Banking For Americans In Thailand 101

[55Jay]

It might not have been Bangkok Bank. It would have had to have been a swift wire transfer to Kasikorn Bank then because they are the only two I use.

I did a couple wires via BB New York into my local BB account. No calls.

[55Jay]

I just submitted some tax reform comments to the Camp/Baucus Tax Reform Gang in DC. FWIW, probably not much.

Afterward, came across a DoS form letter you can get if you get turned down for a US bank account because of the Patriot Act.

http://americansabroad.org/issues/banking/banking-and-the-patriot-act-update/

When I moved to LOS and changed my mailing addresses to here, Capital 1 and Charles Schwab came back with immediate account closure emails because of the foreign address. They didn't cite the Patriot Act or any other regulation or law just said they could not do business internationally. I was so taken aback by the rapid escalation that I didn't dig my heels in on principle, and just changed mailing add to the physical US add I used to open the accounts (a family member's house) in order to keep the accounts.

No foreign address issues from Navy Federal Credit Union or USAA.

[vagabond48]

When Schwab closed my accounts ABRUPTLY, I spoke to a number customer reps and supervisors but none could tell me why they shut me down. I did have a US address on file. I am waiting for my brother to email the letter they mailed me to see what explanation if any they gave.

[vagabond48]

Anyone have the Bank of America Visa CC which was transferred from Schwab Bank when they closed their credit card business?

Has anyone changed their country of residency to Thailand?

I am planning a trip to the US and will be renting a car for 3 to 4 weeks. I want to take advantage of their Auto Rental Collision Damage Waiver.

The main problem is Visa only covers you for 15 days if your country of residency is the USA and if it's not, they cover you for 30 days.

Right now the CC shows that my Residency is the USA but in actuality it is Thailand.

I am concerned about changing the country of residency for fear that they will cancel the card because initially the card came from Schwab who did not allow an international address. Perhaps it might be a breach of contract.

I did contact a BOA rep about changing the residency. She came back 1st with yes answer, then put me on hold and came back with no and put me on hold again and came back finally with yes. I plan to call several more times but was hoping a few of you may have changed this particular card residency to Thailand.

Btw, I am not referring to changing the mailing address.

[55Jay]

Anyone have the Bank of America Visa CC which was transferred from Schwab Bank when they closed their credit card business?

Has anyone changed their country of residency to Thailand?

I am planning a trip to the US and will be renting a car for 3 to 4 weeks. I want to take advantage of their Auto Rental Collision Damage Waiver.

The main problem is Visa only covers you for 15 days if your country of residency is the USA and if it's not, they cover you for 30 days.

Right now the CC shows that my Residency is the USA but in actuality it is Thailand.

I am concerned about changing the country of residency for fear that they will cancel the card because initially the card came from Schwab who did not allow an international address. Perhaps it might be a breach of contract.

I did contact a BOA rep about changing the residency. She came back 1st with yes answer, then put me on hold and came back with no and put me on hold again and came back finally with yes. I plan to call several more times but was hoping a few of you may have changed this particular card residency to Thailand.

Btw, I am not referring to changing the mailing address.

Not here, but would be interested to hear your feedback on the final result.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

When I moved to LOS and changed my mailing addresses to here, Capital 1 and Charles Schwab came back with immediate account closure emails because of the foreign address. They didn't cite the Patriot Act or any other regulation or law just said they could not do business internationally.

That situation is one of the reasons, based on similar past experiences of members here, that I've always recommended keeping a U.S. address of record for U.S. bank accounts.

Some institutions may not mind an international address. But others do.. And you won't find out which ones mind until you receive their account closure notification.

Cap One, I know, is very finicky about non U.S. addresses. But I'm surprised you had that experience with Schwab, as they have international operations, and I thought I've recalled other members here saying they've used a Thailand address at some point once their Schwab account was already established.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I am planning a trip to the US and will be renting a car for 3 to 4 weeks. I want to take advantage of their Auto Rental Collision Damage Waiver.

The main problem is Visa only covers you for 15 days if your country of residency is the USA and if it's not, they cover you for 30 days.

Right now the CC shows that my Residency is the USA but in actuality it is Thailand.

Vagabond, is the 15/30 day issue with VISA's card rental coverage based on the card holder's country of residence, or based on in what country the cardholder is renting the car?

[Pib]

When I moved to LOS and changed my mailing addresses to here, Capital 1 and Charles Schwab came back with immediate account closure emails because of the foreign address. They didn't cite the Patriot Act or any other regulation or law just said they could not do business internationally.

That situation is one of the reasons, based on similar past experiences of members here, that I've always recommended keeping a U.S. address of record for U.S. bank accounts.

Some institutions may not mind an international address. But others do.. And you won't find out which ones mind until you receive their account closure notification.

