13 Girls Rescued From Prostitution After Raid On Karaoke Bar In Chiang Mai's Muang District

[mark45y]

inmysights and spee ... As I said to you before "most" of us

I hope the above was simply a slip of the keyboard but looking back at a number of posts I do get the distinct impression there are not so subtle hints of some people not seeing the underage part as an issue

Edit: after posting this I see yet another post that seems to be justifying underage girls working in the sex industry. So, I apologize as both of your condemnations seem very appropriate and my positive thinking of others here may not be all that correct.

I hope you are not referring to me. I think it is a big issue. I think the Thai police should go in there and arrest any man who is married to a woman under 18 without judicial permission. That would straighten things out. Prostitution, close them all down. It is almost all Thais using them anyway. Would not effect me one iota. If you are going to talk the talk you should walk the walk.

[ginjag]

Anyone involved in the abuse and maltreatment of children should be given the harshest of legal and societal discipline. One thing I didn't see too much of in this thread was people being pissed off at the relatives. Selling a child to a stranger for money knowing full well the life that lies ahead for them, has got to be in the top 10 list of most cruel things that one human being can do to another. The bar owners and patrons are just parasites festering in an open wound. The relatives should receive societal scorn and legal punishment.

These women came from an area where women get married at 12. Maybe you should try changing their customs. But they might get upset because women always married at 12 years of age in that area. Go ahead you tell em it's wrong and their history and traditions are outdated.

A 12 year old CHILD is neither a woman nor a man. Have you ever met any?

I am not saying they are. Hill tribe people refer to them as women because they are married. It is not my idea. It is a Thai hill tribe thing. Don't believe me go look. Find females wearing white in the villages and ask them how old they are. But don't get mad at me. Because I report a custom does not mean I agree with it. I don't like the rings around the neck thing either.

I agree, you were giving an honest reply. and the situ in the area. I must be very difficult to administer fair justice in areas like this. But again anyone forced into this (work) should have to be protected

[Nisa]

I have been in thailand both as a tourist and an expat for over 10 yrs, and there is no doubt in my mind that the girls in bars which service farangs are actually quite happy to be there particularly in tourist areas. I was in one such beer-bar last night (drinking only) and all the girls was laughing and giggling, and dancing around. Sure they are pro's and so a lot of that is an act, but I am very good at spotting human behaviour etc. And there was no cracks in their act.... Thay really were having fun (without a client in sight). Now go into Robinsons where have the staff are uni-grads and see can you spot a single one smiling? The miserable sods! Now I am not saying that all girls should grow up, be a prostitute, and hence be happy.... But what I am saying is that it is not as bad as some would have us believe, and they are there by choice and preference! Our western values base simply does not let most farangs accept that.

I've been to numerous jails and prisons and watched inmates laugh, joke, sing, play sports (sort of) and I can assure you the overwhelming vast majority of them didn't want to be there and trust me, prison is much worse than most people want to believe. It is no different in prostitution and regardless of how many people want to tell you differently these girls are still looked down on by Thais and few Thais would ever knowingly marry a girl who has been in the business. In fact if you ask many Thai males something they find odd about farangs it is that we allow ourselves to be seen in public with prostitutes. Please do yourself a favor and ask some ex-working girls her or in any country if they enjoyed selling their body to strangers.

[HerbalEd]

How is this even news worthy? I was just on Koh Samui for a month. My classmates and I went out on different occasions to Lamai and Chawang for drinks. In Lamai there is a central square of bars around a Thai boxing ring. On any given night there are perhaps 100 girls (and ladyboys), give or take, working at these bars. All of them dressed like hookers and dancing on the poles installed in each tiny open air establishment. Many were open and fairly brazen about what they were there for. I decided to do my own research and bought a drink for the 20ish looking waitress who had been serving us a drinks and said I wanted her to join me for a while. She spoke fairly good English. She went into sales mode instantly but I calmed her anticipated action and said I want to talk for a while first. She was actually 30 and has a 12 year old son and 8 year old daughter back home in Isaan. She had been on Samui for 6 months already and claimed she was saving to go home. (Grain of salt taken) I asked how much to spend the night with her. 300 baht to the bar and 1000 baht to her. I asked how many other girls do I have to choose from. "Any one you see" was the answer. I asked how many were local girls. "Not many" was the answer. I estimate, from what I saw, that besides these 100 or so in this square, there were maybe another 200 in Lamai and the club scene in Chawang having at least that many as well. Point being, how is a bust on one tiny club involving a whopping 13 girls even worth talking about? And as we all know, this does not even represent a real bust. Perhaps the proprietors missed a payment to the local cops or to the local mafia. At any rate, there are thousands of girls across Thailand selling their wares on a daily basis without even feigning discretion due to fear of being caught let alone needing to be "freed" from their "captors". Although many girls would prefer not to be doing this kind of "work", they are certainly not being forced into it. It is relatively easy money and easy to get into. Sympathy? Sympathetic about the whole situation, but these girls are making their own choices.

You're mostly right but you paint with a very broad brush. Do you say the same thing about 13 year old girls? Are they capable of "making their own (rational) choices"? BTW, it's OK that you were chatting up the girls ... you don't have to pretend you're some sort of cultural anthropologist doing research.

