Rubber Trees

[Hunter s somtam]

Hi all

What kind of fertiliser are u guys putting on ,this is the time before the rain starts proper ,I'm told , especially u guys up in the north east .last year we made a mix of two different kinds ,can't remember what they were.And I spouse there's different ferts for different age trees and areas.hope you get some rain .we need some more .

[Hunter s somtam]

Don't recommend any spraying of any weeds, anywhere. Quicker, cheaper - yes. Better - no. Grass cutting, either manually (petrol strimmers) or with machinery (tractors) is always ;

a) more expensive

more time consuming

c) far better for the health of the land and whatever is on it.

Call me an old hippy but...

You did say before to drive the tractor with grass cutter up the long runs and use brush cutter between the trees,so you say I can't drive between the trees cross ways like I do with the rotator ? If I had an iron buffalo I would get that cutter off you ,sounds a lot cheaper .i really need something after hearing from you guys ,it's seems I've been giving my trees a bit of a flogging .

Hst.

[cobbler]

Don't recommend any spraying of any weeds, anywhere. Quicker, cheaper - yes. Better - no. Grass cutting, either manually (petrol strimmers) or with machinery (tractors) is always ;

a) more expensive

more time consuming

c) far better for the health of the land and whatever is on it.

Call me an old hippy but...

You did say before to drive the tractor with grass cutter up the long runs and use brush cutter between the trees,so you say I can't drive between the trees cross ways like I do with the rotator ? If I had an iron buffalo I would get that cutter off you ,sounds a lot cheaper .i really need something after hearing from you guys ,it's seems I've been giving my trees a bit of a flogging .

Hst.

As you probably already know.Rubber tree roots are surface roots.So be carefull driving a tractor around.As it can damage the roots of the tree.

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[thoongfoned]

hi hunter, sorry pm aint working for me today........ the grass cutter would be 18,000 ono. should go in the back of a pick up. width 130cm needed. im 60km east of udon thani. if interested try and pm me for chat........

[thaiguzzi]

Hi all

What kind of fertiliser are u guys putting on ,this is the time before the rain starts proper ,I'm told , especially u guys up in the north east .last year we made a mix of two different kinds ,can't remember what they were.And I spouse there's different ferts for different age trees and areas.hope you get some rain .we need some more .

IT'S ALL IN MY PREVIOUS POSTS !!

but here it is again;

2-6 years, no tapping, 20-10-12

7 years on and tapping 29-5-18.

Or very similar no's.

Forget about fertilizing until you have had a good rain and the land is soaked.

Dig it in, do not throw. 2 women with buckets, 2 blokes with hoes, (not prostitutes!) should comfortably do 20 + rai per day. Simples.

[thaiguzzi]

Don't recommend any spraying of any weeds, anywhere. Quicker, cheaper - yes. Better - no. Grass cutting, either manually (petrol strimmers) or with machinery (tractors) is always ;

a) more expensive

more time consuming

c) far better for the health of the land and whatever is on it.

Call me an old hippy but...

You did say before to drive the tractor with grass cutter up the long runs and use brush cutter between the trees,so you say I can't drive between the trees cross ways like I do with the rotator ? If I had an iron buffalo I would get that cutter off you ,sounds a lot cheaper .i really need something after hearing from you guys ,it's seems I've been giving my trees a bit of a flogging .

Hst.

As you probably already know.Rubber tree roots are surface roots.So be carefull driving a tractor around.As it can damage the roots of the tree.

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+1.

A 3 ton Ford or 2 ton large Kubota does not want to go in between the 3m. However, something much lighter (like my KRT 140 Kubota) is not nearly so bad. Whatever is used will damage to some extent the root system, but then, as i do most work myself, i'm not about to walk 64 rai and cut manually with a brush cutter. Every 2-3 months.

That iron buffalo grass cutter is HARD, repeat HARD work!

[Mosha]

Well either the monsoon has started down here or Zeus is out to get me. Yesterday 4 lightning strikes in 1 minute, and I never got the count going before the loud bang. Rained 5 days out of 7. Sold today at 25 baht, this time round the corner. Our usual spot was 2 baht less.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Mosha

[cobbler]

Well either the monsoon has started down here or Zeus is out to get me. Yesterday 4 lightning strikes in 1 minute, and I never got the count going before the loud bang. Rained 5 days out of 7. Sold today at 25 baht, this time round the corner. Our usual spot was 2 baht less.

