Huge Widening Income Gap

[greenwanderer108]

This is not to pry into the personal lives of anyone specifically, I'm just curious what the average salary range actually is for TV members. I assume it's somewhere between 30-50k

Anyway what brought this curiousity up is yesterday I had a conversation with my GF who works clerical/sales at a 5 star hotel in Bangkok. She was telling me the salaries of some of her 'superiors' which really sparked something in me. I'm not usually prone to jealousy but when I heard the salaries of some of these elite in the hotel business, I couldn't help it

The Thai sales manager who's been working for 5 years or so makes 40k/month, which doesn't bother me.

But it's two of the main directors salaries that got to me. One who is Japanese, gets 140k a month!! So she can speak Japanese, Thai, and English. Pay me half that and I'll learn any language you want.

Her Thai superior gets 210k per month!! I'd have to work half a year to match one month. My gf would have to work more than a year. Does anyone else find such facts disturbing?

Maybe some people will argue that it's their right, and they're worthy of such money. I can't seem to find any justification for such wealth knowing that 1000 other Thais have to be getting paid 5 thousand baht a month so that one or two elite can get that much. I doubt they work any harder than anyone else and assume it's just the financial gap stratification at play.

[Jai Dee]

What currency?

Thai Baht... US Dollars... Pounds Sterling... ?

[HarryHacker]

.....why stop at 80k?

[think_too_mut]

But it's two of the main directors salaries that got to me. One who is Japanese, gets 140k a month!! So she can speak Japanese, Thai, and English. Pay me half that and I'll learn any language you want.

Her Thai superior gets 210k per month!! I'd have to work half a year to match one month. My gf would have to work more than a year. Does anyone else find such facts disturbing?    

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hospitality industry is the worst paying place. Those guys would be on double that if they woked with a "regular" multinational company. I don't know why the peanuts they are on bother you.

[Neeranam]

What currency?

Thai Baht... US Dollars... Pounds Sterling... ? cool.gif

You're joking surely JD?

[solo siam]

5,000 US$ a month isnt a lot for a very senior director at a large 5* Hotel, regardless of race or country.

Thats about the same as a Garbage man makes in the states, With overtime you could earn that amount working at Mcdonalds as a Team Leader.

Its always easy to look at other peoples jobs and come to the conclusion that they dont do much for their money, without understanding the responsibility, time and dedication that a position at that level requires.

[Jai Dee]

What currency?

Thai Baht... US Dollars... Pounds Sterling... ? cool.gif

You're joking surely JD?

I am mate...

But on the flip side... I do know people working in BKK on expat salary + bonus packages in excess of K$US 20 per month...

Oh to be one of those lucky ones...

[Firefan]

I think you estimate the TV members average salary a bit low my friend.

Expats in most management positions will easily be in the $3-6k/month range with top levels earning $10k+ and far beyond as already mentioned.

The Thai higher level positions can get close to the mentioned levels - modern companys no longer bother whether it is a Brit, Dane or whatever sitting in the top positions - they look for the right PEOPLE - and will pay accordingly.

Back to the poll; even an average pension income from most western countries will put you in the around B 60k/mth bracket. Add maybe a small company pension. So the many here on retirement visas might have more than (or fit into) your highest bracket.

Cheers!

[Heng]

In the end, it's only money. If you own a home, have a car, eat three full meals a day, you're already doing better than what... 90% of the people on earth? It's all relative.

[greenwanderer108]

5,000 US$ a month isnt a lot for a very senior director at a large 5* Hotel, regardless of race or country. 

Thats about the same as a Garbage man makes in the states, With overtime you could earn that amount working at Mcdonalds as a Team Leader.

Its always easy to look at other peoples jobs and come to the conclusion that they dont do much for their money, without understanding the responsibility, time and dedication that a position at that level requires.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. No garbage man makes 5000 dollars a month in the states! At a full time 40 hour week that averages to 25 dollars an hour for a 200 hour month. Most months won't even reach 200 hours.

2. And no possible way in hel_l, any position except actually being the owner of a franchise, are you going to make 25 dollars an hour at macdonalds. Managers don't even pull in 2000 dollars a month.

Think you should do your math.

BTW. More than 100 thousand baht a month is not peanuts. What the heck are you going to do with that kind of money in Thailand except get richer...Hospitality, 5 star, bla, bla, The only thing I see is a widening gap. These people can save a million baht an under a year...What are they going to buy in Thailand? Property, stocks, ok so they'll get even richer. What about duds like me barely pulling in 30k a month. You know how difficult it is for me to get property, being farang aside. I'd have to be in debt to a bank for 20-30 years just to be an owner of some 26 square meter studio room, where someone making 'peanuts' at a 5 star hotel can buy a house with a year's savings.

