Developing Hostage Crisis Story?

[WhiteShiva]

This incident is remarkably similar to one that happened in Northern Ireland in Thatcher's day. A couple of undercover soldiers (probably SAS) took a wrong turn in Belfast and their car got stuck in a funeral procession. The crowd quickly sussed out who they were and (even though they were armed) dragged them out of the car. Shortly afterwards, the provos turned up and shot them both in the head.

But after that incident we didn't have the prime minister and troops publicly swearing vengeance as we now do in Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In today's Nation: "Premier says any possible blame over investigation tactics should rest with him, but promises officials will abide by the law"

So I guess it is not business as usual, then......

[taxexile]

i dont agree that the prime minister is in any way responsible.

radical islam and the terrorism it spreads has one aim , to split the opposition and destabilise and eventually bring down the governments of the countries where it is active.

it is almost impossible to fight terrorism by "normal rules of engagement" , thats why it is so successful. the intimidation placed on the peace loving muslims to keep quiet is high , hence little or no co operation from villagers , many of whom probably support the cause , if not the methods used , of separation.

this is already a worldwide problem and the world should take heed of the increasing strength of the storm that will eventually split the world and involve us all , or all our children.

[WhiteShiva]

Pretend there insn't a problem in the Thai South. Then you hear the story of the how mothers of one village stopped police and other soldiers from helping their comrades while their village was torturing and killing these two.

Where were their husbands? Would you let your wife take your children out and form a block-aid against armed soldiers and police known for their brutality?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, I would only be too happy to stay behind to be tied up, staked in trucks and let to suffocate - especially knowing that military chiefs doing so would be severly punished by getting promotions.

In most normal countries, would this make the mothers (and husbands) accessory to murder?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In most "normal" countries, the authorities do not abuse minorities.

IMHO, I would arrest the mothers and put the children in protective custody. The mothers are no better than terrorist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What exactly have the mothers done wrong? - they staged a peaceful, non-violent protest. The killers of the marines should be brought to justice (not simply made to "disappear" which is pretty much standard procedure), but it should end there.

They destroyed all chances for peace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They (the mothers???) destroyed all chance for peace? What about all the people killed by the authorities over the last few years?

They just made all soldiers in Thailand unsympathetic to their cause.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry to have to break the news to you, but the soldiers have not exactly been sympathetic in the past - which is probably what caused this particular incident in the first place.

If they thought the violence was bad before, it will probably get worse now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, unfortunately, I have to agree with you on something.

Som nam na.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spoken like a true fanatic - no compassion, no perspective..... and of course no actual knowledge about the issue he gets so worked up about.

Personally, I think the villagers should have done what soldiers in the south always do when they apprehend someone dressed as civilians, armed with assault rifles and in the vicinity of a drive-by shooting, without any good reason as to why there are there - give them a stern warning, make them promise not to do it again and send them on their way.......

Edited September 23, 2005 by WhiteShiva

[WhiteShiva]

i dont agree that the prime minister is in any way responsible.

radical islam and the terrorism it spreads has one aim , to split the opposition and destabilise and eventually bring down the governments of the countries where it is active.

it is almost impossible to fight terrorism by "normal rules of engagement" , thats why it is so successful.  the intimidation placed on the peace loving muslims to keep quiet is high , hence little or no co operation from villagers , many of whom probably support the cause , if not the methods used , of separation.

this is already a worldwide problem and the world should take heed of the increasing strength of the storm that will eventually split the world and involve us all , or all our children.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Taxexile - you sound a bit like the German Nazi propaganda in the 30's and 40's about Bolsheviks and Jews - or perhaps like western propaganda in the 60s - communism, domino theory and the lot.

Radical Islam does not spread terrorism. Fanatics do. But they do not have the support, nor the means to split the world - unless the rest of the world allows them to do so by retaliating in ways that cause more problems than they solve.

The main cause of terrorism is injustice - real or percieved. And a real and lasting solution needs to address the root casues, rather than focusing exclusively on the symptoms.

[richard10365]

WhiteShiva, if you think kidnapping, torture, and murder is the definition of a peaceful demonstration than you really have a few bolts loose between your ears.

I will be very happy to see the mothers arrested for their involvement in the kidnapping, torture, and murder of these marines.

2 marines died because of their actions. There was nothing peaceful about it.

[seonai]

What utter &lt;deleted&gt; Richard10365 and the &lt;deleted&gt; who said "squaters".

The Thai Gov has for a very long time, ignored, persecuted and put down many of the people in the south - the four provinces were given to Thailand by Britain remember, a parting gift when leaving Malasia. Some sort of sick joke no doubt, like Pakistan eh?????

