Sacred Heart Nazi Sports Academy

[Loaded]

I understand that it was 70 years ago and Thais know nothing about it (I keep repeating this but you seem to think you are in Tonbridge Wells).

Thai children perhaps know nothing about WWII, but in your opinion should not educators be knowledgeable, and as educators, perhaps pass said knowledge on to the students in the form of instruction so that said students do not remain as ignorant as you believe Thais to be? Just a thought.

I'm tired of repeating this: it means nothing to Thais (educators included). They know very little about it. History isn't a major subject at any Thai school, but the history they teach and are taught includes very little about the Western world. They learn that the Burmese are evil and the Kings are great. That's it.

What makes the nazi regime worse than the Japanese one or the Stalinist one at the same time. Both of those regimes acted as wickedly, if not more so, than the nazis. It matters to you because you, or people close to you, were affected by it.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Loaded

[uptheos]

I understand that it was 70 years ago and Thais know nothing about it (I keep repeating this but you seem to think you are in Tonbridge Wells).

Thai children perhaps know nothing about WWII, but in your opinion should not educators be knowledgeable, and as educators, perhaps pass said knowledge on to the students in the form of instruction so that said students do not remain as ignorant as you believe Thais to be? Just a thought.

How is that possible, when their educators were probably just as ignorant?

[Paagai]

So, do you expect us to all say EVERYTHING we are outraged with when discussing a specific thing??

No, and quit it with the sarcasm cos I think you got my point exactly.

But, just in case, to put it simply: I find the level of hysterical outrage as expressed on this thread, and now elsewhere, is totally disproportional to what was, at worst in my opinion, a stupid cultural misunderstanding.

If someone wants to be outraged about symbolism related to genocide, save that outrage for the here and now genocide mongers of today, where it might make a difference, rather than waste it on a bunch of schoolgirls in fancy dress! Whatever is said now about Nazi symbolism won't change the history of what happened (as bad and as worthy of remembrance as that is), whilst concentrating on what's going on in the world today just might.

The point is a general one, no where did I suggest this thread should be discussing Burma (which I used as an example) or any other places in the world where human rights abuse, and genocide goes on. I'm just saying that, in my opinion, the discussion here is disproportionate to the reality, given the world has bigger problems. Of course, that probably applies to most of Thai Visa

[uptheos]

Whatever is said now about Nazi symbolism won't change the history of what happened (as bad and as worthy of remembrance as that is), whilst concentrating on what's going on in the world today just might.

"Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it."

George Santayana

[Sparkles]

Rather than prolong this very sensitive issue by another opinion could I ask has there been any "official" response from the school? Its been in the national media and possible o/s as well and I would have though some statement from the school was well overdue or have I missed it ?

[Jingthing]

Rather than prolong this very sensitive issue by another opinion could I ask has there been any "official" response from the school? Its been in the national media and possible o/s as well and I would have though some statement from the school was well overdue or have I missed it ?

The school's principals did not want to comment about the incident, but a spokesman said: 'We did not know what the students had planned. No offence was intended.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2042097/Student-Nazi-dress-day-causes-outrage-Thailand.html#ixzz1Z8zMv63y

[mallmagician]

So, do you expect us to all say EVERYTHING we are outraged with when discussing a specific thing??

No, and quit it with the sarcasm cos I think you got my point exactly.

But, just in case, to put it simply: I find the level of hysterical outrage as expressed on this thread, and now elsewhere, is totally disproportional to what was, at worst in my opinion, a stupid cultural misunderstanding.

If someone wants to be outraged about symbolism related to genocide, save that outrage for the here and now genocide mongers of today, where it might make a difference, rather than waste it on a bunch of schoolgirls in fancy dress! Whatever is said now about Nazi symbolism won't change the history of what happened (as bad and as worthy of remembrance as that is), whilst concentrating on what's going on in the world today just might.

