Smoke, Smog, Dust 2012 Chiang Mai

[meadish_sweetball]

You have 10 fingers on both your hands. Then count backwards starting on your left hand and moving each finger: thumb (10), forefinger (9), middle finger (8), ring finger (7), baby finger (6 = six)

Start at ten *before* you start subtracting fingers and you'll be sure to reach the correct number of remaining digits.

[chiang mai]

Finally got a good chunk of rain Muang and some of the strongest winds I have seen anywhere, pretty scary stuff for these parts with a couple of local roofs and many electicity transformers now long gone.

[harrry]

Maybe not PCD falsifying the data but it certainly is not good data collection when hoses are sprayed in the air around a sampling point as happened this year in Chiang Rai.

[Mapguy]

Priceless, you will never get it.

You believe in the bible = PCD measurements. Some guys, me too, don’t. You try to convince us that we have to believe. You would like to make us believe, that Jesus walked over the water without plunging. To be fair we, the infidel, cannot improve the opposite that this really didn‘t happen.

[...]

I'll try to explain why I believe in the PCD measurements, even though I understand that I will never convince you, a true believer.

The PCD, unlike most comparable authorities in different countries, publish daily measurements for dozens of stations around the country. They have been doing this since the late 90's and keep all the results on-line for anybody to study. This makes it possible for outsiders like me to apply a number of more or less sophisticated statistical methods to evaluate whether these numbers are plausible or not. This I have done over the years, and found nothing to indicate that they are not, even though there are, of course, individual numbers that are most probably wrong. This means e.g. that results correlate in a way that one would expect with neighbouring and more distant stations, with long-term weather patterns and with known changes in the weather.

If we for a moment assume that the PCD is deliberately falsifying all its data, this would require an enormously complicated algorithm that I, quite frankly, believe would be far beyond the capabilities of the PCD. Also, I have lived in Chiang Mai since 2006 and followed the pollution problem on a more or less daily basis since the following year. Almost never have I, for an individual day, found the PCD numbers differ significantly from my subjective experience.

Incidentally I am not, and have never been, religious. Neither do I believe that the Earth is flat, that Elvis lives, that president Kennedy was shot with a cross-bow by the CIA or that Marilyn Monroe will come back to earth on Judgement Day. I do, however, tend to believe in statements from sources that ought to be reliable and where I can myself make a reasonable evaluation of their credibility.

I can see from your profile that you are a newcomer to ThaiVisa. I obviously do not know whether you are also a newcomer to Thailand/Chiang Mai. In any case, I think it would be a good idea for you to abandon your apparent conviction that anything said or published by Thai authorities or Thais in general has to be false. It is at least prejudicial, if not worse, and may eventually cause you trouble if you continue living in this country.

/ Priceless

+1

[ogb]

I think it would be a good idea for you to abandon your apparent conviction that anything said or published by Thai authorities or Thais in general has to be false. It is at least prejudicial, if not worse, and may eventually cause you trouble if you continue living in this country.

/ Priceless

To totally abandon the idea might also eventually cause you trouble

[puck2]

Priceless,

Thank you for your answer in spite of our different viewpoints.

I think you confirm that we have a different viewpoint of believing in the PCD data.

I'll try to explain why I believe in the PCD measurements, even though I understand that I will never convince you, a true believer.

If we are going on arguing it will be endless. Belief is no substitute for knowledge or reality. You explained only your belief, and not some exact knowledge of PCD‘s equipment.

If we for a moment assume that the PCD is deliberately falsifying all its data, this would require an enormously complicated algorithm that I, quite frankly, believe would be far beyond the capabilities of the PCD

cannot convince me.

- Delivering no results for some „hot“ days cannot be „complicated“, but well intentioned.

- To miss out many days with a high pollution has the character of untrustworthiness, is a big shortcoming.

- The poor number of (2) measurement stations in CNX and in the North.

- The unrepresentative location of these stations. There is none near to the point with the highest pollution.

