Sacred Heart Nazi Sports Academy

[Rumpole]

Especially in the context of the historic direct Nazi ties of some very high level members of the British royal family.

Not just the Royal Family, either. Hitler's policies were admired by many members of the British aristocracy and the establishment in the 1930s, including some holders of the Offices of State.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Rumpole

[alexpoker]

One thing is for sure though: There is no danger of Thailand developing Neo-Nazis or suddenly becoming a Nazi state. Those that run around in Nazi regalia obviously have no clue about the history. Those who don't probably have never heard of it. There are other problems in this country, if you've noticed.

Is it ignorant? Sure. Evil? No.

Agree with this. Its ignorant and in bad taste, but I doubt these children will grow up to become neo nazis. Not gonna change much in the larger scheme of things. if the children ever decide to read up on some WW2 history, they will find out exactly what happened. Even if they didnt, they wont grow up to become mass murderers.

[kerryk]

Especially in the context of the historic direct Nazi ties of some very high level members of the British royal family.

Not just the Royal Family, either. Hitler's policies were admired by many members of the British aristocracy and the establishment in the 1930s, including some holders of the Offices of State.

I think it should be pointed out that while a few loony people outside of Germany liked Hitler early in his career no one did after he started a war that killed 50,000,000 people. The historical record that we are left with is not of a goose stepping nut case in the 1930's but one of the greatest villains and mass murderers of all time.

The fact that the Thailand was on his side during WW II will always be a black mark against Thailand no matter how many times history is re written to the contrary.

Certainly it is is a positive pragmatic result that Thailand suffered little if any during WW II but the moral cost was great and goose stepping kids are not the way to bury this less than honorable chapter in Thai history.

[uptheos]

The fact that the Thailand was on his side during WW II will always be a black mark against Thailand no matter how many times history is re written to the contrary.

And maybe this is why the kids are ignorant of its significance. It's not taught and probably been erased from their history books........not that they would have anything other than selectively written Thai history books anyway.

As stated before, they could probably tell you about the wicked Khmer's and the Preah Vihear temple, but ask them about genocide (in Thai of course) and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia between 1975-79 and you'll get a blank stare. (not just from the kids)

How much are the fees at this crap school anyway?

Edited September 26, 2011 by uptheos

[kerryk]

The fact that the Thailand was on his side during WW II will always be a black mark against Thailand no matter how many times history is re written to the contrary.

And maybe this is why the kids are ignorant of its significance. It's not taught and probably been erased from their history books........not that they would have anything other than selectively written Thai history books anyway.

As stated before, they could probably tell you about the wicked Khmer's and the Preah Vihear temple, but ask them about genocide (in Thai of course) and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia between 1975-79 and you'll get a blank stare. (not just from the kids)

How much are the fees at this crap school anyway?

Current GF is from Surin and speaks Khmer. Her father was a government worker during the 70's and 80's and was stationed on the border. She knows a lot about it because her mother made her father move because of the danger. A lot of Thais speak Khmer and I would think those that do know about the Khmer Rouge.

I also think those who live in Phetchabun know about the communists who fought from there for 10 years. There are pockets of knowledge because family events but it is not taught in schools.

BTW I find it fascinating to hear family accounts of international events like the Khmer Rouge. Big events made so real by the little personal details. Thais have seen a lot of history, to bad they don't get together and write it all down.

[newbie001]

I cannot believe anyone is condoning this performance. Most should agree that it is totally inappropriate. But in the same vane it shouldn't turn into an excuse to bash all of the country or the people or their cultural values. People's western ideals and upbringing shouldn't be considered better or more learned.

The main reason that westerners care about these things is because they are forced to. People do the most horrific racist and ignorant things in their own countries but in public it is all " we never do things like that"

FYI Thailand didn't support Germany in WW2. They signed a treaty with Japan after 8 hours of fighting so that they wouldn't be destroyed. That doesn't mean that they knew or cared what Germany was doing in Europe. Only Pibunsongran supported some of Hitler's beliefs, not the Thai people.

