Thai Student Nazi Dress-Up Day Causes Outrage

[StreetCowboy]

So are you equating the wearing of the swastika with the wearing of the turban?

SC

No, not me. But, if there are people that will kill a Sikh man for wearing a religious turban (or for what the turban means to the killer), then I think there are people who would do harm to a man for wearing a religious swastika.

I think that the man was killed because the murderer was an enraged maniac. I am sure he had worn the turban many times before and not been killed, so that was probably not the root cause. On the other hand, one might wear a straight points-anticlockwise swastika, as a symbol of one's heritage, or through error a clockwise-points 45 degree swastika on a white circle with a red background and be killed through your own mistake by a lunatic who could not tolerate symbols of Nazi Germany. Neither lunatic is better or worse than the other, but to recklessly and ignorantly wear symbols that might attract antipathy could be considered reckless. Where I came from, it was generally banned from wearing football colours in the pub not so much because people wearing colours were likely to attack others (though they were) but that they were more likely to be attacked. Remove the victims, and the villains become more obvious when the trouble starts. Remove the provocation, and there is no excuse.

On the other hand, one has a right to wear the symbols of one's religion (indeed, in some cases, the obligation)

SC

[funcat]

So are you equating the wearing of the swastika with the wearing of the turban?

SC

No, not me. But, if there are people that will kill a Sikh man for wearing a religious turban (or for what the turban means to the killer), then I think there are people who would do harm to a man for wearing a religious swastika.

I think that the man was killed because the murderer was an enraged maniac. I am sure he had worn the turban many times before and not been killed, so that was probably not the root cause. On the other hand, one might wear a straight points-anticlockwise swastika, as a symbol of one's heritage, or through error a clockwise-points 45 degree swastika on a white circle with a red background and be killed through your own mistake by a lunatic who could not tolerate symbols of Nazi Germany. Neither lunatic is better or worse than the other, but to recklessly and ignorantly wear symbols that might attract antipathy could be considered reckless. Where I came from, it was generally banned from wearing football colours in the pub not so much because people wearing colours were likely to attack others (though they were) but that they were more likely to be attacked. Remove the victims, and the villains become more obvious when the trouble starts. Remove the provocation, and there is no excuse.

On the other hand, one has a right to wear the symbols of one's religion (indeed, in some cases, the obligation)

SC

R>>>I>>>P

[WhingeingMoaners]

I feel nothing whatsoever regarding this incident, but I quite enjoy hearing Farangs express their vehement anger towards these Thai kids. A lot of these farangs seem to assume that the locals spend their day-to-day lives with nothing better to do than think about how to antagonise foreigners in Thailand. Get real. They don't have spare time for that.

I am sure there will be this kind of incident again and I am looking forward to seeing the overreactions by western expats in Thailand. I thought you people advocated freedom of expression. Talk about hypocritical.

[siamiam]

I think anyone that tells you a points-clockwise 45 degree black swastika in a white circle on a red background is a sanskrit symbol of beneficent meaning is being duplicitous.

Especially when combined with Nazi uniforms and pictures of Hitler.

SC

If combined with other paraphernalia, then yes I would agree. But otherwise, The 45 degree swastika is what I have seen on ancient coins, etc. Swastikas on red backgrounds can be seen in religious contexts. As far as the white circle goes, I can't say for sure if the armbands I was commenting on had them. In any event, without the additional paraphernalia, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I suppose one mark of an adult is someone who is willing to accept that he does not need to argue with people who do not share his opinion. I believe the right-facing points are distinctive, but on the other hand, the person wearing the emblem may not be aware of that distinction. While doing my 15-second research I noted that the Wikipedia entry for "Swastika" notes that it is seen as a Nazi symbol in western cultures. Having said that, Nazi German uniforms are presumably seen as symbols of Nazi Germany worldwide, so that point was irrelevant to my earlier discussion.