- As the government and all the other bureaucratic powers didn’t seriously move any finger - figuratively speaking - to reduce the pollution all these years, so there cannot be a long-time downwards trend. How can the trend go down over the years without any human interference??? Specially the answer to this question should kill your belief into the downwards trend. You may write many pages about why you believe in PCD tables, but it is against the fact that the high or low fire pollution is only dominated by the weather conditions.

And weather has it’s own rules of ups and downs as long as the gov and the offices don’t work against the yearly fires and different polluters.

Rain, no rain, wind or storm, or an inversion like this year, they determine the pollution results. Inversion is defined (in brief) as no air exchange/movement between a warm upper and a cold lower air layer.

And this is the “subjective experience” of many posters here. Therefore we don’t need dubious tables with very questionable roots and incomplete data of a pollution downward trend. A statistic of the sick people resulting from the fire pollution would be nearer to the reality than your calculated trend.

I can see from your profile that you are a newcomer to ThaiVisa. I obviously do not know whether you are also a newcomer to Thailand/Chiang Mai. In any case, I think it would be a good idea for you to abandon your apparent conviction that anything said or published by Thai authorities or Thais in general has to be false. It is at least prejudicial, if not worse, and may eventually cause you trouble if you continue living in this country.

Thank you for your well intentioned advice.

I didn‘t make any statistic about my erroneous prejudices. Maybe I‘m sometimes nearer to the reality than you or some tables.

BTW, I never had „apparent conviction that anything said or published by Thai authorities or Thais in general has to be false.“

Cause for distrust should be allowed.

[nikster]

stats still look excellent two peaks of 80 this week, the rest ... low. While the data can't be 100% trusted I have to say it does very much correlate to the visible and felt pollution. Or was, when I was in CM / the north.

However, 7 day forecast is sunny with no rain, so we'll have to see. Unless there's more rain before the rainy season, my prediction here is things will be back to the bad old ways within a week.

Long term downwards trend? Nahhhhhh ... no way. Neither is there an upwards trend. And why would there be when the amount of pollution is pretty much determined by weather patterns. A wet year followed by a dry year means there's lots of underbrush to burn and so the dry year will be the worst. Weather is the only factor in pollution. People don't' stop burning, and other factors - cars, korean bbqs - have no statistically meaningful impact.

Edited March 15, 2012 by nikster

[el jefe]

Priceless,

Thank you for your answer in spite of our different viewpoints.

I think you confirm that we have a different viewpoint of believing in the PCD data.

I'll try to explain why I believe in the PCD measurements, even though I understand that I will never convince you, a true believer.

If we are going on arguing it will be endless. Belief is no substitute for knowledge or reality. You explained only your belief, and not some exact knowledge of PCD‘s equipment.

If we for a moment assume that the PCD is deliberately falsifying all its data, this would require an enormously complicated algorithm that I, quite frankly, believe would be far beyond the capabilities of the PCD

cannot convince me.

- Delivering no results for some „hot“ days cannot be „complicated“, but well intentioned.

- To miss out many days with a high pollution has the character of untrustworthiness, is a big shortcoming.

- The poor number of (2) measurement stations in CNX and in the North.

- The unrepresentative location of these stations. There is none near to the point with the highest pollution.

- As the government and all the other bureaucratic powers didn’t seriously move any finger - figuratively speaking - to reduce the pollution all these years, so there cannot be a long-time downwards trend. How can the trend go down over the years without any human interference??? Specially the answer to this question should kill your belief into the downwards trend. You may write many pages about why you believe in PCD tables, but it is against the fact that the high or low fire pollution is only dominated by the weather conditions.

And weather has it’s own rules of ups and downs as long as the gov and the offices don’t work against the yearly fires and different polluters.

Rain, no rain, wind or storm, or an inversion like this year, they determine the pollution results. Inversion is defined (in brief) as no air exchange/movement between a warm upper and a cold lower air layer.

And this is the “subjective experience” of many posters here. Therefore we don’t need dubious tables with very questionable roots and incomplete data of a pollution downward trend. A statistic of the sick people resulting from the fire pollution would be nearer to the reality than your calculated trend.

