Thai Sayings and Phrases Wanted

[CMBob]

On 3/29/2018 at 1:12 PM, tgeezer said:

It says “looking after Tiger cubs, crocodile babies.” 

It means looking after the babies of creatures which are dangerous brings trouble. 

I think that you can take it that babies of bad parentage bring trouble. 

I'm confused by the phrase/idiom and understand the literal phrase "tiger cub" also means a boy scout; regardless, can you please advise as to the word "ลูด" as I can't find it anywhere (just a misspelling of "ลูก"?)?

[bannork]

A

1 minute ago, CMBob said:

I'm confused by the phrase/idiom and understand the literal phrase "tiger cub" also means a boy scout; regardless, can you please advise as to the word "ลูด" as I can't find it anywhere (just a misspelling of "ลูก"?)?

A misspelling sure

[tgeezer]

On 02/04/2018 at 2:21 AM, bannork said:

A

A misspelling sure

Thanks bannork.  Also ลูกเสือ means Boy Scout but it can be assumed that this saying predates that organisation. Also baby crocodiles and Boy Scouts have noting in common so เลี้ยง would be difficult to apply to both.  

 

Incidentally bannork, can you ask the wife about the Uber taxi post, I would also like to know if my answers mean anything to you or her. 

[digbeth]

On 1/4/2561 at 9:16 PM, 2112 said:

Can someone tell me the common word for neighborhood mom & pop shops that sell beer, snacks, etc.? I have usually called them ร้านชำ (ran cham) but I think that may be incorrect. Is it ร้านค้า (ran ka)?? I always think of ร้านค้า as being bigger stores.

Thanks!

ร้านชำ is correct short from ร้านขายของชำ grocery store

 

another widely understood loneword from Taechew Chinese is โชห่วย sometimes misspelled as โชว์ห่วย 

 

ร้านค้า is just unspecified shops

[bannork]

A new version of the old ไม่เห็นโลงศพไม่หลั่งน้ำตา 

This one is for those of us who are putting on weight but don't want to know anything about it ไม่เห็นตาชั่งไม่หลั่งน้ำตา

If I don't see the scales the tears won't well up.

[DavidHouston]

Thank you บ้านนอก for this saying. What are your thoughts about expressing this idea in English?  Might this saying mean "to misperceive the consequences of one’s actions; be shortsighted; to failure to foresee  unintended consequences"?

 

Here is one explanation from http://www.xn--12cg1cxchd0a2gzc1c5d5a.net/ไม่เห็นโลงศพ-ไม่หลั่งน้ำตา/:

"ไม่เห็นโลงศพ ไม่หลั่งน้ำตา หมายถึง ไม่เห็นผลลัพธ์ที่น่าสลด ก็จะไม่สำนึกกับการกระทำที่ไม่ดีของตน

 

ขยายความ – สำนวนไทยคำว่า ไม่เห็นโลงศพ ไม่หลั่งน้ำตา นิยมใช้กับคนที่ถ้าไม่เห็นผลของการกระทำที่เลวร้าย หรือเสียหายร้ายแรง หรืออันตรายถึงชีวิต ก็จะไม่สำนึกถึงการกระทำอันไม่เหมาะสมของตนเอง ซึ่งคนเหล่านี้ต่อให้ใครพูดถึงผลเสียของการกระทำของตน ก็จะไม่ยอมฟัง ไม่ยอมเชื่อ จนกว่าจะได้เห็นผลลัพธ์อันน่าสยดสยองเท่านั้น

 

ที่มา – พจนานุกรมฉบับราชบัณฑิตยสถาน"

Edited April 7, 2018 by DavidHouston

[bannork]

15 hours ago, DavidHouston said:

Thank you บ้านนอก for this saying. What are your thoughts about expressing this idea in English?  Might this saying mean "to misperceive the consequences of one’s actions; be shortsighted; to failure to foresee  unintended consequences"?

