Act Of Parliament To Help Thaksin: Chalerm

[elcent]

Get the facts staight please. Thaksin did NOTHING to help the poor. Some in the admin did.

Thaksin was a kind of scolded by HMK after 1 and a 1/2 year in office. He was told to bring wealth to the poor. I remember it as it was yesterday. It had an incredible significance to my observations.

After that he picked up some of the ideas from the admin and presented it as his.

So forget about this "IDOIT".

not to forget to add on

That time the admin consisted of different people and different motivation than the one now.

Edited November 24, 2011 by elcent

[Ricardo]

There are 3 groups of Thais with regards to Thaksin's return

- those that want him back

- those that don't

- those that don't care either way

IMO, the first group is that biggest of the three, as evidenced by PT's resounding victory in the recent elections.Too bad that the majority of posters on this forum can't vote (though they can with their feet if they wanted to). However, Thais can and they did.

I want Thaksin to return because he is doing more of the right things than the others, particularly in empowering the underdogs and taking firm stances against drugs and terrorism. Innocent people got hurt and killed but unfortunately, these things happen even with the best of intentions. In a developing country, sometimes a few are sadly sacrificed for the good of many. No need to talk about corruption - this will continue to happen for far longer than any of us will live, regardless of which party or individual will be in power - it will take a lot of time and many generations for this to be eradicated (till today, there is still corruption in the developed western world).

A decade ago, Thaksin led a conglomerate political-party which helped make the interests of the poor more-important, and deserves the credit for that. He's fondly-remembered by many of the poor for it. Which doesn't mean he has the right to run the country now, directly or indirectly, or to put his friends & family in-control.

Not if they're aiming for democracy rather than a hopefully-benign dictatorship.

In taking that firm stance against drugs and terrorism, he went way-beyond the law, the thousands of dead deserved a trial at least, ditto for the peaceful-protesters last year. He also refuses now to accept the rule-of-law, or any sentence passed by the courts, as applying to himself. Does political popularity put him beyond the rule-of-law ? Shouldn't governments and PMs have to work within the law ?

"No need to talk about corruption" ? Not even when it involved passing laws for the benefit of his own or family interests ? IMO that's 'stretching the rules' further than many of us on TV would think acceptable.

So is he really still the best leader for Thailand now, or can further progress towards democracy yet be made, without passing new laws to wipe the slate clean, for this one man alone ? Thailand needs to move forwards, not backwards, and Thaksin is not the only person who can lead the country in the right direction.

I think it is long past time, for him to accept that "sometimes a few are sadly sacrificed for the good of many", and that it's his turn to pay, not with his life but just with his chances of regaining political-power.

What counts is that further progress is made, not who gets the credit, in most modern countries. Perhaps this can apply here too ?

Well reasoned post. Is he the best leader for Thailand currently? Is there an alternative?

Is the continued division good for Thailand? Obviously not. What's the solution? Keep Thaksin out or let him come back under a royal pardon with a lifetime ban from politics and no jail time. Which is the lesser of two evils? For Thailand and the Thai people, not us farangs. Since it is abundantly clear, even from the statements of the Thaksin haters that it is only a minority that wants him to pay/suffer for his crimes, I say let him back under the conditions stated above.

Thanks for replying.

I can't imagine his accepting a lifetime ban, he's already "quit politics" years ago yet continues to foment trouble, and (many believe) finance it, he doesn't accept that any of his problems were due to his own fault or actions, and can't show remorse for their results. How could he therefore give credible or binding assurances of future 'good-behaviour' ?

The traditional solution here seems to be that the ousted-PM spends a few years overseas, causes no problems, and is later allowed to quietly return home, but Thaksin deliberately chooses to continue to do things his own way, which has certain consequences. Up to him.

As to whether there are alternative leaders, I can only point out that there have been (depending on the details one wants to argue) at least five PMs, since he was last a caretaker-PM. I have never accepted that he's the only, or even the best, person for PM. There are many other people who can do the job, but I personally would hope for the options to be drawn from the newer-generation of politicians, rather than the entrenched political/feudal hacks of either main group. I know that's a lot to ask.

[TAWP]

There are 3 groups of Thais with regards to Thaksin's return

- those that want him back

- those that don't

- those that don't care either way

IMO, the first group is that biggest of the three, as evidenced by PT's resounding victory in the recent elections.Too bad that the majority of posters on this forum can't vote (though they can with their feet if they wanted to). However, Thais can and they did.

I want Thaksin to return because he is doing more of the right things than the others, particularly in empowering the underdogs and taking firm stances against drugs and terrorism. Innocent people got hurt and killed but unfortunately, these things happen even with the best of intentions. In a developing country, sometimes a few are sadly sacrificed for the good of many. No need to talk about corruption - this will continue to happen for far longer than any of us will live, regardless of which party or individual will be in power - it will take a lot of time and many generations for this to be eradicated (till today, there is still corruption in the developed western world).

You are ofcourse wrong, and if the last election was any indicator - as you would like us to believe - then you are already proven wrong and PTP gained the minority win from a reduced voter-count.

