Bisexual Vs Gay

[Scott]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with quite a few of you. I doubt very much that sexuality occurs on a continuum. Bisexuality does exist, however, it is probably much less common than most people think.

When we are in early adolescents, sexuality is quite fluid and many are more likely to have sexual encounters which are same-sex. At some point the majority cross over to heterosexual orientation and never look back. Their sexual orientation is pretty well fixated by the mid 20's. By this time most people are either straight or gay and unlikely to engage in any other sexual behavior under normal circumstances.

It's a little like being left/right handed. Very few people are really ambidexterous. It doesn't mean they they can't use the other hand, but it does mean that under normal circumstances.

There is a lot of cultural and social messages and injunctions which make the issue more difficult and harder for everyone to accept.

I have known a large number of "bi" men over the years. With the exception of one, all were gay men who were deathly afraid of being "queer". The other was really a straight man who had been sexually abused as a teenage boy, entered a phase of male prostitution and was just totally confused--he would sleep with men, for money, other favors etc, but given any kind of a choice he would sleep with women. If he has any spare money, he would pick up a bar girl.

[ProThaiExpat]

Spot on Scott!!!

[Ijustwannateach]

A good model of sexuality needs to explain the fluidity of sexuality among the young (which seems to happen in many societies) without discounting their feelings- when I was 15, I really, really, really was attracted to girls- it wasn't just a fluke or misdirected feeling towards guys- and it needs to explain the "fixing" of sexuality later in life, which I agree seems to be a pattern in almost every society. However, is this "fixing" based on the pressure of society to have stable relationships, or is it actually something genetic? If the societal pressures were taken away (a situation that would be almost impossible to simulate) would the "fixing" phenomenon vanish?

Kinsey's survey (which raised the issue of a spectrum) was a good catalog of TOTAL experience, but as far as I'm aware he didn't try to map the changing emphases of sexual experience based on an individual's age.

It's hard to get good research done on this type of issue, for the obvious reasons of politics and confidentiality.

"Steven"

[Scott]

The fluidity and fixation of sexuality probably has a lot to do with genetic influences. No doubt social and cultural influences also affect these things, but they are less influencial.

In young adolescents the release of the hormones is not well controlled--either by the body or by an experienced mind who knows what's going on. Thus, they find themselves turned on by almost anything or more precisely, find themselves turned on, regardless of what/who is around. Since it is the end of the Latency period, when males are more likely to associate almost exclusively with other males, (and females with females), sexual experiences tend to occur in that context--thus male-male. It's not only opportunistic, but also comfortable--it occurs with our friends.

Also remember, almost every society has also taken measures to "protect" girls from males. By the time we reach the age of sexual activity, they really usually aren't very available for any whimsical play.

During adolescents, once our brain gets used to the rush of chemicals and associated feelings, the sexual urges become more directed, i.e., certain things are a turn on others aren't. That doesn't mean that we won't engage in some activity that we know "feels good", but it isn't necessarily what we are looking for.

Somewhere in those early to mid 20's we are pretty well fixated. Heterosexual men will usually pretty actively shy away from homosexual men and when looking for something, they are looking for female companionship.

[zzap]

Well, not sure about this.

What is the argument about genes? I haven't read anything which explains how genes fix sexual orientation, any links?

I have come across people with a fixed sexual preference (including their teens) and some who have fluctuated in their life. Some of this has been explained by societal demands and peer pressure, I am curious what part genes play in this.

Personally, I believe it is really a sliding scale from hetero to bi to gay, rather than either this or the other.

[Scott]

Zzap, sorry I guess what I said was misleading. I don't think genes are particularly important in determining sexual orientation--they may play a part, but probably not a significant part. I think the movement of a more fluid sexuality toward a more fixated sexuality occurs due to genetic factors (as well as others).

It probably wouldn't be in the interest of the species to have us continue to be fluid.

At any rate, whatever causes the fixation of all kinds of behavior and tendencies are probably the same ones that cause our sexual interest to go one way or the other.

[PeaceBlondie]

Scott, I'm not sure I'm reading you well. Are you suggesting that the vast majority of Western males (or all males in the world) fool around with other males in their adolescent years, in a serious way, for a couple of years? I got the impression that pubertal groping was usually not very involved - for example, maybe no kissing, no penetration, etc. I managed to contact one of my earliest 'fooling around' partners from age 12, and I told him it was a very significant experience for me. He said no, it was just experimentation for him. He's straight, and I'm gay, but I played the straight role for the next three decades.