There are a lot of ignorant things that happen in this world and Thailand isn't an exception. Just stop bashing the country or taking the event so personal.

No one gets upset over the crusades where a lot more people were killed because of their religion. If the students were dressed up as crusaders would you all beat that to death like this thread?

[kerryk]

I cannot believe anyone is condoning this performance. Most should agree that it is totally inappropriate. But in the same vane it shouldn't turn into an excuse to bash all of the country or the people or their cultural values. People's western ideals and upbringing shouldn't be considered better or more learned.

The main reason that westerners care about these things is because they are forced to. People do the most horrific racist and ignorant things in their own countries but in public it is all " we never do things like that"

FYI Thailand didn't support Germany in WW2. They signed a treaty with Japan after 8 hours of fighting so that they wouldn't be destroyed. That doesn't mean that they knew or cared what Germany was doing in Europe. Only Pibunsongran supported some of Hitler's beliefs, not the Thai people.

There are a lot of ignorant things that happen in this world and Thailand isn't an exception. Just stop bashing the country or taking the event so personal.

No one gets upset over the crusades where a lot more people were killed because of their religion. If the students were dressed up as crusaders would you all beat that to death like this thread?

Good example. You bought the re write of history hook line and sinker.

The allies wanted to try Pibunsongran for war crimes in 1946 but couldn't because of his support by the Thai people. After a short couple of years he came back to Thailand and was PM again even after WW II, his secret deals with the Japanese before they came to Thailand in 1941, declaration of war against the US and UK, his invasion of Burma all swept under the carpet.

The Thais have done a good job of re writing history, they convinced you for example.

But I don't want to hijack this thread as there is already another one on Thai history running now in the General forum. I would suggest you read it for links of what really happened to Thailand during WWII.

[Paagai]

After seeing the photos I think I see a Thai political message in this march. The logo on the black vest showed the seal of the Nazis and had printed on it RED NAZISM. When you add to this the fact they were all wearing red shirts I see a political influence there. This was drilled home to me when I opened the photo and my wife yells out "see dang, see dang". Oh well who knows.

Yeah, and if you know something of Thailand's history over the last few decades you'll know that Krating Deang didn't start off as an energy drink this could well have other Thai political motivations that are being missed in the "don't mention the war" hysteria on this thread.

Of course, if that hunch is correct the discussion is gonna be very limited. Not sure how much of that one they teach in Thai schools either.

From the pictures it looks more like harmless fun than anything intended to have any kind of message though.

[newbie001]

Kerry K. You are the one rewriting history. You show me one document that Thais signed allied with Germany. All I stated was that the country signed a treaty with Japan after 1 day of fighting.

They allied with Japan to protect from being occupied. How is that rewriting history? If they had a secret agreement with Japan (like you state), then why did Thais die fighting them at the border?

Yes, Piboon supported the ideas of the Nazis, but that doesn't mean the populace did. He was a brutal leader but was liked by the populace for his defense of Thailand not for his hatred of the Chinese.

As per your belief in secret agreement with Japan prior to their invasion of Thailand, where did you read that?

I

[Thaddeus]

Kerry K. You are the one rewriting history. You show me one document that Thais signed allied with Germany. All I stated was that the country signed a treaty with Japan after 1 day of fighting.

They allied with Japan to protect from being occupied. How is that rewriting history? If they had a secret agreement with Japan (like you state), then why did Thais die fighting them at the border?

Yes, Piboon supported the ideas of the Nazis, but that doesn't mean the populace did. He was a brutal leader but was liked by the populace for his defense of Thailand not for his hatred of the Chinese.

As per your belief in secret agreement with Japan prior to their invasion of Thailand, where did you read that?

I

Franco-Thai Border War (Jan. 9, 1941-Jan. 28, 1941)--Thailand, then an unofficial ally of Japan, initiated an invasion of French Indochina after early border skirmishes from November 1940. After early successes, the Thai forces were forced back by French reinforcements. At sea, the French navy, in the form of one cruiser, wiped out nearly one third of the Thai navy off the island of Kho Chang on Jan. 17. Japan arranged a cease-fire on Jan. 28. Per a written agreement signed on March 11, France gave portions of Laos and Cambodia to Thailand.

