Thailand Will Only Reunite If The Reds Are Disbanded, Abhisit Says

[webfact]

Country will only reunite if the reds are disbanded, Abhisit says

THE NATION

Opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said yesterday that he would work to bring all sides together provided there were no more red-shirt villages and the movement was dispersed.

"If the red-shirt movement does not come to an end, then the reconciliation cannot be achieved as per the 66/23 model," he said.

Pheu Thai MP Wattana Muangsuk, who is also deputy chairman of the House of Representatives committee on reconciliation, said earlier that his panel would study the 66/23 formula for reconciliation.

The 66/23 model was used by General Prem Tinsulanonda's government, which allowed communists to return to society and join a national development programme.

Abhisit said Kanit na Nakhon, chairman of the Truth for Reconciliation Committee of Thailand (TRCT), had said the definition of political prisoners should not include those who used weapons in political protests after the 2006 military coup.

General Sonthi Boonyaratglin, chairman of the House panel on reconciliation, said the committee had asked the Council of State to clarify the definition of political vocabulary as well as provide examples of amnesty being provided to political prisoners.

Committee spokesman Nakorn Machim said the King Prajadhipok Institute had agreed to research the steps that must be taken to bring about reconciliation, but would not draft legislation because that was the job of the Council of State.

In the past, amnesty has been granted to prisoners in cases related to national security, violators of the Communism Act, and students who participated in the 1973 Thammasat University uprising, he said. However, it was up to the public as to whether amnesty should be granted to political offenders, including those facing terrorism charges and violators of the emergency decree, rallies calling for basic rights and rights of expression as well as voting right revocation, Nakorn said.

Meanwhile, in reaction to TRCT's proposal that political detainees be kept away from common criminals, the Department of Corrections has started renovating a temporary prison in Bangkok's Lak Si district for the inmates, including detained red-shirt protesters.

However, Abhisit said it was clear nepotism if the centre was being prepared just so red-shirt detainees could be brought to the Lak Si prison from across the country.

Critics have also been saying that the temporary centre is being renovated to receive fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra if he returns to the country.

Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung said yesterday that there was no way Thaksin would be detained at the Lak Si prison, and called on people to stop turning the renovation of the centre into a political issue.

He said he too was jailed when he joined a failed military coup against Prem's government, and his fellow detainees were communists or those waiting to be exiled.

"People who are turning this into a political issue don't know the history of the prison," Chalerm said. "In the first seven days of my detention, I was in solitary confinement and did not know whether it was day or night. Then I was moved to an ordinary cell. But I was still in jail."

Asked whether the renovation had anything to do with Thaksin, Chalerm said: "Nobody [of Thaksin's stature] will come. That's all."

When asked again if he meant Thaksin would not be detained if he returned to Thailand, Chalerm said: "I didn't say so. But don't wait, nobody will come."

-- The Nation 2011-12-21

[Thailand]

I guess that would also have to include the Yellows, the multi colours, perhaps even a few political parties etc?

[AleG]

I guess that would also have to include the Yellows, the multi colours, perhaps even a few political parties etc?

The difference being that those groups are not militantly carving up the country into Yellow/Multicolor/Whatever Villages.

How can they call for reconciliation while doing that?

[DP25]

Thaksin isn't going to disband his red shirts until his entire fortune is returned and he has exacted vengeance on those oppose him.

[geriatrickid]

I don't think the Redshirts would comply with a PTP or Thaksin request to disband. The Redshirts are using Thaksin, just as he has used them. As soon as they are of no use to each other, they will turn on each other.

[JurgenG]

The Reds are our best protection for democracy against the Yellows, Blues, Multi color ....

The only reason we didn't have a repeat of the previous election when the Yellows created mayhem until they had the government of their choice against the popular vote is because this time they knew they will have the Reds in front of them.

Disband the Yellows and the Reds will disappear because they will have no reason to exist.

[Insight]

Disband the Yellows and the Reds will disappear because they will have no reason to exist.

What "yellow's"?