Perhaps one of the great learning opportunities from this event is the understanding that Western European culture has its roots in far deeper and more remote origins, and that we are the children of other worlds as much as we are the mentors of their children. No-one seems to have picked up on my first learning opportunity, so perhaps that was a lesson that we are not yet ready to learn

SC

I've had the discussion about the Svastika vs Swastika for about 20 years now' posted something already here and it's been done to death on this thread but one last time (?) because I have such high regard for SC's posts:

The Svastika was used facing both directions by Jains and Hindus and others.

A svastika is a swastika, just like Siva is (with the Kharoshti diacritical mark which is often not transliterated into English texts) Shiva. The diacritical mark being similar to an ' after the S.

There are svastikas from the ancient world that look identical to those that the nazi's used. These devices were, in addition to the Jains and Hindus, used by Buddhists and other even more ancient religions, as evidenced by their occurrence on the earliest 'Greek' coins from Lydia and Ionia. This speaks to SC's statement, quoted above. It is interesting that the 'svastika' device is found in Lydia-Ionia and the Indus Valley centuries before Alexander the Great made his campaigns. It is older than Buddhism and may have a Vedic origin. But, it could also have originated further west.

[Jingthing]

I feel nothing whatsoever regarding this incident, but I quite enjoy hearing Farangs express their vehement anger towards these Thai kids.

Excuse me, but I haven't noticed anyone expressing anger at the Thai kids. Reading the thread might help.

[siamiam]

No, not me. But, if there are people that will kill a Sikh man for wearing a religious turban (or for what the turban means to the killer), then I think there are people who would do harm to a man for wearing a religious swastika.

I think that the man was killed because the murderer was an enraged maniac. I am sure he had worn the turban many times before and not been killed, so that was probably not the root cause. SC

The turban was how the killer identified his victim as being an evil Muslim, just like the ones that he thought had attacked New York (he murdered the Sikh before the 9-11 attackers identities had even been confirmed). That is by his own admission. Yes, that Sikh man had worn his turban in public before 9-11 without any problem. Just as a person could have worn a svwastika among Jewish people without problems, before 1920.

Just in case anyone is unsure: Sikhs are not Muslims and are not an offshoot of Islam.

[Kananga]

I feel nothing whatsoever regarding this incident, but I quite enjoy hearing Farangs express their vehement anger towards these Thai kids.

Excuse me, but I haven't noticed anyone expressing anger at the Thai kids. Reading the thread might help.

and even if there was, why would this grown adult enjoy hearing other adults expressing anger towards innocent children? What a strange and unpleasant hobby.

[Jingthing]

Haven't we heard enough about non-Nazi swastikas already? The topic is clearly about students under supervision of a Catholic school wearing German Nazi Hitlerian Third Reich style costumes and parading about. That was completely unambiguous.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Jingthing

[siamiam]

Haven't we heard enough about non-Nazi swastikas already?

Probably. Therefore, I will sign off of this thread by leaving you with the following link...

http://www.cngcoins....x?CoinID=177015

My friend Siva tells me that the bull is really Nandi. Hmm...

[WarpSpeed]

Actually I did watch this strange move in English about a past famous Portuguese or Spanish explorer that was instrumental in Thai history but can't remember much more even though I found it interesting enough to see it twice.

Won't go off on a lengthy off topic tangent but that would be Constantine Phaulkon (who later became Chao Phraya Wichayen -- Chao Phya was an extremely high rank in the Royal Court) . He was Greek.

I don't think so this guy was an explorer and diplomat and I'm certain he was either Spanish or Portuguese based on his dress.. I believe it was Duarte Fernandes around the time of King Rama II..

[MaxYakov]

I feel nothing whatsoever regarding this incident, but I quite enjoy hearing Farangs express their vehement anger towards these Thai kids. A lot of these farangs seem to assume that the locals spend their day-to-day lives with nothing better to do than think about how to antagonise foreigners in Thailand. Get real. They don't have spare time for that.

I am sure there will be this kind of incident again and I am looking forward to seeing the overreactions by western expats in Thailand. I thought you people advocated freedom of expression. Talk about hypocritical.