Cap One, I know, is very finicky about non U.S. addresses. But I'm surprised you had that experience with Schwab, as they have international operations, and I thought I've recalled other members here saying they've used a Thailand address at some point once their Schwab account was already established.

In this Visa Link I see what you are talking about under the "What is covered and What is not covered" questions where they make a distinction between coverage in your country of residence or elsewhere. Expect it's going to boil down to the country of residence you have on file with Visa/the card issuing bank. But hey, maybe the Visa claim form asks you to enter your country of residence and they go by whatever you enter; however, if the country you enter is different from what they got on file then I expect some questions may arise. But something in my gut tells me if you have a U.S. Visa card which means you have the card issued from a U.S. bank/credit card company that usually requires a U.S. residence for approval of the card (although you can have an foreign mailing address), that you country of residence is going to be considered the U.S.

I expect the country of residence has the lower number of days coverage since many people would have auto insurance for their personal car and usually this insurance also provides some rental coverage within the country.

[vagabond48]

Vagabond, is the 15/30 day issue with VISA's card rental coverage based on the card holder's country of residence, or based on in what country the cardholder is renting the car?

As I understand it, if you rent a car outside of your country of residence, you will be covered for 30 days. This is regardless of your nationality.

So, if you are a resident of country A and visit and rent in country B, you will get 30 days of CDW coverages. Following that line, I also found out that if you are renting in country B and have no private auto insurance coverage for that country, then Visa provides you with primary CDW coverage rather than secondary coverage which would only cover your deductibles.

[zeekgarcia]

I am still confused about which ATM / Debit card can still be used at AEON ATM's since they are the only way to obtain cash without paying the 150-180THB Thai Bankers Association foreign ATM fee

I was perfectly happy with E*trade and their $1000 limit at AEON until E*trad Bank started charging the 1% currency conversion fee (as did USAA Bank)

I then opened a Capital One Bank account because they didn't charge the 1% currency conversion fee at AEON but then they switched networks so my card would not longer work at AEON. Am very happy with Cap Ones Rewards Credit Card with their no currency conversion fee and points but that doesn't solve the AEON cash restriction

Was going to open a Schwab account but vagabond48's post above has me worried that they (Schwab) are moving in the direction of tightening up their ATM / Debit card issuance

Which seems to me that the only US Bank ATM/ Debit card that can be used at AEON is the one issued by State Farm Bank

Is this correct or is there another US Bank that is accepted by AEON and has no currency conversion fee ?

From my research and emails to state farm they do charge the international currency conversion fee. If someone finds out different please let me know because Charles Schwab will not let me open an account unless I go to one of their offices in the USA.

[zeekgarcia]

I am still confused about which ATM / Debit card can still be used at AEON ATM's since they are the only way to obtain cash without paying the 150-180THB Thai Bankers Association foreign ATM fee

I was perfectly happy with E*trade and their $1000 limit at AEON until E*trad Bank started charging the 1% currency conversion fee (as did USAA Bank)

I then opened a Capital One Bank account because they didn't charge the 1% currency conversion fee at AEON but then they switched networks so my card would not longer work at AEON. Am very happy with Cap Ones Rewards Credit Card with their no currency conversion fee and points but that doesn't solve the AEON cash restriction

Was going to open a Schwab account but vagabond48's post above has me worried that they (Schwab) are moving in the direction of tightening up their ATM / Debit card issuance

Which seems to me that the only US Bank ATM/ Debit card that can be used at AEON is the one issued by State Farm Bank

Is this correct or is there another US Bank that is accepted by AEON and has no currency conversion fee ?

From my research and emails to state farm they do charge the international currency conversion fee. If someone finds out different please let me know because Charles Schwab will not let me open an account unless I go to one of their offices in the USA.

[zeekgarcia]

Re Pentagon Federal, I think there probably was some confusion, at one end or the other, between their credit cards vs. their debit card.

A while back, PFCU changed their policy to make at least most of their credit cards not have any foreign currency fee for purchases.

But, I don't believe they ever made that same change for ATM withdrawals using their debit card.

More broadly, there are many U.S.-based debit cards that don't charge foreign currency fees...

The issue is.... a lot of them are local or state-based accounts. The list of fee free cards is narrower when you're talking about nationally available cards.

For starters, take a look at the two websites I posted above in Post #265 for lists of the major banks and CU's and their fee policies.

Meanwhile, FWIW, despite Vagabond's unfortunate experience above, I have heard or seen any indication of any kind of broad change in policy or approach by Charles Schwab and their cards. And, as he points out, the Fidelity brokerage also offers a similar fee-free card.

One thing Vagabond.... it wasn't clear from your earlier post.... were you using/keeping money in Schwab's linked brokerage account. Or did you have an empty brokerage account and just using their checking account only?