Ok, I can't let jealousy take over here...either way, I don't think such elite prestige benefits any society.

[greenwanderer108]

Ok, if I underestimated the average salary of the expats here, I don't see any argument in those complaining about double standards and stereotypes held to us foreigners.

I've always been stereotyped by Thais that becasue I'm from America, I have to be rich when in fact I never had more than what I made from my own labor. Never had enough savings to invest in anything, but then again, never was hungry.

If in fact on average, foreigners/expats are pulling in such high salaries more than 5000 USD a month here in Thailand, than many of the stereotypes on foreigners now seem more justified.

Jai dee, got any odd jobs you want to me on the payroll for. Geez, 20k USD a month? I'll do anything you want except take/give it in the bum for a meesly 1000 dollars a month. wash your windows, keep your maids happy, whatever

[Jai Dee]

Jai dee, got any odd jobs you want to me on the payroll for.

Mate, re-read my post... I said I knew people on those types of salaries... not I am one of them.

And don't worry... your bum is quite safe from me...

[Patex]

greenwanderer108, You vegetate on 35 000฿ a month in Bangkok? ! How can you survive with this small amount of money? Please give us a picture how to do. You are wasting your time, Thailand can offer you more, if not, why you not planing a "workingvacation" in the usa for the next rainy season?

[The Dude]

Yeah dude, like why don't you go back to the states and earn some real cash and come back in 20 years. You're poverty packin' it man and that's no way to go through life. I could have never done what you're doing. Those hotel salaries are peanuts and I concur with the poster who said that garbage men in the US make 5K per month cause they do, at least, and what he said about MCD workers is also very true. You're not very in tune with reality regarding this issue, your dudeness

[Firefan]

He,he - these cost of living in Thailand threads always seem to get out of whack but I do have teacher friends earning about 35k/mth in BKK and they are still living an ok life style with studio w. cable/internet/beers/eating out Etc. Not dinners at Hotel Oriental every night - but who cares? Cheers!

[greenwanderer108]

greenwanderer108,                                                                                          You vegetate on 35 000฿ a month in Bangkok?  ! How can you survive with this small amount of money? Please give us a picture how to do. You are wasting your time, Thailand can offer you more, if not, why you not planing a "workingvacation" in the usa for the next rainy season?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah dude, like why don't you go back to the states and earn some real cash and come back in 20 years. You're poverty packin' it man and that's no way to go through life. I could have never done what you're doing. Those hotel salaries are peanuts and I concur with the poster who said that garbage men in the US make 5K per month cause they do, at least, and what he said about MCD workers is also very true. You're not very in tune with reality regarding this issue, your dudeness

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did one working vacation back in 2003. Got back to Colorado, after filling out applications for three weeks, finally got a job at 7-11 at 7.50 an hour. It was appealing as it was within walking distance to my residence (friends pad, rent free for me) I got roughly 40 hours a week, every other week getting five hours or so of OT in. Average monthly stub minus taxes was 1200 a month. Most corporations like that try to limit how much OT goes on the clock but obviously it's not possible with the instability at such wage.

Sure, I could have made more say doing construction, however the building season slows down during the fall/winter in Colorado.

Because I wasn't making car/house payments, I was able to save a little money to come back to Thailand. Had I been payin rent/car/insurance, then yea it would take me 20 years to save any money.

In the end after three months of work, I only brought back 1500 bucks. (spent a big portion of that money travelling cross state to be with my sisters and nephews/neices on Christmas, not to mention paying back a loan from my friend for the LAX-DEN air ticket) Bottom line, I could have saved just as much in Thailand without ever have leaving, paying for air tickets, etc.

In comparison, I like my qaulity of life here in Thailand more than I did in the states. I enjoy my line of work here much more. Here, I am a journalist and teacher with mostly a freelance schedule. Where back in the states, I'm limited to being a robotic laborer on the clock in/out deal.

My income here is more than sufficent to support myself and my family. Sure I 'm not gettin rich, but I'm certainly not starving. My rent is always paid, I get where I need to be, and besides the beer is cheaper and stronger here too.

I think you are mislead about a garbage man pulling 25 bucks an hour. Maybe in NYC or Hollywood, but certainly not in Colorado. And I am definately positive that you can't make 25 dollars an hour at Macdonalds anywhere in the states. Starting is 6 bucks an hour. I know this from experience. Team leaders usually go for around 10 bucks an hour. The GMs will pull a salary of 25k a year if their lucky, but certainly not 5000 bucks a month. That's upsurd!

[awarrumbungle]

As someone said it's only money and you are doing better than mostof the wolrd. Go to The Global Rich List for a reality check.

You are also comparing $US to Thai Baht!! This always makes for confusion.