The point is a general one, no where did I suggest this thread should be discussing Burma (which I used as an example) or any other places in the world where human rights abuse, and genocide goes on. I'm just saying that, in my opinion, the discussion here is disproportionate to the reality, given the world has bigger problems. Of course, that probably applies to most of Thai Visa

I got your point exactly, and I apologise for the sarcasm. I just thought you were being self righteous suggesting that we all dont care about other injustice in the world. I think you'll find the reason that this thread got quite as much response as it has, is a testament to the morality we TV-ers share. Just because we dont discuss Burma on an unrelated thread, doesn't mean we dont care...

Please read my post above about what I didn't agree with about this whole Sacred Heart thing. It wasn't the dressing up so much as the handling of the matter by those in charge... I never expected it to become this huge thing with International news stories and the like. I just thought it was badly handled by the school by them approving it, and spoke volumes about the school and the lack of education of those that run it perhaps.

Again - for the point of clarity - I do NOT think that the kids are to blame, and I do not think offense was intended by ANYONE. But it simply was handled in a very poor way once those teachers knew what the theme was (Be it prior to the event or on the day itself).

[kamajava]

The ignorance of children.

I think kids costumes, this is a beautiful example.

And it's compiled for everyone to see.

While there is a secret to reveal.

Therefore, it is better to be sorry.

This event will not happen again.

I have to take care better in the future.

....... I'm sorry. I represent children with

If we knew in advance that the children would dress like this. It would have been prohibitive to the Etืea to anyone else.

We are really sorry. Actually

Next, we will provide information for these children, of course.

Edited September 27, 2011 by kamajava

[LivinLOS]

Hypothetical question: if the kids had dressed up in Burmese army uniforms and said they got the idea from Rambo 4, would any of the Farangs expressing "Outrage" have batted an eyelid, let alone mentioned it on TV, got it dragged up in the foreign press etc? I think not.

I find really hypocritical, people who can claim disgust and whip up such hysteria about the glorification of things that happened sixty years ago in another continent, and that are meaningless to those who live in our adopted country, yet completely ignore, and turn a blind eye to the genocide that is still taking place right now 200 clicks up the road from here.

If you are going to apply the principle of outrage, please apply it consistently. The numbers murdered by the regime in Burma may be less than killed in world war two, does that somehow make it more acceptable?

Burma is a terrible regime no doubt.. But its hardly 11 million dead, medical experiments and death camps either.

[mallmagician]

The ignorance of children.

I think kids costumes, this is a beautiful example.

And it's compiled for everyone to see.

While there is a secret to reveal.

Therefore, it is better to be sorry.

This event will not happen again.

I have to take care better in the future.

....... I'm sorry. I represent children with

If we knew in advance that the children would dress like this. It would have been prohibitive to the Etืea to anyone else.

We are really sorry. Actually

Next, we will provide information for these children, of course.

I think its great that an apology has arrived.

It could have been handled much better, but Im sure that lessons have been learnt by both staff, teachers, and students alike.

I too have learnt a lesson about the power of the media (Including ThaiVisa), as I never expected my post to cause this much publicity etc. I would probably approach the situation differently in future, as I feel bad for the students that are being blamed.

[uptheos]

The ignorance of children.

I think kids costumes, this is a beautiful example.

And it's compiled for everyone to see.

While there is a secret to reveal.

Therefore, it is better to be sorry.

This event will not happen again.

I have to take care better in the future.

....... I'm sorry. I represent children with

If we knew in advance that the children would dress like this. It would have been prohibitive to the Etืea to anyone else.

We are really sorry. Actually

Next, we will provide information for these children, of course.

I think its great that an apology has arrived.

Is that what it is?

I think it's garbage!

Who is going to provide those know nothing's with the information to pass on to the children?

Edited September 27, 2011 by uptheos

[LivinLOS]

Hypothetical question: if the kids had dressed up in Burmese army uniforms and said they got the idea from Rambo 4, would any of the Farangs expressing "Outrage" have batted an eyelid, let alone mentioned it on TV, got it dragged up in the foreign press etc? I think not.

I find really hypocritical, people who can claim disgust and whip up such hysteria about the glorification of things that happened sixty years ago in another continent, and that are meaningless to those who live in our adopted country, yet completely ignore, and turn a blind eye to the genocide that is still taking place right now 200 clicks up the road from here.