[ginjag]

I have been in thailand both as a tourist and an expat for over 10 yrs, and there is no doubt in my mind that the girls in bars which service farangs are actually quite happy to be there particularly in tourist areas. I was in one such beer-bar last night (drinking only) and all the girls was laughing and giggling, and dancing around. Sure they are pro's and so a lot of that is an act, but I am very good at spotting human behaviour etc. And there was no cracks in their act.... Thay really were having fun (without a client in sight). Now go into Robinsons where have the staff are uni-grads and see can you spot a single one smiling? The miserable sods! Now I am not saying that all girls should grow up, be a prostitute, and hence be happy.... But what I am saying is that it is not as bad as some would have us believe, and they are there by choice and preference! Our western values base simply does not let most farangs accept that.

I've been to numerous jails and prisons and watched inmates laugh, joke, sing, play sports (sort of) and I can assure you the overwhelming vast majority of them didn't want to be there and trust me, prison is much worse than most people want to believe. It is no different in prostitution and regardless of how many people want to tell you differently these girls are still looked down on by Thais and few Thais would ever knowingly marry a girl who has been in the business. In fact if you ask many Thai males something they find odd about farangs it is that we allow ourselves to be seen in public with prostitutes. Please do yourself a favor and ask some ex-working girls her or in any country if they enjoyed selling their body to strangers.

Thai bar girls ladyboys and boys, in the (industry) don't give a fig about about what other thais think of them, and if they heard a word wrong they would certainly get more than irate.---If a Thai wanted to marry a girl would he ask her if she had worked in a bar !! Did the ex working girl enjoy it--you wouldn't get an honest answer. Thai males in general don't give a fig if they see a farrang in public with a bar girl,(promiscuous) as long as it's not his lady. your survey amongst Thai males has to be Questioned

[LingLek]

How is this even news worthy? I was just on Koh Samui for a month. My classmates and I went out on different occasions to Lamai and Chawang for drinks. In Lamai there is a central square of bars around a Thai boxing ring. On any given night there are perhaps 100 girls (and ladyboys), give or take, working at these bars. All of them dressed like hookers and dancing on the poles installed in each tiny open air establishment. Many were open and fairly brazen about what they were there for. I decided to do my own research and bought a drink for the 20ish looking waitress who had been serving us a drinks and said I wanted her to join me for a while. She spoke fairly good English. She went into sales mode instantly but I calmed her anticipated action and said I want to talk for a while first. She was actually 30 and has a 12 year old son and 8 year old daughter back home in Isaan. She had been on Samui for 6 months already and claimed she was saving to go home. (Grain of salt taken) I asked how much to spend the night with her. 300 baht to the bar and 1000 baht to her. I asked how many other girls do I have to choose from. "Any one you see" was the answer. I asked how many were local girls. "Not many" was the answer. I estimate, from what I saw, that besides these 100 or so in this square, there were maybe another 200 in Lamai and the club scene in Chawang having at least that many as well. Point being, how is a bust on one tiny club involving a whopping 13 girls even worth talking about? And as we all know, this does not even represent a real bust. Perhaps the proprietors missed a payment to the local cops or to the local mafia. At any rate, there are thousands of girls across Thailand selling their wares on a daily basis without even feigning discretion due to fear of being caught let alone needing to be "freed" from their "captors". Although many girls would prefer not to be doing this kind of "work", they are certainly not being forced into it. It is relatively easy money and easy to get into. Sympathy? Sympathetic about the whole situation, but these girls are making their own choices.

Two points. One. The issue of choice is largely illusory. Think about it. Easy money, as you call it, already compromises choice as a somehow uncircumscribed act of volition. But there are lots of earlier environmental or social pressures which don't allow much in the way of a voluntary destiny. Bar-girls, prostitutes, etc, have been pre-selected. Two. The moment you grant 'these girls are making their own choices', you grant that your 'choice' is innocent.

[TAWP]

Two points. One. The issue of choice is largely illusory. Think about it. Easy money, as you call it, already compromises choice as a somehow uncircumscribed act of volition. But there are lots of earlier environmental or social pressures which don't allow much in the way of a voluntary destiny. Bar-girls, prostitutes, etc, have been pre-selected. Two. The moment you grant 'these girls are making their own choices', you grant that your 'choice' is innocent.

It is so sad to read this forum, full of posts from people that have no clue about the reality or try to apply their own image about morality on everyone else.

Should I go around the large number of tenants in this building and tell them that they were pre-selected and was forced into the trade? They might be surprised, as they chose it themselves. Some do it part-time, some actually study at the same time, some do it full-time etc. All like the money and express how they would not want to work like the maid of the building, getting 6.5k/month for 6 days a week all year around.

One neighbor and her boyfriend is going to build a house. She worked in a shop but two weeks ago started working at a large massage place in the area - and managed to get 5 clients on her first day. She was very happy - and got little over 8k in 'salary' and tips...that is better than I and many of you make [if hired locally].

[LingLek]

Two points. One. The issue of choice is largely illusory. Think about it. Easy money, as you call it, already compromises choice as a somehow uncircumscribed act of volition. But there are lots of earlier environmental or social pressures which don't allow much in the way of a voluntary destiny. Bar-girls, prostitutes, etc, have been pre-selected. Two. The moment you grant 'these girls are making their own choices', you grant that your 'choice' is innocent.

It is so sad to read this forum, full of posts from people that have no clue about the reality or try to apply their own image about morality on everyone else.

Should I go around the large number of tenants in this building and tell them that they were pre-selected and was forced into the trade? They might be surprised, as they chose it themselves. Some do it part-time, some actually study at the same time, some do it full-time etc. All like the money and express how they would not want to work like the maid of the building, getting 6.5k/month for 6 days a week all year around.

One neighbor and her boyfriend is going to build a house. She worked in a shop but two weeks ago started working at a large massage place in the area - and managed to get 5 clients on her first day. She was very happy - and got little over 8k in 'salary' and tips...that is better than I and many of you make [if hired locally].