Just my humble opinion.

[toptuan]

On a slight tangent, I notice that most Filipinos in gay chatrooms call themselves "bi". (Of course, I visit there only for the cross-cultural intellectual stimulation).

After getting further down the "chat road" with them, I find out they're really gay, but want to leave their options open--especially with the Asian family pressures to have a wife and family.

So, under the "bi" self-labeling, many of them do the hetero marriage thing to satisfy society and family, but carry on gay relationships for 95%-100% satisfaction of their physical/emotional needs.

Not unheard of in western societies, but seems to be even more so in Asian circles, particularly in the Philippines. Anyone else come across this? Agree/disagree?

[toptuan]

P.S.

Of course, then there's Thailand. I've been flirted with and "hit on" by more "straight" Thai guys (most of them married, with families) in my few years here, than in all my previous five decades in the West (never once there, incidentally).

Once, going into a Mowlam concert up in Isan, I was "felt up" more than necessary by a policeman at the entrance gate who was checking for weapons, in the semi-darkness (no, it wasn't wishful thinking--this guy was a major masseuse-at-the-gates for the few farang attendees.). By chance, I happened to see him jump into his pickup truck with his wife and family after the concert (sigh).

It's not easy being a 50-ish, overweight, big-nosed, bespeckled, balding sex symbol. You'll just have to understand our expat plight here in LOS (Land Of Seduction).

[Ijustwannateach]

Nice to have you on the forum, Top... some good posts here.

"Steven"

[OlRedEyes]

Interesting to read the opinions from 'virtually everyone is bi' to 'virtually no-one is bi' to 'bi does not exist'.

My personal opinion would have to be expressed in a long desertation. and I'm a lazy sod when it comes to writing, so I wont.

I would however say that the enjoyment of sex and sexuality is much like anything else. The degree and scope of enjoyment and acceptance depends to a large extent on your own boundaries and ability to accept that it's totally ok to enjoy something. Ingrained societal guilt feelings (hope u know what i mean ) and defined roles play an important role in how you experience anything.

I think human sexuality is much more fluid than we like to acknowledge. The young like to experiment, then in their 20's-40's they mostly accept and settle in society's boxes. I like to think that later on many start challenging those definitions, and start experimenting with a more open mind.

Personally, I have no desire to hug or kiss a man. Not 'soft' enough. Love females, mind, body and sexuality. Also love male company, sexuality and sex. The criteria is not whether it is male or female. It is the mind.

Love never comes into the equation - to me love is not an issue anymore, and being able to step aside from it frees one from the monster of jealousy, as well as thousands of other complications. Friendship is the way to go.

Taking into consideration that I am male, understand and get along on many levels better with males, work better with males in business etc, it would make much more sense for me to live with a male as a partner, and share whatever females happen to come along. Long term it will be more peaceful, prosperous and solid. The problem is finding someone who doesn't want to live in a box.

But i am certainly not gay.

Edited December 12, 2005 by OlRedEyes

[Ijustwannateach]

One thing I find interesting when non-homophobic straight guys post honestly about this issue (as above) is that it's not usually a matter of the sexual equipment available but quite often the overall body style- I've heard completely straight or straight-leaning-bi guys talk about how they prefer the softness of a woman, or the smoother skin (different hormones I suppose) or the different characteristic body odours.... A few of them still zero in on breast size and so forth, but it's a lot less common than you'd think.

"Steven"

[OlRedEyes]

You may be right to an extent, thinking about it. I could enjoy a male's sexual equipment if the body style is not too hard and and hairy, amongst other things

The head though, is only to talk to

[ThaiPauly]

I was abused by a much older guy who I thought was a freind when I was 15.

I knew very little about sex when I was that age. I was lured into a situation that the guy must have been planning for a long time, in a house with other men.

I slept in the same bed as him without giving it a second thought.

When I was falling asleep he started to touch me. I did not really know what was happening or why?

I realised after a few minutes that what he was doing was wrong and that I did not like it.

Luckily for me I suppose the outcome could have been a lot worse, he let it go.