The majority of the people in the south only want recognition, just like Muslims get in Britain today, and fair treatment. OF COURSE you are going to get young groups who might listen to more radical elders or even outside influences..... but that is something the Gov should be dealing with right now.

Anyone know what happened the last 2 times anyone dared to stand up and shout against total Thai rules? 1976 and 1992?

Well done White Shiva for speaking sense.

[The_Moog]

Killing innocent civilians is terrorism, .......but killing armed soldiers is arguably definable as something else.

Having said that. I would say that according to the Law anyone who blocked the roads to the village could be arrested as either an Accomplice, Accessory to a crime, or Co-conspirator.

[taxexile]

The main cause of terrorism is injustice - real or percieved. And a real and lasting solution needs to address the root casues, rather than focusing exclusively on the symptoms.

so if you were thaksin , how exactly would you deal with it ,

and what would be your solution to suicide bombers ,bali bombers , kidnappers and beheaders , the iraqi mess , 7/11 etc .

and how would you stop radical islamic terrorism from acting on perceived injustice as opposed to actual injustice , because they seem to percieve it anywhere they feel like percieving it.

history has shown that you cant make an omelette without breaking a few eggs , and so hard as it sounds , and as unfortunate as it would be for many innocents , i believe it would be better to go in hard sooner , and by fair means or foul , smoke out the people behind all this trouble and lock them away and throw away the keys.

the sooner its done then the sooner can the rest of the people down there get on with their normal lives.

of course re aligning the borders would probably be an easier way of doing it , but malaysia doesnt want them and thaksin would never allow it.

the british and other colonialist are guilty of ignoring tribal and religious divides when drawing up borders in many other places too. but that was then , and this is now.

and if you cant move the border , then you have to send in the troops to put this uprising down , with all that that entails. if its not done sooner , it will have to be done later , and with even more bloodshed.

those are the harsh realities. its happened throughout history , and until politicians get smarter , and religions stop taking themselves so seriously it will continue to happen , and as always , it will be the innocent who suffer.

you cant waste your time wishing for some fair and just solution to all this , it will never happen.

[Plus+]

I think it's pretty obvious that Taksin stands no chance of bringing peace to the South.

He should let someone with some sort of credibility to take over, if there is anyone left.

The soldiers were victims of mob justice. Appealing to the law is meaningless here - there's no law down South. There's nobody to appeal to for justice.

We don't know what actually happened there. The government tells us that the marines were in pursuit of killers, and, acc to Bangkok Post, were ambushed, the whole abduction was carefully planned and prepared - sand was put in their gas tanks and tires were punctured so they couldn't escape.

Villagers might see it completely differently - they were caught in the act of killing. The same thing happend last week when 131 muslims fled to Malaysia - they heard the dying man saying that it was the police who killed him.

Who would you believe?

A few months ago a deputy governor was shot by his own security detail from a few meters away and they coulnd't find who did it. Can you believe that?

Muslims down South don't believe a word what Thais say, and they have good reasons for doing so, and they will never accept "Thai" justice.

[Ned]

Real hatred down there. Has been for several hundred years amongst some of the Malays of Pattani ever since the kings of Ayutthaya launched raid after raid by sea and land to subjugate their people. Now it's revenge gone crazy and murder being carried out by both sides. Who says the marines who were executed hadn't opened fire on the tea shop? If so, how many Malays had this pair previously murdered? You ought to know how the Thai authorities deal with dissent. They smash skulls with rifle butts and jump on their heads. That's all they know. A brutal murderous element is running the show on both sides in the conflict.

[seonai]

I agree guys, taxexile made some sort of relevant comments after White Shiva's last post but this has been going on for years and from what I understand - little really - about the Koran, Muslims will not normally strike unless threatened first. It's the Islamic law. Sure I understand that fundamentalists are possible fueling this recent stream of attacks but I would like the general public to know that it's not just Muslims. I am a peaceful peson and would never advocate violence in any situation. But I do understand how these people feel and I am worried for their future. Just look at Northern Ireland. Will it ever stop? I don't think any of this discussion is about our personal feelings, it's about a big problem that is very hard to solve.

Taxexile - you asked what we wold do if we were Thaksin. The only thing I can say, because I am not a politician, is that I would send someone able to talk with Muslim clerics, very able. But, as has been shown in Thai history, Thailand rarely deals with with these type of issues lightly. Dictatorship comes to mind again. They will probably go down there and shoot a lot of Muslims. And then...... beware Thailand. That's not coming from me as a person, just from knowledge of Islam albeit minimal.