The only thing which will reunite those guys is joining the common cause against Thaksin's attempts to flaunt justice, as we seen not one month ago.

[rixalex]

I don't think the Redshirts would comply with a PTP or Thaksin request to disband. The Redshirts are using Thaksin, just as he has used them. As soon as they are of no use to each other, they will turn on each other.

Quite a bit of truth in that i'd say.

[hanuman1]

I don't think the Redshirts would comply with a PTP or Thaksin request to disband. The Redshirts are using Thaksin, just as he has used them. As soon as they are of no use to each other, they will turn on each other.

Completely agree with this, and again it points at the fact that the Red Shirts = Thaksin = PTP equation was always wrong, it's just that people who advocated it were only considering the goals they apparently shared in the short term (especially when the Dems were in government). With the Dems out of office, these shared goals became fewer and they will continue to do so if/when Thaksin comes back.

The only thing I'm not sure of is under exactly what circumstances the red shirt movement would actually disband. I can't see how they would. Their stated aim is 'Democracy', but how do you measure this? When will they say 'We've got Democracy now, see ya!'? And I doubt any anti-monarchy ticket is their main agenda either as a lot of the grass roots support still have much respect for the monarchy regardless of what some fringe factions say.

So I rather think that the red shirt movement could go down one of two paths. It may become an organization ripe for hijacking under the banner of 'wanting Democracy' ad infinitum to achieve the political goals of whoever is leading it at the time, or it may slowly, quietly mutate into some kind of community watchdog organization, like a national 'neighborhood watch'. The former will happen if the national divides in this country remain, the latter will happen if said disparity between rich and poor is addressed to some extent. Of course, this could all be <deleted>.

[animatic]

Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung said yesterday that there was no way Thaksin would be detained at the Lak Si prison, and called on people to stop turning the renovation of the centre into a political issue.

He said he too was jailed when he joined a failed military coup against Prem's government, and his fellow detainees were communists or those waiting to be exiled.

"People who are turning this into a political issue don't know the history of the prison," Chalerm said. "In the first seven days of my detention, I was in solitary confinement and did not know whether it was day or night. Then I was moved to an ordinary cell. But I was still in jail."

Every time he opens his mouth about 'the 2006 coup makers' the hypocrisy piles up like at the rear of an elephant that never is moved but eats all it wants. And with a similar stink.

He sure has his own personal axe to grind,

and comes across as ANYTHING BUT an icon of the fight for Democracy.

[gregb]

I don't think the Redshirts would comply with a PTP or Thaksin request to disband. The Redshirts are using Thaksin, just as he has used them. As soon as they are of no use to each other, they will turn on each other.

Quite a bit of truth in that i'd say.

I would say what Abhisit was really getting at is that the reds as a political tool for Thaksin must go away. The reds without Thaksin are hardly a problem. Their complaints can be addressed through normal procedures, and an organization, even one as militant as the reds, can be negotiated with. They aren't all sociopaths.

It is the way Thaksin has corrupted them for his own purposes that is the real problem. And yes, I'm sure there are naive leaders within the red shirt who believe they can use Thaksin and then discard him when they are done. Should Thaksin ever succeed in his goal to reconquer the country, they will find out how truly wrong they are.

All that has to happen is that Thaksin denounces the reds, and they are effectively done as any kind of meaningful force in the country.

[animatic]

The Reds are our best protection for democracy against the Yellows, Blues, Multi color ....

The only reason we didn't have a repeat of the previous election when the Yellows created mayhem until they had the government of their choice against the popular vote is because this time they knew they will have the Reds in front of them.

Disband the Yellows and the Reds will disappear because they will have no reason to exist.

So patently uninformed on the subject it boggles the mind.

The Reds have their foot hold, and Thaksin or no Thaksin, yellows or no yellows, more likely with no Thaksin, they will push for their 'workers paradise' in any and all ways. He has reopened Pandora's box that was closed in the 70's, and we will all pay the price for his choice of temporary bedfellows.