I can see from your profile that you are a newcomer to ThaiVisa. I obviously do not know whether you are also a newcomer to Thailand/Chiang Mai. In any case, I think it would be a good idea for you to abandon your apparent conviction that anything said or published by Thai authorities or Thais in general has to be false. It is at least prejudicial, if not worse, and may eventually cause you trouble if you continue living in this country.

Thank you for your well intentioned advice.

I didn‘t make any statistic about my erroneous prejudices. Maybe I‘m sometimes nearer to the reality than you or some tables.

BTW, I never had „apparent conviction that anything said or published by Thai authorities or Thais in general has to be false.“

Cause for distrust should be allowed.

Yes, but the statistics "prove" that the 10 year trend in the air quality is improving. (Never mind the 5 year trend and that the burning season doesn't always start on the same day.) Obviously, based on the statistics presented in this thread, the govt is doing the right thing by doing nothing (nothing positive, anyway). I can't understand what all the complaining is about!

Edited March 15, 2012 by el jefe

[jaideeguy]

I've been following the daily fire map/pic for over a month now and this morning's map/pic it seemed a bit different in that there were a lot more fires up in Burma and wondering what that area in the middle of Burma with no fires is?? and why no fires there?

My general observations are that [judging by the map/pic] the worst burners are northern Thailand and central and eastern Burma and the fires seem to go back and forth over the borders and with no borders on the map/pic, it's hard to tell who is the 'winner' of the burning fields contest.......I just know that we are the loosers.

[MESmith]

My general observations are that [judging by the map/pic] the worst burners are northern Thailand and central and eastern Burma and the fires seem to go back and forth over the borders and with no borders on the map/pic, it's hard to tell who is the 'winner' of the burning fields contest.......I just know that we are the loosers.

I use this map , it shows the international borders.

[chiang mai]

Looking at the firemap this morning, there can be no one who thinks that imported smoke is not a problem to some degree currently.

[MESmith]

What smoke? Pretty clear apart from the humidity induced haze. But we had to close all windows yesterday evening, thanks to the local farmers

[TheScribe]

OECD - Urban air pollution is set to become the top environmental cause of mortality worldwide by 2050, ahead of dirty water and lack of sanitation. The number of premature deaths from exposure to particulate air pollutants leading to respiratory failure could double from current levels to 3.6 million every year globally.

See http://www.oecd.org/...1_1_1_1,00.html

[el jefe]

Looking at the firemap this morning, there can be no one who thinks that imported smoke is not a problem to some degree currently.

unfortunately, the firemap doesn't "prove" anything. Today's fires in Myanmar correlate to relatively clean air in CM. Either the burning in Myanmar has little effect on our air quality or the rain of Wednesday evening has a greater effect.

I've been in CM for 8 years. This is the second time I have not been able to leave in March. The other year was 2007. I've been here for the 2 worst years and been away for all the others. I think that's proof I cause the pollution.

[jaideeguy]

My general observations are that [judging by the map/pic] the worst burners are northern Thailand and central and eastern Burma and the fires seem to go back and forth over the borders and with no borders on the map/pic, it's hard to tell who is the 'winner' of the burning fields contest.......I just know that we are the loosers.

I use this map , it shows the international borders.

Interesting map MESmith......more detail and global view, but it appears that we seem to be the 'world burning champs' in concentration of fires in populated areas with Africa a close 2nd. What's our prize for that honor????

thanks for the link......

[MESmith]

What's our prize for that honor????

Ask me in 20 yrs, if I'm still alive.....

[Mapguy]

You think you are contributing to the air pollution problem ??!! Better watch your diet !!

Seasonal air pollution is a regional problem in SE Asia. No doubt about it, but don't lay everything on the Burmese or the Laotians. It is a problem anywhere land clearing and/or traditional farming practices by burning are practiced.

The impact of burning in Burma or Laos on the air in Thailand would depend chiefly upon the size of the particulate matter (e.g., larger particles settle to earth much more quickly than smaller particles), weather (i.e., temperature, moisture, wind velocity and direction, barometric pressure), and topography (e.g., mountains). Locally or nationally, the same sorts of factors apply. What would you guess about the relative impact on pollution in Chiang Mai of burning in Burma, from the Central Thai rice paddies, from nearby rice paddies and forest, and from your next-door neighbor?