Not even Hammered and other pro-Red/PTP posters here would try to say that the first group is the biggest - in fact his argument has been all along that those that don't care are the biggest and therefor it would be ok if Thaksin came back if things would improve [due to decreased violent insurrections from Red Shirts I suppose].

Maybe you guys should sort out your talking-points first.

Either way, there are more that wants him back than those that don't, right?

There have been no referendum on the idea so it isn't possible to truly extrapolate out an answer to that question from any recent events.

[Buchholz]

There are 3 groups of Thais with regards to Thaksin's return

- those that want him back

- those that don't

- those that don't care either way

IMO, the first group is that biggest of the three, as evidenced by PT's resounding victory in the recent elections.Too bad that the majority of posters on this forum can't vote (though they can with their feet if they wanted to). However, Thais can and they did.

I want Thaksin to return because he is doing more of the right things than the others, particularly in empowering the underdogs and taking firm stances against drugs and terrorism. Innocent people got hurt and killed but unfortunately, these things happen even with the best of intentions. In a developing country, sometimes a few are sadly sacrificed for the good of many. No need to talk about corruption - this will continue to happen for far longer than any of us will live, regardless of which party or individual will be in power - it will take a lot of time and many generations for this to be eradicated (till today, there is still corruption in the developed western world).

48% PT only

Yes, and?

and so, your description of "PT's resounding victory" is a bit of an over-statement having garnered less than half the votes cast, which is what PeaceBlondie captured so well with his succinct post.

[Buchholz]

There are 3 groups of Thais with regards to Thaksin's return

- those that want him back

- those that don't

- those that don't care either way

IMO, the first group is that biggest of the three, as evidenced by PT's resounding victory in the recent elections.Too bad that the majority of posters on this forum can't vote (though they can with their feet if they wanted to). However, Thais can and they did.

I want Thaksin to return because he is doing more of the right things than the others, particularly in empowering the underdogs and taking firm stances against drugs and terrorism. Innocent people got hurt and killed but unfortunately, these things happen even with the best of intentions. In a developing country, sometimes a few are sadly sacrificed for the good of many. No need to talk about corruption - this will continue to happen for far longer than any of us will live, regardless of which party or individual will be in power - it will take a lot of time and many generations for this to be eradicated (till today, there is still corruption in the developed western world).

A decade ago, Thaksin led a conglomerate political-party which helped make the interests of the poor more-important, and deserves the credit for that. He's fondly-remembered by many of the poor for it. Which doesn't mean he has the right to run the country now, directly or indirectly, or to put his friends & family in-control.

Not if they're aiming for democracy rather than a hopefully-benign dictatorship.

In taking that firm stance against drugs and terrorism, he went way-beyond the law, the thousands of dead deserved a trial at least, ditto for the peaceful-protesters last year. He also refuses now to accept the rule-of-law, or any sentence passed by the courts, as applying to himself. Does political popularity put him beyond the rule-of-law ? Shouldn't governments and PMs have to work within the law ?

"No need to talk about corruption" ? Not even when it involved passing laws for the benefit of his own or family interests ? IMO that's 'stretching the rules' further than many of us on TV would think acceptable.

So is he really still the best leader for Thailand now, or can further progress towards democracy yet be made, without passing new laws to wipe the slate clean, for this one man alone ? Thailand needs to move forwards, not backwards, and Thaksin is not the only person who can lead the country in the right direction.

I think it is long past time, for him to accept that "sometimes a few are sadly sacrificed for the good of many", and that it's his turn to pay, not with his life but just with his chances of regaining political-power.

What counts is that further progress is made, not who gets the credit, in most modern countries. Perhaps this can apply here too ?

Well reasoned post. Is he the best leader for Thailand currently? Is there an alternative?

Is the continued division good for Thailand? Obviously not. What's the solution? Keep Thaksin out or let him come back under a royal pardon with a lifetime ban from politics and no jail time. Which is the lesser of two evils? For Thailand and the Thai people, not us farangs. Since it is abundantly clear, even from the statements of the Thaksin haters that it is only a minority that wants him to pay/suffer for his crimes, I say let him back under the conditions stated above.

The third option missing from your two evils is to have him fulfill his already adjudicated prison sentence and proceed with all the other of his still pending cases.

.

Edited November 24, 2011 by Buchholz

[Buchholz]

Is the continued division good for Thailand? Obviously not. What's the solution? Keep Thaksin out or let him come back under a royal pardon with a lifetime ban from politics and no jail time. Which is the lesser of two evils?

Do you seriously think that he would agree to those terms?

Do you think that if he agreed to those terms that he would abide by his word?

Historically, that would be an often-repeated "No" to both.

.

[KKK]

There are 3 groups of Thais with regards to Thaksin's return

- those that want him back

- those that don't

- those that don't care either way

IMO, the first group is that biggest of the three, as evidenced by PT's resounding victory in the recent elections.Too bad that the majority of posters on this forum can't vote (though they can with their feet if they wanted to). However, Thais can and they did.