I ask because, at some point, it wouldn't surprise me if Schwab began to trim accountholders who aren't using their brokerage account since, after all, Schwab is principally a brokerage firm. As I said, I haven't heard any reports of them doing that. But if there was a reason for them to cancel an account, I'd imagine that could be at the top of the list of potential reasons, particularly after a number of years of having the account.

Fidelity charges the currency conversion fee also

[zeekgarcia]

That was my recollection too re the problem with Cap One and AEON ATMs....

I never had a Cap One VISA or MC logo debit card. But I did have a Cap One ATM card (NO VISA or MC logo) associated with a savings account that stopped working with AEON once Cap One made their card network change to Cirrus.

So, AFAIK, any U.S. bank debit card that has a VISA or MC logo on the front ought to work perfectly fine with AEON ATMs. Then it's just a matter of finding a preferrably VISA logo debit card from an institution that a) doesn't charge its own foreign ATM withdrawal fee and 2] doesn't charge a foreign currency fee. And there are relatively lots of those.

LSM, I think you're over-stating the extent of the problem with card usability with AEON ATMs. These days, VISA and MC logo debit cards are far more common and prevalent that non-logo ATM only cards like the Cap One one. And maybe I'm getting old here, but I don't recall hearing of folks having problems using VISA logo debit cards at AEON ATMs...

It will be a good day if you can tell me the specific names of the institutions that do not charge 1 & 2 in your statement "then it's just a matter of finding a preferrably VISA logo debit card from an institution that a) doesn't charge its own foreign ATM withdrawal fee and 2] doesn't charge a foreign currency fee. And there are relatively lots of those." { I added the underline and the bold part}

Tried opening account at Charles Schwab but they did not because their computers could tell I was in Thailand even with me explaining to them that my residence is in the USA and gave them that address.

USAA, State Farm, Fidelity all charge a currency conversion fee based on their sites and my emails and calls to them.

[Pib]

I am still confused about which ATM / Debit card can still be used at AEON ATM's since they are the only way to obtain cash without paying the 150-180THB Thai Bankers Association  foreign ATM  fee

 

I was perfectly happy with E*trade and their $1000 limit at AEON until E*trad Bank started charging the 1% currency conversion fee (as did USAA Bank)

 

I then opened a Capital One Bank account because they didn't charge the 1% currency conversion fee at AEON but then they switched networks so my card would not longer work at AEON.  Am very happy with Cap Ones Rewards Credit Card with their no currency conversion fee and points but that doesn't solve the AEON cash restriction

 

Was going to open a Schwab account but vagabond48's post above has me worried that they (Schwab)  are moving in the direction of tightening up their ATM / Debit card issuance

 

Which seems to me that the only US Bank ATM/ Debit card that can be used at AEON  is the one issued by State Farm Bank

 

Is this correct or is there another US Bank that is accepted by AEON and has no currency conversion fee  ?

 

From my research and emails to state farm they do charge the international currency conversion fee. If someone finds out different please let me know because Charles Schwab will not let me open an account unless I go to one of their offices in the USA.

St Farm debt card does not charge a fee on ATM withdrawals but I think they fo for POS transactions. I use my St Farm card around once a week in AEON ATMs...have never been charged a FTF by St Farm.

Sent from my Samsung S4 (GT-I9500)

[vagabond48]

As I and other have written, even though Fidelity reps say that there is a 1% foreign exchange fee (FEF), they do not pass it on to you. I have withdrawn money from ATM and shorty after or before purchased items at the mall using my BOA CC which does not charge a 1% FEF and the CC pending exchange rate was very close or the same. I track my financial transactions on a spreadsheet so I can see right away what the exchange rate is.

Edited July 3, 2013 by vagabond48

[Pib]

I am still confused about which ATM / Debit card can still be used at AEON ATM's since they are the only way to obtain cash without paying the 150-180THB Thai Bankers Association foreign ATM fee

I was perfectly happy with E*trade and their $1000 limit at AEON until E*trad Bank started charging the 1% currency conversion fee (as did USAA Bank)

I then opened a Capital One Bank account because they didn't charge the 1% currency conversion fee at AEON but then they switched networks so my card would not longer work at AEON. Am very happy with Cap Ones Rewards Credit Card with their no currency conversion fee and points but that doesn't solve the AEON cash restriction

Was going to open a Schwab account but vagabond48's post above has me worried that they (Schwab) are moving in the direction of tightening up their ATM / Debit card issuance

Which seems to me that the only US Bank ATM/ Debit card that can be used at AEON is the one issued by State Farm Bank

Is this correct or is there another US Bank that is accepted by AEON and has no currency conversion fee ?

From my research and emails to state farm they do charge the international currency conversion fee. If someone finds out different please let me know because Charles Schwab will not let me open an account unless I go to one of their offices in the USA.

St Farm debt card does not charge a fee on ATM withdrawals but I think they fo for POS transactions. I use my St Farm card around once a week in AEON ATMs...have never been charged a FTF by St Farm.