In the jungle with very low population density there is still little negative impact with traditional slash and burn agriculture. The situation, however, in Thailand (and SE Asia generally) has been rapidly changing. Historically, agricultural practices have changed from place to place around the globe part of the still-progressing "agricultural revolution." Forest and land clearing and preparing fields for the next harvest --- sometimes even hunting methods! --- by burning are phenomena that have occurred worldwide in tropical, semitropical and temperate climates. Economic progress (accompanied by education) has generally stopped such practices and regulation and enforcement have taken root.

Anyway, the seasonal burning season will come to an end in about a month, and so, too, will this very lengthy thread. Well, I suppose that's okay if it were all only idle speculation, occasional conspiracy thinking and general whinging. But there has been some useful information posted. What really seems to be almost totally missing in the few years I have followed the topic are many constructive suggestions within our purview on helping ameliorate the situation. Don't be possessed by apathy, be too cynical or just leave town (if you have the wherewithal)! What's the slogan? "Think globally, act locally!"

[mcgriffith]

Well here we go again. 3 fires on the mountain, the left most one in the photo throwing up a very large column of smoke.

Unfortunately, my camera doesn't have a polarizing filter thus the photo doesn't capture the fire smoke clearly through the haze.

But I can see it very clearly with my sunglasses on.

So in spite of all the grandiose pronouncements by gov't officials that "mission accomplished", we are right back to Square One.

[connda]

My general observations are that [judging by the map/pic] the worst burners are northern Thailand and central and eastern Burma and the fires seem to go back and forth over the borders and with no borders on the map/pic, it's hard to tell who is the 'winner' of the burning fields contest.......I just know that we are the loosers.

I use this map , it shows the international borders.

Man! It looks like that locals have set the entire SE Asia on fire. No wonder the air quality sucks.

Burma seems to be working overtime to burn up their entire country. Holy Smokes!!!

Edited March 17, 2012 by connda

[Mapguy]

You think you are contributing to the air pollution problem ??!! Better watch your diet !!

Seasonal air pollution is a regional problem in SE Asia. No doubt about it, but don't lay everything on the Burmese or the Laotians. It is a problem anywhere land clearing and/or traditional farming practices by burning are practiced.

The impact of burning in Burma or Laos on the air in Thailand would depend chiefly upon the size of the particulate matter (e.g., larger particles settle to earth much more quickly than smaller particles), weather (i.e., temperature, moisture, wind velocity and direction, barometric pressure), and topography (e.g., mountains). Locally or nationally, the same sorts of factors apply. What would you guess about the relative impact on pollution in Chiang Mai of burning in Burma, from the Central Thai rice paddies, from nearby rice paddies and forest, and from your next-door neighbor?

In the jungle with very low population density there is still little negative impact with traditional slash and burn agriculture. The situation, however, in Thailand (and SE Asia generally) has been rapidly changing. Historically, agricultural practices have changed from place to place around the globe part of the still-progressing "agricultural revolution." Forest and land clearing and preparing fields for the next harvest --- sometimes even hunting methods! --- by burning are phenomena that have occurred worldwide in tropical, semitropical and temperate climates. Economic progress (accompanied by education) has generally stopped such practices and regulation and enforcement have taken root.

Anyway, the seasonal burning season will come to an end in about a month, and so, too, will this very lengthy thread. Well, I suppose that's okay if it were all only idle speculation, occasional conspiracy thinking and general whinging. But there has been some useful information posted. What really seems to be almost totally missing in the few years I have followed the topic are many constructive suggestions within our purview on helping ameliorate the situation. Don't be possessed by apathy, be too cynical or just leave town (if you have the wherewithal)! What's the slogan? "Think globally, act locally!"

Here is something YOU can do: www.breathecampaign.net

[nikster]

Well here we go again. 3 fires on the mountain, the left most one in the photo throwing up a very large column of smoke.