I'll try to make things clearer, and simpler. (I'm not talking about those "forced' into the trade. A wholly separate issue.) By 'pre-selected' I mean their options for a better life are so limited the attractions of prostitution are all too obvious. Pre-selected means that they have few or no options for the same sort of money that will buy them a house, a car, a life for their kids, other than to trade on their looks. To answer one of your points directly. The maid of the building who gets '6.5k/month for 6 days a week all year around' is not a role model; she is what a prostitute does NOT want to be. That too (negatively) circumscribes her choices. Try looking into why it is not attractive to be a maid. You might like to start out by asking yourself: would I like to be a maid? Then go to your remarkably chatty neighbor and ask her. Of course prostitutes like the money! Who wouldn't? Now try asking that maid of yours why she's never considered prostitution. You might learn a thing or two.

I'll put this another way. There is nothing wrong in prostitution. It is one of the few honest professions left. What is wrong is the conclusion that because it pays well, and because a prostitute says it pays better than servitude or shop assistance, it is embraced freely as a career-choice. Prostitutes rarely go home to their families and relatives to brag of their successes.

[Nisa]

The vast majority of prostitutes in Thailand, like anywhere else, were abused as children and a significant number of them enter the trade when they are still teens or even before they are eve 18. Yes, they have learned to live 'the life" and make the most of it but you are either very uninformed or just not wanting to accept reality if you believe most working girls here are happy being a prostitute. Prostitution is like drug addiction and very hard to get out of once you enter it.

These girls almost all .... come from poor families where they were abused, got little education and were treated as worthless by their families. Some are tricked, some are sold and others ran away while others felt no choice but to leave and find away to help support their families and or the child they have had from a man who refuses to provide financial support.

Many send money home to support their family and child as well as to try to get the approval they never got from their family growing up but they don't tell their family they are a prostitute and instead make up stories of imagined jobs or rich boyfriends.

I certainly wouldn't call it a conscious choice of wanting riches and fun when you enter this world as a child or were shown you have little value as a child except as a piece of meat to men.

[kdc1899]

what happens to the gals whose familys already received compensation?

If they have not earned their "sin sod" then they still owe someone and will absolutely be doing something to break even.

[TAWP]

No, a majority of the girls in the trade wasn't abused as children. That is a myth on par with that the majority of adult actresses in US was abused as children.

And LingLek, you seem to have an odd concept of 'pre-selected'. You think that because they find that it makes more money than other jobs that it is somehow a forced alternative? Nonsense. Everything is a choice.

Have any of you ever talked to anyone in the trade? And I don't mean the sob-story designed to make you send them money...

[Nisa]

No, a majority of the girls in the trade wasn't abused as children. That is a myth on par with that the majority of adult actresses in US was abused as children.

From a UN Report

A study of 678 prostitutes from 91 sex establishments in Bangkok and other

provinces ranging in age from 12 to 53 years, with the majority aged 15 to

24 years. Twelve per cent of the commercial sex workers were below 18 years of age

and some 40 to 50 per cent of the remainder began working as prostitutes before the age

of 18 years. Eight to 12 per cent of over 18-year-olds had begun working before the age

of 15 years

At the family level, common characteristics included

family breakdown (46 per cent of cases),

low socio-economic status (100 percent of cases),

history of incest (73 percent of cases),

physical abuse and violence (64 percent of cases).

Edited February 17, 2011 by Nisa

[LingLek]

No, a majority of the girls in the trade wasn't abused as children. That is a myth on par with that the majority of adult actresses in US was abused as children.

And LingLek, you seem to have an odd concept of 'pre-selected'. You think that because they find that it makes more money than other jobs that it is somehow a forced alternative? Nonsense. Everything is a choice.

Have any of you ever talked to anyone in the trade? And I don't mean the sob-story designed to make you send them money...

Thanks Tawp for your response. Perhaps the concept looks odd because I haven't clarified it as well as I should. I mean that various life-circumstances - access to education, peer and parental pressures, media, local cultural valences, you name it - channel an individual's decision-making faculties into particular directions, enlargening some, narrowing others. This applies to you and me, as well as prostitutes. To say 'Everything is a choice' implies a kind of Olympian freedom from any constraint whatsoever. Even you Tawp, will have made choices dictated to a large extent by the conditions that have formed you, or which have enabled you to imagine you are making them voluntarily. Are you saying, for example, that when you chose to live in Thailand you did so without any shaping or inhibiting factors bearing on your decision whatsoever?

Yes I do know many people in the trade.

And to the person who imagines that prostitutes have a great time being prostitutes, try to put their giggles and jokes into context. It is what they have learned to do, and what works best for them. (There's fun in prison, too, as one correspondent has already pointed out, and even hell has its moments.) Prostitution is a job, don't forget, and laughter, whether felt or simulated, comes with the territory.

[TAWP]

Yes, it is a job. And at many jobs the job in itself is boring, annoying, routine or many other adjectives. The problem is that so many people assume this job must mean something very different than a choice of another kind of jobs.

And to be ontopic: Force into a job via slavery or being sold as part of debt-collection etc is despicable, no-matter what the job is.

[rammis35]

Have you ever been to Vegas, Los Angeles, Amsterdam, Frankfurt's Redlight district, or The Wall in Nuremberg? I'm sure there are a lot more.

I doubt Thailand invented this industry.

True. Thailand neither invented prostitution, nor karaoke bars. Then again, I doubt that you'll find 13-year old prostitutes (this fact perhaps even being known by some government officials) in Amsterdam, Frankfurt or the US. Nor will parents in those places sell their teenage daughters to brothels.

