Working Legally In Thailand - Immigration And Labour Departments Speaks Out

[george]

WORKING LEGALLY IN THAILAND

Working legally in Thailand

Seminar from Helping Hands radio program

Rhuchuchai Pothai, 2nd left, and Witthaya Singmanee, 2nd right,

answered questions on the live radio broadcast at the Imperial

Mae Ping in Chiang Mai on Wednesday, June 7, 2011.

The Helping Hands radio program from NBT radio station 93.25 was established in 2001 and started English language programming for the expat residents of Chiang Mai. In conjunction with this idea of offering local expats as much knowledge and information as possible, they organized a seminar with head of the Work Permit Department at the Labor Office Rhuchuchai Potha and Immigration Investigative Division officer Witthaya Singmanee at the Imperial Mae Ping on Wednesday, June 7, 2011.

The evening saw over 60 people attend dinner and a further 40 fill the room to hear their questions answered. Since it was a live broadcast on the radio, host Wouter Van der Stichel read the submitted questions aloud in English which were then translated into Thai by the Thai announcer.

Some time was spent offering up descriptions of the duties of their offices and the legal definition of work that is used by the Labor Department; "to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits". Additionally Khun Rhuchuchai pointed out that beyond the application, is the intent. If it’s clear there is intent to work with a goal to profit from that labor, either on the part of the foreigner or of the business, then that is also illegal.

A key question that was asked was in regard to performers who wish to perform a one off show for charity or otherwise. He said there is a temporary permit to work for not longer than 15 days, free from his office and considered on a case by case basis. But, he pointed out several times, you must apply for it. He reiterated that he supports those who wish to perform legally, and will be happy to approve such applications for these kinds of shows once applied for and considered on a case by case basis. Anything over the 15 days requires a legal work permit, which requires a sponsoring business or charitable organization.

Volunteer work, he pointed out, requires a work permit, however, many charities are looking for volunteers and are willing to sponsor people and he suggested that he could offer guidance to those interested in such a work permit. For those who wish to work at multiple organizations, he pointed out that that initial work permit is required but it is possible to add an employer or job to the work permit once its issued. This would also apply to musicians who wish to play at different venues.

He noted that the office offers different periods of work permits, from a year for 3,100 baht to 6 months for 1,550 baht and 1-3 months for 750 baht.

He added that there is no “freelance” work permit, that one must be sponsored by a company. However, when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable.

A company started by a Thai person and employing and paying social security for 4 Thai employees can offer one work permit for a foreigner without needing the required 2 million baht in registered capital.

The Immigration officer, Khun Witthaya, addressed the issues of overcrowding at the Immigration office noting that they have requested budget for expansion but the money must come from the Ministry of Interior in order to expand the premises, or parking. He added, he knows there are problems and that queueing can be very long and recommended to people that until any funds are granted, they avoid visiting after a holiday. He pointed out that the ratio of officers to foreigners resident in Chiang Mai is quite high and that the officers work as fast as they can but, especially on busy days, they reach capacity and go no further. When asked if there were plans to allow a fast track service for longer term resident foreigners, Khun Witthaya said that he had asked the main office this question and the answer was a clear “no”, there was going to be no fast track option.

Retirement visas were introduced and he reiterated the qualifications; must be age 50 or over, and must have either 800,000 baht in a Thai bank or a pension of 65,000 baht a month that must be certified by the Consulate or a combination of both. He added that the money must be in the bank for a minimum of 3 months on the first application. Permanent residency was introduced and while he said applications are taken usually once a year, he is not sure when the next announcement will be. He said a non-immigrant visa for 3 years is necessary, and either working in Thailand, having invested in Thailand or married to a Thai national will offer eligibility to apply for permanent residency. Khun Rhuchuchai pointed out that if you obtain PR you must still get a work permit to work.

The issue of musicians being arrested for performing at jam sessions was discussed and it was said that if a complaint is made then they must investigate. Venues that offer regularly and publicly advertised shows are clearly obtaining a benefit from the performance and that this shows the intent to profit from it. Khun Rhuchuchai said, there is no problem with a spontaneous jam session, and a work permit is not needed for that. But at a regularly advertised show, the intent is clearly to make a profit from performers. He added they didn’t just swoop in and arrest people but investigated the venues and visited them regularly to ensure that this was a regular occurrence.