I want Thaksin to return because he is doing more of the right things than the others, particularly in empowering the underdogs and taking firm stances against drugs and terrorism. Innocent people got hurt and killed but unfortunately, these things happen even with the best of intentions. In a developing country, sometimes a few are sadly sacrificed for the good of many. No need to talk about corruption - this will continue to happen for far longer than any of us will live, regardless of which party or individual will be in power - it will take a lot of time and many generations for this to be eradicated (till today, there is still corruption in the developed western world).

A decade ago, Thaksin led a conglomerate political-party which helped make the interests of the poor more-important, and deserves the credit for that. He's fondly-remembered by many of the poor for it. Which doesn't mean he has the right to run the country now, directly or indirectly, or to put his friends & family in-control.

Not if they're aiming for democracy rather than a hopefully-benign dictatorship.

In taking that firm stance against drugs and terrorism, he went way-beyond the law, the thousands of dead deserved a trial at least, ditto for the peaceful-protesters last year. He also refuses now to accept the rule-of-law, or any sentence passed by the courts, as applying to himself. Does political popularity put him beyond the rule-of-law ? Shouldn't governments and PMs have to work within the law ?

"No need to talk about corruption" ? Not even when it involved passing laws for the benefit of his own or family interests ? IMO that's 'stretching the rules' further than many of us on TV would think acceptable.

So is he really still the best leader for Thailand now, or can further progress towards democracy yet be made, without passing new laws to wipe the slate clean, for this one man alone ? Thailand needs to move forwards, not backwards, and Thaksin is not the only person who can lead the country in the right direction.

I think it is long past time, for him to accept that "sometimes a few are sadly sacrificed for the good of many", and that it's his turn to pay, not with his life but just with his chances of regaining political-power.

What counts is that further progress is made, not who gets the credit, in most modern countries. Perhaps this can apply here too ?

Well reasoned post. Is he the best leader for Thailand currently? Is there an alternative?

Is the continued division good for Thailand? Obviously not. What's the solution? Keep Thaksin out or let him come back under a royal pardon with a lifetime ban from politics and no jail time. Which is the lesser of two evils? For Thailand and the Thai people, not us farangs. Since it is abundantly clear, even from the statements of the Thaksin haters that it is only a minority that wants him to pay/suffer for his crimes, I say let him back under the conditions stated above.

The third option missing from your two evils is to have him fulfill his already adjudicated prison sentence and proceed with all the other of his still pending cases.

Your 3rd option is the one I would like to see happen. And never mind waiting for his return I would fully support any mission to go get him to ensure it did.

[Gweiloman]

True to form, the Thaksin haters have only criticism and no solutions to offer. With the exception of Ricardo who has posted reasonably and intelligently, all others just want to hang Thaksin high and dry, something which of course we know will never happen. This continuing stance will ensure that there will be no reconciliation whatsoever.

I expected more from the farang brigade, whether you are anti-T or not. We farangs pride ourselves on being part of the solution and not part of the problem but I guess the majority of the posters here form the minority of westerners.

[KKK]

True to form, the Thaksin haters have only criticism and no solutions to offer. With the exception of Ricardo who has posted reasonably and intelligently, all others just want to hang Thaksin high and dry, something which of course we know will never happen. This continuing stance will ensure that there will be no reconciliation whatsoever.

I expected more from the farang brigade, whether you are anti-T or not. We farangs pride ourselves on being part of the solution and not part of the problem but I guess the majority of the posters here form the minority of westerners.

I personally don't think it is a matter of hate...it is more the operation of the laws of the land. Thaksin has been found guilty and convicted of certain crimes. He's been sentanced to 2 years imprisonment but has so far managed to avoid even one day incarcaration having exiled himself. So what kind of reconciliation is it that would allow him to permanently, by way of amnesty, pardon, act of parliament, whatever, avoid punishment. Doesn't that show that there is one set of laws for him and another set for everybody else. Is that justice? Is that a way to go forward? I don't think so.

If he serves his punishment who suffers..only him...not those that support him...so why not just let the law of the land apply to him as it would everybody else. Who does he think he is to get special treatment...GOD...personally I would spell that backwards....

So you want a solution. Let the charges against him and the sentance given to him stand. Let there be no special treatment of this criminal. Let this country stand up and say NO to corruption.

Edited November 25, 2011 by KKK

[Buchholz]

True to form, the Thaksin haters have only criticism and no solutions to offer. With the exception of Ricardo who has posted reasonably and intelligently, all others just want to hang Thaksin high and dry, something which of course we know will never happen. This continuing stance will ensure that there will be no reconciliation whatsoever.

I expected more from the farang brigade, whether you are anti-T or not. We farangs pride ourselves on being part of the solution and not part of the problem but I guess the majority of the posters here form the minority of westerners.

I personally don't think it is a matter of hate...it is more the operation of the laws of the land. Thaksin has been found guilty and convicted of certain crimes. He's been sentanced to 2 years imprisonment but has so far managed to avoid even one day incarcaration having exiled himself. So what kind of reconciliation is it that would allow him to permanently, by way of amnesty, pardon, act of parliament, whatever, avoid punishment. Doesn't that show that there is one set of laws for him and another set for everybody else. Is that justice? Is that a way to go forward? I don't think so.