Actually there was a new report last week here in the US were they were finding groups in neighborhoods offering the local girls for prostitution ages as low as 13. They were found in several cities around the country. I can't quite remember which program it was but I think it was a CBS news show. So this does happen in the US, maybe not on the scale as Thailand but it happens.

[OzMick]

The vast majority of prostitutes in Thailand, like anywhere else, were abused as children and a significant number of them enter the trade when they are still teens or even before they are eve 18. Yes, they have learned to live 'the life" and make the most of it but you are either very uninformed or just not wanting to accept reality if you believe most working girls here are happy being a prostitute. Prostitution is like drug addiction and very hard to get out of once you enter it.

These girls almost all .... come from poor families where they were abused, got little education and were treated as worthless by their families. Some are tricked, some are sold and others ran away while others felt no choice but to leave and find away to help support their families and or the child they have had from a man who refuses to provide financial support.

Many send money home to support their family and child as well as to try to get the approval they never got from their family growing up but they don't tell their family they are a prostitute and instead make up stories of imagined jobs or rich boyfriends.

I certainly wouldn't call it a conscious choice of wanting riches and fun when you enter this world as a child or were shown you have little value as a child except as a piece of meat to men.

Enough! your ignorance of the thai bar scene overwhelms me. I frequent local "girlie" bars several nights a week because I enjoy talking with my female Thai friends, all of whom know my thai lady, and that I am firmly attached and don't play away. I don't "pay' for conversation with drinks or money, though I often buy a bottle of whisky for a birthday girl.

Bar girls do not consider themselves to be prostitutes. if you were to describe one as a so-pee-nee you would most likely get a well-deserved smack in the chops.

They are very happy when they get a date for the night (or an hour or so) because they are earning good money with little effort. They leave the bar with a big smile accompanied by a customer they are prepared to do business with. There is no coercion to accept a customer, other than financial.

It is very rare to find a "local". The girls work far from home so that when they return only those that they wish to know, know of their history.

Very few have any intention of marrying a thai man. To do so would be an act of financial suicide.

"........a piece of meat to men. " What are they to the lesbian and bisexual women who seek their services? something else?

None of the bar-owners that I know would accept an under-age girl because of the legal risk, and take pains to check.

Many of the girls express the desire to marry a farang, though most would prefer to live in thailand. Working in a bar increases the chances of this happening manifold.

Many of the girls have told me that bar work is liberating - they don't have a thai man giving orders, expecting slave -like attention, and taking their pay packet. The money that they earn is split one way and they use it for bikes, phones clothes, jewellery..................and quite often send money home.

It may seem strange to you, but some find at least some of their customers sexually attractive. "Freebies" are not uncommon for younger "law" men.

there are also "xmas beetles" - girls that show up for the high season and disappear in Feb. I know quite a few who show up at the same bar every year, and then go home to mum and the kids. Note the absence of husband.

How does that lot fit in with your googled statistics?

[brahmburgers]

As much as anything else, going to the big town/city is a BIG LURE for many young girls.

I reside in a rural setting, and in the course of things (primarily via working with Hill Tribe parents) I see their daughters get inexorably drawn to going to the city. I've spoken with some of these girls, even offered them jobs cleaning houses or other such mundane work for ok wages (as much as their parents earn). Invariably, the girls will grin while listening to my warnings ("the city is a bad place, with many people trying to get you in to the sex business) - yet they will wind up going nevertheless, as if drawn by a giant chick magnet - and more often than not they'll wind up as bar girls. An exception is two girls who I helped pay for them to go thru 2-year Nurses Aide courses. All the rest (roughly 3 dozen I've known) go to the city and I might see them a couple years later when they look 10 years older.

I went one evening to the ground floor of a big hotel in Chiang Mai. In the big bar there, we 5 farang watched a 'floor show' which consisted of loud recorded pop song (always has to be recorded and always v. loud, as it was a Thai venue). Individually and in groups of 3 to 7, Thai ladies (not hill tribers) came out on the stage to 'dance.'

Every woman had attractive features, around 20 yrs old, stone faced, dull-eyed, scantily clad, - and their 'dance' consisted of only right step out, right step in, ....no variations. There must have been over 40 girls altogether, strung out on the venue. The message which blasted in to my brain was: Thailand turns its young women in to sex objects. That's it. There are myriad forces within Thai 'society' which compel young women to be sex objects. Sure, there's some of that in all societies, but Thailand must take the cake.

[61guitarman61]

The vast majority of prostitutes in Thailand, like anywhere else, were abused as children and a significant number of them enter the trade when they are still teens or even before they are eve 18. Yes, they have learned to live 'the life" and make the most of it but you are either very uninformed or just not wanting to accept reality if you believe most working girls here are happy being a prostitute. Prostitution is like drug addiction and very hard to get out of once you enter it.

These girls almost all .... come from poor families where they were abused, got little education and were treated as worthless by their families. Some are tricked, some are sold and others ran away while others felt no choice but to leave and find away to help support their families and or the child they have had from a man who refuses to provide financial support.

Many send money home to support their family and child as well as to try to get the approval they never got from their family growing up but they don't tell their family they are a prostitute and instead make up stories of imagined jobs or rich boyfriends.

I certainly wouldn't call it a conscious choice of wanting riches and fun when you enter this world as a child or were shown you have little value as a child except as a piece of meat to men.