 

Here is one explanation from http://www.xn--12cg1cxchd0a2gzc1c5d5a.net/ไม่เห็นโลงศพ-ไม่หลั่งน้ำตา/:

"ไม่เห็นโลงศพ ไม่หลั่งน้ำตา หมายถึง ไม่เห็นผลลัพธ์ที่น่าสลด ก็จะไม่สำนึกกับการกระทำที่ไม่ดีของตน

 

ขยายความ – สำนวนไทยคำว่า ไม่เห็นโลงศพ ไม่หลั่งน้ำตา นิยมใช้กับคนที่ถ้าไม่เห็นผลของการกระทำที่เลวร้าย หรือเสียหายร้ายแรง หรืออันตรายถึงชีวิต ก็จะไม่สำนึกถึงการกระทำอันไม่เหมาะสมของตนเอง ซึ่งคนเหล่านี้ต่อให้ใครพูดถึงผลเสียของการกระทำของตน ก็จะไม่ยอมฟัง ไม่ยอมเชื่อ จนกว่าจะได้เห็นผลลัพธ์อันน่าสยดสยองเท่านั้น

 

ที่มา – พจนานุกรมฉบับราชบัณฑิตยสถาน"

The saying always reminds me of youths on motorbikes in Thailand, David. Reckless driving which they don't realise can kill them any second. I don't think there is an English equivalent- 'You never miss the well till the water runs dry' is not quite the same imo because it implies we sometimes take things for granted too much  but to me  ไม่เห็นโลงศพ ไม่หลั่งน้ำตา implies we are not aware of the consequences, the physical risks, of our action. We are reckless or foolhardy.

I learnt a new word today - การเหมารวม a stereotype. Chuan Leekpai  was protesting Prayud's generalising of all politicians as bad. It can be used as a verb as indeed Mr Chuan used itข  คสช.ไม่ควรเหมารวมนักการเมืองเลวทั้งหมด

[tgeezer]

How can you not see a coffin? By refusing to look at one, then you don't have to react by crying.
Very interesting explanation from the RID.


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[DavidHouston]

Note that the phrase is used in the refrain of the song "ไม่เห็นโลงศพ ไม่หลั่งน้ำตา"  See https://www.siamzone.com/music/thailyric/9241

 

"เพิ่งรู้ว่าเธอสำคัญกับฉัน
แต่ได้เเค่ฝันอยู่กับความหลังเมื่อเธอทิ้งไป
ไปอยู่กับคนที่เห็นค่าทำให้เธอนั้นมีค่า
ส่วนฉันไม่เห็นโลงศพไม่หลั่งน้ำตา"

Here's my take. What do you think?
"I just came to realize how important you are to me

I dream about the past only after you left me
And went to live with someone who sees how valuable you really are

As for me, I didn't see it coming, I didn't know how bad it would be."

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by DavidHouston

[bannork]

9 hours ago, tgeezer said:

How can you not see a coffin? By refusing to look at one, then you don't have to react by crying.
Very interesting explanation from the RID.


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 You refuse to look at the coffin,  you refuse to contemplate the consequences of your action, whether it be death/serious injury due to driving like a maniac or a broken heart due to underestimating the value of someone to you. Thus the tears of regret must fall later as you realise how much you have suffered due to your short sightedness/arrogance/stupidity/pride, etc.

A silly fool.

[bannork]

9 hours ago, tgeezer said:

How can you not see a coffin? By refusing to look at one, then you don't have to react by crying.
Very interesting explanation from the RID.


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 You refuse to look at the coffin,  you refuse to contemplate the consequences of your action, whether it be death/serious injury due to driving like a maniac or a broken heart due to underestimating the value of someone to you. Thus the tears of regret must fall later as you realise how much you have suffered due to your short sightedness/arrogance/stupidity/pride, etc.

A silly fool.

[tgeezer]

David, as you know I like to translate word for word so the first line I agree with you. 

The second line I think is “But I can only dream of the past when you discard me and go” เธอทิ้งไป 

“Go to live with a person who sees your worth, that makes you valuable”

เธอนั้น looks odd, and I don’t see what it does so I have it as the pronoun นั่น 

 “as for me, ไม่เห็นศพไม่หลั่งน้ำตา 

  

My interpretation of the explanation in the RID is that people who don’t see their bad or inappropriate behaviour, refuse to listen when when it is pointed out to them are destined to suffer for it.  

This song Reminds me of “You don’t know what you have till it’s gone”. 

The coffin maybe represents the bad things you are doing, not crying is refusing to see them. 

[tgeezer]

3 hours ago, bannork said:

 You refuse to look at the coffin,  you refuse to contemplate the consequences of your action, whether it be death/serious injury due to driving like a maniac or a broken heart due to underestimating the value of someone to you. Thus the tears of regret must fall later as you realise how much you have suffered due to your short sightedness/arrogance/stupidity/pride, etc.

A silly fool.

Very good bannork, I slept on my reply, I am in England, and see that we are on the same wavelength. 

[tgeezer]

bannork, do you see a word starting with การ as a verb? . I think that most people see that by adding ‘ing’ to the verb is the acceptable way to show การ, ‘generalising’ for example.

