Chalerm Vows To Help Get Fugitive Ex-PM Thaksin Pardoned

[SICHONSTEVE]

INCLUDING many red shirted people I hasten to add!!!!!:jap:

It will be very interesting to see if a real anti-Thaksin faction of the red shirts emerges from all this...

I hope so, as he doesn't warrant their idolism as he has milked the wealth of Thailand from the Thai people without them realising this!!!!!

[drdoom6996]

The snakes are running the zoo nowadays

With the monkeys doing the dirty work as always.

[jayboy]

To get a pardon, you first need accept responsibility and repent for your crimes. If Thaksin doesn't admit to any wrongdoing and serve at least a day in jail then how can a pardon be granted to someone who doesn't admit any wrongdoing?

It's a fair point.Nevertheless we know from Wikileaks and elsewhere that the charges against Thaksin had political motivation behind them (that's different from saying there were was no substance to the charges, though they were relatively trivial by Thai standards).What makes this rather contentious that those in the lead (particularly Abhisit and Prayuth) in pursuing Thaksin to the prison cell may have committed prima facie much more serious crimes for which they have not yet been charged.They may indeed be wholly innocent but we don't know because there has been no resolution to the Inquiry, and the army has refused to co-operate.In an ideal world these more serious charges would be cleared up first.

[otherstuff1957]

While we are arguing about the legality of the pardon request, I rather imagine that the powers that be are more concerned with the realpolitik of the situation. In other words, what would be the consequences of granting or not granting the pardon.

If the pardon is granted, it will probably be an acknowledgement of the fact that Thaksin and his supporters will simply not accept anything else. Quite frankly, it looks as though Thaksin has worn out his opponents.

[ozzieovaseas]

"Reacting to Democrat MP Thaworn Senneam's fight against Thaksin being pardoned, he said he still believed a fugitive was entitled to clemency without having to serve time in jail.

Even though a classified report compiled by the Interior Ministry under Thaksin's rule said a fugitive could not be granted pardon, Chalerm insisted that this was not applicable to the former premier.

Past reviews on pardon and amnesty should be viewed on a case-by-case basis because no blanket standard can be applicable to every case, he said."

So when is a fugitive not a fugitive?

What a sad day it is when someone in power says things like this. Even though Thaksins own regime legislated against fugitives getting pardoned,(ie people other than thaksin who have managed to make money illegally ) but NO, the laws don't apply to those that made them.

Is it because he was a prem? Does that mean a prem can do anything and it will be pardoned? where does it stop?!!

Its just unfathomable that they let someone in this position make these remarks, it just tells the world that corruption is alive and well in Thailand. It can't be taken any other way than "the rules don't apply to the rich and powerful"

If you read the latest reports, it seems people are already gathering at Lumphini park in protest..you cannot really balme them

[scorecard]

To get a pardon, you first need accept responsibility and repent for your crimes. If Thaksin doesn't admit to any wrongdoing and serve at least a day in jail then how can a pardon be granted to someone who doesn't admit any wrongdoing?

It's a fair point.Nevertheless we know from Wikileaks and elsewhere that the charges against Thaksin had political motivation behind them (that's different from saying there were was no substance to the charges, though they were relatively trivial by Thai standards).What makes this rather contentious that those in the lead (particularly Abhisit and Prayuth) in pursuing Thaksin to the prison cell may have committed prima facie much more serious crimes for which they have not yet been charged.They may indeed be wholly innocent but we don't know because there has been no resolution to the Inquiry, and the army has refused to co-operate.In an ideal world these more serious charges would be cleared up first.

"relatively trivial". Not correct.

And please let's not regurgitate the old story about 'other people are also corrupt'.

[scorecard]

I'm not sure that makes much sense.If one can win power legitimately why should one want it illegitimately? It's more of an issue for Thaksin's opponents with their coups, judicial interventions and failure to win popular support.

We know that many Thais find Thaksin unacceptable but that doesn't give them a veto power.In essence that's what the political struggle is about.