If you are going to apply the principle of outrage, please apply it consistently. The numbers murdered by the regime in Burma may be less than killed in world war two, does that somehow make it more acceptable?

Nail on head.

Too many farangs bring their cultural conditioning here and expect Thais to have the same conditioning. This is gross ignorance. The Nazis were evil. So was Stalin and Mao. It doesn't mean a thing to Thais.

Then why dress as figures of Evil ??

It meant something.. Otherwise they wouldnt have done it.

If what it meas is 'its a bit of a laugh' then good they cop a bit of education over what is or is not good taste and 'a laugh'..

[Berkshire]

If someone wants to be outraged about symbolism related to genocide, save that outrage for the here and now genocide mongers of today, where it might make a difference, rather than waste it on a bunch of schoolgirls in fancy dress! Whatever is said now about Nazi symbolism won't change the history of what happened (as bad and as worthy of remembrance as that is), whilst concentrating on what's going on in the world today just might.

The point is a general one, no where did I suggest this thread should be discussing Burma (which I used as an example) or any other places in the world where human rights abuse, and genocide goes on. I'm just saying that, in my opinion, the discussion here is disproportionate to the reality, given the world has bigger problems. Of course, that probably applies to most of Thai Visa

One of the few sane posts on this subject. Last I checked, there has not been a rash of schoolgirls in Thailand dressed up in Nazi uniforms. I have not heard Nazi fueled rhetoric by anyone in any shape or form, or any Thai person advocating the Nazi agenda. There has not been even one incidence of Thai racist skinheads roaming our streets yelling "white power" (or perhaps "Thai power"--who the <deleted> knows). Back in my home country (America), some government municipalities still fly the confederate flag, an extremely offensive and hateful symbol to certain Americans--now that is deliberate and mean. What these little girls are doing is perhaps misguided--or in bad taste--but certainly not at all malicious or racist or anything else. Talk about political correctness to the extreme.

[mallmagician]

The ignorance of children.

I think kids costumes, this is a beautiful example.

And it's compiled for everyone to see.

While there is a secret to reveal.

Therefore, it is better to be sorry.

This event will not happen again.

I have to take care better in the future.

....... I'm sorry. I represent children with

If we knew in advance that the children would dress like this. It would have been prohibitive to the Etืea to anyone else.

We are really sorry. Actually

Next, we will provide information for these children, of course.

I think its great that an apology has arrived.

Is that what it is?

I think it's garbage!

I think its an attempt by a non-English speaking representative from SHC.

In whatever form, the apology is there (here), so its a good thing I think.

Its a shame that the students are still being blamed, but I guess that official line will not change.

[Jingthing]

An official statement from the school administration is called for.

[uptheos]

The ignorance of children.

I think kids costumes, this is a beautiful example.

And it's compiled for everyone to see.

While there is a secret to reveal.

Therefore, it is better to be sorry.

This event will not happen again.

I have to take care better in the future.

....... I'm sorry. I represent children with

If we knew in advance that the children would dress like this. It would have been prohibitive to the Etืea to anyone else.

We are really sorry. Actually

Next, we will provide information for these children, of course.

I think its great that an apology has arrived.

Is that what it is?

I think it's garbage!

I think its an attempt by a non-English speaking representative from SHC.

In whatever form, the apology is there (here), so its a good thing I think.

Its a shame that the students are still being blamed, but I guess that official line will not change.

That's WHY it's just plain garbage!

The school should take the blame squarely on the shoulders, not the kids.

[LivinLOS]

There has not been even one incidence of Thai racist skinheads roaming our streets yelling "white power" (or perhaps "Thai power"--who the <deleted> knows).

Dunno.. What do you think the anti Burmese ant Cambodian attitudes are ?? I would call them pretty xenophobic myself.

Thai Rak Thai.. Roaming the streets.. Burning the capital.. nah none of that could happen.

[Jingthing]

Good point about why Thais and all people should learn about how the Nazi third reich came to power. Similar evil movements can happen in any country, in any era.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Jingthing

[PlanetX]

I am sure that its safe to assume a large majority of westerners don't know how the third reich came to power either

They recognize the swastika symbol and are taught to fear/ loathe/ discard it but understanding the principles of using the fear of terror and an undefined enemy probably doesnt hold much weight...