Japanese Invasion of Thailand (1941)--Japan, while hoping that secret negotiations with the Thai government would result in the right to free movement of Japanese forces in Thailand, invaded Thailand on December 8, 1941. Japan's goal was access to invasion routes to British-ruled Burma and Malaya. Thai forces put up stiff resistance for several hours, but the fighting ended when the Thai dicator, Plaek Pibulsonggram, signed an armistice with Japan.

Thailand as a Member of the Axis Powers- (1941-1945)-Thailand and Japan formed an alliance December 21, 1941. On January 25, 1942, the Thai government declared war on the United States and the United Kingdom, thus becoming a member of the Axis Powers. The Thai ambassador to the United States refused to deliver the declaration of war and became a leader in Thailand's anti-Japanese resistance. Because of this, the United States did not declare war on Thailand. By the end of the war, Thai resistance forces numbered around 50,000 and were in opposition to the Japanese occupation.

Source: http://www.historyguy.com/wars_of_thailand.htm

[transam]

Kerry K. You are the one rewriting history. You show me one document that Thais signed allied with Germany. All I stated was that the country signed a treaty with Japan after 1 day of fighting.

They allied with Japan to protect from being occupied. How is that rewriting history? If they had a secret agreement with Japan (like you state), then why did Thais die fighting them at the border?

Yes, Piboon supported the ideas of the Nazis, but that doesn't mean the populace did. He was a brutal leader but was liked by the populace for his defense of Thailand not for his hatred of the Chinese.

As per your belief in secret agreement with Japan prior to their invasion of Thailand, where did you read that?

I

Franco-Thai Border War (Jan. 9, 1941-Jan. 28, 1941)--Thailand, then an unofficial ally of Japan, initiated an invasion of French Indochina after early border skirmishes from November 1940. After early successes, the Thai forces were forced back by French reinforcements. At sea, the French navy, in the form of one cruiser, wiped out nearly one third of the Thai navy off the island of Kho Chang on Jan. 17. Japan arranged a cease-fire on Jan. 28. Per a written agreement signed on March 11, France gave portions of Laos and Cambodia to Thailand.

Japanese Invasion of Thailand (1941)--Japan, while hoping that secret negotiations with the Thai government would result in the right to free movement of Japanese forces in Thailand, invaded Thailand on December 8, 1941. Japan's goal was access to invasion routes to British-ruled Burma and Malaya. Thai forces put up stiff resistance for several hours, but the fighting ended when the Thai dicator, Plaek Pibulsonggram, signed an armistice with Japan.

Thailand as a Member of the Axis Powers- (1941-1945)-Thailand and Japan formed an alliance December 21, 1941. On January 25, 1942, the Thai government declared war on the United States and the United Kingdom, thus becoming a member of the Axis Powers. The Thai ambassador to the United States refused to deliver the declaration of war and became a leader in Thailand's anti-Japanese resistance. Because of this, the United States did not declare war on Thailand. By the end of the war, Thai resistance forces numbered around 50,000 and were in opposition to the Japanese occupation.

Source: http://www.historygu...of_thailand.htm

Thanks for that info.

[kerryk]

Kerry K. You are the one rewriting history. You show me one document that Thais signed allied with Germany. All I stated was that the country signed a treaty with Japan after 1 day of fighting.

They allied with Japan to protect from being occupied. How is that rewriting history? If they had a secret agreement with Japan (like you state), then why did Thais die fighting them at the border?

Yes, Piboon supported the ideas of the Nazis, but that doesn't mean the populace did. He was a brutal leader but was liked by the populace for his defense of Thailand not for his hatred of the Chinese.

As per your belief in secret agreement with Japan prior to their invasion of Thailand, where did you read that?