The Yellows were protesting to get rid of Thaksin's corruption.

The ' making mayhem ' was caused by repeated violent attacks against them,

that radicalized their actions in self-defense. Culminating with the Oct 7th

shooting fish in a barrel incident, which with the night grenade attacks on their camp at Gov, House, lead to their taking the airport.

Lacking the extreme violence and deaths 'brought to them' by their opponents, it was obvious at the time that they would not have bothered with the airport but would have just continued their loud barking protest at G.H.

They since gone off the rails philosophically all on their own.

Ah, but the Reds, they have a core ideological group, based on neo-Maoist

action theory, and they have been handed a organizational umbrella to use.

Something denied them for 40 years.

They are not going to fade away as being nothing more than 'a counter to the yellows'. They have much longer term aims,emanating from the leadership that made a devils deal with Thaksins thugs and ass-kissers.

So if the Reds are "our best protection for democracy against the Yellows, Blues, Multi color ...." who the hell will protect the great majority of the populace from The reds????

Edited December 21, 2011 by animatic

[Crushdepth]

The red shirts are not the problem and asking them to 'disband' is unreasonable. The real problem is the billionaire puppeteer and his politics of division.

[rixalex]

I don't think the Redshirts would comply with a PTP or Thaksin request to disband. The Redshirts are using Thaksin, just as he has used them. As soon as they are of no use to each other, they will turn on each other.

Completely agree with this, and again it points at the fact that the Red Shirts = Thaksin = PTP equation was always wrong, i

No, it was always right, and remains right to this day. You are always pointing to the future, and how the group might develop, and you may well be right, but until that point is reached, it all remains speculation, and hopeful speculation at that.

At present - and present is all we can really reasonably deal with - the equation is spot on. They are simply different parts of the exact same movement. Fool yourself that they aren't, by all means, but don't expect others to be fooled along with you.

[tlansford]

The Reds are our best protection for democracy against the Yellows, Blues, Multi color ....

The only reason we didn't have a repeat of the previous election when the Yellows created mayhem until they had the government of their choice against the popular vote is because this time they knew they will have the Reds in front of them.

Disband the Yellows and the Reds will disappear because they will have no reason to exist.

So patently uninformed on the subject it boggles the mind.

The Reds have their foot hold, and Thaksin or no Thaksin, yellows or no yellows, more likely with no Thaksin, they will push for their 'workers paradise' in any and all ways. He has reopened Pandora's box that was closed in the 70's, and we will all pay the price for his choice of temporary bedfellows.

The Yellows were protesting to get rid of Thaksin's corruption.

The ' making mayhem ' was caused by repeated violent attacks against them,

that radicalized their actions in self-defense. Culminating with the Oct 7th

shooting fish in a barrel incident, which with the night grenade attacks on their camp at Gov, House, lead to their taking the airport.

Lacking the extreme violence and deaths 'brought to them' by their opponents, it was obvious at the time that they would not have bothered with the airport but would have just continued their loud barking protest at G.H.

They since gone off the rails philosophically all on their own.

Ah, but the Reds, they have a core ideological group, based on neo-Maoist

action theory, and they have been handed a organizational umbrella to use.

Something denied them for 40 years.

They are not going to fade away as being nothing more than 'a counter to the yellows'. They have much longer term aims,emanating from the leadership that made a devils deal with Thaksins thugs and ass-kissers.

So if the Reds are "our best protection for democracy against the Yellows, Blues, Multi color ...." who the hell will protect the great majority of the populace from The reds????

So patently uninformed on the subject it boggles the mind.

Animatic, agree with you but not for the same post... neo-Maoist? Really? organizational umbrella ... denied them for 40 years? Really? The PAD was only violent in reaction to violence against them? Really? I think your characterizations are a bit simplistic on one hand and rather imaginative on the other.

I do agree with you, however, that the Red Shirt movement will not just "go away".

[LomSak27]

The Yellows were protesting to get rid of Thaksin's corruption.