240,000baht is RELATIVELY a lot of money. Can you tell me that the person in that position holds (in reality) that much more responsibility, and (in reality) works that much harder?

Come on! How can you justify that massive wage disparity. US$ don't count.

Edited December 1, 2005 by awarrumbungle

[thedude]

that's why globalisation sucks.

[awarrumbungle]

Sorry I don't see the clear causal link between globalisation and income disparity.

Globalisation is more than just GM and Monsanto.....

A lot would argue that certain kinds of globalisation could improve this disparity.

[steveromagnino]

As someone said it's only money and you are doing better than mostof the wolrd.  Go to The Global Rich List for a reality check.

You are also comparing $US to Thai Baht!!  This always makes for confusion.

240,000baht is RELATIVELY a lot of money.  Can you tell me that the person in that position holds (in reality) that much more responsibility, and (in reality) works that much harder?

Come on!  How can you justify that massive wage disparity.  US$ don't count.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, if someone is willing to pay a person that much per month ( and most of my Thai friends of my age or the next 10 years up all earn somewhere around that number of above) then they must be doing something right. Market forces and all dat innit.

I thought to get a work permit you HAD to earn at least about 60k a month excluding teachers/journalists/volunteers? So surely most of the expats here would be earning that and most likely considerably more than that?

While in the provinces people don't earn that much, the economy in Bangkok is somewhat different; for many industries (excluding civil service, government related industries, small enterprises employing upcuontry labour) a Bangkok born and bred employee with a degree from an ok univerisity might expect to reach 30k a month by age 30 without too much problem; for a foreign educated masters grad with solid language skills, 100k by age 30 would be ambititious but very possible.

And of course some industries like mgt consulting pay well good wages beyond that sort of level.

Of course, many people earn less than that too.

The problem is that for non-business journalists, english teachers and educators, the degree of interaction with the business world is perhaps not so great, so harder to see the levels of wages in play at the moment.

Regarding McDs employees.... about $6++ an hour; if they are really earning $60k USD a year.....well no wonder there are so many immigrants working at McDonalds :_)

[awarrumbungle]

Market forces sure, you keep the poor poor. You pay them a pittance so they are all too scared to demand more. I don't know how the 'free-market' model sorts out the massive wage disparity problems. I thought that is where gov'ts come in to create some sort of balance. One thing is for sure 'the tickle down effect' is bunk.

I believe the 60k minimum wage has something to do with being american. If your aus or uk then it's 30k. Is that right?? Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Disclosure: I work in the out provinces so 240k a month is extra impressive from where I'm standing. (Have to consider how much the hotel garbage man gets a month too though )

[greenwanderer108]

As someone said it's only money and you are doing better than mostof the wolrd.  Go to The Global Rich List for a reality check.

You are also comparing $US to Thai Baht!!  This always makes for confusion.

240,000baht is RELATIVELY a lot of money.  Can you tell me that the person in that position holds (in reality) that much more responsibility, and (in reality) works that much harder?

Come on!  How can you justify that massive wage disparity.  US$ don't count.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think she said that this particular lady is like the sales director/manager. Some sort of executive position in the sales department. I guess that lady is in her 50's and has been with that hotel almost all her life, so then I guess it is somewhat justifiable.But doesn't make me any less jealous knowing her offspring generations will have a breeze through life.

I just don't see how a hotel, five star or not can afford to pay such salaries. It must be the stocks/shares and other revenues.

Lets say a 5* hotel with 50 rooms was fully booked at 8,000 baht a night for 75 percent of the year thats 50 x 8000 x 255 = 102 million baht anual revenue

For wages, lets say 100 maids made 6000 baht a month that's 7.2 million baht a year

And say another 100 workers in various departments maid average 10k a month

That's 12 million baht

And say 50 managers averaged 50k a month

thats 30 million

With say 20 more averaging 100k a month,

that's another 24 million

And let's say 10 executive levels were pulling 200k a month

another 24 million

Altogether wages for a year would almost be 100 million baht. What about maintence and utilities? I just don't see how a hotel can afford such wages. Perhaps I'm overestimating the wages and staff numbers. Can someone in the business enlighten me more.

[awarrumbungle]

You may possibly underestimating the number of rooms. ??? 100 maids for 50 rooms seems a little much.???

[greenwanderer108]

According to the global rich list,

Some one making 200,000 baht a month, which is equiv. to roughly 5000 dollars /month or 60,000 dollars a year

...makes 41.66 dolars an hour, is 0.839% richest persons in the world.

and has 5,949,632,435 people poorer than he/she

That pretty much cuts out garbage men, macdonalds team leaders, and 'peanuts' as a salary description

[GuestHouse]

I'm just curious what the average salary range actually is for TV members. I assume it's somewhere between 30-50k

The going rate for an expatriate assigned to Thailand in the industry I work in roun out at around:

Home (Base) Salary + 20-30%

Local Living Allowances Bht60K-150K

Car

Medical Insurance

R&R Flights

Pensions and other home benefits maintained.