Sent from my Samsung S4 (GT-I9500)

Although I can no longer find on the St Farm web site they say they do not charge a foreign transaction fee, they basically say it by stating they will not charge you for using ATMs off their network and will also reimburse any such fee X amount per month. See this St Farm Link in the ATM area.

Now some websites like flyerguide.com have pages which reflect what debit/credit cards foreign transaction fees the webpages are not always accurate as they many times the info reflected relies too much on individual inputs which can be wrong. I've watched the flyerguide web site oscillate on info listed next to various banks like St Farm...like the website says St Farm charges a 1% FTF...a month ago the website said St Farm didn't with a note code it was verified by calling the bank...I see that note code is now gone. Anyway, St Farm does not charge a foreign transaction fee like the St Farm link mentioned above beats around the bush at; not sure about a POS FTF as I've never used the card that way...I only use it for ATM withdrawals.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

It will be a good day if you can tell me the specific names of the institutions that do not charge 1 & 2 in your statement "then it's just a matter of finding a preferrably VISA logo debit card from an institution that a) doesn't charge its own foreign ATM withdrawal fee and 2] doesn't charge a foreign currency fee. And there are relatively lots of those." { I added the underline and the bold part}

Tried opening account at Charles Schwab but they did not because their computers could tell I was in Thailand even with me explaining to them that my residence is in the USA and gave them that address.

USAA, State Farm, Fidelity all charge a currency conversion fee based on their sites and my emails and calls to them.

Some of the answers to your question are provided above by Vagabond and Pib, who are very familiar with those particular cards.

USAA has charged a 1% FCF for some time... I don't recall anyone here anytime recently saying they didn't.

Here's a link for the State Farm account:

http://www.statefarm.com/bank/checking/standard-checking.asp

Some of the guides on these things are now saying that State Farm charges a 1% FCF on ATM withdrawals and POS purchases. But I can't find any mention of that on the State Farm website, and some members here who have the State Farm card report otherwise.

As for Schwab, because their account is so useful and attractive to have, you might consider using a U.S.-location VPN or proxy when you try to sign up for an online account, and see if that changes your outcome...or wait until the next time you're back in the U.S. for a visit. There are a lot of different U.S. institutions that don't charge a foreign currency fee, but fewer that don't charge a FCF fee AND do reimburse other banks' ATM fees like Schwab does.

Among some others:

Stanford FCU in California, which is open to anyone in the U.S., reportedly has no foreign currency fees:

https://www.sfcu.org/personal/checking/compare

Service Credit Union, which is open to anyone with active or former military in their family, charges only the 1% card network fee on foreign ATM withdrawals, but then rebates those at month's end for qualifying accounts.

https://www.servicecu.org/civilian/content/Top_checking.asp?

https://www.servicecu.org/civilian/content/FreeAtms.asp?

Bank of Internet is another that reportedly doesn't charge any FCF, though they no longer reimburse foreign ATM use fees (the 150 or 180 baht per withdrawal amounts charged by the Thai banks).

https://www.bankofinternet.com/personal-banking/checking/rewards-checking

And, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, there are A LOT of so-called "rewards checking" accounts offered by smaller banks and CU's -- often only to people with addresses in their field of service area -- that charge no FCF and reimburse other banks' ATM fees, sometimes domestic only, sometimes international as well... So for those, it depends on the state and area where you maintain an address.

You can find more info about those here below... though sometimes it will require more checking with the individual institution, as to their service area and how they handle foreign transactions -- since the latter usually isn't the thing most U.S. banks think about listing/advertising on their websites for domestic customers. Do a state-specific search for your residence using these resources below to see about local offers.

http://www.depositaccounts.com/checking/reward-checking-accounts.html#P|26|1000|false,true,true,true,false,true,false|US|Apy%20desc

https://www.kasasa.com/

https://www.checkingfinder.com/

BTW, these were posted above... but these are two broad guides to the foreign transaction fees charges or not charged by a lot of national banks. As Pib noted above, not always entirely accurate or up-to-date, but a good reference starting point.

http://money.wikia.com/wiki/Foreign_Exchange_fees_on_bank_cards_and_credit_cards

http://flyerguide.com/wiki/index.php/Credit/Debit/ATM_Cards_and_Foreign_Exchange#ATM.2FCheck.2FDebit_Cards_.28used_at_ATM.29

Edited July 3, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Ever since Capital One acquired the US operations of ING Direct, it appears they've changed some things. What used to be ING Direct has now been rebranded as Capital One 360.

I'm pretty sure Capital One used to offer VISA logo debit cards with some checking accounts, as well as regular ATM-only cards with a Cirrus logo for their money market accounts.

I believe the kind of accounts you can access via Capital One online still depends on what zip code you enter for your residence. If you enter a zip code for an area where they don't have branches, I believe you'll just get the Capital One 360 offerings.

