james24 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 (edited) Guilt Culture vs Shame Culture I have followed the details of this story as they have happened and i spoke to my Thai wife and a few Thai people about it. In their own sweet way the severity of what happened and the understanding to find the answer does not sink in as i try to form a deeper understanding with them. Also i feel the collectivist thinking does not allow them to proportion blame on somebody. I feel for the family in New Zealand as Thailand deals with wrong doings in a strange way but its their way. If you complain or debate something you are the one bringing the bad karma and its true they find it hard to admit blame becuase they do not like feeling bad. RIP all those that died "Their own sweet way" is something they constantly use to get of situations like this. I see nothing sweet about receiving payoffs so a hotel can stay open even though possibly 7 people died because of shunning responsibility. I think your explanation is true to a certain extent but really think about it, the choice is feeling bad or helping 7 families feel peace after they have lost a loved one. When you see it like that I believe this so called innocence is not so transparent. Im sorry they know what they are doing but they know they can get away with it because of the excuse "the Thai way". Edited May 12, 2011 by james24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acharn Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Dont scare the tourists ...and the Thais ..as now this hotel might be haunted full of ghosts ..... I just hope the families of those who died in this hotel will know the truth one day .... not sure ... there are so unresolved "mysteries" in the country . Where the victims not examined after their death, a normal blood test together with any other medical examination should have discovered any poisonous chemicals within the body, and if it was done, was it all negative, is there any "info" about that ?. Autopsies were probably conducted, at least after the third or fourth death, but autopsy results are not readily available in Thailand, especially if the public prosecutor wants to avoid prosecuting. We don't know if the results were negative, but many toxic substances are not detected by routine toxicology scans and will only be found if specifically tested for. Other substances are oxidized even after death and so are not detectable after a certain time has passed. It is a bit surprising that the deputy governor said the blood tests were done in the U.S. and Japan; sounds like some sort of special testing, but he said they were still waiting for the results? Strange. Anyway, according to the website chlorpyrifos.com, the chemical is in widespread use. A quick scan of the site didn't reveal the toxicity ratio (LD50), or maybe I just missed it. It's used to kill fleas on pets, and in the manufacture of flea collars that are commonly used in Western countries. The site says, "Chlorpyrifos is actually a neurotoxin and ingestion can cause a disruption in the transmission of nerve impulses. This can result in dizziness, headaches, loose motions, increased urination and salivation. When the ingestion is excessive, it could lead to paralysis, convulsions and even death. Chemicals like these are endocrine disruptors and their effects on the body can be disastrous as they also interfere with the regulated functioning of the hormonal system, making things run awry in the body." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaihog Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 The Thais are very self-centered when it comes to death....mai pen rai.... A few dead Farang is nothing compared to the 1,000 or so people killed ever year during Songkran, and nothing is ever done about the colossal loss of of life. The average Thai is probably wondering what all the fuss is about.... Money talks in Thailand, and the wealthy usually go unpunished, sad but true.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefaultName Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 This is ridiculous. There are many chemicals that your stomach can handle in relatively large quantities but your lungs can't, they provide a much more direct route into the bloodstream, it's their function to pass chemicals (Oxygen & Carbon Dioxide mainly) across the air/bloodstream barrier after all. The stomach has many more built-in safeguards. I don't know if this insecticide is at fault or not, but swallowing it proves nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deez Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 "As the provincial governor, I assure you that the police and public-health officials have worked with transparency." OK then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrowsdawdle Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 maybe its time we organised a picket line and told people that are thinking of checking in just whats been goin on im sure they are still getting a few guests that have no idea what danger there in All you have to do is go to the booking platforms like tripadvisor and agoda and post reviews. Even if Thailand has no liability, the booking platforms do not want to chance booking a proprerty that could involve them in a wrongful death lawsuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 "As the provincial governor, I assure you that the police and public-health officials have worked with transparency." Now pull the other one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmitch Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 