Unfortunately, my camera doesn't have a polarizing filter thus the photo doesn't capture the fire smoke clearly through the haze.

But I can see it very clearly with my sunglasses on.

So in spite of all the grandiose pronouncements by gov't officials that "mission accomplished", we are right back to Square One.

Well for this poster here, it's prediction accomplished

Look at the end of that graph: 180!

Edited March 17, 2012 by nikster

[chiang mai]

I don't want to beat the "imported smoke" drum too loudly but, the firemap doesn't show very much burning inside northern Thailand. Two days ago when the volume of external fires was substantial I was told they didn't corelate to the low pollution numbers in this region, they do now!

[MESmith]

I don't want to beat the "imported smoke" drum too loudly but, the firemap doesn't show very much burning inside northern Thailand. Two days ago when the volume of external fires was substantial I was told they didn't corelate to the low pollution numbers in this region, they do now!

I thought it was pretty clear today. Could see Doi suthep & the east side of the valley.

[TheScribe]

Well today its filthy in CM. AQMTHAI town hall reading is red, and I'm suffering. This time its surely caused locally, as Lamphun and Chiang Rai etc. are pretty clean. Makes me want to go up the mountain and shoot all those foggers dead. Better not though, hah.

Edited March 17, 2012 by TheScribe

[T_Dog]

I don't want to beat the "imported smoke" drum too loudly but, the firemap doesn't show very much burning inside northern Thailand. Two days ago when the volume of external fires was substantial I was told they didn't corelate to the low pollution numbers in this region, they do now!

I believe it is mostly a local problem. We had our worst night yet up here in Mae Taeng, as many fires were set in the hills toward Pai. The night down slope breeze brought them right into the valleys and both my wife and I are coughing this morning. Visibility down to 1 km again. Remember that most of these fires only last 2-3 hours so they might not be captured on the fire maps. The larger fires are however. As I have said before, setting fires is a way of life in the rural areas of Northern Thailand.

[chiang mai]

I don't want to beat the "imported smoke" drum too loudly but, the firemap doesn't show very much burning inside northern Thailand. Two days ago when the volume of external fires was substantial I was told they didn't corelate to the low pollution numbers in this region, they do now!

I thought it was pretty clear today. Could see Doi suthep & the east side of the valley.

Not according to reports from Nikster and Mcgriffith in post 651 yesterday evening, whilst there are the odd fires around that can be seen they surely don't account for a reading of 180. Once again, the fire map show the vast majority of activity as being over the border in Myanmar.

[TheScribe]

.. setting fires is a way of life in the rural areas of Northern Thailand.

As was pillage and rape to the Vikings, but that didn't mean the rest of the populace found it tolerable and acceptable.

[chooka]

.. setting fires is a way of life in the rural areas of Northern Thailand.

As was pillage and rape to the Vikings, but that didn't mean the rest of the populace found it tolerable and acceptable.

Yes agree and as is the jet ski scams, corruption, the stealing of young children and amputating limbs to make them better beggers for thier owners all a way of life. oh well nothing to see here move along. Simply stating that it is a way of life is turning a blind eye to the problem and hoping it will just go away, oh that also is a way of life in Thailand. I guess T Dog has settled nicely into the Thai way of life.

Edited March 18, 2012 by chooka

[chiang mai]

Interesting that the fire map doesn't show any results when the past twenty four hours is selected, can see lots of old data from last week but nothing current, anyone?

[trainman34014]

A trip of interest. Went to Maesai on Friday and it was quite a clear day, even up there. However, woke up Saturday morning and there had obviously been fires during the night over the border as a heavy and dirty air scene greeted us. On the way back Saturday afternoon by the usual main road route I noted three area's where brush fires had been lit to clear undergrowth, and they were all producing a lot of smoke, particularly one large area on a Mountainside. Also noted the usual small fires in backyards that people start to light early evening. Unless the Authorities start dealing out really tough penalties to these people I can't believe it will ever change. Seems to me that Farmers who live way out in the sticks are most probably completely unaware of any problems caused by burning. The only thing that concerns them is doing what they have always done,and, in their minds, doing what needs to be done.