The ' making mayhem ' was caused by repeated violent attacks against them,

that radicalized their actions in self-defense. Culminating with the Oct 7th

shooting fish in a barrel incident, which with the night grenade attacks on their camp at Gov, House, lead to their taking the airport.

You are so deep in it Ani, it's coming out your ears now

[hanuman1]

I don't think the Redshirts would comply with a PTP or Thaksin request to disband. The Redshirts are using Thaksin, just as he has used them. As soon as they are of no use to each other, they will turn on each other.

Completely agree with this, and again it points at the fact that the Red Shirts = Thaksin = PTP equation was always wrong, i

No, it was always right, and remains right to this day. You are always pointing to the future, and how the group might develop, and you may well be right, but until that point is reached, it all remains speculation, and hopeful speculation at that.

At present - and present is all we can really reasonably deal with - the equation is spot on. They are simply different parts of the exact same movement. Fool yourself that they aren't, by all means, but don't expect others to be fooled along with you.

Okay, so now we're doing the patronizing thing...my turn.

By all means, pretend that three ships sailing in the same direction all have the same captain (clones?). It is easy to do, I know. Doesn't take much thought, does it?

A deeper understanding will reveal that they may temporarily have the same attitude, but what lies on their decks and inside their hulls is quite different.

Maybe the problem here is just semantics. 'The same' to you is determined solely by the (limited) perception of outward appearance. 'The same' to me requires something a bit more substantive in order to be true.

Sheesh. You habitual anti-gov/red/Thaksin posters are all 'the same'. (joke, but with a point. apologies to whoever got it already.)

Edited December 21, 2011 by hanuman1

[tlansford]

As Abhisit is intelligent, he knows that a socio-political movement does not disband, nor can it "be disbanded". We're not talking about the Lions Club here.

I would say that he is either posturing, or talking more to the point made by Crushdepth in #13.

Agree with Hanuman1 that Red Shirts = Thaksin = PTP is the wrong relationship. There are very strong dependencies between them and interconnections, but that equation is off the mark.

[Babcock]

Abhisit and all the loyalists fear the redshirts but they're not going away. He gives them every reason to stay.

For the loyalists it's all about order, even if under an army boot. The redshirts campaigned under the slogan " no double standards."

The people want Law and Order and they want it equally applied. Many of the middle classes here in Bangkok (yellow shirts) simply want to suck up to the elite in the vain hope that they too can be above the law. They are so brainwashed like many who post here on TV!

[kutjebu]

there were no more red-shirt villages and the movement was dispersed.That's the same you sad that the democrats are dispersed in the U.S or Labor in the U.K. Abhisit means that idiot?

Edited December 21, 2011 by soundman
Font.

[kutjebu]

Abhisit and all the loyalists fear the redshirts but they're not going away. He gives them every reason to stay.

For the loyalists it's all about order, even if under an army boot. The redshirts campaigned under the slogan " no double standards."

The people want Law and Order and they want it equally applied. Many of the middle classes here in Bangkok (yellow shirts) simply want to suck up to the elite in the vain hope that they too can be above the law. They are so brainwashed like many who post here on TV!

I cannot say it better.

[animatic]

I don't think the Redshirts would comply with a PTP or Thaksin request to disband. The Redshirts are using Thaksin, just as he has used them. As soon as they are of no use to each other, they will turn on each other.

Completely agree with this, and again it points at the fact that the Red Shirts = Thaksin = PTP equation was always wrong, i

No, it was always right, and remains right to this day. You are always pointing to the future, and how the group might develop, and you may well be right, but until that point is reached, it all remains speculation, and hopeful speculation at that.

At present - and present is all we can really reasonably deal with - the equation is spot on. They are simply different parts of the exact same movement. Fool yourself that they aren't, by all means, but don't expect others to be fooled along with you.

They are all tied together for the moment,

but the Reds are clearly trying to grow in reach and numbers without control of PTP's umbrella.