If he serves his punishment who suffers..only him...not those that support him...so why not just let the law of the land apply to him as it would everybody else. Who does he think he is to get special treatment...GOD...personally I would spell that backwards....

Indeed, it's the true to form Thaksin lovers who only offer excuses and whose solution is to sweep it all under the carpet.

"Forgive and Forget," as someone recently wrote.

As for his incarceration being "something which of course we know will never happen" is perhaps presumptuous. There have already been numerous situations where many people pre-emptively said, "oh, it will never happen" that absolutely did happen.

One of which was his conviction as the first prime minister of Thailand to be found guilty.

Careful to count one's chickens before they hatch on the topsy-turvy, unpredictable, ever-changing landscape of Thailand.

.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Buchholz

[Gweiloman]

True to form, the Thaksin haters have only criticism and no solutions to offer. With the exception of Ricardo who has posted reasonably and intelligently, all others just want to hang Thaksin high and dry, something which of course we know will never happen. This continuing stance will ensure that there will be no reconciliation whatsoever.

I expected more from the farang brigade, whether you are anti-T or not. We farangs pride ourselves on being part of the solution and not part of the problem but I guess the majority of the posters here form the minority of westerners.

I personally don't think it is a matter of hate...it is more the operation of the laws of the land. Thaksin has been found guilty and convicted of certain crimes. He's been sentanced to 2 years imprisonment but has so far managed to avoid even one day incarcaration having exiled himself. So what kind of reconciliation is it that would allow him to permanently, by way of amnesty, pardon, act of parliament, whatever, avoid punishment. Doesn't that show that there is one set of laws for him and another set for everybody else. Is that justice? Is that a way to go forward? I don't think so.

If he serves his punishment who suffers..only him...not those that support him...so why not just let the law of the land apply to him as it would everybody else. Who does he think he is to get special treatment...GOD...personally I would spell that backwards....

I agree in principle with what you are saying. However, the fact remains that Thaksin, like it or not, is a special case. Claims that the charges against him are politically motivated are not unfounded, to the extent that some countries, notably Japan and Germany(?) were happy to welcome him immediately on PT assuming power.

The current standoff is no way to go forward. Will Thaksin serve any jail time? Unlikely. So something has to give and common sense says that it would have to be the least of all evils. Once again, drop mention of jail - this is not going to happen. so what else is left?

[yoshiwara]

True to form, the Thaksin haters have only criticism and no solutions to offer. With the exception of Ricardo who has posted reasonably and intelligently, all others just want to hang Thaksin high and dry, something which of course we know will never happen. This continuing stance will ensure that there will be no reconciliation whatsoever.

I expected more from the farang brigade, whether you are anti-T or not. We farangs pride ourselves on being part of the solution and not part of the problem but I guess the majority of the posters here form the minority of westerners.

I personally don't think it is a matter of hate...it is more the operation of the laws of the land. Thaksin has been found guilty and convicted of certain crimes. He's been sentanced to 2 years imprisonment but has so far managed to avoid even one day incarcaration having exiled himself. So what kind of reconciliation is it that would allow him to permanently, by way of amnesty, pardon, act of parliament, whatever, avoid punishment. Doesn't that show that there is one set of laws for him and another set for everybody else. Is that justice? Is that a way to go forward? I don't think so.

If he serves his punishment who suffers..only him...not those that support him...so why not just let the law of the land apply to him as it would everybody else. Who does he think he is to get special treatment...GOD...personally I would spell that backwards....

I agree in principle with what you are saying. However, the fact remains that Thaksin, like it or not, is a special case. Claims that the charges against him are politically motivated are not unfounded, to the extent that some countries, notably Japan and Germany(?) were happy to welcome him immediately on PT assuming power.

The current standoff is no way to go forward. Will Thaksin serve any jail time? Unlikely. So something has to give and common sense says that it would have to be the least of all evils. Once again, drop mention of jail - this is not going to happen. so what else is left?

He is not a special case re money laundering except for the fact that he committed such while in office and however you try to dress it up as a 'special case' (= the law should not apply to Thaksin), common sense only suggests don't stand downwind of any excuses to set him free. Why? Because they stink.

Edited November 25, 2011 by yoshiwara

[scorecard]

There are 3 groups of Thais with regards to Thaksin's return

- those that want him back

- those that don't

- those that don't care either way

IMO, the first group is that biggest of the three, as evidenced by PT's resounding victory in the recent elections.Too bad that the majority of posters on this forum can't vote (though they can with their feet if they wanted to). However, Thais can and they did.

I want Thaksin to return because he is doing more of the right things than the others, particularly in empowering the underdogs and taking firm stances against drugs and terrorism. Innocent people got hurt and killed but unfortunately, these things happen even with the best of intentions. In a developing country, sometimes a few are sadly sacrificed for the good of many. No need to talk about corruption - this will continue to happen for far longer than any of us will live, regardless of which party or individual will be in power - it will take a lot of time and many generations for this to be eradicated (till today, there is still corruption in the developed western world).