But if you enter a zip code for an area where they do have physical bank branches, you'll get a broader arrange of accounts that apparently can also be opened online. For example, when I pick a zip code in Texas where Cap One has branches, I see checking options for Rewards Checking, Premier Rewards Checking and High Yield Free Checking, in addition to their 360 checking.

Unfortunately, all of those checking accounts now appear to come with MC logo cards, according to their website. I didn't see a single VISA logo debit card offered.

But when I enter a zip code for an area in California where they don't have physical branches, I get automatically referred to Capital One 360, and they seem to only have MC logo debit cards for their 360 checking accounts opened thru that route.

Re that MC logo debit card, it has no foreign currency fees from Cap One, but the MC exchange rate will be a bit lower than a comparable VISA debit card.

Other particulars:

• 360 Checking Card ATM withdrawal: $1,000 per day
• 360 Checking Card purchases using your PIN: $5,000 per day
• 360 Checking Card purchases not using your PIN: $5,000 per day

https://home.capitalone360.com/online-checking-account

However, I was surprised by one thing: When I looked at the details of Cap One's Rewards Checking and Premier Rewards Checking account, I was really surprised to see that Cap One has added foreign currency fees for ATM withdrawals from those two accounts -- perhaps to offset the rewards features. That's strange, because Capital One for many years has generally avoided FCFs for their debit and credit cards. I couldn't tell/see whether they also have added FCF's for debit card purchases.

Here's the details of the charges for those two accounts (see the bottom of each image) -- $2 fee plus 3% for foreign country ATM withdrawals:

Rewards Checking.jpg

Premier Rewards.jpg

So those two certainly would be accounts to avoid, regardless.

I wrote this post a bit earlier in the thread trying to update the overview of Capital One's checking accounts as they relate to FCF and ATM fees.

Basically, what's now Capital One 360 is kind of what used to be ING Direct U.S., but with the difference that Cap One eliminated foreign currency fees for its former ING/now Cap One 360 checking account during the transition. The debit card associated with the account, which can be opened online, is a MasterCard, so it's exchange rate would be a bit lower than a comparable VISA card. But as long as you're avoiding a 1-3% FCF, that's a tradeoff I can live with.

The only other issue would be about whether the MC debit card that comes with the Capital One 360 checking account would work with AEON's no-fee ATMs in Thailand.

While we've pretty well confirmed that Capital One's straight ATM cards, those without a VISA or MC logo such as those that come with Cap One's money market account, won't work with AEON, I have no reason to think that a regular Cap One MasterCard debit card would have any problem with AEON ATMs -- unless anyone here can report otherwise.

https://home.capitalone360.com/online-checking-account

So I'm believing that the Cap One 360 checking account and its MC debit card would be another no FCF option for Thailand -- as long as you open the account with a U.S. address.

If you use your Card for a foreign transaction (any transaction made in a foreign currency or that MasterCard classifies as a cross-border transaction), we won't charge you anything. However, MasterCard may charge as part of converting the purchase to U.S. Dollars.

Are there any transaction limits on my 360 Checking Card?

Yes. The limit depends on how you use the Card.

• ATM withdrawal: $1,000 per day
• Purchases made using your PIN: $5,000 per day
• Purchases made not using your PIN: $5,000 per day

https://helpcenter.capitalone360.com/bnk/Topic.aspx?category=EOCARD1#FBNKEOCD09

Edited July 3, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

Yea, some of the online guides are not completely accurate since they rely a lot of personal input/feedback and some people have a tendency to get fees confused....they might label a fee a foreign transaction fee charged by their bank when in fact it was a fee charged by the foreign ATM like the Bt150 fee charged by Thai banks on foreign Visa cards. How many times have we read posts where someone who transferred money from their home country bank and then blame the local Thai bank for charging a high funds receipt/conversion fee or giving a bad exchange rate when in fact it was the person's home country Sending bank (or its intermediary bank) which had a high sending fee or the person allowed the Sending bank to convert to Thai baht before sending which got them a crappy/low exchange (but made a nice little indirect/hidden fee for the Sending bank). And how many times I've sent people say they were not charged any fees by Bangkok Bank when they ACHed over some funds, have the Social Security payment go directly to Bangkok Bank, etc....you give them the correct fee info/web links that show the Bangkok Bank New York branch and local Bangkok Bank fees....most never respond maybe because they are a little embarrassed ....others do respond with a thanks saying they just hadn't noticed the fees for whatever reason but when they looked closer there were indeed fees.

But for sure my Schwab and St Farm debit cards do not charge any foreign transaction fees for ATM withdrawals....the dollar charge that hits my accounts matches exactly to the third decimal point the Visa exchange rate for a 0% bank fee card. I check often just to ensure the correct charge hits my accounts and to confirm no fees or reduced exchange rate is being applied.

