Schwab Atm Fees In Thailand?

[Pib]

I last used my Schwab Visa debit card on 15 Nov to withdraw from an AEON ATM. No 150 baht fee nor any additional fee by Schwab...checked my account just a few minutes ago.

Same goes for my State Farm Visa debit card which is a 0% foreign transaction fee card and reimburses any ATM fees also. I last used it in an AEON ATM yesterday....no 150 baht fee or any other fee...just checked my account.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Stickman was kind enough to share some of the details from his Aussie friend with me...

In summary, they were three ATM transactions from September and early October in Lampang. The online banking line items don't say "AEON" but list the transactions only as "PLUS ATM Transaction Fee." And in each case the charge is exactly $5 AUS, in addition to separate percentage based foreign currency charges assessed by the home country bank. The emailer told Stickman the three transactions were from AEON ATMS.

My response, based on that info, was that if the $5 AUS charges really originated in Thailand with AEON, then they wouldn't have been exactly $5 AUS for each of the three withdrawals he had detail on, since the Thai baht-Aus dollar exchange rate varied considerably on the three days of the three withdrawals. Just like the 150 baht Thai bank fee for those who pay it always works out to be a slightly different amount in U.S. $, $4.98,. $4.96, etc etc.

The Aussie emailer claims several Aussie banks told him that the $5 AUS charge came from Thailand, not them.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

BTW, in case it might be any help to others in unraveling this, here's the info that was emailed to Stickman... It doesn't contain any personal banking info related to the Aussie who emailed it, but does recount the transactions that showed up in his online banking in Australia.

The "Fee from Thailand" references in bold were added by the sender based on the advice he got from his Aussie bank... Those notations weren't part of the online banking ledger info.

As I mentioned above, I'm strongly believing the $5 AUS fees didn't originate in Thailand with AEON. If they had originated in Thailand with AEON, they almost certainly would have been charged originally in Thai baht and then converted to AUS dollars. And that, given the daily varying exchange rates, would have resulted in a slightly different AUS $ fee amount each time, even if the original THB baht charge was the same.

The flat and unchanging $5 AUS fee each time, to me, strongly suggests that fee isn't originating with AEON... apart from the fact that the rest of us who use AEON ATMs regularly aren't seeing any such fees.

Edited November 20, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I think I have the answer here, and it's not about AEON.

Stickman's emailer reported the following:

I mean that if you use aeon atm's with an debit card from an Australian bank you will be charge this fee. the ANZ, Commonwealth and Westpac banks have told me that this fee is from Thailand and not from them.

When I look tonight at the ANZ bank web site and check their fee documents, I see the following for ANZ's VISA Plus debit card. $5 AUS flat fee for international ATM withdrawals plus a 3% foreign currency fee -- exactly what Stickman's Aussie emailer was charged.

That's the fee charged by ANZ to its own customers... not by AEON or any other Thai bank. Perhaps the emailer either misunderstood his bank reps or they were giving him a line of bull...

The full ANZ pdf document on their VISA debit card fees backing up what I've reported is here... The excerpt above came from page 13 of that file.

http://anz.com.au/documents/AU/feecharge/VisaDebitPDS_DL_54688.pdf

In looking through other ANZ fee documents online, their $5 flat fee plus 3% on foreign ATM withdrawals appears to be a pretty standard condition of their accounts.

So yes, another false report regarding AEON, which still doesn't charge a fee for using its ATMs.

[JimGant]

My response, based on that info, was that if the $5 AUS charges really originated in Thailand with AEON, then they wouldn't have been exactly $5

Exactly.

The Aussie emailer claims several Aussie banks told him that the $5 AUS charge came from Thailand, not them.

When it comes to fees, bank clerks can be clueless, or at least not clued-in by management. But a flat fee is a lot more obvious than a percentage fee, so I find it a little hard to believe that several Aussie banks couldn't account for the $5 AUS flat fee. (But, I guess, its closeness in exchange value to the 150 baht fee, which Aussie banks certainly see in all but Aeon transactions, could account for the error. But maybe not.....)