He reiterated to performers that for one off shows a free, 15 day permission can be applied for at the Work Permit office. He said, you must request it properly that you perform and he has no problem granting permission for that.

As one of the organizers pointed out later, while not all questions were answered as comprehensively as some may have hoped, the officers did seem to make an honest attempt to answer all questions to the best of their knowledge and ability.

DJ’s, Helping Hands organizers and executives and

government officials joined the two officers for a group

photo before the live broadcast.

[chiangmaimail]2011-06-08[/chiangmaimail]

[lopburi3]

He added that the money must be in the bank for a minimum of 3 months on the first application.

The money must be in account 2 months for first application per police order 777/2551. Perhaps the word intended was 'after' rather than 'on'?

[realitymanagement]

Well Good work to all the people that are trying to shed light on a often confusing matter!

I'm sure its most appreciated.

[Sateev]

He added that the money must be in the bank for a minimum of 3 months on the first application.

The money must be in account 2 months for first application per police order 777/2551. Perhaps the word intended was 'after' rather than 'on'?

And only if using the lump sum in the bank method.

[Boater]

However, when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable.

OK , so that would mean people working in Bolier Rooms where excempt from having a work permit then? , as when ever they get arrested, it is always for not having a work permit ...

or ... for people working in SEO targeting companies abroad who employee foreign people? ..... the list could go on.

But from what i make out from this statement, as long as you deal with clients OUTSIDE of Thailand, and not to foreigners or Thai's in Thailand, you can work without a work permit?

[bangkokrick]

He added that the money must be in the bank for a minimum of 3 months on the first application.

The money must be in account 2 months for first application per police order 777/2551. Perhaps the word intended was 'after' rather than 'on'?

' Married to a Thai national will offer eligibility to apply for permanent residency'. I am reading this correctly. You can apply for PR if married to a Thai, I thought that you had to be paying Thai tax to do this?

Rick

[assistthai]

The meeting was let down my the translation from English to Thai which made it impoosible for the speakers to answer some questions as what he said in Thai didnt make sense!

Its good for people to know about the 15day permit, however you cant just walk in and request one, you need a large amount of paperwork, and they are usually unlikely to give you one. They will certaintly not issue you with 7 in a year.

Good event though, well done for organising it.

[LivinLOS]

I wish I had known about this in advance, as I would love someone to explain the difference between karaoke performance and 'jamming' musicians. Or are they now saying every Thai Karaoke place is illegal for non Thais to use ??

He added that there is no “freelance” work permit, that one must be sponsored by a company. However, when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable.

Someone should perhaps tell "Noppadol Ployudee, Phuket Provincial Employment Office chief" who recently clearly stated "In general, foreigners who want to work without forming their own company can apply for a freelance work permit, but I cannot say exactly which types of work will be approved and which will not.

However, just for example, artists, artisans, singers, musicians, technicians, reporters, among others, are some of the types of workers who are usually allowed to work on a self-employed basis"

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1200

I remember a farang getting a freelance media / writers work permit too.

[surayu]

"Working legally in Thailand", that means working without breaking the laws and without committing crimes.....how many police officers were attending the meeting again?

[lopburi3]

' Married to a Thai national will offer eligibility to apply for permanent residency'.

Tax payment is one of the things considered in the approval process so in most cases such payment would be an important consideration for PR application.

[Mario2008]

He added that the money must be in the bank for a minimum of 3 months on the first application.

The money must be in account 2 months for first application per police order 777/2551. Perhaps the word intended was 'after' rather than 'on'?

' Married to a Thai national will offer eligibility to apply for permanent residency'. I am reading this correctly. You can apply for PR if married to a Thai, I thought that you had to be paying Thai tax to do this?

Rick

You can even easier apply for Thai nationality, directly without getting PR first.

Stiil, as has been said, paying your taxes is an important factor also. Just being married to a Thai is not enough.

[Jobo]

Could somebody tell me why the 800,000 baht required to be in a Thai Bank Account for the purposes of securing a Retirement Visa could not be equally achieved by significant sums invested in the SET (Stock Exchange of Thailand)?

[AsiaCheese]

However, when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable.

OK , so that would mean people working in Bolier Rooms where excempt from having a work permit then? , as when ever they get arrested, it is always for not having a work permit ...

or ... for people working in SEO targeting companies abroad who employee foreign people? ..... the list could go on.