Yea, use the online guides as a starting point for your own personal research to individual banks websites and calls to their customer service reps...but if you are like me you almost hate calling customer service reps since the answers can vary depending on who you end up talking to....that's why I want to see it in writing on their website somewhere....and all to often it can take some digging to find the info. Speaking of digging for info on financial websites, it's my humble opinion that since CapOne and ING merged (well actually CapOne bought ING) that the new and improved CapOne 360 web site is not nearly as straight forth regarding fees for various things....maybe it's just me...I don't have any CapOne bank accounts but I sure use a couple of their no foreign transaction fee credit cards.

Debit and credit cards are out there than don't charge foreign transaction cards...and as I've recommended before, if possible it's best a person gets the card(s) while they still have a U.S. residence as it can get touch-and-go in opening an account/getting a card after you move overseas...it will vary from individual to individual has to how much of a problem this will be (and sometimes dumb luck seems to apply) but it generally creates a problem for many. While the card products of certain banks/credit card companies may meet all you needs "while still living in the U.S. where you never do a foreign transaction," when you end up traveling a lot/living overseas those products that were just fine in the U.S. ain't so fine for use overseas due to fees. That's what happened to me, but I have since recovered by switching banks/credit card companies.

So, shop around, find the best bank and credit card deals...and don't get stuck in the mind trap of the bank has to have a nearby brick-and-mortar facility you can walk into. Heck, most of the banks I been with over the last 10-15 years I never set foot in nor did they have a branch anywhere close to where I lived...I would always signup online. I pretty much treat banks and credit card products like auto insurance...that is, I periodically compare prices/benefits and periodically I end up changing. Banks/credit card companies seem to go through multiyear cycles of really offering good products/services and then they slide into offering not-so-good/pricey products/services. For many, I know I'm preaching to the choir.

[Pib]

The only other issue would be about whether the MC debit card that comes with the Capital One 360 checking account would work with AEON's no-fee ATMs in Thailand.

While we've pretty well confirmed that Capital One's straight ATM cards, those without a VISA or MC logo such as those that come with Cap One's money market account, won't work with AEON, I have no reason to think that a regular Cap One MasterCard debit card would have any problem with AEON ATMs -- unless anyone here can report otherwise.

Regarding those CapOne straight ATM cards, I just wonder if they would work in AEON ATMs now. The reason I say that is because if remember the issue correctly those CapOne straight ATM cards only worked through the CIRRUS network and AEON ATMs didn't support CIRRUS. A few days ago I was using an AEON ATM in the Bang Yai Big C in Nonthaburi and this AEON ATM showed the CIRRUS network emblem along with the many other network emblems like Visa, MasterCard, etc...etc..etc. This was a brand new combo ATM and Cash Deposit Machine (CDM)...I had never seen another AEON ATM that looked as advanced. So, maybe AEON now supports the CIRRUS network also? I don't know...I just saw the CIRRUS emblem on this ATM and don't remember seeing it on other older AEON ATMs I use but if I remember I will try to remember to look next time....I may find out the CIRRUS emblem is on them also and I just hadn't noticed....too much Chang beer will do that to you.

[JimGant]

So I'm believing that the Cap One 360 checking account and its MC debit card would be another no FCF option for Thailand -- as long as you open the account with a U.S. address.

If you use your Card for a foreign transaction (any transaction made in a foreign currency or that MasterCard classifies as a cross-border transaction), we won't charge you anything. However, MasterCard may charge as part of converting the purchase to U.S. Dollars.

The last line in the quote sounds like they, indeed, pass on the MC 1% foreign transaction fee, i.e., the don't "eat it," as does Schwab.

In this, they're like USAA -- and others -- that don't charge any foreign transaction fees themselves. But, do, indeed, pass on the network 1% fee -- and so cannot be considered "feeless" from a practical sense.

Edited July 3, 2013 by JimGant

[Pib]

So I'm believing that the Cap One 360 checking account and its MC debit card would be another no FCF option for Thailand -- as long as you open the account with a U.S. address.

If you use your Card for a foreign transaction (any transaction made in a foreign currency or that MasterCard classifies as a cross-border transaction), we won't charge you anything. However, MasterCard may charge as part of converting the purchase to U.S. Dollars.

The last line in the quote sounds like they, indeed, pass on the MC 1% foreign transaction fee, i.e., the don't "eat it," as does Schwab.

If true this is another example of "wording" which could be considered deceptive or intentionally being vague in clearly answering a customer's question of will I be hit with any foreign transaction fee(s) when using the card outside the U.S. (referred to a cross-border transaction by CapOne...using new/different terminology is always a good way to confuse the customer...they use to use the foreign transaction fee terminology).