I

The answers to all of your questions are easy enough to find. Like I said I don't want to change this thread to a WW II thread. Go to General forum and read "Are Thais Taught Anything About The World Outside Of Thailand." The same questions you pose have been answered on Thai Visa many times over the past 5 years. Newbies usually only skim over Thai history instead of reading anything in depth about what really happened. Having said that though, it does not take a brain trust to realize what Nazi Germany was all about and who the members of the tripartite Pact were and that Thailand was the only voluntary ally of Japan. http://www.enotes.com/topic/Tripartite_Pact

[harrry]

Kerry K. You are the one rewriting history. You show me one document that Thais signed allied with Germany. All I stated was that the country signed a treaty with Japan after 1 day of fighting.

They allied with Japan to protect from being occupied. How is that rewriting history? If they had a secret agreement with Japan (like you state), then why did Thais die fighting them at the border?

Yes, Piboon supported the ideas of the Nazis, but that doesn't mean the populace did. He was a brutal leader but was liked by the populace for his defense of Thailand not for his hatred of the Chinese.

As per your belief in secret agreement with Japan prior to their invasion of Thailand, where did you read that?

I

Franco-Thai Border War (Jan. 9, 1941-Jan. 28, 1941)--Thailand, then an unofficial ally of Japan, initiated an invasion of French Indochina after early border skirmishes from November 1940. After early successes, the Thai forces were forced back by French reinforcements. At sea, the French navy, in the form of one cruiser, wiped out nearly one third of the Thai navy off the island of Kho Chang on Jan. 17. Japan arranged a cease-fire on Jan. 28. Per a written agreement signed on March 11, France gave portions of Laos and Cambodia to Thailand.

Japanese Invasion of Thailand (1941)--Japan, while hoping that secret negotiations with the Thai government would result in the right to free movement of Japanese forces in Thailand, invaded Thailand on December 8, 1941. Japan's goal was access to invasion routes to British-ruled Burma and Malaya. Thai forces put up stiff resistance for several hours, but the fighting ended when the Thai dicator, Plaek Pibulsonggram, signed an armistice with Japan.

Thailand as a Member of the Axis Powers- (1941-1945)-Thailand and Japan formed an alliance December 21, 1941. On January 25, 1942, the Thai government declared war on the United States and the United Kingdom, thus becoming a member of the Axis Powers. The Thai ambassador to the United States refused to deliver the declaration of war and became a leader in Thailand's anti-Japanese resistance. Because of this, the United States did not declare war on Thailand. By the end of the war, Thai resistance forces numbered around 50,000 and were in opposition to the Japanese occupation.

Source: http://www.historygu...of_thailand.htm

Thanks for that info.

But how many thais were acting with the Japanese....more than 50000?

[cmsally]

There's a very good article on the internet called: "Nation-building and the Pursuit of Nationalism under Field Marshal Plaek Phibunsongkhram" .

Note the forming of the Yuwachon movement by Major General Prayoon Pramornmontri, and the incredible amount of cultural edicts issued as well as almost daily marches. It seems to be an interesting part of Thai history mostly swept under the carpet.

[kerryk]

Double post sorry.

Edited September 26, 2011 by kerryk

[kerryk]

Kerry K. You are the one rewriting history. You show me one document that Thais signed allied with Germany. All I stated was that the country signed a treaty with Japan after 1 day of fighting.

They allied with Japan to protect from being occupied. How is that rewriting history? If they had a secret agreement with Japan (like you state), then why did Thais die fighting them at the border?

Yes, Piboon supported the ideas of the Nazis, but that doesn't mean the populace did. He was a brutal leader but was liked by the populace for his defense of Thailand not for his hatred of the Chinese.

As per your belief in secret agreement with Japan prior to their invasion of Thailand, where did you read that?

I

Franco-Thai Border War (Jan. 9, 1941-Jan. 28, 1941)--Thailand, then an unofficial ally of Japan, initiated an invasion of French Indochina after early border skirmishes from November 1940. After early successes, the Thai forces were forced back by French reinforcements. At sea, the French navy, in the form of one cruiser, wiped out nearly one third of the Thai navy off the island of Kho Chang on Jan. 17. Japan arranged a cease-fire on Jan. 28. Per a written agreement signed on March 11, France gave portions of Laos and Cambodia to Thailand.