But from what i make out from this statement, as long as you deal with clients OUTSIDE of Thailand, and not to foreigners or Thai's in Thailand, you can work without a work permit?

I think what you are infering is the result of a mangled translation! The reference was probably to work done outside of Thailand, not involving anything to do with Thailand (as in: you live here, but go to country XY for a month to take care of your business there). Because: the way laws are formulated, if you as much as utter the intent of driving a nail into a wall for a handicapped friend, you're already in violation-land...!!!

[hardy1943]

He added that the money must be in the bank for a minimum of 3 months on the first application.

The money must be in account 2 months for first application per police order 777/2551. Perhaps the word intended was 'after' rather than 'on'?

' Married to a Thai national will offer eligibility to apply for permanent residency'. I am reading this correctly. You can apply for PR if married to a Thai, I thought that you had to be paying Thai tax to do this?

Rick

I am married for over 7 years to a Thai and been living here we have our own house of course in my Thai wife name and renew my yearly non immigration O retirement visa. What do I do to get 3 year resident visa?

[TechnikaIII]

How about this case: An artist (painter/photographer) or an author, who likes to spend time in Thailand, is content with a 30 day stamp in his/her passport on arrival, and tourist visa from neighbouring countries, ... sits in his private space to draw, paint or write, .. has no interest in having clients in Thailand, never shows his work in Thailand, because all the income is generated from business outside Thailand, > publisher in the UK > galleries in Europe etc Stays out of everyone's way, ships his work out via courier, in his luggage or in the case of digital files, via the WWW .. does not take a single Baht from anyone in Thailand, nor competes with any local "wanna be" artists, so jealousy is nothing to contend with ....

If that were you, would you even worry about a permit?

[marquess]

He added that the money must be in the bank for a minimum of 3 months on the first application.

The money must be in account 2 months for first application per police order 777/2551. Perhaps the word intended was 'after' rather than 'on'?

' Married to a Thai national will offer eligibility to apply for permanent residency'. I am reading this correctly. You can apply for PR if married to a Thai, I thought that you had to be paying Thai tax to do this?

Rick

You can even easier apply for Thai nationality, directly without getting PR first.

Stiil, as has been said, paying your taxes is an important factor also. Just being married to a Thai is not enough.

Why is just being married not enough? Your statement implies that one has to both be working and married to get PR, marriage is a separate category for application!

[FarangBuddha]

Could somebody tell me why the 800,000 baht required to be in a Thai Bank Account for the purposes of securing a Retirement Visa could not be equally achieved by significant sums invested in the SET (Stock Exchange of Thailand)?

"Significant sums" is a very subjective term and of course varies from person to person. If you have such "significant sums" invested in the SET, why can't you take out a measly 800k of this significant amount out of the stock market and park in in a bank (if for only 2-3 months of the year...if you cannot bear to leave it in all year)?

[daiwill60]

So, if theThai Gov't immigration Dep't is so intent on making sure everyone is working legally, with appropriate work permits in Thailand, then why is it that so many schools are allowed to advertise jobs for teachers and then keep them waiting anywhere between 3 months to a year before giving a farang teacher a work permit, and yet so often when the new academic year begins and jobs are being advertised, they keep on advertising that work permits will be obtained on behalf of the teachers? Surely they know they need teachers, so why are they never prepeared for the process when it occurs and jobs are offered, same old same old problem every year, then the schools wonder why there is s shortage of applicants for the posts. Again, Wake Up Thailand.

[Dante99]

Could somebody tell me why the 800,000 baht required to be in a Thai Bank Account for the purposes of securing a Retirement Visa could not be equally achieved by significant sums invested in the SET (Stock Exchange of Thailand)?

It is simple, safe and easy to deal only with bank accounts. Securities account statements are easy to produce as Bernie and others have shown the world. If you have big sums in securities accounts, holding 20,000 Euros in a bank account is not a problem, is it?

[daiwill60]

Ah yes but what if he sells his art / photographs online and someone from thailand buys it over the internet?????