Yup, I agree. They antagonize Farangs without even spending time thinking about it. :jap:

[Kananga]

I feel nothing whatsoever regarding this incident, but I quite enjoy hearing Farangs express their vehement anger towards these Thai kids. A lot of these farangs seem to assume that the locals spend their day-to-day lives with nothing better to do than think about how to antagonise foreigners in Thailand. Get real. They don't have spare time for that.

I am sure there will be this kind of incident again and I am looking forward to seeing the overreactions by western expats in Thailand. I thought you people advocated freedom of expression. Talk about hypocritical.

Yup, I agree. They antagonize Farangs without even spending time thinking about it. :jap:

Love it!

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

Maybe someone can send a DVD to this school.

Maybe someone can send a history teacher.

[473geo]

Perhaps one of the great learning opportunities from this event is the understanding that Western European culture has its roots in far deeper and more remote origins, and that we are the children of other worlds as much as we are the mentors of their children. No-one seems to have picked up on my first learning opportunity, so perhaps that was a lesson that we are not yet ready to learn

SC

Just interested if this was your first learning opportunity...SC

In a previous post SC said

"If I was trying to get people to follow my wishes, I would explain slowly, carefully and politely the negative consequences of what they were doing now, and how they would benefit from following a different course of action that I could offer.

If I wanted to assuage my own ill-feelings of weak inadequacy, I would go off the deep end about how wrong they were. Especially if other people joined in."

[Beetlejuice]

I feel nothing whatsoever regarding this incident, but I quite enjoy hearing Farangs express their vehement anger towards these Thai kids. A lot of these farangs seem to assume that the locals spend their day-to-day lives with nothing better to do than think about how to antagonise foreigners in Thailand. Get real. They don't have spare time for that.

I am sure there will be this kind of incident again and I am looking forward to seeing the overreactions by western expats in Thailand. I thought you people advocated freedom of expression. Talk about hypocritical.

I don`t agree.

I think that girl in Nazi uniform knew exactly what she was doing, and if were her teacher, I would lay her across my knee and give her a darn good spanking.

[FOODLOVER]

Probably it is not Mr Bean but José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero the Prime Minister of Spain ?

Check the sieg heil hand of the proposed of Senor Zapatero's rendition.

oh yes, he's making devil's horn, hmmmm.

That's a longhorn he is a University of Texas alum! Hookem Horns baby !!

[Scott]

One inflammatory post has been deleted. Please stick to the topic of the thread, not the posters.

[SteeleJoe]

I've had the discussion about the Svastika vs Swastika for about 20 years now' posted something already here and it's been done to death on this thread but one last time (?) because I have such high regard for SC's posts:

The Svastika was used facing both directions by Jains and Hindus and others.

A svastika is a swastika, just like Siva is (with the Kharoshti diacritical mark which is often not transliterated into English texts) Shiva. The diacritical mark being similar to an ' after the S.

There are svastikas from the ancient world that look identical to those that the nazi's used. These devices were, in addition to the Jains and Hindus, used by Buddhists and other even more ancient religions, as evidenced by their occurrence on the earliest 'Greek' coins from Lydia and Ionia. This speaks to SC's statement, quoted above. It is interesting that the 'svastika' device is found in Lydia-Ionia and the Indus Valley centuries before Alexander the Great made his campaigns. It is older than Buddhism and may have a Vedic origin. But, it could also have originated further west.

Yes. I know.

[siamiam]

Yes. I know.