Hi Mr Mosha.How much are sheets per kilo down your area?

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[cobbler]

Don't recommend any spraying of any weeds, anywhere. Quicker, cheaper - yes. Better - no. Grass cutting, either manually (petrol strimmers) or with machinery (tractors) is always ;

a) more expensive

more time consuming

c) far better for the health of the land and whatever is on it.

Call me an old hippy but...

You did say before to drive the tractor with grass cutter up the long runs and use brush cutter between the trees,so you say I can't drive between the trees cross ways like I do with the rotator ? If I had an iron buffalo I would get that cutter off you ,sounds a lot cheaper .i really need something after hearing from you guys ,it's seems I've been giving my trees a bit of a flogging .

Hst.

As you probably already know.Rubber tree roots are surface roots.So be carefull driving a tractor around.As it can damage the roots of the tree.

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+1.

A 3 ton Ford or 2 ton large Kubota does not want to go in between the 3m. However, something much lighter (like my KRT 140 Kubota) is not nearly so bad. Whatever is used will damage to some extent the root system, but then, as i do most work myself, i'm not about to walk 64 rai and cut manually with a brush cutter. Every 2-3 months.

That iron buffalo grass cutter is HARD, repeat HARD work!

Hi Mr Motorguzzi.Yes you wouldnt want to be swinging a wipper snipper for 60+ rai .It would take for ever.I supose obviously the workers not intersted in doing it????

Down here if the farmer owns 10 rai or 1000 rai its always the same.

Everybody down here works a system like this.Owner provides the wippersnipper and blade.The worker maintains it puts fuel in it and cuts the grass..

Now with price of yang its even more crucial to save money.Running and paying for a tractor and cutter is a major expence .

Cant help but think that these people are taking advantage of you because you are

falang.Cant imagine a thai taking that shit from the worker.

On the other hand maybe its how its done up there.Obviously you have looked around to check out what everybody else is doing.

Maybe this some help to you , or not I dont know

Cheers Cobbler

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[thaiguzzi]

Whoever taps an area of the plantation, it is their job to fertilise (i pay the fertiliser), and cut the grass (i pay the benzin). However, because,

a) i like driving my tractors

i've got a good heart

c) none of my workers are mechanically "sympathetic"

i do the tractor driving and all maintanence on mechanical items.

[thaiguzzi]

Another 'kin smiley i did'nt put there.

[imokg2g]

A question for the forum. On the topic of owner expense obligation, what arrangement do you have with your workers regarding the purchase of chemicals?

Sold kee yang @ local auction 23 April, 30.20 Baht

[cobbler]

A question for the forum. On the topic of owner expense obligation, what arrangement do you have with your workers regarding the purchase of chemicals?

Sold kee yang @ local auction 23 April, 30.20 Baht

Hi.In this area its the owner who pays for the acid.Pui fertiliza is shared 60% owner 40% worker.

Cheers Cobbler

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[thaiguzzi]

Wot chems?

[imokg2g]

A question for the forum. On the topic of owner expense obligation, what arrangement do you have with your workers regarding the purchase of chemicals?

Sold kee yang @ local auction 23 April, 30.20 Baht

Hi.In this area its the owner who pays for the acid.Pui fertiliza is shared 60% owner 40% worker.

Cheers Cobbler

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Thank you for your reply, Cobbler. That is reassuring, as this is the same arrangement I have in place with my workers. We are in the far North-East.

We haven't had much rain to date. However, based on the extended weather forecast it won't be until the middle of next month that we will receive significant rainfall. Can anybody advise on the adverse effects of waiting to fertilize late next month, as opposed to fertilizing this week? We recommenced tapping earlier this month.

Thanks in advance.

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[imokg2g]

Wot chems?

My mistake, I should have been more specific. I was referring to the acid that is poured into the collection cups that coagulates the rubber from a liquid to a solid. I believe its formic acid?

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[thaiguzzi]

# would not fertilise till the ground has had a damn good soaking. Regardless of when.

# back in the days when prices were high, 4 years ago, you could still get workers on a 65/35 % split, and even 70/30 %, but for that, they did nothing except tap and collect. And you had a big choice, as everyone wanted to tap. For maintenance of their area of a plantation, you had to pay outside help for grass cutting etc on a daily rate.

