroad out of his retirement savings in a few months!

So many of them have been doing it for so long now does that make it "culture"?

[frenchFARANGbkk]

tks,I find your posts very informative ,you see during my last visit to LOS i asked my TGF about dowry payment to her mum and what i should pay?.

She said i should pay something but it was up to me how much.

After a long chat we come to a sum of 60,000baht which i would pay.

The strange thing is a few days before sitting around the house her mum started talking in Thai pointing at me and and then the land behind her house,i asked my TGF wot mum was talking about and she told me that when we marry all this land will be mine!!.Well i was shocked to say the least,this is prime building land 2 minutes walk to large lake.A few days before i had bought some land up the road less than half the size for 75,000baht(bought the land under my TGF name)so thinking about it now 60,000baht isnt that much of a price to pay.

How can you say this land will be yours when as soon your wife tells you BYEBYE, you know you can tell BYEBYE to the land as well...

But maybe you sold it right away after the family gave it to you, to get back your 60000 thb ?

[tks]

Thanks for the kind words. I sometimes hate to be the bearer of the ugly truth, but I will not sway from that path. As for the land thing, I will bet anything that there is already a grand scam on how to get something from you on it. Either you build something on it and get the big "Thai eviction notice" (all her brothers and their friends stopping you from entering the house and booting you out) or something. Maybe not now, maybe not in a year, but rest assured no Thai family is going to give you land (not in your name anyway) for the reason of being nice or generous. No way!

Another one of the things I do to avoid landmines here is thnk ten steps down the road when dealing with a Thai if something sounds fishy. I bet you can predict a scam before you get to step ten (Generalization alert).

As for the guys who pay dowrys because they are not "that much." I am sure the guys here can think of a way to throw your money away....you know, cause it's not that much, right? I admire those who can throw money away like that!

Maybe I'm a tightwad, but I would never even think of giving a girl or her family money if they were the inlaws of Jesus himself or if they were on their deathbed. And no, I don't give my family money, they have JOBS and businesses and savings. Yes, they WORK for a living. Try to talk to your little tilac about HER working and SAVING money for her future. Yeah, right! If it isn't your money going into her account, it isn't happening.

Besides, before you came along, they were surviving right? Okay guys, hate this if you want, but many guys who come here have this "Knight in Shining Armor" fantasy where they think they are rescuing these girls. Yeah, right....again, they were fine before you came, and if your money stopped, they would be fine without you cause they would boot you and find some guy just like you to tap into his bank account.

If you are pouring money out to this girl and her family, you are special now. If your money stops, you are no longer special. Done and you are gone.

See, they equate you caring for them if "you care for me, you take care of me."

"You no give me money, you not take care of me...you no love me.....goodbye."

Sorry folks....generalizations, but so true.

Just say no!

Peace

[Guest ka1234]

The strange thing is a few days before sitting around the house her mum started talking in Thai pointing at me and and then the land behind her house,i asked my TGF wot mum was talking about and she told me that when we marry all this land will be mine!!

Nice. Except that it can't become yours. Unless you are a Thai citizen, you can not own land in Thailand.

[markt]

You farang, you know too much.

Don't listen to him, he bad man.

[32x]

To all those who dont trust there TGF or THAI WIVES,WOT THE ###### ARE YOU WITH THEM FOR???.

Yes the land i bought is under my future wives name,so wot?

How many farrang women in the west have all there husbands property in there names? wanna know who?all the rich ones!!Just in case they get into money problems.

Ok this isnt the same,but im more than happy to have TGF`s name in everything that i buy in the future in Thailand.

Im ganna draw up paper work,hire a brief for the sake of a few thousand pounds?

My aim in life is to retire to LOS in 5 years time,by then i will be married,might have kids and a small quest house,IF I DIDNT TRUST MY FUTURE WIFE I WOULD`NT BE WITH HER!!.

[frenchFARANGbkk]

I would like INTERNET still exist :-) and this website as well ten years later, and people keep the same nickname, to see if they were right to trust or if they will ask "what can I do, not to loose everything I had...?"

[markt]

IF I DIDNT TRUST MY FUTURE WIFE I WOULD`NT BE WITH HER!!.

And if i didn't pay the dowry mine wouldn't be with me.

[frenchFARANGbkk]

In the west my wife knows if she steals me everything I have, the police won't help her to kick me out of the country.... :-)

Do you know that some people are even thinking it's normal to send some money monthly to support a wife who already had children with somebody else?

Or that others (still farang) could even become monk to please mrs beloved?

what a joke!

[32x]

Joke is you write on this board about someone you dont know!!.

You think all situations are the same?.

You think all Thai women are the same and you know them 100%?

How many couples split up each year?

Many times with children involved?

So my TGF has a child that isnt mine,so wot?.