A decade ago, Thaksin led a conglomerate political-party which helped make the interests of the poor more-important, and deserves the credit for that. He's fondly-remembered by many of the poor for it. Which doesn't mean he has the right to run the country now, directly or indirectly, or to put his friends & family in-control.

Not if they're aiming for democracy rather than a hopefully-benign dictatorship.

In taking that firm stance against drugs and terrorism, he went way-beyond the law, the thousands of dead deserved a trial at least, ditto for the peaceful-protesters last year. He also refuses now to accept the rule-of-law, or any sentence passed by the courts, as applying to himself. Does political popularity put him beyond the rule-of-law ? Shouldn't governments and PMs have to work within the law ?

"No need to talk about corruption" ? Not even when it involved passing laws for the benefit of his own or family interests ? IMO that's 'stretching the rules' further than many of us on TV would think acceptable.

So is he really still the best leader for Thailand now, or can further progress towards democracy yet be made, without passing new laws to wipe the slate clean, for this one man alone ? Thailand needs to move forwards, not backwards, and Thaksin is not the only person who can lead the country in the right direction.

I think it is long past time, for him to accept that "sometimes a few are sadly sacrificed for the good of many", and that it's his turn to pay, not with his life but just with his chances of regaining political-power.

What counts is that further progress is made, not who gets the credit, in most modern countries. Perhaps this can apply here too ?

Well reasoned post. Is he the best leader for Thailand currently? Is there an alternative?

Is the continued division good for Thailand? Obviously not. What's the solution? Keep Thaksin out or let him come back under a royal pardon with a lifetime ban from politics and no jail time. Which is the lesser of two evils? For Thailand and the Thai people, not us farangs. Since it is abundantly clear, even from the statements of the Thaksin haters that it is only a minority that wants him to pay/suffer for his crimes, I say let him back under the conditions stated above.

Thanks for replying.

I can't imagine his accepting a lifetime ban, he's already "quit politics" years ago yet continues to foment trouble, and (many believe) finance it, he doesn't accept that any of his problems were due to his own fault or actions, and can't show remorse for their results. How could he therefore give credible or binding assurances of future 'good-behaviour' ?

The traditional solution here seems to be that the ousted-PM spends a few years overseas, causes no problems, and is later allowed to quietly return home, but Thaksin deliberately chooses to continue to do things his own way, which has certain consequences. Up to him.

As to whether there are alternative leaders, I can only point out that there have been (depending on the details one wants to argue) at least five PMs, since he was last a caretaker-PM. I have never accepted that he's the only, or even the best, person for PM. There are many other people who can do the job, but I personally would hope for the options to be drawn from the newer-generation of politicians, rather than the entrenched political/feudal hacks of either main group. I know that's a lot to ask.

Agree with Ricardo. And the truth is that there are many highly capable, genuine, honest and sincere Thais who would be good PMs, good ministers etc. The problem, right now, is that they avoid politics like the plague because they don't want to be associated with incapable thieves.

But, the time will come, and IMHO, we will eventually see the rise of an educated logical middle class who will take Thailand forward with logical discussion, policies and actions which are for the benefit of all Thais, and eventually override the current old boys gangs and make them irrelevant. It will come.

[Thaddeus]

Agree with Ricardo. And the truth is that there are many highly capable, genuine, honest and sincere Thais who would be good PMs, good ministers etc. The problem, right now, is that they avoid politics like the plague because they don't want to be associated with incapable thieves.

But, the time will come, and IMHO, we will eventually see the rise of an educated logical middle class who will take Thailand forward with logical discussion, policies and actions which are for the benefit of all Thais, and eventually override the current old boys gangs and make them irrelevant. It will come.

That day cannot come too soon, I would love to live to see it.

[rubl]

OP #1: "He (i.e. Dept. PM Chalerm) said the draft decree on pardon would not be applicable for Thaksin as the government had openly planned to rescue him from the legal predicament via an legislative act for amnesty."

#43: "Chalerm said that the government is now waiting for the right time to move forward with its plan to help the former premier."

It's at times like these that I'm painfully aware I'll never, ever be a Thai. I'm wondering about all those people who still have 'hardly' a meter of water outside (or inside) their house, and are bound to dry up 'eventually'. In the mean time the government (or at least Dept. PM Chalerm) is really anxious and concerned and busy with that poor old chap k. Thaksin. Just thinking about it I had to get myself a dry hanky a few times, sentimental me

Edited November 25, 2011 by rubl

[KKK]

True to form, the Thaksin haters have only criticism and no solutions to offer. With the exception of Ricardo who has posted reasonably and intelligently, all others just want to hang Thaksin high and dry, something which of course we know will never happen. This continuing stance will ensure that there will be no reconciliation whatsoever.

I expected more from the farang brigade, whether you are anti-T or not. We farangs pride ourselves on being part of the solution and not part of the problem but I guess the majority of the posters here form the minority of westerners.