The manager stayed there every day and was fine so of course there is no problem! Maybe his mattress wasn't one of those treated. There's no denial of the use of this chemical so I suppose it is now up to the experts to argue as to the toxicity of the fumes, which of course may affect some people more than others. I dislike the litigious society in the West these days but this is one instance where legal action against the hotel owners and management should be instigated if there is a belief that there is enough evidence to prove negligence. Not necessarily for financial award but for some sort of self-satisfaction for the bereaved. The problem is it would probably take half a lifetime to get to court in Thailand. The press conference could be interesting; I wonder if there will be any reporting in the Thai media? I'm glad to see that there is now at least a cryptic comment on tripadvisor, suggesting people google Downtown Inn before booking there. Does anyone have a link to a torrent of the Sixty Minutes programme as I would like to watch it. PM me, please, as it may not be allowed on this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rikioh053 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 What I heard from the Thai news...The death @ the hotel is not funny situation but what is funny is that the Thai house keepers are afraid of the Farang ghost so they would carry garlic with them. Think they watch too many vampire movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaoyang Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Guilt Culture vs Shame Culture I have followed the details of this story as they have happened and i spoke to my Thai wife and a few Thai people about it. In their own sweet way the severity of what happened and the understanding to find the answer does not sink in as i try to form a deeper understanding with them. Also i feel the collectivist thinking does not allow them to proportion blame on somebody. I feel for the family in New Zealand as Thailand deals with wrong doings in a strange way but its their way. If you complain or debate something you are the one bringing the bad karma and its true they find it hard to admit blame becuase they do not like feeling bad. RIP all those that died I agree that Asian cultures are shame based and the rest of your comment. But even though an explanation, it does not change the fact that the laws of nature and physics still take precedence and a dead person is still dead. All the face-saving efforts can't change that reality. It explains a lot about the chaos in Thailand and the backwardness of most of China. The approach is simply not very effective in solving real problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbk Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 flame deleted, it is possible to rebut someone's point without resorting to abuse and insults. keep it civil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moe666 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Maybe the mayor can prove this by taking a spoonful during the press conference. Good Idea. This is going to blow up in their faces because they're trying to smooth everything over and not being forthcoming (they haven't been since this first began). Another thing their "health expert" failed to mention is that the route of exposure is very critical in terms of health effects. The insecticide used did not kill the people because they took teaspoons of it. It killed them because they inhaled it all night in close proximity to the vapors. He also failed to mention that many other factors are involved in explaining why the hotel manager or others did not die from exposure (ventilation, length of exposure, concentration differences, etc.)... he also did not say whether or not every room was sprayed with that particular organochloride. Why doesn't he just come out and say that somebody made the concentration too strong and thus inadvertently poisoned the guests at his hotel (and probably at other nearby hotels). Land of massive censorship. Maybe they donot know that yet. This isn.t the movies where every thing is solved in an hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Guilt Culture vs Shame Culture I have followed the details of this story as they have happened and i spoke to my Thai wife and a few Thai people about it. In their own sweet way the severity of what happened and the understanding to find the answer does not sink in as i try to form a deeper understanding with them. Also i feel the collectivist thinking does not allow them to proportion blame on somebody. I feel for the family in New Zealand as Thailand deals with wrong doings in a strange way but its their way. If you complain or debate something you are the one bringing the bad karma and its true they find it hard to admit blame becuase they do not like feeling bad. RIP all those that died I second t36ony comments. I had a similar experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Card Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 I must say, I don't blame the governor. The chlorpyrifos theory is interesting but with only trace amounts found in only 1 person of what is only a moderately toxic chemical with an LD50 in animals of 32 to 1000 mg/kg (Wikipedia) that is supposed to have killed several would not stand up to scientific scrutiny. The media has usual has blown it out of all proportion because they want to sell copy not solve the mystery. This doesn't mean I believe everything has been made transparent, but the insecticide theory just