His path to power may be legitimate (and what's "legitimate" in Thai politics is a very grey area indeed, as the news shows us every day). His path to riches however, which enabled his path to power, certainly has its clouds.

You nail it when you say "struggle" though. This is going to be anything but a smooth transition.

There is a need for a level playing field in terms of justice for all, and the wealth / income gap is far too big.

But 'struggle', sorry I see the 'struggle' last year as nothing more than a smokescreen over the end game which seems to be starting right now.

[Robby nz]

Is not this royal pardon bit indeed draging the King into politics?

Something we are told should not happen.

The PT spokesman says Thaksins conviction was politicaly motivated therefore any pardon will be a political act.

[jayboy]

[quote name='scorecard' timestamp='1315547200' post='4684729'

And please let's not regurgitate the old story about 'other people are also corrupt'.

I'm not talking about corruption.I'm talking about more serious crimes (which as previously noted are far from proven).

[Buchholz]

"Pheu Thai MP Apiwan Wiriyachai said he did not agree with the guilty verdict against Thaksin, adding that since the land deal had been cancelled, it should be the grounds for another judicial review and that the former PM should be acquitted as the deal never took place".

OK!!!! So if a burglar breaks into a house, gets disturbed and escapes from the house only to be caught red-handed with a jemmy and leaving muddy footprints matching his shoes on the living room carpet then he is not guilty of an offence because he didn't steal anything!!!

Thaksin logic epitomised!!!:jap:

What a joker - just like all the red shirts and those red shirt supporters on this forum!!!!!!

Pheu Thai MP Apiwan is a Red Shirt Leader with a long history.

Check out how long he's been out on bail on his still-pending criminal case... in addition to his other more recent pending criminal cases.

His opinion on the guilt or innocence of any one else means absolute squat.

6 PTV Leaders Released on Bail

The Criminal Court releases the six detained PTV leaders on bail today from the Bangkok Remand Prison after they each posted 200,000 baht in cash as bond.

The Criminal Court granted bail to the six PTV leaders on Monday afternoon, including Weera Musikkapong, Jakkrapob Penkair, Jatuporn Prompan, Natthawut Saikua, Apiwan Wiriyachai and Wiputalaeng Pattanapumthai.

2007-08-06

and now, Apiwan is bringing news for Pardon Candidate # 2

.

[Sydebolle]

We will see; I - for one - put all my trust into the Thai legal system. A pardon would mean, he remains guilty but was granted a pardon. Leave this process to the competent Thai authorities to deal with; the rest should attend to the much bigger fish to be fried like reviving the economy, stimulate the tourism industry and bring unity to this beautiful country!

[aylo]

Every year on the King's birthday some prisoners are pardoned and gain early freedom.

2 categories of prisoner are denied the option of the pardon though- those convicted of drug or corruption offences.

Not true, convicted of drug offences, you can still be pardoned.

[Buchholz]

Police deny Pheu Thai MP’s claim that Arisman is in Thailand

BANGKOK, 8 September 2011 (NNT) – The Royal Thai Police Special Branch has dismissed the statement by a Pheu Thai MP which suggests that red-shirt leader and fugitive Arisman Pongruangrong is currently in a hideout in Thailand.

Pheu Thai Party-list MP Colonel Apiwan Wiriyachai previously stated that he had no knowledge of a report that Pheu Thai MPs and members of the United Front of Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) would organize a friendship football match with officials of the Cambodian government.

However, regarding Mr Arisman, who is believed to be the coordinator of the sport event, Colonel Apiwan disclosed that he was living in a secret location within Thailand.

http://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news.php?id=255409080013

[Buchholz]

However, regarding Mr Arisman, who is believed to be the coordinator of the sport event, Colonel Apiwan disclosed that he was living in a secret location within Thailand.

Poor Arisman has been made to suffer enough. He's as equally deserving as Pardon Candidate # 1.