# now, prices are sh#itty, you won't get anyone for less than 60/40 % split, which is the norm anyway round here, but in all of the NE that i know of, inc Thai run plantations, none of the workers are expected to pay for anything, especially 40 % of fertiliser, formic costs. The only thing they purchase are the knives (2 per tapper min.) and their head mount LED torches/lights. But as said before, for their 40%, they do everything in that area workwise, fertilising and upkeep.Their cut is bad enough as it is @ 60 odd baht per sheet / 30 baht for cup. If i said you're paying 40 % of costs, they'd all down tools and walk off.

[Mosha]

As Mike says on the costs etc. Also any spare food we give them. Sopha thinks she has to feed the 5000 lol. On top of that we babt sit the baby when there is one.

[imokg2g]

# would not fertilise till the ground has had a damn good soaking. Regardless of when.

# back in the days when prices were high, 4 years ago, you could still get workers on a 65/35 % split, and even 70/30 %, but for that, they did nothing except tap and collect. And you had a big choice, as everyone wanted to tap. For maintenance of their area of a plantation, you had to pay outside help for grass cutting etc on a daily rate.

# now, prices are sh#itty, you won't get anyone for less than 60/40 % split, which is the norm anyway round here, but in all of the NE that i know of, inc Thai run plantations, none of the workers are expected to pay for anything, especially 40 % of fertiliser, formic costs. The only thing they purchase are the knives (2 per tapper min.) and their head mount LED torches/lights. But as said before, for their 40%, they do everything in that area workwise, fertilising and upkeep.Their cut is bad enough as it is @ 60 odd baht per sheet / 30 baht for cup. If i said you're paying 40 % of costs, they'd all down tools and walk off.

Thank you for your reply, Thaiguzzi. We have adopted the 60 / 40 split, where I pay the cost of chemicals but it seems as though we will be splitting the cost of fertiliser 60 / 40 as well. Those tapping my trees are my Cousin-in-Law and his wife, a young family who seem honest (we haven't been asked to babysit just yet) they also have a modest 10 rai nearby that was given to them several years back. Last year I recall we also split the cost of fertiliser 60/40 - we fertilised twice last year. Rough costs from memory were 500 baht per bag, with 1 bag enough for 2 rai. It looks as though we'll be purchasing fertiliser this week, but I'll ask that they hold out on laying the stuff until we get a significant down pour of rain.

[cobbler]

# would not fertilise till the ground has had a damn good soaking. Regardless of when.

# back in the days when prices were high, 4 years ago, you could still get workers on a 65/35 % split, and even 70/30 %, but for that, they did nothing except tap and collect. And you had a big choice, as everyone wanted to tap. For maintenance of their area of a plantation, you had to pay outside help for grass cutting etc on a daily rate.

# now, prices are sh#itty, you won't get anyone for less than 60/40 % split, which is the norm anyway round here, but in all of the NE that i know of, inc Thai run plantations, none of the workers are expected to pay for anything, especially 40 % of fertiliser, formic costs. The only thing they purchase are the knives (2 per tapper min.) and their head mount LED torches/lights. But as said before, for their 40%, they do everything in that area workwise, fertilising and upkeep.Their cut is bad enough as it is @ 60 odd baht per sheet / 30 baht for cup. If i said you're paying 40 % of costs, they'd all down tools and walk off.

Thank you for your reply, Thaiguzzi. We have adopted the 60 / 40 split, where I pay the cost of chemicals but it seems as though we will be splitting the cost of fertiliser 60 / 40 as well. Those tapping my trees are my Cousin-in-Law and his wife, a young family who seem honest (we haven't been asked to babysit just yet) they also have a modest 10 rai nearby that was given to them several years back. Last year I recall we also split the cost of fertiliser 60/40 - we fertilised twice last year. Rough costs from memory were 500 baht per bag, with 1 bag enough for 2 rai. It looks as though we'll be purchasing fertiliser this week, but I'll ask that they hold out on laying the stuff until we get a significant down pour of rain.

Imokg2g.Ha at last a falang getting a fair deal.555 Good luck to you.I hope they r cutting your grass for you as well.Then you will know they are not taking advantage of you at all..Im happy for you.