I did not say anything to my parents, but they were concerned that I had this freindship with someone 10 years older than me, but I never said anything to them about the indident. My "Freind" never contacted me again and disappeared from the scene. I can't really remember now even where I met him, I was sure he also had a girlfreind.

I have never had sex with a Man, but I would not say that I never fantasise having oral sex with a man.

Does this make me bi-sexual?, or am I a latent bi-sexual?

[Ijustwannateach]

Abuse of friendship for sexual reasons is just that, abuse- it's too bad that it happens either to men or women for whatever reason. It has nothing to do with bisexuality or otherwise. Sounds like your friend was unwise and immature at a number of levels, and being 10 years older really should have known better.

It can be very confusing when one is young, however. When I was a freshman in college (about 17yo) and not really yet "out" to myself or anyone [i had had a girlfriend and a semi-erotic experience with one guy which had left me very confused), a group of friends and I took a spring break road trip. We were all sharing beds in a hotel room to save money. While I was asleep- without even realising it (I had no memory of it the next morning)- I started trying to make out with the guy sharing my bed, who wound up sleeping on the floor and had a lot of questions for me the next day (when I found out what had happened). That was when I really had to start confronting myself about what I wanted.

Fortunately, time, experience, and age have taken the edge off my teen horniness, and I no longer (to my knowledge) try to feel up people who are just friends when I sleep with them.

"Steven"

[ProThaiExpat]

ThaiPauly: In your fantasy, are you receiving the oral sex from a man or giving it?

[SiSipJet]

I am a bisexual guy and I will tell you why. I am a very open guy who like sex very much, I have gay men friends and growing up with them so I never had any bad feeling about gay men.

But I never had sex with a man when I was young because of the pressure of the Christian society I happend to live in my part of the world. Now my society is no longer run by religion and the people here are more and more open mind so people are also more open mind about sexe.

So why I can say I am a bi man? because I have casual sex with man both bi or gay and with couple with man and a women wich man is bi also. Those are easy to find in my part of the world since more and more people are open about sex.

Now some of you will say that I am gay but no I am not since I can't think living with a man and I am still looking for a female partner to live with since I became single 2 years ago.

I love women and living with them but for men it's only for casual sex.

What I found in those experiences of sex with a man is that not all gay men like to have sex with a bi men but the majority of them like it so I always make a point to the gay man that I am bi and not gay.

I am also very open about sex with my female living partner, if the next one is totally straight I will be hetero only when living with her and since I don't have sex with a other partner outside a relationship I will be living a straight life with my girlfriend.

Don't get me wrong here, if my new girlfriend is open to have sex with a other man or woman with our couple I will enjoy it to.

In Thailand for most part I have sex mostly with women because my two experiences with men were not that good because they were straight guys working in the sex trade but I found out they were only doing it for the money and they did not like sex with a man at all.

I also met a European couple in Phuket and we had sex every night for a week and I enjoy it a lot and both of them also.

[Plus]

There are only two parts to sex - male and female.

The problem is that these two sides are mixed freely across the whole range of species. Everything else is consequential.

The man, as truly a man, will not give anything to a woman. He's supposed to recieve all the favours.

I bet Bambina will prefer a more "female" type of man who can give a nice cunnilingus.

What perplexes me is gay men who accept blowjobs from men only, and who would not make a one ######ing move to satisfy their partner. Actually I am talking about this one huge Latino man who gets all but gives nothing, the one I've seen in a video. I know it's a movie, an adult movie, but still...

Do these gay men really exist?

Also, an erected penis is a big turn on for nearly everyone, gay, bi, or not. Straight people get a turn on, but they don't nesessarily think of sucking on it.

That brings me to my confession. I can't think of this thread as anything else but confessions, at least for not overtly gay men.

When I want sex I'll ###### anything that moves. As female part of me plays up, I'll give satisfaction to anything that appreciates.

I was in a whorehouse once and the rumor spread around, and the owner came up to me with his **** dangling out. He thought if his girls get an oral workout he might just as well get one to himself. The idea of gay/straight/bi hasn't crossed his mind. Male/female difference was all that he needed.

To farther emphasize - // remainder edited out as objectionable and against TV rules.

ChrisP Mod

[Ijustwannateach]

#47: One way of thinking might have it that anyone who says he is bi is bi. Some gay men try to dispute that any bis exist; all I know is that I had an on-and-off relationship with a college roommate who is now happily married to a woman.