.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Buchholz

[rixalex]

To get a pardon, you first need accept responsibility and repent for your crimes. If Thaksin doesn't admit to any wrongdoing and serve at least a day in jail then how can a pardon be granted to someone who doesn't admit any wrongdoing?

It's a fair point.Nevertheless we know from Wikileaks and elsewhere that the charges against Thaksin had political motivation behind them (that's different from saying there were was no substance to the charges, though they were relatively trivial by Thai standards).What makes this rather contentious that those in the lead (particularly Abhisit and Prayuth) in pursuing Thaksin to the prison cell may have committed prima facie much more serious crimes for which they have not yet been charged.They may indeed be wholly innocent but we don't know because there has been no resolution to the Inquiry, and the army has refused to co-operate.In an ideal world these more serious charges would be cleared up first.

If you wish us to sit down and lament all the crimes that have possibly been committed but yet to be tried, we will be here all day. Not sure where it will get us however.

[Robby nz]

Police deny Pheu Thai MP’s claim that Arisman is in Thailand

BANGKOK, 8 September 2011 (NNT) – The Royal Thai Police Special Branch has dismissed the statement by a Pheu Thai MP which suggests that red-shirt leader and fugitive Arisman Pongruangrong is currently in a hideout in Thailand.

Pheu Thai Party-list MP Colonel Apiwan Wiriyachai previously stated that he had no knowledge of a report that Pheu Thai MPs and members of the United Front of Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) would organize a friendship football match with officials of the Cambodian government.

However, regarding Mr Arisman, who is believed to be the coordinator of the sport event, Colonel Apiwan disclosed that he was living in a secret location within Thailand.

http://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news.php?id=255409080013

Thought he was on the PT's PM list, shouldnt he be sitting in the house with all the other red leaders?

[Buchholz]

Police deny Pheu Thai MP’s claim that Arisman is in Thailand

BANGKOK, 8 September 2011 (NNT) – The Royal Thai Police Special Branch has dismissed the statement by a Pheu Thai MP which suggests that red-shirt leader and fugitive Arisman Pongruangrong is currently in a hideout in Thailand.

Pheu Thai Party-list MP Colonel Apiwan Wiriyachai previously stated that he had no knowledge of a report that Pheu Thai MPs and members of the United Front of Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) would organize a friendship football match with officials of the Cambodian government.

However, regarding Mr Arisman, who is believed to be the coordinator of the sport event, Colonel Apiwan disclosed that he was living in a secret location within Thailand.

http://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news.php?id=255409080013

Thought he was on the PT's PM list, shouldnt he be sitting in the house with all the other red leaders?

No, the PTP decided to keep him off the Party-list MP roster....

But... that's ok... his wife is a Member of Parliament now...

Arisman to surrender later this year: wife

Pheu Thai party-list MP Rapiphan Pongruangrong said Monday that her husband, Arisaman, would surrender later this year.

Rapiphan said Arisaman insisted that he was not a terrorist as charged by the outgoing government.

-- The Nation 2011-08-01

Edited September 9, 2011 by Buchholz

[jayboy]

If you wish us to sit down and lament all the crimes that have possibly been committed but yet to be tried, we will be here all day. Not sure where it will get us however.

All the crimes? No, just the one - the murder of civilians on the streets of Bangkok.

I know it's not a popular subject but I have a feeling it can't be wished away.And whatever Buchholz says it's directly relevant to this thread given that Abhisit is leading the charge against Thaksin's pardon.

[rixalex]

If you wish us to sit down and lament all the crimes that have possibly been committed but yet to be tried, we will be here all day. Not sure where it will get us however.

All the crimes? No, just the one - the murder of civilians on the streets of Bangkok.

I know it's not a popular subject but I have a feeling it can't be wished away.And whatever Buchholz says it's directly relevant to this thread given that Abhisit is leading the charge against Thaksin's pardon.

Abhisit's possible crimes are no more relevant to this topic than Thaksin's possible crimes (i mean the ones he has yet to be tried for). You might just as well be saying, wouldn't it be nice if the business of all those thousands of extra-judicial killings of innocents during the war on drugs be cleared up first. Would be just as silly, and just as off topic.