does not explain anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theanimaster Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 The Thais are very self-centered when it comes to death....mai pen rai.... A few dead Farang is nothing compared to the 1,000 or so people killed ever year during Songkran, and nothing is ever done about the colossal loss of of life. The average Thai is probably wondering what all the fuss is about.... Money talks in Thailand, and the wealthy usually go unpunished, sad but true.... 6 dead farang and one Thai don't even make the headlines according to red shirts that have been clamoring for 'justice' when 10 of their comrades got themselves shot stupid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNPBC0 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Guidelines for the acute toxicity of chemical pesticides are provided by WHO. The latest revision of these can be found here: http://www.who.int/i...hazard_2009.pdf WHO classifies chlorpyrifos as "moderately hazardous". The LD50s (amount needed to cause death in 50% of those exposed) for substances in this category are 50-2000 mg/kg body weight for oral ingestion and 200-2000 mg/kg for dermal absorption. There are no separate guidelines for inhalation. The LD50s are derived from studies on rats. If all this sounds a bit vague (they are only 'guidelines'), that's unfortunately the scientific 'state of play'. The only human data are from studies of people who are admitted to hospital after self-poisoning: for example, http://www.reduas.fc...d_.1000357.pdf. Nevertheless, it does seem that fairly large amounts of chlorpyrifos would need to have to been involved, although in terms of the guidelines swallowing a teaspoonful does not seem at all sensible. Assuming that the pesticide has approximately the same density as common salt, then a teaspoonful would weigh around 6,000 mgs. For a person weighing 50 kg, this would be equivalent to 120 mg/kg (ie within the LD50 range for moderately hazardous pesticides). My understanding is that the biological half-life of chlorpyrifos is around 24 hrs, and it is virtually undetectable in the body 48 hrs after ingestion, but the pesticide can lead to a lingering reduced level of an important enzyme, acetylcholinesterase. Levels of this can be tested using fresh blood samples and levels can also be assessed using brain tissue a few days after death. An abnormally low level of the enzyme is not a definitive sign of chlorpyrifos poisoning, but it can provide strong corroboration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KKvampire Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 More countries should issue warning against visiting Thialand. PERIOD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moe666 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 So the governor makes a statement that they are trying to solve the deaths and not trying to cover up. He is then lambasted and acused of cover up. These test for chemicals take time as well as a possible back log at the labs. This is not CSI television were they have a lab standing by just for them even in the states there is a lab back log of months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Guilt Culture vs Shame Culture I have followed the details of this story as they have happened and i spoke to my Thai wife and a few Thai people about it. In their own sweet way the severity of what happened and the understanding to find the answer does not sink in as i try to form a deeper understanding with them. Also i feel the collectivist thinking does not allow them to proportion blame on somebody. I feel for the family in New Zealand as Thailand deals with wrong doings in a strange way but its their way. If you complain or debate something you are the one bringing the bad karma and its true they find it hard to admit blame becuase they do not like feeling bad. RIP all those that died Or to put it more simply, since they were young they have realised that people with money and influence can kill and steal with impunity and that the truth is a luxury beyond the reach of poor and middle class people. So, why bother to rail against the system which will only make you and those around you feel miserable? Just knuckle down and hope to be reincarnated as a Thai-Chinese gangster politician in the next life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geriatrickid Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Dont scare the tourists ...and the Thais ..as now this hotel might be haunted full of ghosts ..... I just hope the families of those who died in this hotel will know the truth one day .... not sure ... there are so unresolved "mysteries" in the country . Where the victims not examined after their death, a normal blood test together with any other medical examination should have discovered any poisonous chemicals within the body, and if it was done, was it all negative, is there any "info" about that ?. It can take months to do run the blood tests. If you could see how many samples are piled up in the typical lab, you'd be shocked. It requires equipment and skilled personnel to run the tests and there isn't a lab in the world that can run the tests in short order unless its a national crisis. Even then it requires proper collection of samples, both blood and organ tissue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moe666 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 More countries should issue warning against visiting Thialand. PERIOD Why, I just spent 6 months in Chiang Mai and survived without any ill