Enough! your ignorance of the thai bar scene overwhelms me. I frequent local "girlie" bars several nights a week because I enjoy talking with my female Thai friends, all of whom know my thai lady, and that I am firmly attached and don't play away. I don't "pay' for conversation with drinks or money, though I often buy a bottle of whisky for a birthday girl.

Bar girls do not consider themselves to be prostitutes. if you were to describe one as a so-pee-nee you would most likely get a well-deserved smack in the chops.

They are very happy when they get a date for the night (or an hour or so) because they are earning good money with little effort. They leave the bar with a big smile accompanied by a customer they are prepared to do business with. There is no coercion to accept a customer, other than financial.

It is very rare to find a "local". The girls work far from home so that when they return only those that they wish to know, know of their history.

Very few have any intention of marrying a thai man. To do so would be an act of financial suicide.

"........a piece of meat to men. " What are they to the lesbian and bisexual women who seek their services? something else?

None of the bar-owners that I know would accept an under-age girl because of the legal risk, and take pains to check.

Many of the girls express the desire to marry a farang, though most would prefer to live in thailand. Working in a bar increases the chances of this happening manifold.

Many of the girls have told me that bar work is liberating - they don't have a thai man giving orders, expecting slave -like attention, and taking their pay packet. The money that they earn is split one way and they use it for bikes, phones clothes, jewellery..................and quite often send money home.

It may seem strange to you, but some find at least some of their customers sexually attractive. "Freebies" are not uncommon for younger "law" men.

there are also "xmas beetles" - girls that show up for the high season and disappear in Feb. I know quite a few who show up at the same bar every year, and then go home to mum and the kids. Note the absence of husband.

How does that lot fit in with your googled statistics?

Yes, they like the western ettiqette and civility that comes with most sober western patrons. At the end of the night, when all that white prince chivalry is replaced by finding a suitable hole for the night, the girls are also happy to oblige as that is their real meal ticket. They only earn 100 to 200 baht per night from the bar after all. Your civil and friendly treatment of one specific girl is also accepted and reciprocated perhaps because she is hoping for a farang husband who will take her away from that scene and give her a better life. Some Thai husbands are more then happy to send their wives to resort areas to make more money in 4 months than they are able to earn in a year themselves. The whole thing is still based on money no matter how you slice it. Personal civility or even friendships are indeed possible but these girls also know how fleeting one of these "freindships" can be as well. The farang is there and sweet and generous and then gone as fast he he came. so she moves to the next possibility, or sugar daddy, as the case might be. Happy in that life? The Thai woman is generally a master at masking true feelings. They can have a big smile and laughing and be crying inside. Thai culture does not let these negative feelings show.

Edited February 18, 2011 by 61guitarman61

[Scott]

One seriously off-topic post deleted. Please focus on the topic of the thread.

[ginjag]

The vast majority of prostitutes in Thailand, like anywhere else, were abused as children and a significant number of them enter the trade when they are still teens or even before they are eve 18. Yes, they have learned to live 'the life" and make the most of it but you are either very uninformed or just not wanting to accept reality if you believe most working girls here are happy being a prostitute. Prostitution is like drug addiction and very hard to get out of once you enter it.

These girls almost all .... come from poor families where they were abused, got little education and were treated as worthless by their families. Some are tricked, some are sold and others ran away while others felt no choice but to leave and find away to help support their families and or the child they have had from a man who refuses to provide financial support.

Many send money home to support their family and child as well as to try to get the approval they never got from their family growing up but they don't tell their family they are a prostitute and instead make up stories of imagined jobs or rich boyfriends.

I certainly wouldn't call it a conscious choice of wanting riches and fun when you enter this world as a child or were shown you have little value as a child except as a piece of meat to men.

Enough! your ignorance of the thai bar scene overwhelms me. I frequent local "girlie" bars several nights a week because I enjoy talking with my female Thai friends, all of whom know my thai lady, and that I am firmly attached and don't play away. I don't "pay' for conversation with drinks or money, though I often buy a bottle of whisky for a birthday girl.

Bar girls do not consider themselves to be prostitutes. if you were to describe one as a so-pee-nee you would most likely get a well-deserved smack in the chops.

They are very happy when they get a date for the night (or an hour or so) because they are earning good money with little effort. They leave the bar with a big smile accompanied by a customer they are prepared to do business with. There is no coercion to accept a customer, other than financial.

It is very rare to find a "local". The girls work far from home so that when they return only those that they wish to know, know of their history.

Very few have any intention of marrying a thai man. To do so would be an act of financial suicide.

"........a piece of meat to men. " What are they to the lesbian and bisexual women who seek their services? something else?

None of the bar-owners that I know would accept an under-age girl because of the legal risk, and take pains to check.

Many of the girls express the desire to marry a farang, though most would prefer to live in thailand. Working in a bar increases the chances of this happening manifold.

Many of the girls have told me that bar work is liberating - they don't have a thai man giving orders, expecting slave -like attention, and taking their pay packet. The money that they earn is split one way and they use it for bikes, phones clothes, jewellery..................and quite often send money home.

It may seem strange to you, but some find at least some of their customers sexually attractive. "Freebies" are not uncommon for younger "law" men.

there are also "xmas beetles" - girls that show up for the high season and disappear in Feb. I know quite a few who show up at the same bar every year, and then go home to mum and the kids. Note the absence of husband.

How does that lot fit in with your googled statistics?

