Tires

[Spaniel]

A friend of mine just got new tires for his Toyota Camry and he told me they inflated them with nitrogen. I've never heard of this as always used air. Is this something new? And what is the advantage of nitrogen?

[threedot]

http://www.racq.com.au/motoring/cars/car_advice/car_fact_sheets/nitrogen_for_tyres

In my opinion a complete gimmick for anything other than racing/specialist applications.

[Gary A]

Nitrogen molecules are larger than oxygen molecules. You may think that since air is mostly nitrogen that it makes little difference. In fact the oxygen molecules will actually pass through the rubber tire causing it to lose pressure. I had new tires installed on my truck several months ago and they hold pressure very well. I have not had to pump any of them up since they have been installed. I think it is a good investment since the cost is quite low.

[ExpatOilWorker]

Literature reports of kinetic diameters for O2 and N2 molecules, derived from several different types of experimental

measurements, give slightly different values, but all show that O2 has a slightly smaller diameter than N2. The

following examples expressed in Angstrom units demonstrate this (one Angstrom unit is 10 to the -10th power meters,

i.e., one-ten-billionth of a meter): from gas viscosity data, O2 2.96 and N2 3.16 (difference 0.20); from van der Waal's

interaction data, O2 2.90 and N2 3.14 (difference 0.24); from molecular refraction data, O2 2.34 and N2 2.40

(difference 0.06). Other experiments, less applicable to transport situations, such as from closest packing, when the

two molecules exist in a frozen solid state at very low temperatures, still show O2 to be a smaller size than N2 (O2

3.75 and N2 4.00, difference 0.25).

[John 1]

Gee that was interesting reading,just as interesting we used to put water in tractor tyres.

[Semper]

Nitrogen molecules are larger than oxygen molecules. You may think that since air is mostly nitrogen that it makes little difference. In fact the oxygen molecules will actually pass through the rubber tire causing it to lose pressure. I had new tires installed on my truck several months ago and they hold pressure very well. I have not had to pump any of them up since they have been installed. I think it is a good investment since the cost is quite low.

How much would a "pump up" be?

Edited June 24, 2011 by metisdead
Do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes.

[richard_smith237]

How do the flush the air out of the tyre so that they are filled with only 100% nitrogen ?

[transam]

How do the flush the air out of the tyre so that they are filled with only 100% nitrogen ?

Unscrew the valve. Wooooooooooooooooooooooooosh.

[thunder30101]

Yeh Yeh Yeh believe whatever you find, ya pays your money and ya takes yer chances.1. Do nitrogen-filled tires maintain proper pressure longer? The premise for this claim is that nitrogen is a larger molecule than oxygen. It is. Only slightly. But let’s not omit the fact that we’re talking about molecules here and not just the element. Oxygen and nitrogen are both diatomic molecules. Nitrogen actually has less mass than oxygen, so Graham’s Law dictates that it diffuses a bit faster than oxygen. However, since the actual size of the oxygen molecule (O2) is a bit larger than that of a nitrogen molecule (N2), this only applies if the opening from which the molecules are effusing from is large enough to permit the largest of the two. In such cases, N2 will diffuse faster.The question, then, becomes, are the pores in rubber (assuming there are such pores) smaller than the N2 molecule but larger than the O2 molecule? I don’t know the answer to this. Nor could I find any literature in the few minutes I searched, but if anyone has a citation to an independent (i.e. non Nitrogen Tire industry) study or bit of research, I’m interested. Without digging out my old chemistry textbook, I’m willing to tentatively accept Wiki Answers on the sizes of N2 and O2 molecules: N2 is roughly 300 picometers while O2 is slightly smaller at 292 picometers. I’m open to revising these figures if someone cites a more reliable source, but I can’t imagine that there’d be any reason for the link to be more than slightly wrong.