[Thai at Heart]

Justice Ministry Spokesman Theerachai Wutthitham countered the remarks of Democrat MP for Songkhla Thaworn Senniam on the red-shirt group's signature campaign to seek a royal pardon for ousted former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

The first option is, according to Article 259 of Criminal Procedure Act, the convicted submits a request to the Justice Minister himself, as he or she may or may not be serving the sentence at the time of the request.

Everything written after the 2nd comma above, ("as he or she may or may not be serving the sentence at the time of the request"), is pure fabrication.

The Article doesn't say that all.

It states only what was written before the 2nd comma above.

.

It's a shame we can't hold Theerachai to the same standard...

Forum Rules

15) Not to use ThaiVisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, *truncated*

DIVISION 7

PARDON, COMMUTATION AND REDUCTION

(Table of contents)

_______________

§ 259[147]

Once the case is final, the person sentenced to any punishment whatsoever or any interested person who wishes to petition the King for pardon may submit his petition to the Minister of Justice.

§ 260[148]

A petitioner who is imprisoned may submit his petition to the prison officer or governor. Upon receipt of such petition, the prison officer or governor shall issue a receipt thereof to the petitioner and forthwith forward the petition to the Minister of Justice.

Thailand Penal Code

Where does it even say that it has to be a family member?

Edited September 9, 2011 by Thai at Heart

[chuang]

Justice Ministry Spokesman Theerachai Wutthitham countered the remarks of Democrat MP for Songkhla Thaworn Senniam on the red-shirt group's signature campaign to seek a royal pardon for ousted former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

The first option is, according to Article 259 of Criminal Procedure Act, the convicted submits a request to the Justice Minister himself, as he or she may or may not be serving the sentence at the time of the request.

Everything written after the 2nd comma above, ("as he or she may or may not be serving the sentence at the time of the request"), is pure fabrication.

The Article doesn't say that all.

It states only what was written before the 2nd comma above.

.

So who is right here, a thaivisa member or the Thailand Justice spokesman....

[jayboy]

Rixalex

"Silly and off topic" you say, when clearly my post was neither.I knew this would be too sensitive for some to deal with rationally.Their problem is that Abhisit and his military cronies have yet to be properly scrutinised for some extremely serious offences (think of Mubarak who is facing rather similar charges), while the offences Thaksin has been charged with are relatively trivial.It's hard for some to deal with.

Actually the drug killings are relevant because I think there's a general consensus these were the worst of Thaksin's abuses.If Thaksin was wanted in the Thai courts for these charges I don't think there would be any question of a pardon.So the question of why thee charges weren't brought against him is a matter of legitimate discussion, and relevant to this thread.

[rixalex]

Rixalex

"Silly and off topic" you say, when clearly my post was neither.I knew this would be too sensitive for some to deal with rationally.Their problem is that Abhisit and his military cronies have yet to be properly scrutinised for some extremely serious offences (think of Mubarak who is facing rather similar charges), while the offences Thaksin has been charged with are relatively trivial.It's hard for some to deal with.

Actually the drug killings are relevant because I think there's a general consensus these were the worst of Thaksin's abuses.If Thaksin was wanted in the Thai courts for these charges I don't think there would be any question of a pardon.So the question of why thee charges weren't brought against him is a matter of legitimate discussion, and relevant to this thread.

I'm happy to deal with/discuss other possible crimes by Thaksin or by others, on threads pertinent to those matters, of which there are many. The only way in which they would be pertinent to this thread, is if the individuals concerned had fled after being tried and convicted for those alleged crimes. Until that happens, these matters serve no purpose being included in this discussion, besides offering relief to those who find the actual topic too hard to deal with.

[SICHONSTEVE]

If you wish us to sit down and lament all the crimes that have possibly been committed but yet to be tried, we will be here all day. Not sure where it will get us however.

All the crimes? No, just the one - the murder of civilians on the streets of Bangkok.