So i want to become a Monk for 7 days to make her happy?

May be it should be you FARRANGFRENCHMAN who could do with a few days in a wat?.

So there has been many cases of farrangs being ripped off,this happens all over the world people!!.

So you want me to crash and burn because you told me so??

If thats the way you feel i pity you.

[Candyflip]

Seem like you think about getting divorce before getting maried, French man!

People normally have an idea to be together till the rest of their life when they get married. Why would bother thinking about how much you would lose if the relationship does not work out before hand?

Dowry payment is endless discussion as someone said before. I would have a hard time marrying someone who disaagree to pay it. It is not that my family need the money ( they will give it all to me anyway), but it has been followed in the family as a tradition for ages. You are farang so you want an exception? then you are putting me in between a lover and a family! That would give me a hard time.

Just a point of view in practical level.

[tks]

Hey Candyflip--

I am glad you mentioned that a dowry is YOUR family tradition. And the guy has to 100% give up ALL of his family traditions. HE is allowed no traditions because he lives here. NONE??? The guy has to become a quasi Thai and get rid of everything he is and knows. IF that is the case, why don't you just marry a Thai guy then?

We know the answer to that! Thai guys for the most part don't have the resources foreign guys do, or theThai guys know the scams and won't fall for them like foreign guys will. You can't manipulate a Thai guy like a Westerner, that is why.

My point all along has been to compromise. Meet in the middle. For the guys who are so bent on paying for a wife (God save you), and no amount of sense can change your minds, I proposed earlier the following compromise:

1) Agree to a dowry amount the guy can afford. No selling retirement savings/investments as all. Do not sacrifice your future guys!

2) Set up a time frame of say, five years. If the two are still married after that time, pay half of the dowry then.

3) Pay the remaining 50% after say ten years.

If a girl truly loves you, she should have no problem with this because--

a) You respected her culture 100% (the only way Thais are happy) and agreed to pay a dowry.

She saves face right? You agreed to pay (Just not right now)

I will tell you why scamming Thais would never go for this.

1) They give up power over the guy, since now the guy still holds the money. She can't just boot you when a wealthier guy comes along and say "at least I got his money before I got rid of him." That power is gone.

2) She actually has to be faithful and contribute to the marriage. Wow...she has to WORK at it. Work, such a dirty word here. Remember to a Thai, a week is a lifetime, so try and explain five years in the future to them....IMPOSSIBLE!

3) Five years is plenty of time for you to find out the rest of the lies she and her family have been hiding over the last 6-24 months that you have probably known her. And believe me, lies will come out.

And yes, you cannot own land here. You can USE it, not own it. Build a house on it, and the minute she wants you out, her brothers and friends will throw your stuff out the door, and stand there, not letting you in, which I call a "Thai eviction notice." Cause some trouble over this, and she will call the police, and guess what your options are at that point my friend? Either walk away and lose everything or get arrested. Great choices huh? You are gone! No legal rights whatsoever...NONE!

Do not relinquish so much control to her and her family. You have no rights, nothing here. Why do guys do this??? No matter how much I jump up and down here some guys are sitting there saying "Not me, not my little darling, she wouldn't do it to me!"

Why wouldn't she? There are millions of guys pouring into Thailand every year, and a good percentage of them have more resources than you or I , and you could be replaced in a second (me included). I see these 40-60 year old guys (don't sweat it, I am in this age group too) with these 20-30 year old girls, thinking they are wonderful women. Ask yourself this....were you pulling down these little darling type of women in your home country??? No, I bet not. Don't get pissed at me for this....it is reality.

Westerners don't have the frame of mind to reference the sense of dishonesty that the "culture" breeds here. We are not used to it, we can't imagine someone could be like this, let alone an entire country.

That is why you do not pay a dowry, and if you do, put it on the 5 and 10 year plan. She will freak out about it.....and guess what, you have your answer to everything you need to know about her honesty and her intentions.

More shout outs to the PMs guys--thanks! That old corny saying "If I can just save one person, it will all be worth it!"

The best advice I have received from two people coincidentally within the same week about living here-- Avoid Thais when possible, except when they need something from you in business.

I will add to that, except when I need some Thai food!

I heard another one which is much more graphic "Thais are good for the two F's, food and f**king, and then get out, they are worthless. (He is more blunt than even me!)

Good luck.....this place has more landmines than Cambodia!

Stock answer to the tired and simplistic "Why are you here then?"

1) I am on a break from my career

2) Dig the food

3) Dig the weather

4) Dig the cheap cost of living

And I do like it here. I didn't come to find a girlfriend or wife. I never got burnt by a Thai girl, and I am not bitter, just honest and realistic.

[parryhandy]

tks

Brilliant post and absolutely spot on ........