I recently read an interview with Dan Savage (famous for his Savage Love advice column) in which he had an interesting point: he felt extremely sorry for straight men (at least in the west) because to be a modern straight guy seems to be defined by negatives: you DON'T sleep with guys, you DON'T act like a gay guy or a woman, and if you even once get it on with a guy and enjoy it you must be gay, even if you date women the rest of your life. If a gay guy sleeps with a woman and has fun, nobody disputes that he can still be gay.

Now, in Thailand, the straight men don't seem to be tarred with this rather homophobic brush quite as much- they can and do fool around with each other, kathoeys, etc., and still manage not to be stigmatised forever. I don't hear Thai guys labelling themselves as bi- perhaps a Bi guy in Thailand is just a kind of sexually flexible straight guy.

"Steven"

[thaibebop]

I say sexuality is like a spectrum. Everyone will fall some where inbetween the two extremes. The terms Gay and Straight are just there because we as humans have to catalog the world to feel comfortable with it. Of course, this just could be my own thing, because I also believe that gay and straight are not or should not be defined by physical sex.

[englishoak]

So where do the Katoeys fit in to this realm ?. I mean I have never managed to figure which side they get a lot of their business from?. I suspect it's more from the straight crowd as a couple of my gay mates said "thats realy not our thing"

I think that a lot of the ladyboys are very lovely but knowing he's a guy just turns me off. I mean are they classified as bi or what ?

[jdinasia]

Here they are considered another gender ....

in the west they'd be onsidered transgendered ... different sexuality ... but could be transgendered and think of themselves in any of the realm of Gay-Bi-Str8

[thaibebop]

So where do the Katoeys fit in to this realm ?. I mean I have never managed to figure which side they get a lot of their business from?. I suspect it's more from the straight crowd as a couple of my gay mates said "thats realy not our thing"

I think that a lot of the ladyboys are very lovely but knowing he's a guy just turns me off. I mean are they classified as bi or what ?

I don't it's them that needs to be looked at here but the people who like them. Ladyboys dress like ladies, so I think more straight men do find them attractive simply because they are attracted to the shape, sound, look, whatever of women. I mean let's face it. People don't go out with people because thy have attractive genitals. We don't see that until later. So, we go by what we see before that. Gay men like men so they will be attracted to those people who look like men. I would say that the same can be said of ladyboys. They will either be attracted to the female form or the male form and thus this will help anyone who feels the need to define them as gay or straight.

[englishoak]

I agree. So how does that define the customers? I would have to say it seems a bisexual thing ( if they are aware at the time she's a he)

[jdinasia]

Does it really matter?

[thaibebop]

I agree. So how does that define the customers? I would have to say it seems a bisexual thing ( if they are aware at the time she's a he)

I have thought about this and I am not sure. Although, I think the men that sleep with ladyboys should still be considered mostly straight. I say this for two reasons:

1. Having gay sex doesn't make you gay, or vice versa.

2. They are sleeping with them because they look like ladies, so they are still straight in that regard.

Does it really matter?

No, but it's something fun to think about and discuss. Why? What do you want to talk about?

[BambinA]

I have thought about this and I am not sure. Although, I think the men that sleep with ladyboys should still be considered mostly straight.

im on your side

guys who has sex with ladyboy or post operation transwoman , they are straight coz they click with feminine side

[thaibebop]

I have thought about this and I am not sure. Although, I think the men that sleep with ladyboys should still be considered mostly straight.

im on your side

guys who has sex with ladyboy or post operation transwoman , they are straight coz they click with feminine side

Right. I think most people can see this, regardless of what sex they are speaking of, if they take away all male/female references when they list the physical characteristics that they are attracted to. In this way many people, both man/woman, will fit somewhere within those decriptions.

[englishoak]

guys who has sex with ladyboy or post operation transwoman , they are straight coz they click with feminine side

Agreed

Asid from the mistaken identity and post ops. I conclude the remainder go for the chick with a stick out of either curiosity or the simple fact that there is a bi tendancy. Can't call it latent gay because it's just too feminine.

Does it really matter?

Does anything on this site

[Guest endure]

We've got an employee at our local supermarket that's been going through the change for the past couple of years. Unfortunately she ain't no katoey - more like a brickie with a badly made wig