However เหมารวม is a new word I wonder if since it is not in the RID can it be said to be ทางการ ?    

 If politicians use conversational words from what I have seen on Pantip, I would translate เหมารวม as ‘to jump to the conclusion that...” because I have only seen it used censoriously. 

 

 

 

[bannork]

8 hours ago, tgeezer said:

bannork, do you see a word starting with การ as a verb? . I think that most people see that by adding ‘ing’ to the verb is the acceptable way to show การ, ‘generalising’ for example.

However เหมารวม is a new word I wonder if since it is not in the RID can it be said to be ทางการ ?    

 If politicians use conversational words from what I have seen on Pantip, I would translate เหมารวม as ‘to jump to the conclusion that...” because I have only seen it used censoriously. 

 

 

 

I don't think we can use 'jump to the conclusion that' in the sentence I saw it. Mr Chuan was criticising the government spokesman for saying that all politicians are bad. This is not a new statement from the government, they've been saying that for four years!

For me 'jump to the conclusion ' usually has some sense of the present or recent past, or an opinion recently formed , i.e. 'don't jump to the conclusion that tgeezer has gone to the UK to avoid being splashed at Songkran'. 

[tgeezer]

I can’t gainsay that, jump to conclusion came to mind when I read the ‘muscle queen’ complaint.
I am never in Thailand for the New Year now that I have retired, I call it สงคราม, so you are correct that I would avoid it.


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[roulax]

I found this in one of my old thai teaching books. 

After being there for several years now and hearing those words all the time, I found it funny that it mentions " Foreigners should not use these words"

 

[bannork]

Andrew Biggs' weekly magazine column is funny today. Talking about the World Cup and gambling, he mentions sending a postcard with the predicted winner of the World Cup in to the Thai Rath newspaper in the hope of winning a large prize. Of course Andrew is not alone, there will be millions of other hopefuls.

This is not gambling Thais assure him, this is ลุ้นโฃค -performing an act in the hope good luck will come your way.

I like it!

[tgeezer]

I have just noticed this one and found that ลุ้น Is missing from my 2525 edition of the RID but found it in Longdoo.  I think that it must be a new word and ลุ้นโชค a new application.   

The newer definition has it as เอาใจช่วย and สนับสนุน and has an example: นั่งลุ้นฟุดบอล 

Without knowing any of that we are forced to guess what ลุ้น does to โชค, do you agree with Andrew Biggs? 

[bannork]

This American teacher has ลุ้น as rooting for (supporting, cheering on a team) 

 Teacher Orm gives an example below where it could translate as keep your fingers crossed for..... 

https://www.gotoknow.org/posts/278291

 

Back to the Andrew Bigg's example of  ลุ้นโชค - -performing an act in the hope good luck will come your way. Perhaps we could simplify it.

tgeezer: 'Hello bannork fancy meeting you here at the post office. That postcard you are sending has no picture on it. Are you sure your friends in the UK will like it?'

bannork: 'I'm not sending it to the UK, rather I'm sending it to the Thai Rath newspaper. I'm praying/ hoping/ keeping my fingers crossed for good luck ลุ้นโชค regarding the World Cup winner. I've chosen England. If my postcard is picked out and England has won, I could win a few million baht!'

tgeezer: 'But England were knocked out last week, didn't you know?'

(bannork smacks his forehead, cursing Gareth Southgate and his broken TV). 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by bannork

[tgeezer]

I heard on the radio yesterday that there is an age above which a child can no longer learn a language, I can only guess what that means. I feel that I shall never speak Thai because although I try not to, I am often trying to find meaning in expressions which I have never encountered other than on the page.
The explanation of ‘by the way’ offered is not my experience, อย่าลืมนะ means what it says ‘don’t forget’.
เช่น เพื่อนจะไปเยี่ยมคนใดคนหนึ่ง ขณะที่เขากำลังออกจากบ้านคุณเรียกร้องว่า โอ อีกอย่างหนึ่งครับ อย่าลืมซื้อของ
“Oh, another thing..”
is closer to ‘by the way’ I in my experience.
However it is impossible to know the teacher’s experience, and almost impossible to transmit that to a Thai in any case, but it would be a disaster if the student thought อีกอย่างหนึ่ง but said “don’t forget” .
That is a simplistic way of putting it I know, but goes some way to explain my reservations on translation.



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[tgeezer]

I mentioned ลุ้น to a friend on Facetime this morning and later heard a footbal correspondent say that the Eng. Colombia match would have a lot of people 'knawing their fingernails'. This seemed to fit ลุ้น as described by my friend; he talked of waiting for exam results among other things. Is it possible that ลุ้นโชค as an answer missed the point of the question which suggested gambling?