affects except for the ocassional hang over. If you think Thailand is dangerous please donot visit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 (edited) Guidelines for the acute toxicity of chemical pesticides are provided by WHO. The latest revision of these can be found here: http://www.who.int/i...hazard_2009.pdf WHO classifies chlorpyrifos as "moderately hazardous". The LD50s (amount needed to cause death in 50% of those exposed) for substances in this category are 50-2000 mg/kg body weight for oral ingestion and 200-2000 mg/kg for dermal absorption. There are no separate guidelines for inhalation. The LD50s are derived from studies on rats. If all this sounds a bit vague (they are only 'guidelines'), that's unfortunately the scientific 'state of play'. The only human data are from studies of people who are admitted to hospital after self-poisoning: for example, http://www.reduas.fc...d_.1000357.pdf. Nevertheless, it does seem that fairly large amounts of chlorpyrifos would need to have to been involved, although in terms of the guidelines swallowing a teaspoonful does not seem at all sensible. Assuming that the pesticide has approximately the same density as common salt, then a teaspoonful would weigh around 6,000 mgs. For a person weighing 50 kg, this would be equivalent to 120 mg/kg (ie within the LD50 range for moderately hazardous pesticides). My understanding is that the biological half-life of chlorpyrifos is around 24 hrs, and it is virtually undetectable in the body 48 hrs after ingestion, but the pesticide can lead to a lingering reduced level of an important enzyme, acetylcholinesterase. Levels of this can be tested using fresh blood samples and levels can also be assessed using brain tissue a few days after death. An abnormally low level of the enzyme is not a definitive sign of chlorpyrifos poisoning, but it can provide strong corroboration. I am not sure if these studies based on rats would take into account much lower levels of chlorpyrifos required to affect people with higher levels of sensitivity. I was made sick for a day by this chemical with severe headache, nausea and exhaustion while others in the house sprayed with it reported no ill effects. Hypersensitive people have died from exposure to small quantities of even pyrethroids that are still widely used indoors as pesticides in Western countries. It is quite possible that the chemical was used incorrectly by using too high a concentration and/or spraying the mattresses and pillows. Rooms should also be ventilated for at least 24 hours before putting humans in them but that would have meant losing some lovely money. Edited May 12, 2011 by Arkady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FOODLOVER Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Guilt Culture vs Shame Culture I have followed the details of this story as they have happened and i spoke to my Thai wife and a few Thai people about it. In their own sweet way the severity of what happened and the understanding to find the answer does not sink in as i try to form a deeper understanding with them. Also i feel the collectivist thinking does not allow them to proportion blame on somebody. I feel for the family in New Zealand as Thailand deals with wrong doings in a strange way but its their way. If you complain or debate something you are the one bringing the bad karma and its true they find it hard to admit blame becuase they do not like feeling bad. RIP all those that died What a load. wouldnt want those sweet little fellows to do the right thing. Might feel bad though so never mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farang0tang Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 And the 2pm press conference will just be more BS - probably? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tragickingdom Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 The Chiangmai governor has no credibility at all. Not only is he not elected according democratic rules, this person went out of his way to let everyone believe the deaths were natural. He is in no position to take the lead. Unfortunately all politicians are camera horny and have no shame. Although they made themselves completely ridiculous one day, they claim the high ground the next day. Just as the governor the Chiangmai police has precisely the same problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msg362 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Ridiculous. Of course they died from insecticide poisoning, same as the people in Phi Phi a few years back. No one is ever to blame in Thailand, unless it's a farang who shouldn't be there in the first place. Glad you are so sure. Where is your evidence and supporting data? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msg362 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Guidelines for the acute toxicity of chemical pesticides are provided by WHO. The latest revision of these can be found here: http://www.who.int/i...hazard_2009.pdf WHO classifies chlorpyrifos as "moderately hazardous". The LD50s (amount needed to cause death in 50% of those exposed) for substances in this category are 50-2000 mg/kg body weight for oral ingestion and 200-2000 mg/kg for dermal absorption. There are no separate guidelines for inhalation. The LD50s are derived from studies on rats. If all this sounds a bit vague (they are only 'guidelines'), that's unfortunately the scientific 'state of play'. The only human data are from studies of people who are admitted to hospital after self-poisoning: for example, http://www.reduas.fc...d_.1000357.pdf. Nevertheless, it