Japanese Invasion of Thailand (1941)--Japan, while hoping that secret negotiations with the Thai government would result in the right to free movement of Japanese forces in Thailand, invaded Thailand on December 8, 1941. Japan's goal was access to invasion routes to British-ruled Burma and Malaya. Thai forces put up stiff resistance for several hours, but the fighting ended when the Thai dicator, Plaek Pibulsonggram, signed an armistice with Japan.

Thailand as a Member of the Axis Powers- (1941-1945)-Thailand and Japan formed an alliance December 21, 1941. On January 25, 1942, the Thai government declared war on the United States and the United Kingdom, thus becoming a member of the Axis Powers. The Thai ambassador to the United States refused to deliver the declaration of war and became a leader in Thailand's anti-Japanese resistance. Because of this, the United States did not declare war on Thailand. By the end of the war, Thai resistance forces numbered around 50,000 and were in opposition to the Japanese occupation.

Source: http://www.historygu...of_thailand.htm

Thanks for that info.

But how many thais were acting with the Japanese....more than 50000?

Although the Thai resistance forces numbered 50,000 they never did anything. You would have expected they would have done something but they never did. They tried to provide intelligence but according to British notes, no one ever believed them as they didn't know which side they were really on. It was a confusing period of time. The Thai air force shot down American bombers while flying American planes and then picked up the downed airmen and repatriated them to OSS (CIA) guys staying in Bangkok under the noses of the Japanese.

On December 14 1941 Phibun signed a secret agreement with the Japanese committing Thai troops to participate in the invasion of Burma, One week later, on December 21, 1941, Phibun signed a formal treaty of alliance with Japan in front of the Emerald Buddha at Wat Phra Kaeo.

The Japanese throughout the war allowed the Thai army to function independently as they had promised by treaty. The Thai Phayap Army invaded Shan State, Burma was around 40,000 troops and support personal. Someone may have a more accurate number.

Edited September 26, 2011 by kerryk

[kerryk]

There's a very good article on the internet called: "Nation-building and the Pursuit of Nationalism under Field Marshal Plaek Phibunsongkhram" .

Note the forming of the Yuwachon movement by Major General Prayoon Pramornmontri, and the incredible amount of cultural edicts issued as well as almost daily marches. It seems to be an interesting part of Thai history mostly swept under the carpet.

No wonder Thais don't talk about it. Phibun had some really odd ideas. 1. Men kiss their wives in the morning. 2. Don't eat 5 times a day. 3. Don't eat with your hands. 4. Everyone wear a hat. 5. He also had radical ideas about women's clothes. Better to keep the whole thing under the carpet. Although most Thais don't realize what a fun country Thailand was before Phibun. They think Thais were conservative way back when. Actually Siam was anything but conservative.

Which is I guess the point of this thread. Thais just don't care as long as it is fun. And that was as much the case in 1920 as today.

Edited September 26, 2011 by kerryk

[weary]

Satire..... Not quite the same thing.... There is a fine line, sometimes difficult to judge, but not in this instance...

I also find it ironic when the countless people who claim this is wrong are the same one's that call their partner "Thai Wife" or refer to other western expats as Farrang. Or even worse call someone a Nazi this or that when the person is acting like a dictator. I remember not too long ago on this web some reference to Seinfeld's "Soup Nazi"

Sorry, but none of these examples of harmless or humorous language have anything to do with having school children dress up like Nazis and goose step around the campus.

I thought this was quite funny:

and this:

I do see a problem with the display, but still.

Is it reasonable that Western people get to decide what counts as satire or humour to Thais? It is obvious that humour differs between different cultural spheres. It's not uncommon to see the Buddha and other religious symbols being used in a way that is more or less desecrating in contemporary Western humour. That is ok in our society now - but it was certainly not OK before Voltaire and his mates came about. Point is that sacred objects and taboo subjects are different depending on time and place. We would all like to think our values and opinions are the truest representation of morality but it is clear that these things will keep changing, back and forth, and given enough time and distance, simply not be comprehended anymore.