 

 

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[bannork]

51 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

I mentioned ลุ้น to a friend on Facetime this morning and later heard a footbal correspondent say that the Eng. Colombia match would have a lot of people 'knawing their fingernails'. This seemed to fit ลุ้น as described by my friend; he talked of waiting for exam results among other things. Is it possible that ลุ้นโชค as an answer missed the point of the question which suggested gambling?

 

 

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I don't think so. The Thai answer to Andrew Bigg's query as to whether sending in a postcard with the predicted winner to The World Cup to the newspaper was gambling was that it was not.

It was simply an act that hoped/prayed for good luck as the end result, like crossing your fingers or touching wood

After all, 1 postcard in 10 million or more is really terrible odds which no serious gambler would entertain.

[tgeezer]

I am just referring to the differences in perception. Of course you are correct, in a situation where nothing is at risk then say ลุ้นโชค but we cross our fingers even when there is something to lose so not exactly ลุ้นโชค . My point is that we know the situation and we know what to say, no translation is necessary, isn't that the point of this thread?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[bannork]

I saw this one today in regard to the National Legislature Assembly's sudden decision to possibly dismiss all the incumbent inspectors of the election process.

ทำตัวเป็นไม้หลักปักเลน- to be fickle, to waver, to not be resolute

[bannork]

แคะขี้มูก to pick one's nose

แคะ- to take out, dig out

ขี้มูก mucus, snot, bogey

Sorry for the details, all for educational purposes naturally....

[tgeezer]

I saw this one today in regard to the National Legislature Assembly's sudden decision to possibly dismiss all the incumbent inspectors of the election process.
ทำตัวเป็นไม้หลักปักเลน- to be fickle, to waver, to not be resolute

Does it refer to the National Legislature or the Inspectors?

I see from the dictionary that ไม้หลักปักขี้ควาย (the main pillar (of a house) which is set in mud/buffalo poo.)is another way of putting it.
I wonder if ทำตัวเป็น is a better way of saying เหมือน .
I shall miss this old dictionary when I return to Bangkok.

I found โลเล for which only มีนิสัยไม่แน่นอน is given. But looking in Longdo I see that its meaning has widened to include speech. พูดจาโลเล
If you use Longdo you will see that it says โลเล ว. ไม่อยู่กับร่องกับรอย (มักใช้แก่กริยาพูด) พูดจาโลเล.



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[tgeezer]

แคะขี้มูก to pick one's nose
แคะ- to take out, dig out
ขี้มูก mucus, snot, bogey
Sorry for the details, all for educational purposes naturally....

I had a friend who used to like to point out to people that they were coy when picking their teeth but not when picking their nose!


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[bannork]

Thais call this type of person หุ่นไม่ให้แต่ใจรัก  the figure won't allow it but the heart desires it. 55555

Another one is อายุไม่ให้แต่ใจรัก  ( my/your/her/his) age doesn't allow it but the heart wants it- mutton dressed as lamb

 

[tgeezer]

Hello bannork, I have found a useful tool in Google translate where as you enter the phrase it translates simultaneously. It is quite interesing because it seems to show how words have come to mean what they do. หุ่นไม่ gives : not a puppet>หุ่นไม่ให้ : do not give >หุ่นไม่ให้แต่ใจรัก: I do not love. So it appears to treat แต่ as a preposition because หุ่นไม่ให้ใจรัก : I do not mind.

This is where I think context is important because if I were to ask a native speaker they are likely to shrug their shoulders and say "forget it" but we know that we have to try to understand what people mean so want to see if we can work something out. So as suggested, แต่ is treated as a conjunction.
In this case you have provided a picture and explained the meaning which I take to be comparing the หุ่น of the elder lady with the หุ่น of the younger woman and what they each are able to wear. The older woman by fighting the younder puts herself in the same class as the younger woman but she clearly isn't. Mutton dressed as lamb works as far as dress only is concerned but the dominant feature here appears to me to be a 'cat fight' but, hey ho!

Oh, Google asked if I meant หุ่นไม่ให่แต่ใจรัก from Amazon? I got nothing when I clicked it. Perhaps in that context it was a review of a dress which had to be returned. "I liked it but it doesn't fit my body shape." (too small).
If that is the syntax beng used than I guess that other factors apart from อายุ might be understood; ขนาด ทรัพย์(ติดตัว) รายได้ ร่างกาย for example.

I know that I "tink too mut" but it's this or dig the garden!



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