Unless Thaksin stomps out the Red Leadership if / when he grabs back power, it will be them against the old school anti communist forces, whom Thaksin may put into disarray for his own purposes,m leaving no one to push back against the true ulterior motives of the momentarily quiet Red Leaders

If he doesn't totally strong arm the Reds, they will be loose cannons undermining him, just like this weeks ex red guard bomber they are trying to disavow. But the real scary ones are the Quiet Red Leaders, patiently waiting under faux-capitalist / faux-democracy / fox in sheeples clothing, to strike when opportunity presents itself.

Edited December 21, 2011 by animatic

[animatic]

The Reds are our best protection for democracy against the Yellows, Blues, Multi color ....

The only reason we didn't have a repeat of the previous election when the Yellows created mayhem until they had the government of their choice against the popular vote is because this time they knew they will have the Reds in front of them.

Disband the Yellows and the Reds will disappear because they will have no reason to exist.

So patently uninformed on the subject it boggles the mind.

The Reds have their foot hold, and Thaksin or no Thaksin, yellows or no yellows, more likely with no Thaksin, they will push for their 'workers paradise' in any and all ways. He has reopened Pandora's box that was closed in the 70's, and we will all pay the price for his choice of temporary bedfellows.

The Yellows were protesting to get rid of Thaksin's corruption.

The ' making mayhem ' was caused by repeated violent attacks against them,

that radicalized their actions in self-defense. Culminating with the Oct 7th

shooting fish in a barrel incident, which with the night grenade attacks on their camp at Gov, House, lead to their taking the airport.

Lacking the extreme violence and deaths 'brought to them' by their opponents, it was obvious at the time that they would not have bothered with the airport but would have just continued their loud barking protest at G.H.

They since gone off the rails philosophically all on their own.

Ah, but the Reds, they have a core ideological group, based on neo-Maoist

action theory, and they have been handed a organizational umbrella to use.

Something denied them for 40 years.

They are not going to fade away as being nothing more than 'a counter to the yellows'. They have much longer term aims,emanating from the leadership that made a devils deal with Thaksins thugs and ass-kissers.

So if the Reds are "our best protection for democracy against the Yellows, Blues, Multi color ...." who the hell will protect the great majority of the populace from The reds????

So patently uninformed on the subject it boggles the mind.

Animatic, agree with you but not for the same post... neo-Maoist? Really? organizational umbrella ... denied them for 40 years? Really? The PAD was only violent in reaction to violence against them? Really? I think your characterizations are a bit simplistic on one hand and rather imaginative on the other.

I do agree with you, however, that the Red Shirt movement will not just "go away".

I suggest you read up on how Mao took over and controlled the populace of China.

Same methods and ways on display here, as the early Maoist methods, which have been written up in many books.

[rixalex]

A deeper understanding will reveal that they may temporarily have the same attitude, but what lies on their decks and inside their hulls is quite different.

Not may have the same attitude, they do have the same attitude, and as for temporarily, how can you call something temporary when that has been their position since they came into existence.

Maybe the problem here is just semantics.

Nope. The problem here is your desperation and your wishful thinking that has you describing something not as it as but as you think / hope it might be at some future time.

[Babcock]

You see there are many redshirts who do not support thaksin. Then I read often that ptp are seeking accommodation with the elite. Currently ptp have to tread carefully as senate/ judiciary stacked against them.

[rixalex]

The redshirts campaigned under the slogan " no double standards."

Campaigned under it and then proceeded to show themselves to be as adept at applying double standards as anybody else.

The people want Law and Order and they want it equally applied.

LOL. And you have the audacity to accuse others of being brainwashed?!

[OzMick]

Abhisit and all the loyalists fear the redshirts but they're not going away. He gives them every reason to stay.

For the loyalists it's all about order, even if under an army boot. The redshirts campaigned under the slogan " no double standards."

The people want Law and Order and they want it equally applied. Many of the middle classes here in Bangkok (yellow shirts) simply want to suck up to the elite in the vain hope that they too can be above the law. They are so brainwashed like many who post here on TV!