Yes, they like the western ettiqette and civility that comes with most sober western patrons. At the end of the night, when all that white prince chivalry is replaced by finding a suitable hole for the night, the girls are also happy to oblige as that is their real meal ticket. They only earn 100 to 200 baht per night from the bar after all. Your civil and friendly treatment of one specific girl is also accepted and reciprocated perhaps because she is hoping for a farang husband who will take her away from that scene and give her a better life. Some Thai husbands are more then happy to send their wives to resort areas to make more money in 4 months than they are able to earn in a year themselves. The whole thing is still based on money no matter how you slice it. Personal civility or even friendships are indeed possible but these girls also know how fleeting one of these "freindships" can be as well. The farang is there and sweet and generous and then gone as fast he he came. so she moves to the next possibility, or sugar daddy, as the case might be. Happy in that life? The Thai woman is generally a master at masking true feelings. They can have a big smile and laughing and be crying inside. Thai culture does not let these negative feelings show.

Nisa. You wind people up with your comments, Most girls have been abused as children--crap-.....most are from poor families--true. unbelieveable most of Thailand is poor. you get the most stupid and remarkable figures. and to note again--you said the posters are uninformed. this implies that most are not as informed as you. This is not a new comment from you. The end of your second paragragh was true--they leave to help to support their families (choices) not as you said "with no choice" And you believe as a child they are shown as a piece of meat for men. The biggest bu##sh#it i have heard in years. Please. It is a sad situation for some as some are told by freinds, that they can earn. big time. But its their CHOICE

[Nisa]

Nisa. You wind people up with your comments, Most girls have been abused as children--crap-.....most are from poor families--true. unbelieveable most of Thailand is poor. you get the most stupid and remarkable figures. and to note again--you said the posters are uninformed. this implies that most are not as informed as you. This is not a new comment from you. The end of your second paragragh was true--they leave to help to support their families (choices) not as you said "with no choice" And you believe as a child they are shown as a piece of meat for men. The biggest bu##sh#it i have heard in years. Please. It is a sad situation for some as some are told by freinds, that they can earn. big time. But its their CHOICE

While a UN report found that about half the working girls were underage combined with Thailand's own Health System research that found underage girls make up 40% of prostitutes in Thailand ... I guess for some reason it would be logical for you to believe the majority of Thai prostitutes were not abused as children.

Interesting that some posters here who want to deny such obvious facts as child sexual abuse being directly related to prostitution will go on other threads and talk about how common it is for Thai girls to be raped by people within their own Thai family.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Nisa

[pjclark1]

We now appear to have 2 people posting on this thread who have never been to Thailand.

"Abused as children", just rubbish, I have many female friends who have worked in the business and they never tell me that, now if you were to claim "Abused by Thai husbands/boyfriends" then that would appear to be true. Beatings by such are still accepted as normal behavior in a male/female relationship. There is child abuse but I can't connect it to working as a prostitute in later life.

By the way I am not a personal customer, I don't ever buy them drinks, but sometimes I buy fruit, Ice cream and food for the ladies.

They know I will never be their personal customer, but I have socialised with them, gone out to parties, dancing, etc. They are just normal people, mostly leading happy lives.

The underage sex is widespread, I have been offered such, but only when in the villages. Underage girls are not usually aimed at foreigners, it really is a home market. I know many Thai men who prefer 13/14/15/16 year olds as there preferred sexual partners, note that I haven't specified that partner to be male or female

Thai morality is not western womens morality.

Selling sex is very common, I would say almost every Thai lady would sell sex under the right circumstances.

Nobody in her family finding out being considered the right circumstance.

@Nisa

I am not denying statistics, although I haven't found them to be valid from my personal experience.

What I dislike is your blatant twisting of everything to make it the white foreigners fault.

What you appear to be trying to do is say that child abuse and child prostitution in Thailand is caused by white men.

The sex trade in Thailand has always been here and is aimed at Thais.

The underage sex trade in Thailand is almost exclusively a Thai problem.

Your obsession with fat/smelly/old white men is just strange.

@61guitarman61

What you see in the gogos you mentioned is a very tiny percentage of the sex trade in Thailand

Thais account for about 95% of the trade, other Asians 4% and whites probably less than 1%

Yet you also seem to want white men to have caused all the problems.

Edited February 18, 2011 by pjclark1

[61guitarman61]

Two points. One. The issue of choice is largely illusory. Think about it. Easy money, as you call it, already compromises choice as a somehow uncircumscribed act of volition. But there are lots of earlier environmental or social pressures which don't allow much in the way of a voluntary destiny. Bar-girls, prostitutes, etc, have been pre-selected. Two. The moment you grant 'these girls are making their own choices', you grant that your 'choice' is innocent.

It is so sad to read this forum, full of posts from people that have no clue about the reality or try to apply their own image about morality on everyone else.

Should I go around the large number of tenants in this building and tell them that they were pre-selected and was forced into the trade? They might be surprised, as they chose it themselves. Some do it part-time, some actually study at the same time, some do it full-time etc. All like the money and express how they would not want to work like the maid of the building, getting 6.5k/month for 6 days a week all year around.

One neighbor and her boyfriend is going to build a house. She worked in a shop but two weeks ago started working at a large massage place in the area - and managed to get 5 clients on her first day. She was very happy - and got little over 8k in 'salary' and tips...that is better than I and many of you make [if hired locally].

I'll try to make things clearer, and simpler. (I'm not talking about those "forced' into the trade. A wholly separate issue.) By 'pre-selected' I mean their options for a better life are so limited the attractions of prostitution are all too obvious. Pre-selected means that they have few or no options for the same sort of money that will buy them a house, a car, a life for their kids, other than to trade on their looks. To answer one of your points directly. The maid of the building who gets '6.5k/month for 6 days a week all year around' is not a role model; she is what a prostitute does NOT want to be. That too (negatively) circumscribes her choices. Try looking into why it is not attractive to be a maid. You might like to start out by asking yourself: would I like to be a maid? Then go to your remarkably chatty neighbor and ask her. Of course prostitutes like the money! Who wouldn't? Now try asking that maid of yours why she's never considered prostitution. You might learn a thing or two.