If there's to be a fee, it will be reported on the ATM slip, at least per the Bangkok Bank example, below:

And even if not separately reported, the total withdrawal will reflect the 150 baht. Absent that, no fee present.

Where all the problems on identifying fees exist is with your issuing bank. For example, on the transaction shown above -- for a total of 25,150 baht -- my USAA bank statement (shown below) simply provides the *total* dollar cost to me ($831.14), including the Cirrus 1% foreign transaction fee passed on ($8.23). So I have to do the math, and subtract the $8.23 foreign transaction fee, to determine the rate before fees, i.e., $822.91.

How to see if there might be some hidden fees? Well, in this case, I used a Cirrus ATM card on 8 Feb, around 1:00 PM. But since the MC/Cirrus website doesn't change their rates until early evening, Thai time (Visa changes earlier, around noon), I used the exchange rate for 7 Feb. This was reported as 30.562. Low and behold, 25150 divided by $822.91 = 30.562. You're not going to do any better than the reported network rate. Thus, no hidden fees (which a lower rater would have indicated).

My Schwab account (which I showed in an earlier post) also doesn't report the baht amount, only total dollars debited. But, as there's no foreign transaction fee assessed or passed-on, the math is straightforward. I just have to remember to add 150 baht to what I pulled out of the ATM machine -- if that machine wasn't Aeon. Then, do the division -- and compare with the number from the Visa site. But, the only clue (without doing the math) that I had a 150 baht fee added to the total dollars debited -- was the refund several weeks later for that 150 baht, at the end of the month.

[it's nice that Schwab can identify the 150 baht fee, and automatically refund. USAA does do a refund, but can't (or doesn't try) to see the fee. Thus, I had to scan the above ATM slip and send it to them. Then I got a refund.]

I did my Schwab card ATM withdrawal from AEON yesterday, and it's already posted to my Schwab account.

--Exchange rate on my AEON withdrawal of 30.88 baht to the U.S. $ [The exact rate from the Visa site, thus NO hidden fees.]

End result; AEON ATMs are not charging the 150 baht withdrawal fee... Period.

Amen.

Now as a long time opponent of AEON and having conclusively proved (to myself) that there was never an advantage in using them, than I'm not surprised.

Read all the above again -- slowly.

[Pib]

When I look tonight at the ANZ bank web site and check their fee documents, I see the following for ANZ's VISA Plus debit card. $5 AUS flat fee for international ATM withdrawals plus a 3% foreign currency fee -- exactly what Stickman's Aussie emailer was charged.

That's the fee charged by ANZ to its own customers... not by AEON or any other Thai bank. Perhaps the emailer either misunderstood his bank reps or they were giving him a line of bull...

A reoccurring theme seen in many ThaiVisa posts regarding ATM fees where the ATM in Thailand is blamed for all the fees hitting their home country bank account, when it fact it's the home country bank applying fees; fees that are sometime titled to imply it's not really their fee but just a fee that was passed along from the ATM. U.S. telephone bills are bad about applying monthly fees which are purely a telephone company fee but the company gives it name like it's a federal/state/county government fee/tax.

Unfortunately, the majority of banks now days do apply foreign transaction fees but there are still banks out there that don't....a person just needs to find them and switch to that bank if possible. That's what I did earlier in this year when opening Schwab Bank and State Farm Bank accounts primarily to get their no foreign transaction fee Visa debit cards with ATM fee reimbursement...but I'm a good boy and don't want to kill the Golden Goose and just use AEON ATMs which do not charge a foreign transaction fee.

In closing, and to use the "unfortunately" word again, it appears many folks just don't know (nor have taken the time) to know what fees their bank charges for various transactions such as foreign transaction fees associated with foreign point of sale and ATM transactions....then they get fee shock.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I agree Pib... It's a case of bank customer BEWARE!..

I remember coming to Thailand for the first time years ago, and simply using my BofA U.S. debit card for ATM withdrawals and purchases (long before the 150 baht Thai banks' withdrawal fee arrived) and thinking, wow, isn't international banking easy and great...