How about this case: An artist (painter/photographer) or an author, who likes to spend time in Thailand, is content with a 30 day stamp in his/her passport on arrival, and tourist visa from neighbouring countries, ... sits in his private space to draw, paint or write, .. has no interest in having clients in Thailand, never shows his work in Thailand, because all the income is generated from business outside Thailand, > publisher in the UK > galleries in Europe etc Stays out of everyone's way, ships his work out via courier, in his luggage or in the case of digital files, via the WWW .. does not take a single Baht from anyone in Thailand, nor competes with any local "wanna be" artists, so jealousy is nothing to contend with ....

If that were you, would you even worry about a permit?

[CNF55]

Could somebody tell me why the 800,000 baht required to be in a Thai Bank Account for the purposes of securing a Retirement Visa could not be equally achieved by significant sums invested in the SET (Stock Exchange of Thailand)?

If your significant investment is THB 10 Mio or more you can also apply for an investment visa.

[Jayroo]

[

But from what i make out from this statement, as long as you deal with clients OUTSIDE of Thailand, and not to foreigners or Thai's in Thailand, you can work without a work permit?

That's the way I read it too...

[Jayroo]

However, when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable.

OK , so that would mean people working in Bolier Rooms where excempt from having a work permit then? , as when ever they get arrested, it is always for not having a work permit ...

or ... for people working in SEO targeting companies abroad who employee foreign people? ..... the list could go on.

But from what i make out from this statement, as long as you deal with clients OUTSIDE of Thailand, and not to foreigners or Thai's in Thailand, you can work without a work permit?

I think what you are infering is the result of a mangled translation! The reference was probably to work done outside of Thailand, not involving anything to do with Thailand (as in: you live here, but go to country XY for a month to take care of your business there). Because: the way laws are formulated, if you as much as utter the intent of driving a nail into a wall for a handicapped friend, you're already in violation-land...!!!

It's pretty obvious the person that asked the question about the "Specialists offering advice" etc, was referring to a person living in Thailand, and if the person was offering advice outside of Thailand to people outside of Thailand, then the Thai Immigration department wouldn't need to be asked this question, as der, it has nothing to do with them in that scenario.

[Furryman]

Ah yes but what if he sells his art / photographs online and someone from thailand buys it over the internet?????

How about this case: An artist (painter/photographer) or an author, who likes to spend time in Thailand, is content with a 30 day stamp in his/her passport on arrival, and tourist visa from neighbouring countries, ... sits in his private space to draw, paint or write, .. has no interest in having clients in Thailand, never shows his work in Thailand, because all the income is generated from business outside Thailand, > publisher in the UK > galleries in Europe etc Stays out of everyone's way, ships his work out via courier, in his luggage or in the case of digital files, via the WWW .. does not take a single Baht from anyone in Thailand, nor competes with any local "wanna be" artists, so jealousy is nothing to contend with ....

If that were you, would you even worry about a permit?

If a Thai person bought the item via a US website for example, does that count as a transaction in Thailand or is it a us transaction, or both?

The above hypothetical is exactly the situation my friend is in.

[LivinLOS]

However, when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable.

OK , so that would mean people working in Bolier Rooms where excempt from having a work permit then? , as when ever they get arrested, it is always for not having a work permit ...

or ... for people working in SEO targeting companies abroad who employee foreign people? ..... the list could go on.

But from what i make out from this statement, as long as you deal with clients OUTSIDE of Thailand, and not to foreigners or Thai's in Thailand, you can work without a work permit?

I think what you are infering is the result of a mangled translation! The reference was probably to work done outside of Thailand, not involving anything to do with Thailand (as in: you live here, but go to country XY for a month to take care of your business there). Because: the way laws are formulated, if you as much as utter the intent of driving a nail into a wall for a handicapped friend, you're already in violation-land...!!!

It's pretty obvious the person that asked the question about the "Specialists offering advice" etc, was referring to a person living in Thailand, and if the person was offering advice outside of Thailand to people outside of Thailand, then the Thai Immigration department wouldn't need to be asked this question, as der, it has nothing to do with them in that scenario.

As well as incorrectly saying theres no freelance visa, they also totally contradict what other depts say about work permits for online consulting.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1175

"Doing business online is considered a type of work, so foreigners are required to have a work permit to do so"

Somkiat Baiadul, an officer at the work permit division of the Phuket Department of Employment

"If we find out that a foreigner is doing business online without a work permit, we will arrest them and take legal action through the court.”

Pol Col Panuwat Ruamrak, Superintendent of Phuket Immigration

Left hand.. Meet right hand..