Assignees with children receive schooling allowances that are generally at the international school rates. + extension of insurance etc for family.

The variations above are aproximate depending on employers.

[slimdog]

A decent 5 star hotel in a worlds capital is going to set you back about US$100 million to US$ 200 million, and that includes Bangkok.

If you had this kind of money and decided to buy the Dusit Thani Hotel, what would you be prepared to pay the manager. How much would you pay to protect your investment. The same goes for Industry and Finance. Setting up a factory to produce Hard Drives or Cars or whatever costs big money, would you be looking to pay the lowest wage possible for the person running it, or would you try and find the best Manager possible.

[think_too_mut]

Lets say a 5* hotel with 50 rooms was fully booked at 8,000 baht a night for 75 percent of the year thats 50 x 8000 x 255 = 102 million baht anual revenue

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Been to a 5* hotel? Then you know they are 4-500 rooms and up up.

Exception are some boutique offshots where 1 night is in thousands US$.

For a 5* hotel to break even, a friend who is a manager at Hyatt said - 26% occupancy is enough. He is full to the brim all year round.

The Marriott Resort & Spa in BKK with 413 rooms was bursting at the seams in the worst of low, rainy, season in October. Landmark, JW Marriott, all 5* like that.

[thedude]

Sorry I don't see the clear causal link between globalisation and income disparity.

Globalisation is more than just GM and Monsanto.....

A lot would argue that certain kinds of globalisation could improve this disparity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

income disparity is one of the downsides of globalisation. i am not against globalisation per se, but it gives rise to some blatant inequities as seen through the eyes of the local population.

simple example, why should a top thai executive at the pinnacle of thai society be deprived of living in a nice big house with a pool in sukhumvit because he is crowded out by rising costs attributed to thousands of mid-level american expatriates working for american MNCs who are willing to pay the market rental at Baht 200,000 per house? 20 years ago this wouldn't have happened.

of course, like you say, certain kinds of globalisation could improve the disparity, but it can be argued that in those cases, the disparity it corrects is really in reciprocative access to a global market, and this is really only relevant to a very small number of highly educated thais who have opportunity to join a global knowledge network and be paid "global" standard wages. examples would be thais working for international consultants like Mckenzie who are earning a global pay, or specialised people in certain banking or scientific fields whose skill is applicable in a regional or global basis. cases like this are the exception rather than the norm, and there certainly isn't the educational infrastructure to help thais leverage on this phenomenon.

many foreign companies are only here because its cheaper to manufacture here paying local labour rates. if it becomes cheaper or otherwise more viable to manufacture in a neighbouring country, the foreign company will have no problem uprooting itself and moving base. the local workers who had been saving up and borrowing from the local bank to buy their first home, pick-up truck and tv etc suddenly becomes jobless and unable to sustain their loans. many would argue that apart from direct initial capital, there is little evidence of sustained benefit coming from globalisation.

Edited December 1, 2005 by thedude

[awarrumbungle]

on the topic of cheap labour and globalisation I once heard a qoute (don't ask who from because I can't remember)

"globablisation will just bring the rich to poverty level of the rest of te world"

obviously referring to cheap labour sough out by big companies which leaves workers back home jobless.

But on a longer scale.... this could even itself out..???

[Neeranam]

greenwanderer108, You vegetate on 35 000฿ a month in Bangkok? crying.gif ! How can you survive with this small amount of money? Please give us a picture how to do. You are wasting your time, Thailand can offer you more, if not, why you not planing a "workingvacation" in the usa for the next rainy season?

I lived in Bangkok for many years on this salary - with a wife and kid too!

13,000 a month for a nice house with a swimming pool.

About 20,000 a month to play around with, more than enough!

Yeah dude, like why don't you go back to the states and earn some real cash and come back in 20 years.

Don't listen to this advice - you may be dead in 20 years.

Stay here for 20 years and I bet you'll find a way of getting the big money, if you want it.

If you are happier here than the USA, stay here. 35,000 baht a month here is equivalent to how much in Colorado, taking into account cost and standard of living?

$40,000 a year?

I left a job in the UK 13/14 years ago getting 1500 baht an hour(240,000 baht a month) to get less than 200(20,000 baht a month) baht an hour. Honestly, it was the best move I ever made. Money does not bring happiness.

If I got offered a job for 500,000 baht a month in the USA, I'd have to think about it, I certainly couldn't do it for very long..