I'll put this another way. There is nothing wrong in prostitution. It is one of the few honest professions left. What is wrong is the conclusion that because it pays well, and because a prostitute says it pays better than servitude or shop assistance, it is embraced freely as a career-choice. Prostitutes rarely go home to their families and relatives to brag of their successes.

To bring this into western terms, SOMEONE has to work at McDonalds or there would be no McDonalds. SOMEONE has to clean the toilets in the office building you worked at. The idea that menial jobs are undesirable and do not pay well, therefore taking a job as a prostitute is the logical choice, is rediculous. In fact, the people who are doing those jobs, at home in the west or here in Thailand, are the ones I applaud because they hold a higher standard for themselves and will not sacrifice their own dignity and self worth by succoming to the temptation of making fast easy money at the cost of their own "souls", for lack of a better term. Otherwise the same argument could be made about any form of trying to get a better life at any cost: prostitution, drug running, and any number of questionable "professions". I know many wonderful Thais who work 12 hours a day for peanuts and hold their heads high, and rightly so. It is, in the end, a choice that each girl makes as to whether they can give away their own bodies for some money. They really do not have to if they do not want to. Many Thais are able to exist on salaries of only 6,000 or 8,000 baht per month.

[ginjag]

Nisa. You wind people up with your comments, Most girls have been abused as children--crap-.....most are from poor families--true. unbelieveable most of Thailand is poor. you get the most stupid and remarkable figures. and to note again--you said the posters are uninformed. this implies that most are not as informed as you. This is not a new comment from you. The end of your second paragragh was true--they leave to help to support their families (choices) not as you said "with no choice" And you believe as a child they are shown as a piece of meat for men. The biggest bu##sh#it i have heard in years. Please. It is a sad situation for some as some are told by freinds, that they can earn. big time. But its their CHOICE

While a UN report found that about half the working girls were underage combined with Thailand's own Health System research that found underage girls make up 40% of prostitutes in Thailand ... I guess for some reason it would be logical for you to believe the majority of Thai prostitutes were not abused as children.

Interesting that some posters here who want to deny such obvious facts as child sexual abuse being directly related to prostitution will go on other threads and talk about how common it is for Thai girls to be raped by people within their own Thai family.

You thrive and really believe all the statistics you conjour up are true. I would definatly say that MAJORITYof thai promiscuous-girls are NOT abused as children, but many are yes. Prostitution in Thailand as it IS illegal. (and I did read your Thai law snip) which is a bit vague. 40 percent underage-rubbish. YOUR stat facts NOT actual facts. Very few posters deny that children are abused/raped -it is a known fact that it happens often--Your stats and belief imply that most are abused--again get hold of yourself and give yourself a shake. please dont push on statistics to all posters, very few want them, most posters tell of personal observations. They enjoy this part of forum. We all can go to google, but wouln,t forum be Boring if we all did the same as you--BUT i agree that occasionally we can be guided by stats.

[Nisa]

Nisa. You wind people up with your comments, Most girls have been abused as children--crap-.....most are from poor families--true. unbelieveable most of Thailand is poor. you get the most stupid and remarkable figures. and to note again--you said the posters are uninformed. this implies that most are not as informed as you. This is not a new comment from you. The end of your second paragragh was true--they leave to help to support their families (choices) not as you said "with no choice" And you believe as a child they are shown as a piece of meat for men. The biggest bu##sh#it i have heard in years. Please. It is a sad situation for some as some are told by freinds, that they can earn. big time. But its their CHOICE

While a UN report found that about half the working girls were underage combined with Thailand's own Health System research that found underage girls make up 40% of prostitutes in Thailand ... I guess for some reason it would be logical for you to believe the majority of Thai prostitutes were not abused as children.

Interesting that some posters here who want to deny such obvious facts as child sexual abuse being directly related to prostitution will go on other threads and talk about how common it is for Thai girls to be raped by people within their own Thai family.

You thrive and really believe all the statistics you conjour up are true. I would definatly say that MAJORITYof thai promiscuous-girls are NOT abused as children, but many are yes. Prostitution in Thailand as it IS illegal. (and I did read your Thai law snip) which is a bit vague. 40 percent underage-rubbish. YOUR stat facts NOT actual facts. Very few posters deny that children are abused/raped -it is a known fact that it happens often--Your stats and belief imply that most are abused--again get hold of yourself and give yourself a shake. please dont push on statistics to all posters, very few want them, most posters tell of personal observations. They enjoy this part of forum. We all can go to google, but wouln,t forum be Boring if we all did the same as you--BUT i agree that occasionally we can be guided by stats.

LOL, yes let us ignore facts when debating if an issue is true or not ... well I guess it is okay "occasionally" assuming they don't go against your position.

[softgeorge]

THE IRISH BROTHEL

Three Irishmen are sitting in the pub window seat, watching the front door of the brothel over the road.

The local Methodist vicar appears, and quickly goes inside.

"Will you look at that?" says the first Irishman.

"And didn't I always say what a bunch of lying hypocrites they are?"

No sooner are the words out of his mouth than a Rabbi also goes inside.

"There's another bunch who try to fool everyone with their pious preaching and funny little hats," says the second Irishman.

They continue drinking their beer roundly condemning the vicar and the rabbi when they see their Catholic Priest knock on the door and go inside.