And then getting the shock of my life when I logged onto my BofA online banking at some point and saw THREE separate charges for each single ATM withdrawal... the amount of my debit, a flat $5 fee and what at the time I believe was a 3% foreign currency fee added on. And then I said wow, not so great.

But I was an international newbie back then, so at least I had some excuse. Someone who's a recurring visitor to Thailand or elsewhere ought to know better.

BTW, as regards finding no fee accounts for international travel, U.S. folks seem to be relatively blessed. Although most if not all of the U.S. major mega banks have pretty hefty foreign currency and use fees, the U.S. banking industry is so big and competitive that there are still a fair number of different no fee choices available to Americans.

Brits have it more limited, have lost a couple no fee banks in recent years, but still have a couple available to them.

Aussies, which I'd presume have a smaller banking market than Britain, may have even fewer if any no fee choices for international use. I don't think I've seen/heard of an Aussie banking option that provides no fee banking when abroad. Be interesting to hear from any Aussies on this point.

[JimGant]

MTH, I saw this from you on another thread, several months old:

One drawback is that it's limited to $500 per withdrawal and $1000 in a 24 hour period at an ATM.

Talked to Schwab briefly and it seems that I cannot up the limit

Hmmmm. Well, your posted amount, above, shows $500.81. Does that mean the limit has been upped for you? (Or does $.81 get rounded down?)

As you saw in my posting, I withdrew over $800 per pull with my Schwab card. Can't remember if I asked for a raise in limit.... I believe now it's $1000 per pull -- don't know what it is per day....

Can anyone else comment? Thanx.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Jim, when I've asked Schwab about this in the past as regards their High Yield checking acount, their answer has been $1000 U.S. per 24 hours for ATM withdrawals, and $1500 per 24 hours for POS.

I keep a note of those kinds of limits for all my various accounts, because otherwise there's no way to remember the variations from each one individually.

I can't recall whether those amounts are the defaults for the account, but I think they likely are. Since those amounts wouldn't have been the ones I would have asked for myself if I had any choice.

I'm trying to recall, though, whether some folks also have Schwab cards that are linked directly to their brokerage accounts, instead of the checking account. I can't speak to the limits on cards linked to the brokerage accounts.

[JimGant]

I'm trying to recall, though, whether some folks also have Schwab cards that are linked directly to their brokerage accounts, instead of the checking account. I can't speak to the limits on cards linked to the brokerage accounts.

Ah, maybe that's it. MTH said his card was linked to his brokerage account... I just thought you had to have a linked checking account in order to get the Debit/ATM card.

You'd think, if Schwab wanted to save on ATM reimbursements, they'd up the limit -- and reduce the number of flat fees via fewer number of pulls required.

[MTH]

Jim, I read somewhere that my card was limited to $500 per withdrawal and $1000 per 24 hours. So I usually try to pull close to the equivalent of $500 when I use an ATM. I have been close to $10 over a few times, but assumed that due to exchange rates, a slight excess wouldn’t raise any flags and deny the transaction. Have never tried to pull more at one time, however have been declined once when I tried to withdraw more than $1000 in a 24 hour period.

When I talked to Schwab about raising the limit, I was calling customer service from over here. I actually called about another issues and asked this in passing. I don’t remember the actual answer, it might have been that I had to do it writing and could not do it over the phone.

And yes my card is directly linked to my brokeragae account.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Ya, I'm not entirely clear about that with Schwab... To have a High Yield checking account with them, you have to also open a linked brokerage account, although you don't have to do anything with the brokerage account or even keep more than $1 in it...

However, I seem to recall reading comments here from Schwab account holders in the past who said they had Schwab cards linked to the cash balance in their brokerage account.

I've never asked Schwab about that myself, since having one Schwab card linked to the checking account has always been more than enough for me.

It makes me wonder, though, whether that issue might have anything to do with some Schwab account holders talking about getting immediate ATM fee reimbursements, while others (myself included) typically get those credited at month's end.

I guess I should ask Schwab about a brokerage account linked card next time I'm talking with them.

Seeing MTH's answer above, I suppose there are some folks who ONLY have the Schwab brokerage account for various reasons, and weren't interested in or having any need for the checking account.

Edited November 21, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

BTW, keep in mind that some Thai bank ATMs will only dispense 25 bills per transaction, meaning the maximum they'll do is 25,000 baht, or in other words, less than $1,000 -- no matter what limit your home bank imposes.

We had a thread at one point where another member posted the Thai bank bill limits per transaction, and it seems to me from memory there were 3 or 4 different bill limit amounts depending on which Thai bank's ATMs were involved. From memory, I want to say the AEON ATMs had one of the higher bill limits.

[Pib]

I've used my Schwab debit card several times to pull 30,000 baht from AEON ATMs which was just under $1000 USD based on the currency exchange at the time. According to their debit card booklet the daily ATM limit is $1000. I would look it up in the little booklet again but I'm still evacuated from my Bangkok home due to the flooding. Floods suck but my Schwab and State Farm Visa debit cards which are 0% foreign transaction fee cards don't suck....they work great.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

According to their debit card booklet the daily ATM limit is $1000.

Yep, that's consistent with my info for the Schwab checking account debit card daily ATM limit as well..

[MTH]

Ya, I'm not entirely clear about that with Schwab... To have a High Yield checking account with them, you have to also open a linked brokerage account, although you don't have to do anything with the brokerage account or even keep more than $1 in it...

However, I seem to recall reading comments here from Schwab account holders in the past who said they had Schwab cards linked to the cash balance in their brokerage account.

I've never asked Schwab about that myself, since having one Schwab card linked to the checking account has always been more than enough for me.

It makes me wonder, though, whether that issue might have anything to do with some Schwab account holders talking about getting immediate ATM fee reimbursements, while others (myself included) typically get those credited at month's end.

I guess I should ask Schwab about a brokerage account linked card next time I'm talking with them.

Seeing MTH's answer above, I suppose there are some folks who ONLY have the Schwab brokerage account for various reasons, and weren't interested in or having any need for the checking account.

As my debit card is linked directly to my brokerage account, I'd say this make sense.

I get reimbursed immediately for ATM fees, if there are any, and have always been.

Others that have mentioned end of month reimbursements, seems to all be withdrawing funds from their checking account.

JimGant was also curious about this the other day.

This could also explain the difference in maximum pull per ATM transaction, $500 vs. $1000 .

I currently don't have a Schwab checking account. However that might change, (been using BofA for checking, but been thinking about cancelling that account, due to their new fee structure and minimum account balance requirements).

[vagabond48]

I have the high yield checking and high yield savings debit cards. The HY checking has a $1000 ATM limit per day while the HY savings has $500. With a phone call, both cards ATM limit can be increased to $4000 each for approx. 24 hours, allowing you to withdraw a max of $8000. I did this a couple of times this year while in China. As I understand, the max can be increased beyond $4000, subject to a manager's approval but I didn't bother to try since I had both cards with me.

[fletchsmile]

Bank with a US bank, and the least of your worries is a THb 150 baht fee. Schwab as a bank draw from the same cess pit as Goldman Sachs and MF global in terms of employees. Until recently Schwab used MF Global to outsource certain activities. Go figure.

Barge pole. US financial system. Don't touch. Make your own sentence

That MF Global has stolen from client accounts and broken the rules. Do you think Schwab is any different? If so why?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Fletch, now you've really gone off the deep end... without water wings...

Schwab is one of the best providers of banking services for U.S. expats to be found, and many of us have banked with them for years without any problem. And their customer service typically is first rate.

Not to mention that all bank deposits with them are fully insured by the U.S. government up to $250,000 per individual, and that's apart from the separate coverage provided for brokerage accounts.

Your comment above is almost like saying all of Europe is a financial cess pit, Euro failing, countries potentially dropping out. Well, now that I think about it... Hmmmm