No double standards, law and order - red shirt style. What a maroon! (Bugs Bunny c1950)

[rixalex]

You see there are many redshirts who do not support thaksin.

If a red shirt truly didn't support Thaksin, they would have to withdraw their support for that movement, as that movement, shows time and time again, that its main drive and focus is simply to aid that man. All the other claimed drives are wallpaper.

But anyway, i have met many red shirts in my time, but not one, hasn't in some form or other, in one degree or other, supported Thaksin. I will believe that a non-Thaksin supporting red shirt exists when you show me one.

[DP25]

Abhisit and all the loyalists fear the redshirts but they're not going away. He gives them every reason to stay.

For the loyalists it's all about order, even if under an army boot. The redshirts campaigned under the slogan " no double standards."

The people want Law and Order and they want it equally applied. Many of the middle classes here in Bangkok (yellow shirts) simply want to suck up to the elite in the vain hope that they too can be above the law. They are so brainwashed like many who post here on TV!

I should be used to it by now but I am always astonished whenever I see someone claim with a straight face that the reds are interested in law and order, want it equally applied to all, and are somehow anti 'elite' when they are fighting tooth and nail to absolve a billionaire elitist criminal of his crimes and to return his billions of dollars to him. They are for the common man yet spend all their time making sure the rich in Thailand do not have to pay taxes and that they do not have to go to jail when they are caught not paying taxes. For the common man but when they get in power all they do is make sure the rich don't get in trouble for not paying taxes, that the large corporations they control get massive tax cuts, and that the rich can buy cars and luxury homes tax free.

[Babcock]

The Reds are our best protection for democracy against the Yellows, Blues, Multi color ....

The only reason we didn't have a repeat of the previous election when the Yellows created mayhem until they had the government of their choice against the popular vote is because this time they knew they will have the Reds in front of them.

Disband the Yellows and the Reds will disappear because they will have no reason to exist.

So patently uninformed on the subject it boggles the mind.

The Reds have their foot hold, and Thaksin or no Thaksin, yellows or no yellows, more likely with no Thaksin, they will push for their 'workers paradise' in any and all ways. He has reopened Pandora's box that was closed in the 70's, and we will all pay the price for his choice of temporary bedfellows.

The Yellows were protesting to get rid of Thaksin's corruption.

The ' making mayhem ' was caused by repeated violent attacks against them,

that radicalized their actions in self-defense. Culminating with the Oct 7th

shooting fish in a barrel incident, which with the night grenade attacks on their camp at Gov, House, lead to their taking the airport.

Lacking the extreme violence and deaths 'brought to them' by their opponents, it was obvious at the time that they would not have bothered with the airport but would have just continued their loud barking protest at G.H.

They since gone off the rails philosophically all on their own.

Ah, but the Reds, they have a core ideological group, based on neo-Maoist

action theory, and they have been handed a organizational umbrella to use.

Something denied them for 40 years.

They are not going to fade away as being nothing more than 'a counter to the yellows'. They have much longer term aims,emanating from the leadership that made a devils deal with Thaksins thugs and ass-kissers.

So if the Reds are "our best protection for democracy against the Yellows, Blues, Multi color ...." who the hell will protect the great majority of the populace from The reds????

Where do you get these weird ideas about communism from?

Everyone in Thailand knows that communism doesn't work. Hell, the thai communist party objected to being told what to do by the Cambodian communists who quarrelled with the vietnamese communists.

In the end the thai communists imploded.

No what you and others are really afraid of, even if you don't know it yet, is socialism, the word banned from thai politics.

What the PAD did is well documented. They use a swastika as an emblem for their political party. That kinda tells you where they're coming from.

They've lost most of their support. The trade unions have left them once their membership discovered that their membership would be denied a vote should the Pad ever come to power.

The protests were initially about corruption but only Thaksin's corruption and to date we have 2 phoney convictions for him.

No prosecution over all the drug deaths. I wonder why? Why couldn't Abhisit take him down over this horrendous episode?

You can't answer that can you?