CapOne would know whether Mastecard is going to charge a fee and whether CapOne would eat the fee or not...I'm sure that is spelled out to the Nth degree in the contract between CapOne and MasterCard. This kinda supports my earlier remark in another post where the CapOne web site does not seem as straight forth after their integration of ING into the mix.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I guess part of this comes down to this question. When we see the daily exchange rates posted on the VISA and MC corporate web sites, are those rates ones that already have deducted the card networks' 1% or less charge? Or the 1%, if charged, gets deducted from those rates only at the transaction level?

I've got one VISA debit card that specifically charges a 1% FCF and breaks it out separately for each transaction. I believe that they're charging the card network fee....not adding one of their own.

I've got another VISA debit card that also separately charges the 1% and breaks it out separately for each transaction. But for that account, I get reimbursed by the CU for all of the 1%s at months end. That CU specifically calls those "Visa® International Service Assessment (ISA) fees".

But for all my other current VISA debit cards including Schwab (none of them from the mega US banks) and quite a few past ones, none of them separately charge any FCF fee... And their exchange rates usually are about .15 or so baht below the day's IER rate.

As for Cap One 360 checking, they're clearly not charging their own FCF, so that's a good thing, better than most or all of the other largest U.S. banks and their 3% or more fees.... How the Cap One 360 MC fee gets handled -- is it charged at all, charged separately or deducted from the exchange rate -- I think we're going to need an actual account holder to report.

Keep in mind, what the banks post on their websites and what they actually do on this subject (recalling E*Trade and Fidelity's past website language that differed from what they actually did with FCF) are not always the same.

Edited July 4, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

I guess part of this comes down to this question. When we see the daily exchange rates posted on the VISA and MC corporate web sites, are those rates ones that already have deducted the card networks' 1% or less charge? Or the 1%, if charged, gets deducted from those rates only at the transaction level?

I've got one VISA debit card that specifically charges a 1% FCF and breaks it out separately for each transaction. I believe that they're charging the card network fee....not adding one of their own.

I've got another VISA debit card that also separately charges the 1% and breaks it out separately for each transaction. But for that account, I get reimbursed by the CU for all of the 1%s at months end. That CU specifically calls those "Visa® International Service Assessment (ISA) fees".

But for all my other current VISA debit cards including Schwab (none of them from the mega US banks) and quite a few past ones, none of them separately charge any FCF fee... And their exchange rates usually are about .15 or so baht below the day's IER rate.

As for Cap One 360 checking, they're clearly not charging their own FCF, so that's a good thing, better than most or all of the other largest U.S. banks and their 3% or more fees.... How the Cap One 360 MC fee gets handled -- is it charged at all, charged separately or deducted from the exchange rate -- I think we're going to need an actual account holder to report.

Keep in mind, what the banks post on their websites and what they actually do on this subject (recalling E*Trade and Fidelity's past website language that differed from what they actually did with FCF) are not always the same.

My guess is the Visa exchange rate displayed on their exchange rates page "does not" include the 1% because their exchange rate is as you identified only slightly lower (around 0.15% lower) than the FOREX rate. To me, that confirms they are not cranking in their 1% transaction fee in the exchange rate they provide. See below Q&A cut and paste/quote

How does Visa calculate its rate?

Every day—except weekends, Memorial Day, Christmas Day and New Year's Day—Visa calculates the rate for the next day's transactions. The Visa rate is selected from a range of rates available in wholesale currency markets or the government-mandated rate in effect one day prior to the applicable central processing date. Visa makes this rate available to issuing banks, which may adjust the rate when billing cardholders by applying a foreign transaction fee. The rate Visa makes available to issuing banks may vary from the rate Visa itself receives. Most consumers find that using Visa is a convenient and cost-effective way to make purchases and obtain cash when traveling internationally.

When looking at the Q&As some ore on the Visa exchange rate page they specifically say they "do not" charge the customer or merchants a fee, but instead are paid by financial institutions using Visa's global network....and they say that fee will range in the 0.15% to 1.0% range...guess it depends on the contract between financial institutions and Visa. That tells me that Visa "does not" send along an extra 1% charge with each and every foreign transaction tagged specifically at the customer; however, your bank will get a charge for a foreign transaction linked to your card and then it's purely up to the bank if they pass that fee along to the customer...or pass along that fee plus extra piled on top...like how many banks seem to like to charge a 3% foreign transaction fee. Well, if the bank did get hit with a 1% charge from Visa (or maybe only 0.15%) for your foreign transaction then the bank added another 2 to 2.85% markup...nice little profit they are making. See below Q&A cut and paste/quote.

What is Visa’s fee structure for international transactions?

Visa Inc. does not assess any fees to cardholders or merchants. Visa applies International Service Assessment (ISA) fees ranging from 0.15 to 1 percent to its financial institution partners for their use of the global payment system.