Depending on how soft your pui is if you put it down the day after a good rain it will disolve anyway if its soft.soak into the ground and save your workers digging holes or having it wash away in the next rain.

Cheers Cobbler

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[cobbler]

# would not fertilise till the ground has had a damn good soaking. Regardless of when.

# back in the days when prices were high, 4 years ago, you could still get workers on a 65/35 % split, and even 70/30 %, but for that, they did nothing except tap and collect. And you had a big choice, as everyone wanted to tap. For maintenance of their area of a plantation, you had to pay outside help for grass cutting etc on a daily rate.

# now, prices are sh#itty, you won't get anyone for less than 60/40 % split, which is the norm anyway round here, but in all of the NE that i know of, inc Thai run plantations, none of the workers are expected to pay for anything, especially 40 % of fertiliser, formic costs. The only thing they purchase are the knives (2 per tapper min.) and their head mount LED torches/lights. But as said before, for their 40%, they do everything in that area workwise, fertilising and upkeep.Their cut is bad enough as it is @ 60 odd baht per sheet / 30 baht for cup. If i said you're paying 40 % of costs, they'd all down tools and walk off.

Thank you for your reply, Thaiguzzi. We have adopted the 60 / 40 split, where I pay the cost of chemicals but it seems as though we will be splitting the cost of fertiliser 60 / 40 as well. Those tapping my trees are my Cousin-in-Law and his wife, a young family who seem honest (we haven't been asked to babysit just yet) they also have a modest 10 rai nearby that was given to them several years back. Last year I recall we also split the cost of fertiliser 60/40 - we fertilised twice last year. Rough costs from memory were 500 baht per bag, with 1 bag enough for 2 rai. It looks as though we'll be purchasing fertiliser this week, but I'll ask that they hold out on laying the stuff until we get a significant down pour of rain.

Haha Finaly a falang not getting scammed.Hip hip horray

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[thaiguzzi]

# Cobbler - NO ONE has ever taken advantage of me, EVER, ANYWHERE. Nor has anyone ever "scammed" me, ever. Except once and only once my ex lodger back in the UK who stole a few grand in back rent and did a number with some credit cards after he became a junkie and <deleted>#cked up. 6 years ago, It is not forgotten, and never will be. Me, and my "brothers" back home have looked for him ever since. If he is'nt dead, and one day does re-surface, i will have my pound of flesh. And more.

# Back on topic.

# If you are not digging in fertiliser, and you get heavy rainfall, it is the same as pouring money down the toilet. Hence take the extra time, dig not throw.

# A bag of PROPER fertiliser does not cost 500 baht. It's animal sh#it mixed with maybe a bit of nitrogen/potassium, but i doubt it. Good for the soiI, but does not do a lot for a trees growth or production. just bought the seasons first session of fertilizer (over 40k), prices are down from last year, 950 baht per 50kg bag of brand name 29-5-18. Last year 1020 baht.

# If anybody is genuinely interested on a great method of fertilising, i will post it up. It can only be done on trees that have full canopy enclosing the 7m spread and is time consuming, ie twice as long as digging holes, and can only be done at the beginning of the season, not end (dig holes then) when the ground surface is FULL of old leaf.

Mike.

[thaiguzzi]

I bet they won't be so happy paying 40% of a grand a proper bag, rather than 500 baht per bag of a chicken sh#it mix. And tapped trees want more than 1 bag per 2 rai. Ideally 1 bag per rai, but even i can't afford that with current prices. I do about 8 on 10. Have been since the trees were 7 years old.

[cobbler]

I bet they won't be so happy paying 40% of a grand a proper bag, rather than 500 baht per bag of a chicken sh#it mix. And tapped trees want more than 1 bag per 2 rai. Ideally 1 bag per rai, but even i can't afford that with current prices. I do about 8 on 10. Have been since the trees were 7 years old.

Seems like different areas maybe have different arrangements shall we say, in regards to how things are shared and done.As long as you are happy with your arrangement thats all that matters.

Came accross a very good pui 2 years ago.Smells rich in goodies.Has increased our output too.Every little bit helps.my wifes aunty who has over 1000 rai of yang put us onto it.disolves quickly.She has been at this yang game longer than ive been alive so knows what she is doing.320 bhart per bag.Maybe its dearer in other areas due to freight.Dont know the name of it.Brown in color and smells teriffic just like blood and bone and shit 555.