[AsiaCheese]

However, when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable.

OK , so that would mean people working in Bolier Rooms where excempt from having a work permit then? , as when ever they get arrested, it is always for not having a work permit ...

or ... for people working in SEO targeting companies abroad who employee foreign people? ..... the list could go on.

But from what i make out from this statement, as long as you deal with clients OUTSIDE of Thailand, and not to foreigners or Thai's in Thailand, you can work without a work permit?

I think what you are infering is the result of a mangled translation! The reference was probably to work done outside of Thailand, not involving anything to do with Thailand (as in: you live here, but go to country XY for a month to take care of your business there). Because: the way laws are formulated, if you as much as utter the intent of driving a nail into a wall for a handicapped friend, you're already in violation-land...!!!

It's pretty obvious the person that asked the question about the "Specialists offering advice" etc, was referring to a person living in Thailand, and if the person was offering advice outside of Thailand to people outside of Thailand, then the Thai Immigration department wouldn't need to be asked this question, as der, it has nothing to do with them in that scenario.

You might just find that you're wrong there. There have been cases of people living here, doing something in the privacy of their own 4 walls, for a company in their home country (easy enough via Internet; the case in question was a German guy living in Pattaya, programming for Germany), getting busted and deported because someone bad-mouthed him @ immigration, and immigration concluded that he was indeed working without a permit. Absolutely nothing concerning Thailand was involved.

In theory, if you're in the process of writing a book, you're also working (with the intent of turning it into cash eventually). While most countries take the stance of "don't be ridiculous; that's not what we mean with 'working' because it doesn't affect people or the job market here", Thai immigration police seems to have a massively more strict view of things, up to and including a bit of paranoïa that you might be doing something a Thai person could also do, thus bereaving said Thai person of an income, and the state of taxes...

[bsssboy]

Just want to ask, Did Leonardo dicapro have a work permit when he worked in thailand or cage for that matter?

[Jayroo]

Just want to ask, Did Leonardo dicapro have a work permit when he worked in thailand or cage for that matter?

I'm pretty sure they all had to get permits through Hollywood or whatever movie producer, who organize that crap way in advance anyway... I'm pretty sure Thai immigration didn't have a split second of hesitation in granting those work permits anyway.... $$$$

[Arkady]

He added that the money must be in the bank for a minimum of 3 months on the first application.

The money must be in account 2 months for first application per police order 777/2551. Perhaps the word intended was 'after' rather than 'on'?

' Married to a Thai national will offer eligibility to apply for permanent residency'. I am reading this correctly. You can apply for PR if married to a Thai, I thought that you had to be paying Thai tax to do this?

Rick

Technically that is correct because there is a category in the regulations for applicants who are supporting Thai dependents. However, they normally come unstuck because the means of supporting the dependents is not verifiable in a way that is acceptable to Thai bureaucrats - obviously not a pension from abroad. It might be worth applying in that category if you had a significant income from investment in Thailand. However, if this is the case, you could probably start a business and employ yourself. Basically they expect you to be working in Thailand to be able to support your dependents, so the category is virtually a duplication. Some one posted in the Camerata thread that he went along to apply in this category without a job in Thailand but the officers refused to accept his application to save his money and trouble. He then came back with a lawyer who pointed out that he was qualified under this category and forced them to accept his application and application fee. Obviously his application would have got no support from Immigration which has to short list internally the applications that are submitted to the next round, the committee for permanent residence. His futile application will gather dust in some dark corner of Chaengwattana until there is an order to destroy applications that are more than 50 years old! The paper trail required for PR applications is extremely burdensome, so there is no point in going through the hassle with zero chance.

I note that the Immigration officer disingenuously omitted to point out that the Interior Miinstry failed without explanation to issue the annual quota for permanent residence applications for 2010, so that no applications could be made at all last year. There has also been no official explanation as to why the applications from 2006 to 2009 are all stuck in the Interior Ministry.

[Arkady]

However, when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable.

This is obviously not correct. He must have failed to understand the question properly or just felt like releasing some hot air. There is nothing in the Working of Aliens Act that suggests that advising overseas clients is not work that needs a work permit. That would suggest that brokers advising overseas fund managers didn't need work permits which is obviously nonsense. Clearly advising overseas clients is work that requires a work permit and any income generated from such work performed in Thailand is also taxable.