I personally don't think it is a matter of hate...it is more the operation of the laws of the land. Thaksin has been found guilty and convicted of certain crimes. He's been sentanced to 2 years imprisonment but has so far managed to avoid even one day incarcaration having exiled himself. So what kind of reconciliation is it that would allow him to permanently, by way of amnesty, pardon, act of parliament, whatever, avoid punishment. Doesn't that show that there is one set of laws for him and another set for everybody else. Is that justice? Is that a way to go forward? I don't think so.

If he serves his punishment who suffers..only him...not those that support him...so why not just let the law of the land apply to him as it would everybody else. Who does he think he is to get special treatment...GOD...personally I would spell that backwards....

I agree in principle with what you are saying. However, the fact remains that Thaksin, like it or not, is a special case. Claims that the charges against him are politically motivated are not unfounded, to the extent that some countries, notably Japan and Germany(?) were happy to welcome him immediately on PT assuming power.

The current standoff is no way to go forward. Will Thaksin serve any jail time? Unlikely. So something has to give and common sense says that it would have to be the least of all evils. Once again, drop mention of jail - this is not going to happen. so what else is left?

Thaksin may be a special case but only in that he committed his crimes while in public office. A position he had been given in TRUST by the people of Thailand to SERVE them. So the charges made against him may well have been politically motivated in that we've had enough of public servants ripping us off and abusing power. Is that wrong..no I see that as Thailand at long last growing a backbone and saying "enough of crooked/corrupt polititians".

Japan and Germany(?) may well have welcomed him immediately upon PT assuming power but just how quickly was the coup government after Thaksins departure accepted by the rest of the world. Very very quickly. And is there a single country that refers to Thaksin as Thailand's Prime Minister in exile....No...they all call him Thailand's ousted fugitive ex-Prime Minister...because that is what he is. And why do they call him that...because he is a convicted criminal. Not somebody who has been overthrown but a CROOK plain and simple. Britain who harboured him for a while eventually saw the light and refused him entry. Dubai obviously doesn't care.

I doubt there is a single country in the world that does not have laws in place that would have convicted him the same as if he had commited the crimes there. So in the eyes of the WORLD he is just plain GUILTY GUILTY GUILTY. And where do guilty people go..JAIL JAIL JAIL. There I said it "Go to JAIL Thaksin" and pay for the crimes you committed. And let that be a lesson (deterrant) to all those who are thinking of doing the same.

Edited November 25, 2011 by KKK

[KKK]

I just want to make one more point...I don't think there is that much of a standoff as Gweiloman thinks. Thailand shall not come to its knees because Thaksin doesn't return. It's doubtful as a convicted criminal whether he could return to public office anyway. Most people seem to think he is running the country anyway from Dubai through his sister Yingluck. I don't see any indecision regarding Thaksin at all. The decision has been made..he is a crook, he has been tried, convicted and sentanced according to the law. The only thing left is for him to accept his punishment. The fact that some people may be trying to help him is not a standoff. The standoff may happen if they suceed which I hope they don't.

Edited November 26, 2011 by KKK

[Ricardo]

I agree in principle with what you are saying. However, the fact remains that Thaksin, like it or not, is a special case. Claims that the charges against him are politically motivated are not unfounded, to the extent that some countries, notably Japan and Germany(?) were happy to welcome him immediately on PT assuming power.

The current standoff is no way to go forward. Will Thaksin serve any jail time? Unlikely. So something has to give and common sense says that it would have to be the least of all evils. Once again, drop mention of jail - this is not going to happen. so what else is left?

Thaksin is perhaps a special case, in the sense that he appears willing to continue to make trouble, until he's allowed to return to Thailand and also probably (in the opinion of many) to power. Which would clearly be a seriously-bad outcome for the country, risking following the examples of Indonesia or the Phillipines or Cambodia.

Rewarding this ongoing blackmail by giving-in totally is therefore unthinkable. Allowing him back, with a lifetime ban from politics or back-channel promises to live quietly, well I've yet to hear how acceptable/reliable-guarantees might be devised. Which leaves the current situation, possibly until he dies a natural death or in some random accident, or until the whole affair is ancient (aot recent) history and all the other court-cases against him lapse through time (is that after 10 years ?).

Perhaps a PTP-led government, which tends to the business of running the country and improving the lives of the poor, but isn't dominated by the will of one man in Dubai, who allegedly holds the ministers' undated-but-signed resignation-letters to maintain total-control, might work if it were allowed the chance. It would perhaps also be far-less likely to provoke the military, from feeling the need to step-in again, as Jatuporn constantly predicts they want to.

But can Thaksin live with this alternative ? The evidence so far, given the clear determination of Deputy-PM Chalerm to introduce legislation to bring Thaksin back quickly, or the former-PM's own continued bleating about how he's been unjustly-treated and is blameless of anything at-all ever, suggests that he will be unable to accept anything less than a full-and-free pardon and return to what he perceives (but many more don't) as his rightful position.

Lastly the long-feared & unwanted major-event may also lead to change or other options, but also with a heightened-risk of instability, and perhaps continuing division.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Ricardo

[KKK]

The evidence so far, given the clear determination of Deputy-PM Chalerm to introduce legislation to bring Thaksin back quickly, or the former-PM's own continued bleating about how he's been unjustly-treated and is blameless of anything at-all ever, suggests that he will be unable to accept anything less than a full-and-free pardon and return to what he perceives (but many more don't) as his rightful position.