Seen people put 1000 bart bags on vevies but not on yang as its too expensive as mr motorguzzi said.We use the 1000 bart bags on vegies gotta watch it though as only minimal amount is needed.I burnt off 1 lot of tooa fuk yaow long beens.ooops.

On flat land farm We put 1 bag per rai on at beginning of season then half bag per rai on in middle of season.just thrown around evenly ,just after rain .On the mountain farm it gets dug in 1 time per year at beginning of season .1 bag per rai.Difficult job thats why its only done 1 time per year on the mountain.

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[cobbler]

Imokg2g with regards to pui and other expences I think its a matter of getting a balance of cost per bag of pui.As Mr Motorguzzi said .No point in over capitalising on 1000 bart bag of pui when u only get 30 bart per kilo of kee yang.We sell sheets here as the workers prefer it also good for us too with storage.But its still relivant.

Can get chook shit for 30 bart per bag but never thought to use it.Im not smart enough to know all the details of it as far as richness.For sure its good for the soil though.

Just have to bag it yourself.Probably worth it though as a days wages is 300 bart and the worker could fill a lot of bags in a day.Its just shit.555

Cheers Cobbler

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Edited April 28, 2014 by cobbler

[cobbler]

Imokg2g with regards to pui and other expences I think its a matter of getting a balance of cost per bag of pui.As Mr Motorguzzi said .No point in over capitalising on 1000 bart bag of pui when u only get 30 bart per kilo of kee yang.We sell sheets here as the workers prefer it also good for us too with storage.But its still relivant.

Can get chook shit for 30 bart per bag but never thought to use it.Im not smart enough to know all the details of it as far as richness.For sure its good for the soil though.

Just have to bag it yourself.Probably worth it though as a days wages is 300 bart and the worker could fill a lot of bags in a day.Its just shit.555

Cheers Cobbler

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Actually my wife just told me how to make the mix.Very interesting.Could save a shitload of money here.Back the ute up to the chookshit.Fill it up in about 15 minutes.

Drive home.Unload.Go get a load of mulch take it home.Mix it.Put it back in the ute.Drive around the yang and let the worker spread it round using a bucket.Wouldnt take more than 2 days and 600 bart of chookshit some mulch As for the worker,well hes already our worker and hes also saving a shitload of money so he will be happy to do it for free.Its a win win situation.Thanks for the great idea.

Cheers Cobbler

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[thoongfoned]

we have been putting pig poo on the rubber land now for the past three years. plus we use the 1000 baht vits. without a doubt the vits are far better for the trees, growth wise and product wise. when we do the pig poo its mainly (from my point of view) to help the land (not great soil really) we try and put around a 1000 bags of poo a year along the rows. 30 rai plus. we sell the poo also for 40 baht a bag. have to turn people away now, not enough to go round, so the wife sells for other farms in our area too. we average 6 -8 bags dried a day from our farm. if I had to buy the poo I would not bother, just use the shop bought stuff at the 1000 baht a bag. have seen the price go to around 1250 abag afew years ago.

before we planted the trees we had a looked at rubber in the south and in different countries, Indonesia and Malaysia mainly to get pointers and talk to people. clone type advise, planting ect.......... I was always lead to believe in the 60/40 split too. but in the area around udon people do as thaiguzz has said, ie pay petrol and vits cost on top. I think its hard to get thai people to work and second its a hard life being a rubber cutter. not a lot of money even when the price is better.

having said all that, from day one (land prep for planting) you have to keep the costs down, its an expensive decision to do rubber and along wait till you can draw anything half decent back from the trees.

all you guys planting this year don't expect to being rich doing this game, plant too much and its hard to get the workers, plant not enough and you aint gonna make the retirement money either, its nice having the trees but its just another expense for the first 7.5 years...........