I know it's not a popular subject but I have a feeling it can't be wished away.And whatever Buchholz says it's directly relevant to this thread given that Abhisit is leading the charge against Thaksin's pardon.

"The article also reported":

"

Senior public prosecutor Kunlapon Ponlawan said it was not difficult to investigate extra-judicial killings carried out by police officers as the trigger-pullers usually confessed"

The January 24, 2008 edition of The Economist reported:

Yet a panel set up last year by the outgoing junta recently concluded the opposite: over half of those killed in 2003 had no links to the drugs trade. The panel blamed the violence on a government “shoot-to-kill” policy based on flawed blacklists. But far from leading to the prosecutions of those involved, its findings have been buried. The outgoing interim prime minister, Surayad Chulanont took office vowing to right Mr Thaksin's wrongs. Yet this week he said there was insufficient evidence to take legal action over the killings. It is easy to see why the tide has turned. Sunai Phasuk, a researcher for Human Rights Watch, a lobbying group, says that the panel's original report named the politicians who egged on the gunmen. But after the PPP won last month's elections, those names were omitted

The New York Times reported on April 8, 2003:

Since the death of 9-year-old Chakraphan, there have been frequent reports in the Thai press of summary executions and their innocent victims. There was the 16-month-old girl who was shot dead along with her mother, Raiwan Khwanthongyen. There was the pregnant woman, Daranee Tasanawadee, who was killed in front of her two young sons. There was the 8-year-old boy, Jirasak Unthong, who was the only witness to the killing of his parents as they headed home from a temple fair. There was Suwit Baison, 23, a cameraman for a local television station, who fell to his knees in tears in front of Mr. Thaksin and begged for an investigation into the killing of his parents. His stepfather had once been arrested for smoking marijuana, Mr. Suwit said. When the police offered to drop the charge if he would admit to using methamphetamines, he opted instead to pay the $100 fine for marijuana use. Both parents were shot dead as they returned home from the police station on a motorbike. Mr. Suwit said 10 other people in his neighborhood had also been killed after surrendering to the police.

OK!!!! Which of these two unfortunate events could be regarded as being more serious???

Remember that 1,400 innocents lost their lives in one and about 90 (including soldiers, photographers and people executed by sinister men in black (who were not army personnel) in the other. The first was not really investigated and was brushed under the carpet whereas the second WAS investigated, although not that satisfactorily in all truthfulness.

[hammered]

If he comes back a free man, mark my words, Thailand will not have free and fair elections again.

Why should Thaksin have a problem with free and fair elections since the parties he's associated with are able to win them so comfortably?

Historically, people who go to the lengths Thaksin has gone through to obtain power never seem to keep hold of it legitimately. It's not as if "being legitimate" is something this man prides himself on so far.

And to many Thais the man is utterly unacceptable.

I'm not sure that makes much sense.If one can win power legitimately why should one want it illegitimately? It's more of an issue for Thaksin's opponents with their coups, judicial interventions and failure to win popular support.

We know that many Thais find Thaksin unacceptable but that doesn't give them a veto power.In essence that's what the political struggle is about.

Precisely even Korn a couple of elections back ruminated on the vast vote buying Thaksins enemies used unsuccesfully when they lost to Samak. Thaksin may fear and manipulate many things but he has no worries with election. Abhisit's plan was to win the election or at least get within 20 seats so some multi party coaliton could cobble together another cranky government like last time. It didnt work and as many analysts predicted it has gone bad for the establishment.

Those who find Thaksin unacceptable are a minority in my opinion. You have three groups none of which is over half the popualtion. Group one is the ones who want Thaksin back. Group two are those who dont care either way and this group may be bigger than group 1 or not. Group three are those who find him unacceptable, whihc is the smallest group. The third goup need group tow to side with them and as long as notions of utter instability if Thaksin returns can be sold they may. However, if Thaksin is ack in the country that second group will turn on group three if they then continue to try and create trouble. In short the thrid group cant allow his return under any circumstance or their power is gone, which shows the current panic by them over everything PTP do.