They should be taught how the Reichstag fire led to the Enabling Act which gave Hitler unprecedented powers as well as the ability to suspend civil rights during a national emergency. It is also fascinating to read the reports of possible Nazi involvement in the actual fire, a possible "inside job" or cover-up. I am sure very few would recognize the term Homeland Security and understand its German origin "heimatland" which Hitler seized on and made a cornerstone of his policies

Edited September 27, 2011 by PlanetX

[Paagai]

Whatever is said now about Nazi symbolism won't change the history of what happened (as bad and as worthy of remembrance as that is), whilst concentrating on what's going on in the world today just might.

"Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it."

George Santayana

Oh I agree, as I said, "as bad and as worthy of remembrance" I'm not suggesting what the Nazis did should be forgotten, nor should the lessons from that period of history. But it is just that, history. You can't change the past, but you can influence and change the future.

[PlanetX]

Whatever is said now about Nazi symbolism won't change the history of what happened (as bad and as worthy of remembrance as that is), whilst concentrating on what's going on in the world today just might.

"Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it."

George Santayana

Oh I agree, as I said, "as bad and as worthy of remembrance" I'm not suggesting what the Nazis did should be forgotten, nor should the lessons from that period of history. But it is just that, history. You can't change the past, but you can influence and change the future.

CERN is suggesting that particles can move faster than the speed of light so don't be too confident in your understanding of reality/ time/ space

Edited September 27, 2011 by PlanetX

[OriginalPoster]

I'm tired of repeating this: it means nothing to Thais (educators included). They know very little about it. History isn't a major subject at any Thai school, but the history they teach and are taught includes very little about the Western world. They learn that the Burmese are evil and the Kings are great. That's it.

I think that this doesn't give Thais enough credit. Many farangs, especially retired ones, only come into contact with less educated, often village raised, Thais and assume that's representative of Thai society. That's about as reasonable as visiting the US and assuming that the kid who pumps your gas at a Shell station in Kentucky is representative of Americans. I mentioned this case to a group of roughly 30 to 40 years old Thai engineers today and they also were impressed by the stupidity of the school's administrators & teachers. They certainly had heard of WWII, and had no difficulty understanding that even if the uniforms were worn as satire that it wasn't going to look good when pictures of the event started showing up in the internet. Now, maybe they aren't representative of Thailand either, but I'd rather assume that Thais have basic cognitive abilities than that they are simpletons.

[Jingthing]

I'm tired of repeating this: it means nothing to Thais (educators included). They know very little about it. History isn't a major subject at any Thai school, but the history they teach and are taught includes very little about the Western world. They learn that the Burmese are evil and the Kings are great. That's it.

I think that this doesn't give Thais enough credit. Many farangs, especially retired ones, only come into contact with less educated, often village raised, Thais and assume that's representative of Thai society. That's about as reasonable as visiting the US and assuming that the kid who pumps your gas at a Shell station in Kentucky is representative of Americans. I mentioned this case to a group of roughly 30 to 40 years old Thai engineers today and they also were impressed by the stupidity of the school's administrators & teachers. They certainly had heard of WWII, and had no difficulty understanding that even if the uniforms were worn as satire that it wasn't going to look good when pictures of the event started showing up in the internet. Now, maybe they aren't representative of Thailand either, but I'd rather assume that Thais have basic cognitive abilities than that they are simpletons.

I do not believe those school kids dressed as Nazis as an expression of satire.

[transam]

Rather than prolong this very sensitive issue by another opinion could I ask has there been any "official" response from the school? Its been in the national media and possible o/s as well and I would have though some statement from the school was well overdue or have I missed it ?

The school's principals did not want to comment about the incident, but a spokesman said: 'We did not know what the students had planned. No offence was intended.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz1Z8zMv63y

So who at the school looked at the project and decided TO FINANCE IT.

[OriginalPoster]

I'm tired of repeating this: it means nothing to Thais (educators included). They know very little about it. History isn't a major subject at any Thai school, but the history they teach and are taught includes very little about the Western world. They learn that the Burmese are evil and the Kings are great. That's it.