"Oh, how sad!" says the third Irishman.

"One of the girls must have died!"

[pjclark1]

The idea that menial jobs are undesirable and do not pay well, therefore taking a job as a prostitute is the logical choice, is rediculous. In fact, the people who are doing those jobs, at home in the west or here in Thailand, are the ones I applaud because they hold a higher standard for themselves and will not sacrifice their own dignity and self worth by succoming to the temptation of making fast easy money at the cost of their own "souls", for lack of a better term.

"Hold a higher standard"

Who says using your ***** to earn money is worse that using your hands to earn money or your brain to earn money?

Who gets to decide that people working selling sex have no dignity but someone working as a toilet cleaner has dignity?

You do!

OK that must be right then.

Edited February 18, 2011 by sbk
keep it clean

[ginjag]

Nisa. You wind people up with your comments, Most girls have been abused as children--crap-.....most are from poor families--true. unbelieveable most of Thailand is poor. you get the most stupid and remarkable figures. and to note again--you said the posters are uninformed. this implies that most are not as informed as you. This is not a new comment from you. The end of your second paragragh was true--they leave to help to support their families (choices) not as you said "with no choice" And you believe as a child they are shown as a piece of meat for men. The biggest bu##sh#it i have heard in years. Please. It is a sad situation for some as some are told by freinds, that they can earn. big time. But its their CHOICE

While a UN report found that about half the working girls were underage combined with Thailand's own Health System research that found underage girls make up 40% of prostitutes in Thailand ... I guess for some reason it would be logical for you to believe the majority of Thai prostitutes were not abused as children.

Interesting that some posters here who want to deny such obvious facts as child sexual abuse being directly related to prostitution will go on other threads and talk about how common it is for Thai girls to be raped by people within their own Thai family.

You thrive and really believe all the statistics you conjour up are true. I would definatly say that MAJORITYof thai promiscuous-girls are NOT abused as children, but many are yes. Prostitution in Thailand as it IS illegal. (and I did read your Thai law snip) which is a bit vague. 40 percent underage-rubbish. YOUR stat facts NOT actual facts. Very few posters deny that children are abused/raped -it is a known fact that it happens often--Your stats and belief imply that most are abused--again get hold of yourself and give yourself a shake. please dont push on statistics to all posters, very few want them, most posters tell of personal observations. They enjoy this part of forum. We all can go to google, but wouln,t forum be Boring if we all did the same as you--BUT i agree that occasionally we can be guided by stats.

LOL, yes let us ignore facts when debating if an issue is true or not ... well I guess it is okay "occasionally" assuming they don't go against your position.

Nisa -you are not very good at listening to true feelings, NO do not ignore facts, but not stats from google all the time, reality is my aim, my position is about the average punter/poster, I can feel and learn from my and other posters comments and learn. I have an open mind in life, and do not have the same stance as yours -thankfully, if you read the replies to your posts dont you get the feeling that you are not being agreed with ???? doesn't it make you wonder. so again to answer-I enjoy the differences of posters comments. yours are a contribution BUT-re read, and feel for the thread-and put the book down

[ginjag]

We now appear to have 2 people posting on this thread who have never been to Thailand.

"Abused as children", just rubbish, I have many female friends who have worked in the business and they never tell me that, now if you were to claim "Abused by Thai husbands/boyfriends" then that would appear to be true. Beatings by such are still accepted as normal behavior in a male/female relationship. There is child abuse but I can't connect it to working as a prostitute in later life.

By the way I am not a personal customer, I don't ever buy them drinks, but sometimes I buy fruit, Ice cream and food for the ladies.

They know I will never be their personal customer, but I have socialised with them, gone out to parties, dancing, etc. They are just normal people, mostly leading happy lives.

The underage sex is widespread, I have been offered such, but only when in the villages. Underage girls are not usually aimed at foreigners, it really is a home market. I know many Thai men who prefer 13/14/15/16 year olds as there preferred sexual partners, note that I haven't specified that partner to be male or female

Thai morality is not western womens morality.

Selling sex is very common, I would say almost every Thai lady would sell sex under the right circumstances.

Nobody in her family finding out being considered the right circumstance.

@Nisa

I am not denying statistics, although I haven't found them to be valid from my personal experience.

What I dislike is your blatant twisting of everything to make it the white foreigners fault.

What you appear to be trying to do is say that child abuse and child prostitution in Thailand is caused by white men.

The sex trade in Thailand has always been here and is aimed at Thais.

The underage sex trade in Thailand is almost exclusively a Thai problem.

Your obsession with fat/smelly/old white men is just strange.

@61guitarman61

What you see in the gogos you mentioned is a very tiny percentage of the sex trade in Thailand

Thais account for about 95% of the trade, other Asians 4% and whites probably less than 1%

Yet you also seem to want white men to have caused all the problems.

Spot on with your post, better than mine in trying to -GET through, @N-@61, all you have said is about the same as i.ve learnt and observed here. good stuff mate

[hasher69]

QUOTE

“”””Culture Ministry Inspector-General Preecha

Kanthiya said many karaoke bars used legal loopholes and redundancy between the

Culture Ministry's Film and Video Act 2008 and the Interior Ministry's Places

of Service Act 1966 regarding karaoke bar licences.

He explained that if application was made to the Culture Ministry, the bar

must not have prostitutes and alcoholic drinks - while those offering girls and

drinks must apply to the much-stricter Interior Ministry.””””

END_QUOTE

Does the above imply

that bars can have girls/ ladies if they apply to the

Quote “much-stricter Interior Ministry” ?????

And if so can these Girls/Ladies offer their services ??