As I understand it a pardon or amnesty would only release him from punishment. He would still be guilty of the charges he was convicted for and I believe unable to stand for public office again. To get rid of that, guilt, the court desicion would need to be overturned. Can that be achieved by act of parliament? And then there is all the pending cases against him. To get rid of those he would need some kind of imunity.

That's an awful amount to ask...

[thaibeachlovers]

True to form, the Thaksin haters have only criticism and no solutions to offer. With the exception of Ricardo who has posted reasonably and intelligently, all others just want to hang Thaksin high and dry, something which of course we know will never happen. This continuing stance will ensure that there will be no reconciliation whatsoever.

I expected more from the farang brigade, whether you are anti-T or not. We farangs pride ourselves on being part of the solution and not part of the problem but I guess the majority of the posters here form the minority of westerners.

I personally don't think it is a matter of hate...it is more the operation of the laws of the land. Thaksin has been found guilty and convicted of certain crimes. He's been sentanced to 2 years imprisonment but has so far managed to avoid even one day incarcaration having exiled himself. So what kind of reconciliation is it that would allow him to permanently, by way of amnesty, pardon, act of parliament, whatever, avoid punishment. Doesn't that show that there is one set of laws for him and another set for everybody else. Is that justice? Is that a way to go forward? I don't think so.

If he serves his punishment who suffers..only him...not those that support him...so why not just let the law of the land apply to him as it would everybody else. Who does he think he is to get special treatment...GOD...personally I would spell that backwards....

I agree in principle with what you are saying. However, the fact remains that Thaksin, like it or not, is a special case. Claims that the charges against him are politically motivated are not unfounded, to the extent that some countries, notably Japan and Germany(?) were happy to welcome him immediately on PT assuming power.

The current standoff is no way to go forward. Will Thaksin serve any jail time? Unlikely. So something has to give and common sense says that it would have to be the least of all evils. Once again, drop mention of jail - this is not going to happen. so what else is left?

Just because POLITICIANS in Japan and Germany were happy to welcome him does not mean that the PEOPLE in those countries would have been happy if they were aware of his crimes ( which they probably are not ). Politicians in most countries are no more "representative" of the people that they govern, than thakin is of the average Thai.

[yoshiwara]

The evidence so far, given the clear determination of Deputy-PM Chalerm to introduce legislation to bring Thaksin back quickly, or the former-PM's own continued bleating about how he's been unjustly-treated and is blameless of anything at-all ever, suggests that he will be unable to accept anything less than a full-and-free pardon and return to what he perceives (but many more don't) as his rightful position.

As I understand it a pardon or amnesty would only release him from punishment. He would still be guilty of the charges he was convicted for and I believe unable to stand for public office again. To get rid of that, guilt, the court desicion would need to be overturned. Can that be achieved by act of parliament? And then there is all the pending cases against him. To get rid of those he would need some kind of imunity.

That's an awful amount to ask...

The government would have been prepared to move one step at a time and the first being to bring Thaksin back to Thailand without fear of arrest.

The problem, the big problem they had with even this step, was that they tried to dress it up by saying that the amnesty was not about Thaksin.

To do this, the PM was forced to lie and make herself absent from meetings which considered the application and Thaksin lied saying it was nothing to do with him.

As for a pardon he neither applied for nor has accepted the convictions. If he had applied for a pardon there would have been no subsequent point in nullifying the convictions.

The thing that will be driving Thaksin mad is that the longer the government continues without his presence, the more the point can be made that he is not physically required to be present.

This applies the better the government performs.

So what to do? Undermine the government? Engineer the raising of a coup threat?

So far the best he has come up with is 'I've got some pumps' for the floods and suggested he had a master plan way back for dealing with the crisis.

Nobody got too excited about that.

But we wait for the next stunt.

[animatic]

Agree with Ricardo. And the truth is that there are many highly capable, genuine, honest and sincere Thais who would be good PMs, good ministers etc. The problem, right now, is that they avoid politics like the plague because they don't want to be associated with incapable thieves.

But, the time will come, and IMHO, we will eventually see the rise of an educated logical middle class who will take Thailand forward with logical discussion, policies and actions which are for the benefit of all Thais, and eventually override the current old boys gangs and make them irrelevant. It will come.

That day cannot come too soon, I would love to live to see it.

Seems like a successful Guy Faux Day would be the only solution.

Pretty pathetic that no other way can clearly be seen.

Not saying to do it of course.

[maidu]

So, let me see if I've got this right: If I go and shoot at Thai army members, it's ok, and I'm liable to get an amnesty, because Mr. Chalerm deems it's no big deal.

If I lob a bomb at a railway platform and kill a woman in downtown Bkk, no problem, because Mr. Chalerm figures all is forgiven.

If I was a bazillionaire and sold a major Thai asset and paid no taxes, then Chalerm would grin and pat me on the back and say, 'way to go chum!'