I think that this doesn't give Thais enough credit. Many farangs, especially retired ones, only come into contact with less educated, often village raised, Thais and assume that's representative of Thai society. That's about as reasonable as visiting the US and assuming that the kid who pumps your gas at a Shell station in Kentucky is representative of Americans. I mentioned this case to a group of roughly 30 to 40 years old Thai engineers today and they also were impressed by the stupidity of the school's administrators & teachers. They certainly had heard of WWII, and had no difficulty understanding that even if the uniforms were worn as satire that it wasn't going to look good when pictures of the event started showing up in the internet. Now, maybe they aren't representative of Thailand either, but I'd rather assume that Thais have basic cognitive abilities than that they are simpletons.

I do not believe those school kids dressed as Nazis as an expression of satire.

Nor do I, that wasn't my point. But actually we don't know what they were intending to express, do we? All we really know is that they did not make any statements, political or otherwise, to explain their actions. Most seem to be assuming that the students did it because of ignorance, or fashion, or both and that the administrators of the school were similarly ignorant and apolitical. But that is just an assumption based upon stereotypes of Thai society.

[Paagai]

I do not believe those school kids dressed as Nazis as an expression of satire.

Maybe they'd just been watching "Inglorious Basterds" and thought the Nazi's were the cool underdogs? Just one example of a film where the humour and irony in it would probably be lost or easily mis-interpreted.

Without an education in the history to put world war II in context, watching some of the many, many world war two movies out there could lead Thai kids to believe the Nazis were glamorous heros and fun to imitate. Especially, if the subtitling or dubbing into Thai looses some of the meaning. Add to that a bit of Mr Bean and they probably think it's all good clean fun and, unless someone tells them otherwise, could easily perceive the nazis as the good guys.

I think you have to view the whole big picture of what Thai's see of the west and western history through the eyes of movies and TV. Not just what goes on in the class room.

[transam]

I do not believe those school kids dressed as Nazis as an expression of satire.

Maybe they'd just been watching "Inglorious Basterds" and thought the Nazi's were the cool underdogs? Just one example of a film where the humour and irony in it would probably be lost or easily mis-interpreted.

Without an education in the history to put world war II in context, watching some of the many, many world war two movies out there could lead Thai kids to believe the Nazis were glamorous heros and fun to imitate. Especially, if the subtitling or dubbing into Thai looses some of the meaning. Add to that a bit of Mr Bean and they probably think it's all good clean fun and, unless someone tells them otherwise, could easily perceive the nazis as the good guys.

I think you have to view the whole big picture of what Thai's see of the west and western history through the eyes of movies and TV. Not just what goes on in the class room.

Perhaps you are right but it shows the school principles are complete fuc_king idiots as many kids parents who finance the school are farangs.

[katana]

Few more pics of the sports day from Prachatai:

http://www.prachatai.com/journal/2011/09/37093

Lots of banners draped over the school, I guess the teachers must have had some warning what was coming...

[rebo]

Based on this article http://prachatai.com/journal/2011/09/37093 and especially the first picture in it I can only come to the conclusion that some conservative, yellow-minded, probably influential parents (It’s a private school …!)/ teachers simply misused their children / students and their sports day to make some propaganda against the red government.

For me it’s clear that adults must have been involved; imagine only the tens of thousands of Baht for all the stuff needed.

I wonder that I did not read a single similar theory in any of now almost 1’000 posts in the two existing threads. Is it that absurd?

[Paagai]

Based on this article http://prachatai.com/journal/2011/09/37093 and especially the first picture in it I can only come to the conclusion that some conservative, yellow-minded, probably influential parents (It’s a private school …!)/ teachers simply misused their children / students and their sports day to make some propaganda against the red government.

For me it’s clear that adults must have been involved; imagine only the tens of thousands of Baht for all the stuff needed.

I wonder that I did not read a single similar theory in any of now almost 1’000 posts in the two existing threads. Is it that absurd?

I thought my hint

with this post was a strong enough suggestion along those lines.......

Edited September 27, 2011 by Paagai