Pure power struggle, but one in which the superior strategy and ability to recognize opportunity and a desire for change in the country has seen Thaksin repeatedly outmanouver his opponents who have played an awful game probably based on old assumptions and strategies that are now irrelevant

[Pi Sek]

To get a pardon, you first need accept responsibility and repent for your crimes. If Thaksin doesn't admit to any wrongdoing and serve at least a day in jail then how can a pardon be granted to someone who doesn't admit any wrongdoing?

It's a fair point.Nevertheless we know from Wikileaks and elsewhere that the charges against Thaksin had political motivation behind them (that's different from saying there were was no substance to the charges, though they were relatively trivial by Thai standards).What makes this rather contentious that those in the lead (particularly Abhisit and Prayuth) in pursuing Thaksin to the prison cell may have committed prima facie much more serious crimes for which they have not yet been charged.They may indeed be wholly innocent but we don't know because there has been no resolution to the Inquiry, and the army has refused to co-operate.In an ideal world these more serious charges would be cleared up first.

I think that Jayboy (perceived by many to be a Red Shirt sympathiser and no doubt accused by some of being a paid agitator) is spot on here - coming from someone vehemently opposed to Thaksin (and has publicly acted on it), and who has been left literally scarred for life from last year's "struggle for democracy" when I and several others tried to voice our minority opinion in the spirit of democracy.

Yes, we do know that the Thaksin charges had political motivation - despite the substance to them, which was possibly (and in my opinion unnecessarily) exaggerated to further denigrate his name. I would agree that his existing conviction (i.e. the one charge that has so far been proven in court) is relatively trivial by Thai standards. It's also true that Abhisit and Prayuth should be answerable to questions about last year's protest clearance operation, and it's also true that they may indeed be wholly innocent but we don't know because the army have been, well, difficult to say the least (no doubt under objection from Abhisit himself, who has always maintained he wants to be quizzed on his accountability).

What I would add (as the only on-topic part of this post) is that, regardless of the seriousness of his conviction or the political motivation behind it, Thaksin is clearly as guilty as sin in this case and lies outside the parameters legally required to precede a pardon - and no amount of trumpeting by Chalerm is going to change that, short of the court "losing" official records of the conviction following a quiet word outside the courtroom, as is alleged by many to have happened during Chalerm's son's murder case. I'll stop there because I don't want to give him any ideas!

I would also add that his comments regarding the "more serious" charges against Abhisit and Prayuth are also attributable to the more serious charges against Thaksin, something which I see Jayboy also believes from responses since the one quoted above. Unfortunately the army hasn't been very forthcoming with assistance there either, for some reason which is unknown to many but suspected by many others (including Jayboy and myself).

I would go further and suggest that Thaksin's most severe crime in my opinion is not listed under the charges at all - because it's not actually a crime in a legal sense (of course, everyone else in Thai political history is guilty of the same; but Thaksin went, how do I put it, overboard): I think that Thaksin is absolutely opposed to democratic values but wants to function within a perceived democracy, very much like Hugo Chavez - I opine that slowing democratic development of the country and especially its population is of paramount importance to him. That's why, in my opinion, he and his proxies continue to win these "free and fair" elections (which can't be free and fair because they rely on misinformation and the dirtier side of politics, much like most developing countries and probably most developed ones too).

Just my overly philosophical and off topic rambling opinion of course, and I'm sure there are many intelligent people that see it the other way; and some might even say I'm a fascist for holding such a view. Others might call me a cynic, others might call me a realist... but hey, that's democracy - we don't all have to agree on everything.

[tlansford]

If he comes back a free man, mark my words, Thailand will not have free and fair elections again.

Why should Thaksin have a problem with free and fair elections since the parties he's associated with are able to win them so comfortably?

Historically, people who go to the lengths Thaksin has gone through to obtain power never seem to keep hold of it legitimately. It's not as if "being legitimate" is something this man prides himself on so far.

And to many Thais the man is utterly unacceptable.