[transam]

Yeh Yeh Yeh believe whatever you find, ya pays your money and ya takes yer chances.1. Do nitrogen-filled tires maintain proper pressure longer? The premise for this claim is that nitrogen is a larger molecule than oxygen. It is. Only slightly. But let's not omit the fact that we're talking about molecules here and not just the element. Oxygen and nitrogen are both diatomic molecules. Nitrogen actually has less mass than oxygen, so Graham's Law dictates that it diffuses a bit faster than oxygen. However, since the actual size of the oxygen molecule (O2) is a bit larger than that of a nitrogen molecule (N2), this only applies if the opening from which the molecules are effusing from is large enough to permit the largest of the two. In such cases, N2 will diffuse faster.The question, then, becomes, are the pores in rubber (assuming there are such pores) smaller than the N2 molecule but larger than the O2 molecule? I don't know the answer to this. Nor could I find any literature in the few minutes I searched, but if anyone has a citation to an independent (i.e. non Nitrogen Tire industry) study or bit of research, I'm interested. Without digging out my old chemistry textbook, I'm willing to tentatively accept Wiki Answers on the sizes of N2 and O2 molecules: N2 is roughly 300 picometers while O2 is slightly smaller at 292 picometers. I'm open to revising these figures if someone cites a more reliable source, but I can't imagine that there'd be any reason for the link to be more than slightly wrong.

My eyes have gone all fuzzy with your underlined tight script.. Me getting old l suppose.

[WarpSpeed]

I was trying very hard to avoid to chiming in as I have better things to do these days but it's as much to do with the moisture content in the atmospheric air mixture which is not exclusively made of O2 and it's potential for expansion under heat cycles due to higher moisture content..

More consistent temps and pressures under all conditions equates to better fuel mileage, safer performance and tire wear..

Edited June 24, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[Gary A]

Nitrogen molecules are larger than oxygen molecules. You may think that since air is mostly nitrogen that it makes little difference. In fact the oxygen molecules will actually pass through the rubber tire causing it to lose pressure. I had new tires installed on my truck several months ago and they hold pressure very well. I have not had to pump any of them up since they have been installed. I think it is a good investment since the cost is quite low.

How much would a "pump up" be?

Because I bought the tires there, it was included in the price.

[Spaniel]

Thanks for all the replies. So, what's the verdict? Air or nitrogen? I think I will stick with air since you have to pay for the nitrogen and it seems not to be much if any better and it not easily available.

[Gary A]

Since I bought a new set of tires and was able to get the nitrogen fill thrown in with the deal, I couldn't lose. If the nitrogen would have proven no better than air, I would have just topped them off with air. Is it better? All four of my tires have the same pressure now as when they were filled months ago. Maybe they would have been the same with air, Who knows. The nitrogen fill certainly doesn't hurt anything.

[WarpSpeed]

Thanks for all the replies. So, what's the verdict? Air or nitrogen? I think I will stick with air since you have to pay for the nitrogen and it seems not to be much if any better and it not easily available.

FWIW I think that sort of reasoning could have been done without a thread honestly, another reason I was steering clear...

[WarpSpeed]

Since I bought a new set of tires and was able to get the nitrogen fill thrown in with the deal, I couldn't lose. If the nitrogen would have proven no better than air, I would have just topped them off with air. Is it better? All four of my tires have the same pressure now as when they were filled months ago. Maybe they would have been the same with air, Who knows. The nitrogen fill certainly doesn't hurt anything.

Not likely....

[thunder30101]

Why not likely ? Nitrogen in your CAR TIRES is just snake oil my friend, do you actually think tires have permeable pores that leak O2 molecules on a scale large enough to affect air pressure ??? Tires lose air between the rim and tire bead plain and simple when you hit curbs(kerbs) and potholes, not from pores lol, it doesnt matter what the makeup of that air is. I just had a flat on my car the spare in the trunk had the same 32 psi in it when i checked it for a trip 6 months ago, wonder why ? If the nitrogen fill is free why not ? but to claim nitrogen has some special property useful in CAR TIRES is plain BS.