SJ, I didn't mean it to look like I was giving you a history lesson, though I can see now that my quote of your post may have done so. I meant my info for general readers. I am not a scholar of the subject, just someone with a casual interest who has spent some time reading the scholarly works of others. Cheers

[cmsally]

timestamp='1317314028' post='4731965']

[quote name=katana'

Another pic in Khaosod.

http://www.khaosod.c...HdPUzB5T1E9PQ==

Google translate of the final paragraph of the lengthy article accompanying the Khaosod pic. The article included the full text of the Director's apology email/letter, in Thai, of course:

Mr. Chin Bhumirat Secretary-General of Basic Education (Kpฐ.), the seminar declaring that the history of each country. Sensitive in the body. Whether it is ethnic politics, so when this happens. Basic Education Commission (Spฐ.) to enjoin the school encourages students to learn the history of science, especially the ethnic groups. The case history of Nazi conflict. Or its leader, Adolf Hitler would have to explain the pros and cons as well. By following the expression of students. Must be in the care of teachers. They might see only the outer shell. Or as a fashion look. Do not see what the expression to the feelings of anyone. This is a lesson to schools across the country have charged a lot of catching up. It's much closer to ASEAN. We will need to be. History of this country as much or even more. Important to know that every story has both advantages and disadvantages. What must be expressed to the extent appropriate.

The article seems pretty fair and one wonders whether the ministry is satisfied with the school apology.

It basically says how complicated history can be and schools must take more care with historical issues. Teachers must able to provide guidance. They must be able to look at the pros and cons of each aspect of history and not just take the symbols as a fashion statement. Things should be covered by an aspect of what is decent and polite. This is especially important as Thailand becomes closer to ASEAN and needs to know more of each country's history.

I think the fact that this has happened close to "International Education Hub" has not been missed.

[FOODLOVER]

I love that the sole male is hovering about 8 inches above the ground.

Are you sure he is the only biological male in this photo?

[Thai at Heart]

Haven't we heard enough about non-Nazi swastikas already? The topic is clearly about students under supervision of a Catholic school wearing German Nazi Hitlerian Third Reich style costumes and parading about. That was completely unambiguous.

I agree. The debate between non-nazi swastikas and nazi swastikas is completely and utterly irrelevant. If the nazi's had addopted Micky Mouse as their emblem, I somehow doubt we would be watching him on cartoon time anymore.

As an aside though are swastikas still used in modern day religion? There are many websites cataloguing their use in many parts of the world as late as the early 20th century, as good luck charms, and then it appears that lo and behold they disappeared. Why? Because the symbol became so connected with Nazis that their use became essentially offensive. It maybe a shame, but that's life.

People who aren't ignorant, know that if you see a swastika in a temple it doesn't suggest nazism, but put it in a white background with a red surrounding, with jack boots, moustaches and nuremburg rally banners it means a completely different thing, and if people claim there is any ambiguity, they are essentially proving their ignorance. Now, there is true ignorance, which is always possible, but in this day and age, do you really believe that students in a supposedly private school with adult teachers are ALL 100% ignorant of nazism?

If they are completely ignorant I pity the students, and condemn the teachers and the school. If they did this with any degree of knowledge of what a parade like this means, then god help the students and the teachers, and us. Either way a very worrying indictment of what is going on in that school.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Thai at Heart

[StreetCowboy]

I love that the sole male is hovering about 8 inches above the ground.

Are you sure he is the only biological male in this photo?

Sole as in hover shoes

SC

[FOODLOVER]

Haven't we heard enough about non-Nazi swastikas already? The topic is clearly about students under supervision of a Catholic school wearing German Nazi Hitlerian Third Reich style costumes and parading about. That was completely unambiguous.

I agree. The debate between non-nazi swastikas and nazi swastikas is completely and utterly irrelevant. If the nazi's had addopted Micky Mouse as their emblem, I somehow doubt we would be watching him on cartoon time anymore.

As an aside though are swastikas still used in modern day religion? There are many websites cataloguing their use in many parts of the world as late as the early 20th century, as good luck charms, and then it appears that lo and behold they disappeared. Why? Because the symbol became so connected with Nazis that their use became essentially offensive. It maybe a shame, but that's life.