I am as sad as the rest of you about this mess. But it ain't going away.

Seonai

[papaya9]

My anger isn't directed at Muslims, but the actions of PEOPLE who committed this heinous crime. Those poor fellows. RIP.

[The_Moog]

Some offer of limited regional autonomy using the local implementation of Islamic Law, but remaining within Thai Sovereignty, might be enough to allow both sides to settle.

[taxexile]

Some offer of limited regional autonomy using the local implementation of Islamic Law, but remaining within Thai Sovereignty, might be enough to allow both sides to settle

in a rational world , and when dealing with rational people that would seem like a perfect solution.

but i believe that the ringleaders , insurgents , terrorists , extremists , call them what you will , and the foriegn elements that are driving it , will never accept it even if the majority of the true southerners want it.

the minority of troublemakers only want trouble , and will carry on making trouble until complete destabilisation is achieved. its what they want. they are anarchists and nihilists , destruction is there aim. it only takes half a dozen people with a bomb or three to get the attention of the whole world.

the troublemakers will never go away , and the radical religious 'leaders" who are firmly entrenched in their positions will continue to preach and encourage and brainwash.

even if they are given what they want does anyone think it will stop..... then they will want power in the new local assemblies or governments , and they wont try to get it through the ballot box , they will try to get it through intimidation and violence.

there is unfortunately only one way to solve this .

[seonai]

point taken taxexile, papaya9 I leave to one side cos you don't understand both sides of the story. The 'terrorism' side doesn't really come into it. They are not bombing Patong or Pat Pong... they are fighting on their own patch.

Iknow what taxexile is saying, I don't agree though because I think that way of 'solving' the situation will only antagonise things. I think a mass killing would just make Thailand's reputation go down the proverbial drain. Maybe a good thing. Tourists are already dubious about coming here.

My business has suffered, so have many businesses, but who cares if it is going to mean mass loss of life..... forget feeling sorry for one's self.

If Thailand is going to take it's 'normal' route here... my respect goes out the window. And before anyone says anything, I love this country and my son's heritage more than words can say. But I am sorely dissapointed at the way the southern conflicts are - probably - going to be tackled. I also feel that at this time in the world, the last thing we need here is a fundamentalist Muslim movement. As I said before, beware - these people will NOT back down.

[taxexile]

The 'terrorism' side doesn't really come into it. They are not bombing Patong or Pat Pong... they are fighting on their own patch.

i believe it is only a matter of time.

I also feel that at this time in the world, the last thing we need here is a fundamentalist Muslim movement. As I said before, beware - these people will NOT back down.

exactly , you already have a fundamentalist movement there , if they wont back down then you have to accept their wishes or fight them.

[seonai]

Taxexile, in most ways I agree with you, but if this happens.... big problems here and it coincides with the Gov questions about the Monarchy having the power to 'control' uprisings

[Nam Kao]

The only solution

http://frissell.com/grabble1.jpg

[Nam Kao]

I only wish i can see the apologetic liberals faces when they are sawing there heads off

Edited September 23, 2005 by Nam Kao

[seonai]

Nam Kao, Ihope for your sake you are kidding.... who are you thinking of bombing? I'll give you three minutes to save yourself...

[seonai]

So smart ass what do you suggest as a solution?????

[khall64au]

The only solution

http://frissell.com/grabble1.jpg

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

THAT Namkhao is why women should be running the planet....

[seonai]

So Nam Kao,

What is your general idea since this is a bit of a late reply to this topic? Who are the 'liberals' and who is chopping who's head off???????

[Nam Kao]

Go give them a group hug and get back to me

Whacky libs

Edited September 23, 2005 by Nam Kao

[seonai]

Thanks Khall for saying what ought to have been said a long time ago. Nam Kao get a grip or stop posting on serious topics.

[seonai]

Nam Kao are you a wind up or what... nice try... go play with people on your level

[seonai]

Nam Kao is obviously ought of his depth here, ce la vie

[seonai]

sorry out of his depth...... late at night for discusssions

[tripperj]

The only solution

http://frissell.com/grabble1.jpg

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure leave south Thailand a radioactive waste land and kill hundered of thousand's inocent people aswell as any "terorist", that's a reall good way to solve the problem!!!!!

[opothai]

Nam Koa

a bit harsh maybe, but i think it will take drastic action ,or do we sit back and let the radicals get their way and keep bombing. mutilating and kidnapping people, personally i believe that there should be a shoot to kill policy against terrorists as terrorists keep on insisting they are at war surely they can not complain. and as for people harbouring and protecting the said terrorists, well they are as guilty as the offender.