[transam]

Why not likely ? Nitrogen in your CAR TIRES is just snake oil my friend, do you actually think tires have permeable pores that leak O2 molecules on a scale large enough to affect air pressure ??? Tires lose air between the rim and tire bead plain and simple when you hit curbs(kerbs) and potholes, not from pores lol, it doesnt matter what the makeup of that air is. I just had a flat on my car the spare in the trunk had the same 32 psi in it when i checked it for a trip 6 months ago, wonder why ? If the nitrogen fill is free why not ? but to claim nitrogen has some special property useful in CAR TIRES is plain BS.

Tend to agree, Nitrogen is for special applications not necessary on a street car cos once use N you must always top up with it.

Aeroplanes use it cos moisture in air inflated tyres would freeze at high altitude and race cars use it to waylay tyre pressure variation with extreme tyre temperature variations.

[Spaniel]

Thanks for all the replies. So, what's the verdict? Air or nitrogen? I think I will stick with air since you have to pay for the nitrogen and it seems not to be much if any better and it not easily available.

FWIW I think that sort of reasoning could have been done without a thread honestly, another reason I was steering clear...

Well you didn't steer to clear as you made 3 posts to the question. Thanks for your input.

[transam]

Thanks for all the replies. So, what's the verdict? Air or nitrogen? I think I will stick with air since you have to pay for the nitrogen and it seems not to be much if any better and it not easily available.

FWIW I think that sort of reasoning could have been done without a thread honestly, another reason I was steering clear...

Well you didn't steer to clear as you made 3 posts to the question. Thanks for your input.

[Kwasaki]

Thanks for all the replies. So, what's the verdict? Air or nitrogen? I think I will stick with air since you have to pay for the nitrogen and it seems not to be much if any better and it not easily available.

FWIW I think that sort of reasoning could have been done without a thread honestly, another reason I was steering clear...

Well you didn't steer to clear as you made 3 posts to the question. Thanks for your input.

I don't get sometimes when people start making comments about nitrogen in tyres, if they talk against it they have obviously never tried it.

I was introduced to nitrogen when I bought tyres from ' Cockpit ' the truck held constance pressure for months, when taking it for a service a couple of months later they were within 1psi, they can be checked at any 'Cockpit' outlet for free for the life of the tyres.

My Mrs little car I was pumping air every week, I took to ' Cockpit ' they took the wheels off cleaned the rims and tyres refitted and gassed them up charged me 300bath.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating you can throw as much science at it as much as you like, nitrogen is better than air full stop.

[katabeachbum]

Thanks for all the replies. So, what's the verdict? Air or nitrogen? I think I will stick with air since you have to pay for the nitrogen and it seems not to be much if any better and it not easily available.

FWIW I think that sort of reasoning could have been done without a thread honestly, another reason I was steering clear...

Well you didn't steer to clear as you made 3 posts to the question. Thanks for your input.

I don't get sometimes when people start making comments about nitrogen in tyres, if they talk against it they have obviously never tried it.

I was introduced to nitrogen when I bought tyres from ' Cockpit ' the truck held constance pressure for months, when taking it for a service a couple of months later they were within 1psi, they can be checked at any 'Cockpit' outlet for free for the life of the tyres.

My Mrs little car I was pumping air every week, I took to ' Cockpit ' they took the wheels off cleaned the rims and tyres refitted and gassed them up charged me 300bath.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating you can throw as much science at it as much as you like, nitrogen is better than air full stop.

and bored of loosing 1-2 Ibs a week on all my Enkei and tubeless (car, suv, pickup and bikes), I will replace with nitro on a couple of bikes and let you know if I can unplug my airkompressor

[transam]

Considering where we live and stuff we have to deal with , l think of the UK and l never heard of Nitrogen in tyres, even with all my drag race chums, NEVER did l hear about N in tyres, l think a bit OTT here.

[Semper]

katabeachbum.

I will replace with nitro on a couple of bikes and let you know if I can unplug my airkompressor

If your compressor don't supply nitro, I think you can safely unplug it.

[WarpSpeed]

Why not likely ? Nitrogen in your CAR TIRES is just snake oil my friend, do you actually think tires have permeable pores that leak O2 molecules on a scale large enough to affect air pressure ??? Tires lose air between the rim and tire bead plain and simple when you hit curbs(kerbs) and potholes, not from pores lol, it doesnt matter what the makeup of that air is. I just had a flat on my car the spare in the trunk had the same 32 psi in it when i checked it for a trip 6 months ago, wonder why ? If the nitrogen fill is free why not ? but to claim nitrogen has some special property useful in CAR TIRES is plain BS.