People who aren't ignorant, know that if you see a swastika in a temple it doesn't suggest nazism, but put it in a white background with a red surrounding, with jack boots, moustaches and nuremburg rally banners it means a completely different thing, and if people claim there is any ambiguity, they are essentially proving their ignorance. Now, there is true ignorance, which is always possible, but in this day and age, do you really believe that students in a supposedly private school with adult teachers are ALL 100% ignorant of nazism?

If they are completely ignorant I pity the students, and condemn the teachers and the school. If they did this with any degree of knowledge of what a parade like this means, then god help the students and the teachers, and us. Either way a very worrying indictment of what is going on in that school.

"If the nazi's had addopted Micky Mouse as their emblem, I somehow doubt we would be watching him on cartoon time any more".

So true

[Nisa]

A Jewish human rights organization (, Simon Wiesenthal Center

) on Monday called for Thailand's Christian leaders to condemn a parade at the Sacred Heart School in Chiang Mai, Thailand, in which participating students wearing Nazi uniforms performed "Sieg Heil" salutes.

I wonder if they realize that less than 1% of the population in Thailand is Christian or if they are as ignorant to issues outside their own world as these kids.

[Thai at Heart]

Haven't we heard enough about non-Nazi swastikas already? The topic is clearly about students under supervision of a Catholic school wearing German Nazi Hitlerian Third Reich style costumes and parading about. That was completely unambiguous.

I agree. The debate between non-nazi swastikas and nazi swastikas is completely and utterly irrelevant. If the nazi's had addopted Micky Mouse as their emblem, I somehow doubt we would be watching him on cartoon time anymore.

As an aside though are swastikas still used in modern day religion? There are many websites cataloguing their use in many parts of the world as late as the early 20th century, as good luck charms, and then it appears that lo and behold they disappeared. Why? Because the symbol became so connected with Nazis that their use became essentially offensive. It maybe a shame, but that's life.

People who aren't ignorant, know that if you see a swastika in a temple it doesn't suggest nazism, but put it in a white background with a red surrounding, with jack boots, moustaches and nuremburg rally banners it means a completely different thing, and if people claim there is any ambiguity, they are essentially proving their ignorance. Now, there is true ignorance, which is always possible, but in this day and age, do you really believe that students in a supposedly private school with adult teachers are ALL 100% ignorant of nazism?

If they are completely ignorant I pity the students, and condemn the teachers and the school. If they did this with any degree of knowledge of what a parade like this means, then god help the students and the teachers, and us. Either way a very worrying indictment of what is going on in that school.

"If the nazi's had addopted Micky Mouse as their emblem, I somehow doubt we would be watching him on cartoon time any more".

So true

You got me there.

[djlest]

This happened 4 years ago

It is not news... We read this story years ago...

[Thai at Heart]

A Jewish human rights organization (Simon Wiesenthal Center) on Monday called for Thailand's Christian leaders to condemn a parade at the Sacred Heart School in Chiang Mai, Thailand, in which participating students wearing Nazi uniforms performed "Sieg Heil" salutes.

I wonder if they realize that less than 1% of the population in Thailand is Christian or if they are as ignorant to issues outside their own world as these kids.

As of 2008, there were 315 Catholic educational institutions in Thailand -- 311 schools, two colleges and two universities with28,495 teachers, according to the Catholic Education Council of Thailand. These institutions they serve more than 500,000 students, mostly Buddhists, the predominant religious group in the country.

http://www.heraldmalaysia.com/news/Catholic-schools-programs-for-poor-students-little-known-2398-0-1.html

At 1% of the population, it would suggest they aren't getting much bang for their buck. But continue to try they will.

[Payboy]

<snip> A lot of these farangs seem to assume that the locals spend their day-to-day lives with nothing better to do than think about how to antagonise foreigners in Thailand<snip>.

Actually,it's the not "thinking" thats the problem here.

[otherstuff1957]

^^^^ No, that was a different school in Bangkok that did almost the exact same thing 4 years ago.

Thewpaingarm School in Bangkok - 2007

Sacred Heart School in Chiang Mai - 2011.

Edited September 30, 2011 by otherstuff1957