I'm not sure that makes much sense.If one can win power legitimately why should one want it illegitimately? It's more of an issue for Thaksin's opponents with their coups, judicial interventions and failure to win popular support.

We know that many Thais find Thaksin unacceptable but that doesn't give them a veto power.In essence that's what the political struggle is about.

... win power legitimately ...

Bingo

The political struggle is interesting. And the results will (of course!) have an impact on the long-term direction of the country.

Hammered had a good comment about this.

In any case, I'll be happy to see the question of "the fugitive" resolved one way or another, because it is more interesting in the short- mid-term is to see what policies get enacted and how it helps/hurts Thailand.

[SICHONSTEVE]

even Korn a couple of elections back ruminated on the vast vote buying Thaksins enemies used unsuccesfully when they lost to Samak. Thaksin may fear and manipulate many things but he has no worries with election. Abhisit's plan was to win the election or at least get within 20 seats so some multi party coaliton could cobble together another cranky government like last time. It didnt work and as many analysts predicted it has gone bad for the establishment.

Those who find Thaksin unacceptable are a minority in my opinion. You have three groups none of which is over half the popualtion. Group one is the ones who want Thaksin back. Group two are those who dont care either way and this group may be bigger than group 1 or not. Group three are those who find him unacceptable, whihc is the smallest group. The third goup need group tow to side with them and as long as notions of utter instability if Thaksin returns can be sold they may. However, if Thaksin is ack in the country that second group will turn on group three if they then continue to try and create trouble. In short the thrid group cant allow his return under any circumstance or their power is gone, which shows the current panic by them over everything PTP do.

Pure power struggle, but one in which the superior strategy and ability to recognize opportunity and a desire for change in the country has seen Thaksin repeatedly outmanouver his opponents who have played an awful game probably based on old assumptions and strategies that are now irrelevant

"Those who find Thaksin unacceptable are a minority in my opinion".

Funniest statement I've seen on TV for many a while!!! Ha Ha Ha!!! Thank you for making me laugh!!

[jayboy]

I'm happy to deal with/discuss other possible crimes by Thaksin or by others, on threads pertinent to those matters, of which there are many. The only way in which they would be pertinent to this thread, is if the individuals concerned had fled after being tried and convicted for those alleged crimes. Until that happens, these matters serve no purpose being included in this discussion, besides offering relief to those who find the actual topic too hard to deal with.

I believe this thread is about Chalerm and Thaksin's pardon.I understand why you want to limit discussion but the matters raised (including the potential serious criminal charges against Thaksin's main accusers) are relevant.

[Pi Sek]

<snip>

We know that many Thais find Thaksin unacceptable but that doesn't give them a veto power.In essence that's what the political struggle is about.

<snip>

Those who find Thaksin unacceptable are a minority in my opinion. You have three groups none of which is over half the popualtion. Group one is the ones who want Thaksin back. Group two are those who dont care either way and this group may be bigger than group 1 or not. Group three are those who find him unacceptable, whihc is the smallest group. The third goup need group tow to side with them and as long as notions of utter instability if Thaksin returns can be sold they may. However, if Thaksin is ack in the country that second group will turn on group three if they then continue to try and create trouble. In short the thrid group cant allow his return under any circumstance or their power is gone, which shows the current panic by them over everything PTP do.

<snip>

The sizes of the groups largely depends on marketing... as you have pointed out on many occasions, referring to "realpolitik" (see, I do read your posts ).

Group one is admittedly very large at the moment. Group two is the biggest (and maybe even be more than half of the country) - that's a real shame in my opinion as it highlights the apathy in this country towards the importance of politics and, following this line of thought, good governance. I agree that group three is currently the smallest group of the three.

What I'm not sure about is that group two will turn on group three if they oppose Thaksin if/when he returns. It really depends on how strong group three's opposition is and on the actions/brazenness of Thaksin himself.

Your first sentence though represents the real problem. True democracy is not necessarily about being acceptable, but not being unacceptable.