Trust me.............Or not, I've forgotten more about tire pressures and nitrogen versus regular air then you will ever know, I'm just not interested in debating the reasons with novices.. Sometimes you just have to let people bang their own head against the wall and watch with amusement from a distance..

But FYI I never said anything about O2 molecules and their comparison in molecular size to Nitrogen molecules that's others argument, nor anything about them leaching through any rubber or metal... To refresh, I mentioned the moisture content and the rest is too deep for most to understand as has been proven in previous conversations about same, so now I'm opting to be a spectator instead...

Edited June 26, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

Thanks for all the replies. So, what's the verdict? Air or nitrogen? I think I will stick with air since you have to pay for the nitrogen and it seems not to be much if any better and it not easily available.

FWIW I think that sort of reasoning could have been done without a thread honestly, another reason I was steering clear...

Well you didn't steer to clear as you made 3 posts to the question. Thanks for your input.

Posts yes, arguments with novices, no..

[Semper]

Why not likely ? Nitrogen in your CAR TIRES is just snake oil my friend, do you actually think tires have permeable pores that leak O2 molecules on a scale large enough to affect air pressure ??? Tires lose air between the rim and tire bead plain and simple when you hit curbs(kerbs) and potholes, not from pores lol, it doesnt matter what the makeup of that air is. I just had a flat on my car the spare in the trunk had the same 32 psi in it when i checked it for a trip 6 months ago, wonder why ? If the nitrogen fill is free why not ? but to claim nitrogen has some special property useful in CAR TIRES is plain BS.

Tend to agree, Nitrogen is for special applications not necessary on a street car cos once use N you must always top up with it.

Aeroplanes use it cos moisture in air inflated tyres would freeze at high altitude and race cars use it to waylay tyre pressure variation with extreme tyre temperature variations.

And don't forget, checking the air pressure is the only maintenance we old expats can do ourself.

[WarpSpeed]

Thanks for all the replies. So, what's the verdict? Air or nitrogen? I think I will stick with air since you have to pay for the nitrogen and it seems not to be much if any better and it not easily available.

FWIW I think that sort of reasoning could have been done without a thread honestly, another reason I was steering clear...

Well you didn't steer to clear as you made 3 posts to the question. Thanks for your input.

I don't get sometimes when people start making comments about nitrogen in tyres, if they talk against it they have obviously never tried it.

I was introduced to nitrogen when I bought tyres from ' Cockpit ' the truck held constance pressure for months, when taking it for a service a couple of months later they were within 1psi, they can be checked at any 'Cockpit' outlet for free for the life of the tyres.

My Mrs little car I was pumping air every week, I took to ' Cockpit ' they took the wheels off cleaned the rims and tyres refitted and gassed them up charged me 300bath.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating you can throw as much science at it as much as you like, nitrogen is better than air full stop.

Very true KW..

[Jangot]

Moisture can be easily removed from compressed air.

The primary reason that aircraft tyres are inflated with nitrogen (mandated by Airworthiness Directive FAA AD 87-08-09) is that, because large commercial aircraft have tyre pressures in the order of 200psi, the oxygen content in air inflated tyres can cause explosions when other factors such as grease or sudden pressure change or overheated brakes occur.

Although moisture content and pressure stability etc are also factors.

J.

[WarpSpeed]

Moisture can be easily removed from compressed air.

The primary reason that aircraft tyres are inflated with nitrogen (mandated by Airworthiness Directive FAA AD 87-08-09) is that, because large commercial aircraft have tyre pressures in the order of 200psi, the oxygen content in air inflated tyres can cause explosions when other factors such as grease or sudden pressure change or overheated brakes occur.

Although moisture content and pressure stability etc are also factors.

J.

Not only factors, but moisture is NOT removed from pump air making it not practical in application nor relevant for the purposes of this discussion.