[weary]

Also, I think some who have commented here have found the actual reason that the school allowed the display: it pleased leaders of the management that the children were mocking the red shirts.

[Ulysses G.]

We would all like to think our values and opinions are the truest representation of morality but it is clear that these things will keep changing, back and forth, and given enough time and distance, simply not be comprehended anymore.

I don't think that it has been long enough for Hitler to go out of "fashion" as a symbol of EVIL yet.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

Also, I think some who have commented here have found the actual reason that the school allowed the display: it pleased leaders of the management that the children were mocking the red shirts.

I think that is VERY doubtful.

[weary]

Consider the people portrayed. Thaksin is the only one that Thais will find truly relevant, and the others serve as a backdrop. Hitler and bin Ladin are both villain poster boys, and Mr Bean is an incompetent clown. So, how do we interpret the selection of people otherwise than as mockery of T. and the reds?

Do you suggest their display aimed at expressing serious anti semitism, or general support of nazi ideas like racial purity or something? Would they have included bin Laden and Mr Bean in such statements?

[Jingthing]

Consider the people portrayed. Thaksin is the only one that Thais will find truly relevant, and the others serve as a backdrop. Hitler and bin Ladin are both villain poster boys, and Mr Bean is an incompetent clown. So, how do we interpret the selection of people otherwise than as mockery of T. and the reds?

Do you suggest their display aimed at expressing serious anti semitism, or general support of nazi ideas like racial purity or something? Would they have included bin Laden and Mr Bean in such statements?

You're being silly. No my opinion is that they dressed as Nazis because they found that a FUN thing to do.

[weary]

I am sure they had fun while doing it.

Whether fun was the only motivation for doing it is another matter, and we won't settle that here, so I won't speculate anymore.

[huli]

according to my Thai wife, who attended the Sport's Day Parade and watched our daughter participate, the reason they were dressed as Nazis was as follows, only as follows. Due to the competition in the sports day, and different colors assigned to the different teams, the red guys decided to be Nazis because, to them, the Nazis symbolized "power". As in, we are a powerful team. That's as far as it went.

Since the Nazis lost, I wonder why they didn't think to be Allies, but then there's the red color....

[venturalaw]

according to my Thai wife, who attended the Sport's Day Parade and watched our daughter participate, the reason they were dressed as Nazis was as follows, only as follows. Due to the competition in the sports day, and different colors assigned to the different teams, the red guys decided to be Nazis because, to them, the Nazis symbolized "power". As in, we are a powerful team. That's as far as it went.

Since the Nazis lost, I wonder why they didn't think to be Allies, but then there's the red color....

It's good to finally have an explanation. Although the reasoning is moronic, at least we have an answer. Is it not the educators who are charged with guiding miss-guided students? Every time Thailand appears to be marginally recovering from the self-imposed downturn in tourism, they inevitably come up with another brilliant display to effectively ward off significant groups of potential visitors. Children allowed by 'educators' to chose Nazis to symbolize 'power'. Unbelievable.

[Jingthing]

Yes, I find the explanation credible, and as before, the blame for IGNORANCE belongs on the teachers and administrators. Not the students. They are there to learn from people who actually are supposed to know something.

The school officials should really make a public statement of apology. Of course they won't, because they probably still think they haven't done anything wrong. So they are likely to blame the f-rangs for messing with Thai affairs.

A few years ago the wax museum in Pattaya put up a big billboard with an image of Adolph Hitler to promote their business. The Israeli embassy complained the ad appeared to be glorifying Hitler, and the wax museum took down the ad, issued a statement of apology for offending, and that was that. This school could learn from them. Admit the error. Don't run from it or deny there was a problem with what they did. Move on.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Jingthing

[sbk]

Post deleted that appears to be an attempt to incite harassment. Don't repost.

[DavidOxon]

Post deleted that appears to be an attempt to incite harassment. Don't repost.

oops, sorry, thought it might break some rule.

[Payboy]

It's called freedom of expression.......

I wonder what they were intending to express.

Ignorance?