The fees are paid by financial institutions on transactions that require the use of our global infrastructure. Since Visa does not assess any fees to cardholders or merchants, we have no involvement in financial institution pricing to cardholders or merchants. If financial institutions or merchants decide to assess a foreign transaction fee to their customers, they are required to provide details to their cardholders and consumers

Edit: Oh yea, and you can bet your card issuing bank on their website and Terms & Conditions are going to use words phrased in a way which makes the customer think Visa/MasterCard are the bad guys...the fee-hungry bad guys. When in fact it's the bank that is the real fee-hungry bad guy hitting a person with the 3% foreign transaction fee. Preaching to the choir I know.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Pib

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks Pib, for digging up that useful and informative information...

That's why I said... people ought to reserve judgment on Capital One 360's checking account until we hear/see direct from an account holder just how the foreign exchange is handled.

Cap One 360 clearly have said they're not charging their own FCF or ISA fee for that account, and we don't know what Cap One 360's deal is with MC...

Like the VISA info you quote above, the info I've seen from MC in the past similarly indicates the amount they charge to the card-issuing banks/CUs may vary from institution to institution, ranging from lows like the amount you cited UP TO 1% max amount.

Thus if we know Cap One 360's rate is going to be no higher than 1%, and possibly less, that already puts them ahead of most of the other larger U.S. banks.

I hope someone with a Cap One 360 checking account does post the details here, so we'll all know just how close or not it comes to being a fee-free account for those living abroad.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks Pib, for digging up that useful and informative information...

That's why I said... people ought to reserve judgment on Capital One 360's checking account until we hear/see direct from an account holder just how the foreign exchange is handled.

Cap One 360 clearly have said they're not charging their own FCF or ISA fee for that account, and we don't know what Cap One 360's deal is with MC...

Like the VISA info you quote above, the info I've seen from MC in the past similarly indicates the amount they charge to the card-issuing banks/CUs may vary from institution to institution, ranging from lows like the amount you cited UP TO 1% max amount.

Thus if we know Cap One 360's rate is going to be no higher than 1%, and possibly less, that already puts them ahead of most of the other larger U.S. banks.

I hope someone with a Cap One 360 checking account does post the details here, so we'll all know just how close or not it comes to being a fee-free account for those living abroad.

[vagabond48]

Bank of Internet which I no longer use to do ATM withdrawals here because they began charging a 2% FCF. Their reps have been told to tell customers that BOI is passing the 2% fee from Visa.

[Pib]

Bank of Internet which I no longer use to do ATM withdrawals here because they began charging a 2% FCF. Their reps have been told to tell customers that BOI is passing the 2% fee from Visa.

Good example...the bank tries to place the fault totally on the credit card network (i.e., Visa, MasterCard, etc) when in fact it's mostly a bank imposed fee especially if the bank is charging more than 1%. Unfortunately, probably 90% of their customers will believe the bank's misinformation.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Bank of Internet which I no longer use to do ATM withdrawals here because they began charging a 2% FCF. Their reps have been told to tell customers that BOI is passing the 2% fee from Visa.

I'm not aware there's any situation where VISA would be adding a 2% fee for anything.... But the info you report above is even more interesting considering the current language in BofI's Terms and Conditions re International Transactions:

Using your Card for International Transactions

If you use your ATM or Check Card to obtain cash or to purchase goods or services in another country, the amount of the charge in foreign currency will be converted to a U.S. dollar amount by the applicable network (e.g. Visa, MasterCard, etc.). In making this conversion, the network will use the procedures set forth in its operating regulations. Conversion to U.S. dollars may occur on a date other than the date of the transaction; therefore, the currency conversion rate may be different from the conversion rate in effect on the transaction date. You understand that we do not determine the currency conversion rate that is used, and we do not receive any portion of the currency conversion rate.

https://www.bankofinternet.com/customer-support/disclosures#id.vcckdic77o9k

about halfway down this long webpage...

But then, I do find this even further down that same LONG page....

Visa® Debit Card Foreign Currency Conversion Rate 2%

So, thanks very much for updating on that and correcting my prior reference to BofI, Vagabond.

This is one of situations where, unfortunately, the Flyer's Guide and Wiki postings on BofI seem to be out-of-date.

PS - DANG!!!! That's got to be the LONGEST single-webpage bank terms and conditions document I've ever seen in my life...

Edited July 4, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

OHHHH... BTW.... news from the AEON ATMs front....

Tonight, when I want to make an AEON ATM withdrawal in BKK, I saw something on their ATM screen that must be NEW because I've never seen or heard of it before with them....

The language basically said... AEON cash withdrawals are limited to 20,000 baht per transaction.

Now, at more than $600 U.S., that's more than most U.S. bankcards' daily ATM withdrawal limit. But still, in the past, people with higher daily card limits had been able to withdraw much larger single transaction sums from AEON.... Wonder why they've recently lowered their per transaction limit?

And of course, if someone has a higher daily card limit, there's nothing to stop them from doing two back-to-back withdrawals to still get the larger sum they might need.... and still, no fee from AEON for doing so.

Edited July 4, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK