Do You Consider Thailand A Neutral Environment ...

[Jingthing]

I realize this is probably a case by case thing but in general do you consider Thailand a place where people from countries which are at war back home can safely break bread, rice, tea, or whatever?

For example, as a bizarre example, if next week, war broke out between Italy and Finland, would Finns in Thailand feel as if visiting an Italian restaurant (run by Italians) would be OK, or a possible site of conflict? If some Italians randomly boarded a baht bus filled with Finns, would it be cool?

Obviously, Finland and Italy aren't going to war. But some countries may be soon, and many of their nationals live in or visit Thailand a lot. So it's not as flippant or theoretical a topic as I fear some may perceive it.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Jingthing

[ExpatJ]

Yes perfectly safe- heck, even during WW2 when nationals of the warring countries met anywhere they mostly got on very well and helped each other on a person to person basis. In fact, i would even say that using your example, a Finn and an Italian sitting next to each other in a bar would be more likely to connect and get on very well IF there countries were at war than otherwise. Can quite easily imagine sitting over a beer bemoaning who crazy our goverments are, how sad that our soldiers are dieing over there while we enjoy life here etc etc.

Edited November 18, 2011 by ExpatJ

[Jingthing]

Yes perfectly safe- heck, even during WW2 when nationals of the warring countries met anywhere they mostly got on very well and helped each other on a person to person basis. In fact, i would even say that using your example, a Finn and an Italian sitting next to each other in a bar would be more likely to connect and get on very well IF there countries were at war than otherwise. Can quite easily imagine sitting over a beer bemoaning who crazy our goverments are, how sad that our soldiers are dieing over there while we enjoy life here etc etc.

Are you really sure about that?

I think nationals tend to get more nationalistic when there is an active war on.

But thanks for being the one person replying.

[StreetCowboy]

I used to drink in a pub that was shared with possible sanction-busters and the contracting arm of the American military regime in Iraq. They never talked to each other, though, as far as I could tell.

My colleagues decided to stop staying in that hotel for fear of terrorist attack. And the alternative was the same price, with bigger rooms and closer to the office; we still drank in the same pub, though. Which reminds me of the last time that I was there, apparently, after suffering a few pints of degaussing fluid a the Indian pub that sold the cheapest beer we found in town....

The current American war doesn't really engender identifiable enemies; I think their aim is simply to destabilise certain areas of the world, without actually declaring a war that would be actionable as an act of aggression against another member of the UN.

SC

[Jingthing]

You hit on an important part of it, identifiable nationals. The potential war I am thinking about now involves Iran and the USA. Plenty of identifiable Iranians and Americans in Thailand.

[phaethon]

It's easy enough to steer clear of Americans, just avoid anyone with a Canadian lapel pin.

[smokie36]

I'm puzzled as to why you think there will be a war with Iran. The people there certainly aren't interested.....maybe it has more to do with piping out Afghan oil than anything else?

As to any personal conflict...well I think Americans are usually more easily identifiable than your average Iranian...!

[Jingthing]

As to any personal conflict...well I think Americans are usually more easily identifiable than your average Iranian...!

Maybe I'm more sophisticated than average. I know what Farsi sounds like. It is very distinctive. It's not rocket science.

Please DO NOT make this a discussion about this specific potential war and whether/why it may or may not happen. The fact is wars do happen, more will happen in future, and their nationals will encounter each other in Thailand.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Jingthing

[StreetCowboy]

I'm puzzled as to why you think there will be a war with Iran. The people there certainly aren't interested.....maybe it has more to do with piping out Afghan oil than anything else?

As to any personal conflict...well I think Americans are usually more easily identifiable than your average Iranian...!

I think he's planning two wars; an Eastern front with Iran and a Western front with the US. Or maybe vice versa.

I've never found myself close to crossing fists with either Americans or Iranians, unless that bloke that knocked my gogs off in the Russian bar was Iranian, but I think he was an arab. Oh, and the bloke in the Tavern once. I explained to him that we had a special relationship, but that British people had a certain perception of personal space that they liked to maintain. He didn't seem to understand, so I explained it with this analogy.

"Britain really has only one friend in South America, and that's Argentina. They play rugby, they play polo, they probably play cricket. But when they put troops on their so-called Malvinas, we said 'eff off off our Falklands' and we sank the Belgrano"

"I know exactly what you mean"

"I don't think you do. I mean 'get your <deleted> hand off my shoulder'"

I had a lovely evening drinking with an Iranian lady in the same pub I mentioned earlier, before the Russian girls got there. She was on her way to the opticians (suddenly, everything becomes clear!)

SC

[DP25]

I never interact with anyone who the US has or is likely to go to war. I've had problems with some Europeans though who think any contact with an American is a good opportunity to start ranting, and a few who were openly hostile. It's less frequent since Obama but it'd come back fast if Iran gets bombed.

[Jingthing]

Let me put it another way.

If my country was in active war with another country, a real war with lots of dead people on both sides (as opposed to an invasion kind of war like Iraq which is not a classic direct conflict) I would understand that the other country has lots of lovely people, BUT I would realize many of those lovely people may be fired up by normal nationalism that occurs in such situations. It wouldn't matter if I personally supported the war or whether a person from the other country personally supported the war, loyalty to your own country during times of mortal conflict is normal human nature.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Jingthing

[StreetCowboy]

Interestingly enough, the IRB considered Thailand a suitable neutral (or maybe 'home for the Japanese') venue for hosting the Asian Five Nations, when Japan was suffering from tsunami. I went to see Japan v Khazakstan, after the Thailand Taiwan game, at the National Stadium. Taiwan went back up, Malaysia came down, the ROC joined us all from Division 3, so I assume next year we (Thailand and Malaysia - and Iran, if I'm not wrong) will be playing in China.

SC

[smokie36]

As to any personal conflict...well I think Americans are usually more easily identifiable than your average Iranian...!

Maybe I'm more sophisticated than average. I know what Farsi sounds like. It is very distinctive. It's not rocket science.

Please DO NOT make this a discussion about this specific potential war and whether/why it may or may not happen. The fact is wars do happen, more will happen in future, and their nationals will encounter each other in Thailand.

No probs...I understand. Its all about the towels.

[StreetCowboy]

As to any personal conflict...well I think Americans are usually more easily identifiable than your average Iranian...!

Maybe I'm more sophisticated than average. I know what Farsi sounds like. It is very distinctive. It's not rocket science.

Please DO NOT make this a discussion about this specific potential war and whether/why it may or may not happen. The fact is wars do happen, more will happen in future, and their nationals will encounter each other in Thailand.

No probs...I understand. Its all about the towels.

I've just remembered another time, when I belted an American chap in the chops for interfering with my kilt, as I recall, though that recollection is a bit out of focus (not for want of an optician); anyway, he took it in the mild-mannered manner in which it was intended...

But I was thinking about the towels, and I had never understood that till I went to Phuket. Anyway, there was hotel towels on EVERY sun lounger, so I assumed that the hotel staff had put them there. This German lady came up to us, and said "These are OUR sun loungers" "I think you'll find they are ours" "But we put our towels here" "I think you'll find these are hotel towels" "Oh - I have never met ANYONE so rude" "You are lucky. Have a nice day". I really object to people pissing on lamp posts to mark territory, but if they're going to do it they should stake their own piss, not the hotel's. Had the towel been marked "Frau Fritz" I might have sat somewhere else. Its not as if there were not plenty of other empty sun loungers she could have had; someone had even, very kindly, put towels on them all....

SC

(I'm sure Naam will not be offended, since he never goes to public pools...)

[smokie36]

I've just remembered another time, when I belted an American chap in the chops for interfering with my kilt, as I recall, though that recollection is a bit out of focus (not for want of an optician); anyway, he took it in the mild-mannered manner in which it was intended...

But I was thinking about the towels, and I had never understood that till I went to Phuket. Anyway, there was hotel towels on EVERY sun lounger, so I assumed that the hotel staff had put them there. This German lady came up to us, and said "These are OUR sun loungers" "I think you'll find they are ours" "But we put our towels here" "I think you'll find these are hotel towels" "Oh - I have never met ANYONE so rude" "You are lucky. Have a nice day". I really object to people pissing on lamp posts to mark territory, but if they're going to do it they should stake their own piss, not the hotel's. Had the towel been marked "Frau Fritz" I might have sat somewhere else. Its not as if there were not plenty of other empty sun loungers she could have had; someone had even, very kindly, put towels on them all....

SC

(I'm sure Naam will not be offended, since he never goes to public pools...)

I encountered a similar German offensive in the Dominican Republic some years ago. Thankfully I arrived at low tide and was able to sweep all before me as I headed off on a days tour.

On my return the Jerries (yes a wasted childhood...) had beaten a retreat to the family pool leaving us Brits to enjoy a blissful holiday.

It does worry me this topic as us Scots have no natural enemies left any more now that the English have all fled to other shores.....perhaps I'll accost a Greek tourist and tell him to get back to work the lazy bugger!

[StreetCowboy]

I've just remembered another time, when I belted an American chap in the chops for interfering with my kilt, as I recall, though that recollection is a bit out of focus (not for want of an optician); anyway, he took it in the mild-mannered manner in which it was intended...

But I was thinking about the towels, and I had never understood that till I went to Phuket. Anyway, there was hotel towels on EVERY sun lounger, so I assumed that the hotel staff had put them there. This German lady came up to us, and said "These are OUR sun loungers" "I think you'll find they are ours" "But we put our towels here" "I think you'll find these are hotel towels" "Oh - I have never met ANYONE so rude" "You are lucky. Have a nice day". I really object to people pissing on lamp posts to mark territory, but if they're going to do it they should stake their own piss, not the hotel's. Had the towel been marked "Frau Fritz" I might have sat somewhere else. Its not as if there were not plenty of other empty sun loungers she could have had; someone had even, very kindly, put towels on them all....

SC

(I'm sure Naam will not be offended, since he never goes to public pools...)

I encountered a similar German offensive in the Dominican Republic some years ago. Thankfully I arrived at low tide and was able to sweep all before me as I headed off on a days tour.

On my return the Jerries (yes a wasted childhood...) had beaten a retreat to the family pool leaving us Brits to enjoy a blissful holiday.

It does worry me this topic as us Scots have no natural enemies left any more now that the English have all fled to other shores.....perhaps I'll accost a Greek tourist and tell him to get back to work the lazy bugger!

As if we needed natural enemies!

Let's face it, with talents like ours, we can find natural enemies wherever we go!

I came home from school one day, and my dear old grandmother, before she was late, asked "How did you get on at school?"

"I got six of the tawse"

"Well I'm sure you deserved it"

SC

[smokie36]

Let's face it, with talents like ours, we can find natural enemies wherever we go!

I came home from school one day, and my dear old grandmother, before she was late, asked "How did you get on at school?"

"I got six of the tawse"

"Well I'm sure you deserved it"

SC

You did though didn't you? Or as my father once said on realising a similar punishment wasn't warranted..."Aye just consider that's for all the things ah dinnae ken aboot."

Yet we still have no enemies to speak of.....surely our blood should be boiling....I would favour a raid on the Scandinavian countries....no need to ask what booty we'd be looking for!

[StreetCowboy]

Let's face it, with talents like ours, we can find natural enemies wherever we go!

I came home from school one day, and my dear old grandmother, before she was late, asked "How did you get on at school?"

"I got six of the tawse"

"Well I'm sure you deserved it"

SC

You did though didn't you? Or as my father once said on realising a similar punishment wasn't warranted..."Aye just consider that's for all the things ah dinnae ken aboot."

Yet we still have no enemies to speak of.....surely our blood should be boiling....I would favour a raid on the Scandinavian countries....no need to ask what booty we'd be looking for!

I did; not least for lying about getting the tawse.

My dear old grandmother, before she was late, disagreed about a lot of things, particularly ladies' frocks on Top Of The Pops and Miss World....

She'd be turning in her grave now, had she not been cremated.

SC

[onionluke]

There is quite an interesting take on the condition of neutrality on another thread . Where the question is asked ; what would it mean to a person holding dual nationality if their countries were at war ?

[ExpatJ]

Yes perfectly safe- heck, even during WW2 when nationals of the warring countries met anywhere they mostly got on very well and helped each other on a person to person basis. In fact, i would even say that using your example, a Finn and an Italian sitting next to each other in a bar would be more likely to connect and get on very well IF there countries were at war than otherwise. Can quite easily imagine sitting over a beer bemoaning who crazy our goverments are, how sad that our soldiers are dieing over there while we enjoy life here etc etc.

Are you really sure about that?

I think nationals tend to get more nationalistic when there is an active war on.

But thanks for being the one person replying.

Yes 100%- in fact there are 1000s of stories of actual opposing soldiers fraternizing and hanging out together on the battle fiends themselves when they have had a chance. I think the sort of person who would pick a fight with someone in a bar in a neutral country with someone just because their countries are at war, is the sort of person who would pick a fight under any circumstances in a bar i.e. small minded and not too bright.

[Naam]

I've just remembered another time, when I belted an American chap in the chops for interfering with my kilt, as I recall, though that recollection is a bit out of focus (not for want of an optician); anyway, he took it in the mild-mannered manner in which it was intended...

But I was thinking about the towels, and I had never understood that till I went to Phuket. Anyway, there was hotel towels on EVERY sun lounger, so I assumed that the hotel staff had put them there. This German lady came up to us, and said "These are OUR sun loungers" "I think you'll find they are ours" "But we put our towels here" "I think you'll find these are hotel towels" "Oh - I have never met ANYONE so rude" "You are lucky. Have a nice day". I really object to people pissing on lamp posts to mark territory, but if they're going to do it they should stake their own piss, not the hotel's. Had the towel been marked "Frau Fritz" I might have sat somewhere else. Its not as if there were not plenty of other empty sun loungers she could have had; someone had even, very kindly, put towels on them all....

SC

(I'm sure Naam will not be offended, since he never goes to public pools...)

right you are SC and right you are concerning Germans marking their pool territory with towels or stubbornly insisting in the restaurant "that's our dinner table!".

it so happened that many rainy seasons ago i was young and poor, couldn't afford a pool of my own and spend my holidays in various countries located around the Mediterranean. the most obnoxious guests in the hotels were nearly always the Germans and i tried hard disguising that i was one of their country fellows.

[Jingthing]

Yes perfectly safe- heck, even during WW2 when nationals of the warring countries met anywhere they mostly got on very well and helped each other on a person to person basis. In fact, i would even say that using your example, a Finn and an Italian sitting next to each other in a bar would be more likely to connect and get on very well IF there countries were at war than otherwise. Can quite easily imagine sitting over a beer bemoaning who crazy our goverments are, how sad that our soldiers are dieing over there while we enjoy life here etc etc.

Are you really sure about that?

I think nationals tend to get more nationalistic when there is an active war on.

But thanks for being the one person replying.

Yes 100%- in fact there are 1000s of stories of actual opposing soldiers fraternizing and hanging out together on the battle fiends themselves when they have had a chance. I think the sort of person who would pick a fight with someone in a bar in a neutral country with someone just because their countries are at war, is the sort of person who would pick a fight under any circumstances in a bar i.e. small minded and not too bright.

You kind of proved my point. Thousands of stories, yadda yadda yadda, doesn't mean in any way that is always the case. Also, small minded and not too bright, pretty common human condition, yes?

[Fookhaht]

It's easy enough to steer clear of Americans, just avoid anyone with a Canadian lapel pin.

Don't forget the maple leaf sewn to our backpacks!

[Fookhaht]

This isn't quite the exact scenario, but while Thai and Cambodian soldiers were killing each other a few months ago at Khao Phra Vihan, our Thai and Cambodian university students treated each other with utmost civility and friendliness on our campus where we have about 60 Cambodian exchange students. Even more worthy of notice, given that our campus is just a few short hours from the front lines.

Educated and reasonable people usually can distinguish between the irresponsible actions of politicians and generals which see war as the only problem-solving option, and reasonable people who choose more civilized means to sort out their differences. I'm not a total dove, but few wars impress me with the motives of the belligerents involved.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Fookhaht

[StreetCowboy]

I've just remembered another time, when I belted an American chap in the chops for interfering with my kilt, as I recall, though that recollection is a bit out of focus (not for want of an optician); anyway, he took it in the mild-mannered manner in which it was intended...

But I was thinking about the towels, and I had never understood that till I went to Phuket. Anyway, there was hotel towels on EVERY sun lounger, so I assumed that the hotel staff had put them there. This German lady came up to us, and said "These are OUR sun loungers" "I think you'll find they are ours" "But we put our towels here" "I think you'll find these are hotel towels" "Oh - I have never met ANYONE so rude" "You are lucky. Have a nice day". I really object to people pissing on lamp posts to mark territory, but if they're going to do it they should stake their own piss, not the hotel's. Had the towel been marked "Frau Fritz" I might have sat somewhere else. Its not as if there were not plenty of other empty sun loungers she could have had; someone had even, very kindly, put towels on them all....

SC

(I'm sure Naam will not be offended, since he never goes to public pools...)

right you are SC and right you are concerning Germans marking their pool territory with towels or stubbornly insisting in the restaurant "that's our dinner table!".

it so happened that many rainy seasons ago i was young and poor, couldn't afford a pool of my own and spend my holidays in various countries located around the Mediterranean. the most obnoxious guests in the hotels were nearly always the Germans and i tried hard disguising that i was one of their country fellows.

I went to the Oktoberfest in Munich, once, and briefly associated with two of the roughest scotsmen I have ever encountered; former bandsmen of the black watch, I believe; the least of their misdemeanours was playing the dambusters theme on the pipes in one of the beer halls. So I was told.

Before I was to comment on the neutral environments, I'd like to know the war in which I was involved. As Churchill said "We shall fight them on the beaches, by the pools and on the playing fields..."

I';m not sure that's verbatim..

SC

[Jingthing]

Update on this topic.

Well, the brewing situation that I was thinking about now (predictably really) appears to be heating up a bit more lately.

Iran, of course, and tensions not only with Israel and America but also western European countries.

No, its not full war at this point, but warlike things have already occurred.

Here in Pattaya, I have noticed the Iranian restaurants are looking much emptier than they did some months ago. Most likely related to Iranian holiday schedules but on the other hand tightening sanctions on the Iranian economy may indeed be squeezing their outgoing tourism.

So here in Pattaya, frankly, I don't think there are many Israelis going to Iranian businesses or many Iranians going to Israeli businesses.

Now as an American I am feeling more skittish about going to Iranian businesses. Not because I hate Iranian people, because I don't, but more of a feeling that some of people there may feel less welcome to "enemy" nationals.

I know some might think this is crazy, but I am feeling it.

If this was the US, I wouldn't feel that way about Iranian spaces. But this is Thailand, not the west.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Update to update. If nobody is interested in talking about this, won't update again.

OK, now the situation is becoming more real. People in Iran feel that war is coming. I don't know if they're right, but feelings are real.

http://www.washingto...ygdP_story.html

As currency crisis and feud with West deepen, Iranians brace for war

TEHRAN — At a time when U.S. officials are increasingly confident that economic and political pressure alone may succeed in curbing Iran’s nuclear ambitions, the mood here has turned bleak and belligerent as Iranians prepare grimly for a period of prolonged hardship and, they fear, war.

Their currency has dropped in value over 25 percent in a short time directly caused by economic sanctions from the west. Iranians including so called moderates are naturally proud of their country, want to defend it from their enemies, and also want a nuclear program as that has been sold as a symbol of strength and pride.

So, personally, I have now decided to avoid Iranian spaces in Pattaya. Not because I don't want to be in such spaces but because now I really feel I would be unwelcome as a national of a country that is perceived as bringing them to war and already pinching economic pain. Be clear this isn't about disliking Iranian people, especially the type that would travel to Pattaya, it's more about being uncomfortable with what I am projecting that their feelings about westerners may be now, based on the psychology of war. No, I am not worried about being poisoned at an Iranian restaurant, but frankly, I wouldn't label someone who was as crazy paranoid either.

Any reactions to this? Maybe of no interest because most westerners have ALREADY not been attracted to Iranian spaces in Thailand. In Pattaya, there are a LOT of those spaces. Probably not so much other parts of Thailand.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Jingthing

[StreetCowboy]

I suppose I should follow the news more closely. So the American war is moving back to Iran?

I'm sure I've told you all about the very pleasant evening I had drinking with the Iranian night club singer; anyway, I went to the night club to renew an old acquaintance, and it was one of the few times I felt uncomfortable in that city; myself the only foreigner in a nightclub full of young Iranian chaps being Iranian lads together. There was never anything said, or even looked, but I've always felt at least a little uncomfortable anywhere where I am clearly the only person of a different race on the premises, and there is drink involved. Anyway, I never saw her sing, maybe I left too early, and next time I went back there was a Philippina band playing instead.

SC

[Jingthing]

I suppose I should follow the news more closely. So the American war is moving back to Iran?

Well if we're to believe the Washington Post, which I do, at least the Iranians think so. Anyway, there is another thing that might happen in Thailand as a direct result of the economic pain in Iran and that is the Iranian tourism to Thailand may dry up severely. Nationals under economic stress don't travel as much. Of course many may want to be expats here of course if they can swing it. Edited January 6, 2012 by Jingthing

[flying]

I did not read the thread but will answer the question posed in the OP as it pertains to me.

I will break bread with anyone from any country regardless of what the government from my country of residence or theirs is doing period.

I do not associate the citizens of any country with any stupidity their government or mine may be involved in.

Of course that does not guarantee they will feel the same towards me.

But when I am in Thailand or anywhere in the world outside of my country for that matter I never get the feeling ( at least in the circles I travel ) that any of the folks I associate with hold me responsible for my countries governments actions.

Edited January 6, 2012 by flying