[cobbler]

we have been putting pig poo on the rubber land now for the past three years. plus we use the 1000 baht vits. without a doubt the vits are far better for the trees, growth wise and product wise. when we do the pig poo its mainly (from my point of view) to help the land (not great soil really) we try and put around a 1000 bags of poo a year along the rows. 30 rai plus. we sell the poo also for 40 baht a bag. have to turn people away now, not enough to go round, so the wife sells for other farms in our area too. we average 6 -8 bags dried a day from our farm. if I had to buy the poo I would not bother, just use the shop bought stuff at the 1000 baht a bag. have seen the price go to around 1250 abag afew years ago.

before we planted the trees we had a looked at rubber in the south and in different countries, Indonesia and Malaysia mainly to get pointers and talk to people. clone type advise, planting ect.......... I was always lead to believe in the 60/40 split too. but in the area around udon people do as thaiguzz has said, ie pay petrol and vits cost on top. I think its hard to get thai people to work and second its a hard life being a rubber cutter. not a lot of money even when the price is better.

having said all that, from day one (land prep for planting) you have to keep the costs down, its an expensive decision to do rubber and along wait till you can draw anything half decent back from the trees.

all you guys planting this year don't expect to being rich doing this game, plant too much and its hard to get the workers, plant not enough and you aint gonna make the retirement money either, its nice having the trees but its just another expense for the first 7.5 years...........

Do you think sugar cane would be more suited to issan area.?Because you have annual return for a start.We have friends in sukhothai and they do well from sugarcane.If we were there we would deffinately go sugar cane.

When I hear all the problems you have with workers there.I feel sorry for you

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Edited April 30, 2014 by cobbler

[imokg2g]

Some very interesting points raised regarding the use of various fertiliser types. As you stated Thaiguzzi it would seem the 500baht bags are nothing more than pig/chicken waste with some added nutrients. I'm considering an experiment in which half the trees are fertilised with the 'cheap' 500 baht variety, and the other half with the 'premium' 1000 baht bags and monitoring any noticeable difference in rubber yield. Either way, I will ensure the workers apply the fertiliser more generously to the land. Feedback would suggest that 50kg for 2 rai is a little 'light on'.

@Cobbler - that is a mighty large yang tree you're hugging. Any idea on the age of that tree? I don't imagine it produces much these days?

Thanks to all members for their valuable contributions.

Imokg2g

[thoongfoned]

we have been putting pig poo on the rubber land now for the past three years. plus we use the 1000 baht vits. without a doubt the vits are far better for the trees, growth wise and product wise. when we do the pig poo its mainly (from my point of view) to help the land (not great soil really) we try and put around a 1000 bags of poo a year along the rows. 30 rai plus. we sell the poo also for 40 baht a bag. have to turn people away now, not enough to go round, so the wife sells for other farms in our area too. we average 6 -8 bags dried a day from our farm. if I had to buy the poo I would not bother, just use the shop bought stuff at the 1000 baht a bag. have seen the price go to around 1250 abag afew years ago.

before we planted the trees we had a looked at rubber in the south and in different countries, Indonesia and Malaysia mainly to get pointers and talk to people. clone type advise, planting ect.......... I was always lead to believe in the 60/40 split too. but in the area around udon people do as thaiguzz has said, ie pay petrol and vits cost on top. I think its hard to get thai people to work and second its a hard life being a rubber cutter. not a lot of money even when the price is better.

having said all that, from day one (land prep for planting) you have to keep the costs down, its an expensive decision to do rubber and along wait till you can draw anything half decent back from the trees.

all you guys planting this year don't expect to being rich doing this game, plant too much and its hard to get the workers, plant not enough and you aint gonna make the retirement money either, its nice having the trees but its just another expense for the first 7.5 years...........

Do you think sugar cane would be more suited to issan area.?Because you have annual return for a start.We have friends in sukhothai and they do well from sugarcane.If we were there we would deffinately go sugar cane.

When I hear all the problems you have with workers there.I feel sorry for you

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we rent some land out to family who cane farm. if you look after and spend the money you get an ok return. ie vits, watering and weeding. most people put it in the ground and hope for the best as far I can see, this way I think you are lucky to break even. from what people say you need a return of ten tons a rai to earn a little. this area is short on the rain fall between end October till april. plant November/december time and it don't rain till end april, need to flood the land if you can between these times.

end of the year gonna try and clear some scrub land a plant some sugar, only small to see what we can do. if we have the spare cash at the time that is, wanted to do this year but something always comes up! over the last couple of years we tend to rent land out for rice, its better then doing it ourself.

if you have the money and the land most crops are an option, its just if you make a return after all the costs involved. still I suppose this is farming anywhere in the world.