does seem that fairly large amounts of chlorpyrifos would need to have to been involved, although in terms of the guidelines swallowing a teaspoonful does not seem at all sensible. Assuming that the pesticide has approximately the same density as common salt, then a teaspoonful would weigh around 6,000 mgs. For a person weighing 50 kg, this would be equivalent to 120 mg/kg (ie within the LD50 range for moderately hazardous pesticides). My understanding is that the biological half-life of chlorpyrifos is around 24 hrs, and it is virtually undetectable in the body 48 hrs after ingestion, but the pesticide can lead to a lingering reduced level of an important enzyme, acetylcholinesterase. Levels of this can be tested using fresh blood samples and levels can also be assessed using brain tissue a few days after death. An abnormally low level of the enzyme is not a definitive sign of chlorpyrifos poisoning, but it can provide strong corroboration. I am not sure if these studies based on rats would take into account much lower levels of chlorpyrifos required to affect people with higher levels of sensitivity. I was made sick for a day by this chemical with severe headache, nausea and exhaustion while others in the house sprayed with it reported no ill effects. Hypersensitive people have died from exposure to small quantities of even pyrethroids that are still widely used indoors as pesticides in Western countries. It is quite possible that the chemical was used incorrectly by using too high a concentration and/or spraying the mattresses and pillows. Rooms should also be ventilated for at least 24 hours before putting humans in them but that would have meant losing some lovely money. Both serious and important points, but if I am right, the samples showing the insecticide in the room were taken some time AFTER the deaths so are not relevant unless it can be shown that the room(s) were sprayed BEFORE the deaths.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normac44 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 I was in New Zealand 2 weeks ago and this girl's father is really pushing the issue over her cause of death. He is not taking it lightly and good on him. Let' s see a good honest result here. If that is possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirk0233 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 (edited) Could the problem be the bedbugs and not the bedbug spray? Canadian bedbugs carry superbug bacteria: study Posted: 12 May 2011 1119 hrs WASHINGTON: Could bloodsucking bedbugs get any creepier? Turns out, the answer is yes. Bedbugs carrying potent drug-resistant staph bacteria have been found in a poor section of Vancouver, Canada, said a report released by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on Wednesday. Five bedbugs were plucked off the bodies of three hospitalized patients from a rough section of downtown Vancouver where rates of poverty, HIV and injection drug use are high. The bugs were tested and found to be infected with methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) and vancomycin-resistant Enterococcus faecium (VRE), said the CDC's Emerging Infectious Diseases report.<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">http://www.channelne...1128341/1/.html AND Deadly MRSA superbug has 50 percent mortality rate in hospital patients Monday, November 30, 2009 by: E. Huff, staff writer (NaturalNews) A recent Henry Ford Hospital study revealed that a new strain of Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA), the deadly bacterial "superbug" that becomes resistant to many antibiotics, is five times more deadly than other previously-seen strains. Fifty percent of patients who become infected with the new virulent strain die within 30 days; other MRSA strains kill only about 11 percent. Called USA600, the new strain possesses uniquely noxious characteristics that researchers are linking to the significantly higher mortality rate. Study findings were presented at the 47th annual meeting of the Infectious Diseases Society of America in Philadelphia. Typical MRSA strains are problematic because they are resistant to virtually every available antibiotic drug. Most MRSA infections are allegedly treatable with vancomycin, a powerful intravenous drug, but the new USA600 strain has proven itself to be nearly impervious to the drug. Deadly MRSA strains typically take hold on a person through skin and blood infections, as well as through surgical wounds. While predominantly contracted in health care facilities like hospitals and clinics, the disease is now starting to make the rounds in otherwise healthy people in the outside world. http://www.naturalne..._superbugs.html Bloodstream infection If MRSA bacteria enter into the bloodstream from your skin, they can affect almost any part of the body. They can cause: septicaemia (blood poisoning) septic shock (widespread infection of the blood that leads to a fall in blood pressure and organ failure) septic arthritis (severe joint problems) osteomyelitis (bone marrow infection) abscesses deep within the body meningitis pneumonia endocarditis (infection of the heart lining) Edited May 12, 2011 by kirk0233 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoBrainer Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 "media had given contradictory information, such as claiming the hotel owner was Panadda's relative, which was not true." So who is the owner of the Hotel and why are they Hiding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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