If I commandeer a propane tanker truck in downtown bangkok and threaten to blow it up. No problem, Mr. Chalerm will come to my aid, and demand that I be forgiven.

Gadz, with a lovely Deputy PM like Chalerm, it doesn't matter how naughty I am, he will make sure that I get amnesty. Thanks Chalerm, you're a a pal.

And, if he was my dad, he wouldn't even mind if I shot and killed a policeman. He would do all in his ample power to make sure I got off, regardless of guilt. Gosh, I wish he were my daddy.

[maidu]

Is the continued division good for Thailand? Obviously not. What's the solution? Keep Thaksin out or let him come back under a royal pardon with a lifetime ban from politics and no jail time. Which is the lesser of two evils?

Do you seriously think that he would agree to those terms?

Do you think that if he agreed to those terms that he would abide by his word?

Thaksin agree to his word?!?! Are you kidding?! He has no word. His word carries as much weight as the skin of a grape. His 'word' is as firm as a piece of wet toilet paper. If you can recall any quote of his, of the past ten years, which remotely resembled the truth, please share it with us. Thanks.

Edited November 26, 2011 by maidu

[animatic]

Is the continued division good for Thailand? Obviously not. What's the solution? Keep Thaksin out or let him come back under a royal pardon with a lifetime ban from politics and no jail time. Which is the lesser of two evils?

Do you seriously think that he would agree to those terms?

Do you think that if he agreed to those terms that he would abide by his word?

Thaksin agree to his word?!?! Are you kidding?! He has no word. His word carries as much weight as the skin of a grape. His 'word' is as firm as a piece of wet toilet paper. If you can recall any quote of his, of the past ten years, which remotely resembled the truth, please share it with us. Thanks.

As truthful as

"You very hansum man, I love you long time."

[TAWP]

As truthful as

"You very hansum man, I love you long time."

I am not saying that a majority of the red aligned posters married a girl meet under such a fashion, took their meager savings and moved to the boondocks and in their anger over their own failure in life lash out at those that succeed and in an attempt to reduce the distrust and dislike from neighbors and new relatives decides to adopt their political stance - even if they don't fully understand it - and then go onto forums to give support for the 'Red cause' on forums.

[Thaddeus]

Is the continued division good for Thailand? Obviously not. What's the solution? Keep Thaksin out or let him come back under a royal pardon with a lifetime ban from politics and no jail time. Which is the lesser of two evils?

Do you seriously think that he would agree to those terms?

Do you think that if he agreed to those terms that he would abide by his word?

Thaksin agree to his word?!?! Are you kidding?! He has no word. His word carries as much weight as the skin of a grape. His 'word' is as firm as a piece of wet toilet paper. If you can recall any quote of his, of the past ten years, which remotely resembled the truth, please share it with us. Thanks.

The eating KFC live on camera is about as close as it gets, and that was delivered by his daughter (five stars) probably in a box with the label "Brought to you by Thaksin, with love"

(Just in case you didn't get it, read the post of mine that you quoted again)

[Gweiloman]

So, let me see if I've got this right: If I go and shoot at Thai army members, it's ok, and I'm liable to get an amnesty, because Mr. Chalerm deems it's no big deal.

If I lob a bomb at a railway platform and kill a woman in downtown Bkk, no problem, because Mr. Chalerm figures all is forgiven.

If I was a bazillionaire and sold a major Thai asset and paid no taxes, then Chalerm would grin and pat me on the back and say, 'way to go chum!'

If I commandeer a propane tanker truck in downtown bangkok and threaten to blow it up. No problem, Mr. Chalerm will come to my aid, and demand that I be forgiven.

Gadz, with a lovely Deputy PM like Chalerm, it doesn't matter how naughty I am, he will make sure that I get amnesty. Thanks Chalerm, you're a a pal.

And, if he was my dad, he wouldn't even mind if I shot and killed a policeman. He would do all in his ample power to make sure I got off, regardless of guilt. Gosh, I wish he were my daddy.

Sadly though, you're not a special case.

[Thaddeus]

So, let me see if I've got this right: If I go and shoot at Thai army members, it's ok, and I'm liable to get an amnesty, because Mr. Chalerm deems it's no big deal.

If I lob a bomb at a railway platform and kill a woman in downtown Bkk, no problem, because Mr. Chalerm figures all is forgiven.

If I was a bazillionaire and sold a major Thai asset and paid no taxes, then Chalerm would grin and pat me on the back and say, 'way to go chum!'

If I commandeer a propane tanker truck in downtown bangkok and threaten to blow it up. No problem, Mr. Chalerm will come to my aid, and demand that I be forgiven.

Gadz, with a lovely Deputy PM like Chalerm, it doesn't matter how naughty I am, he will make sure that I get amnesty. Thanks Chalerm, you're a a pal.

And, if he was my dad, he wouldn't even mind if I shot and killed a policeman. He would do all in his ample power to make sure I got off, regardless of guilt. Gosh, I wish he were my daddy.

Sadly though, you're not a special case.

But he is living in a land chock full of special cases, and he has noticed it, unlike some.