Smoke, Smog, Dust 2012 Chiang Mai

[MESmith]

I don't want to beat the "imported smoke" drum too loudly but, the firemap doesn't show very much burning inside northern Thailand. Two days ago when the volume of external fires was substantial I was told they didn't corelate to the low pollution numbers in this region, they do now!

I thought it was pretty clear today. Could see Doi suthep & the east side of the valley.

Not according to reports from Nikster and Mcgriffith in post 651 yesterday evening, whilst there are the odd fires around that can be seen they surely don't account for a reading of 180. Once again, the fire map show the vast majority of activity as being over the border in Myanmar.

Well it was clear yesterday all day over on the east side of the valley. And I could see Doi Suthep. Afternoon spent watering the garden, no mask, no sore eyes. Nice breeze. Today it was hazy early in the morning, but eastern hills still visible. We went cycling around the lakes east of San Kamphaeng. By the time we'd finished, around 9 am, visibility was decreasing rapidly.

I thought Nikster was on the beach? McGriffith's report was of smoke off Doi Suthep.

T-Dog is reporting many fires just to the northwest.

Sounds local to me. Either way, we need some more wind & rain.

[chiang mai]

Once again it's the proprtion of fires seen locally versus the intensity of the pollution/smoke, right now in Muang it's about as bad as it gets, that's just three hours after you went for your bike ride in near perfect conditions, can you explain all of that using local burning as the only factor.

[Puwa]

wife saw news reports of fires out of control on suthep-pui since yesterday afternoon, firefighting underway

[Thailand]

Sounds local to me. Either way, we need some more wind & rain.

Non forecast and it's getting worse by the hour so guess we are in for many more days of this.

[MESmith]

Once again it's the proprtion of fires seen locally versus the intensity of the pollution/smoke, right now in Muang it's about as bad as it gets, that's just three hours after you went for your bike ride in near perfect conditions, can you explain all of that using local burning as the only factor.

For a start I didn't say "near perfect conditions" this morning. I said it was hazy, but the hills on the eastern side of the valley were still visible.

The fact that CM is located in a valley, &, according to local reports, the hills around us are on fire, is enough to convince me that local burning is a factor, probably the main factor.

[el jefe]

yesterday afternoon at about 2:00pm, the smoke coming from what looked like the hills above Huay Tung Tao was about as bad as I've ever seen it in the middle of the afternoon. I saw plenty of fresh burning today on the road from Samoeng to Hang Dong. there's no way to tell if these fires are the biggest contributing factor to the horrible air here now, but it can't help.

With only hot and dry weather predicted for at least the next week, it's probably only going to get worse before it gets better.

At least now we can probably trust the PCD readings of 185.

[TheScribe]

The govt. dept. is called "Pollution Control Department" and while they may be doing OK on monitoring, they seem to be doing absolutely nothing to justify having the word "Control" in their title.

We know what would solve the problem. Here is my suggestion for a four-part solution:-

1) Forcibly emptying many of the hill-tribe villages and re-settling the inhabitants to places where they can't do all this damage to Thailand's shared natural resources. (Contentious and difficult, I know.)

2) Establishing free domestic rubbish collection for ALL inhabitants of Thailand and burning it in new incinerators built around the country.

3) Effective policing of the rice growers and other lowland farmers.

4) Effective policing of traffic and prosecution of pollution offenders.

Any chance of the Pollution CONTROL Department progressing these solution? Really? You mean, like, umm, in this lifetime? Really?

Edited March 18, 2012 by TheScribe

[orang37]

... snip ... my suggestion for a four-part solution:-

1) Forcibly emptying the hill-tribe villages and re-settling the inhabitants to places where they can't do all this damage to Thailand's shared natural resources.

Khun Scribe, I think you can make suggestion #1 a bit more powerful by simply using one word: "genocide."

Any chance of the Pollution CONTROL Department progressing these solution? Really? You mean, like, umm, in this lifetime? Really?

Here: may I suggest a slight change: from "progressing" to "finessing:" used in its sense of meaning "slyly attempt to avoid blame or censure when dealing with (a situation or action)." That leaves the way open for a possible "yes." And, what do you think about using "in these lifetimes," since, in an ever-recycling-ever-was, all possibilities are repeated endlessly ?

~o:37;

[harrry]

... snip ... my suggestion for a four-part solution:-

1) Forcibly emptying the hill-tribe villages and re-settling the inhabitants to places where they can't do all this damage to Thailand's shared natural resources.

Khun Scribe, I think you can make suggestion #1 a bit more powerful by simply using one word: "genocide."

Any chance of the Pollution CONTROL Department progressing these solution? Really? You mean, like, umm, in this lifetime? Really?

Here: may I suggest a slight change: from "progressing" to "finessing:" used in its sense of meaning "slyly attempt to avoid blame or censure when dealing with (a situation or action)." That leaves the way open for a possible "yes." And, what do you think about using "in these lifetimes," since, in an ever-recycling-ever-was, all possibilities are repeated endlessly ?

~o:37;

yes the burning is genocide....but of whom?

[TheScribe]

... snip ... my suggestion for a four-part solution:-

1) Forcibly emptying the hill-tribe villages and re-settling the inhabitants to places where they can't do all this damage to Thailand's shared natural resources.

Khun Scribe, I think you can make suggestion #1 a bit more powerful by simply using one word: "genocide."

Any chance of the Pollution CONTROL Department progressing these solution? Really? You mean, like, umm, in this lifetime? Really?

Here: may I suggest a slight change: from "progressing" to "finessing:" used in its sense of meaning "slyly attempt to avoid blame or censure when dealing with (a situation or action)." That leaves the way open for a possible "yes." And, what do you think about using "in these lifetimes," since, in an ever-recycling-ever-was, all possibilities are repeated endlessly ?

~o:37;

No I am not suggesting genocide.

Over the last couple of days it seems that some people have gone into the hills of Doi Sutep/Pui at night and set fire to the now tinder-box dry forests. This is almost certainly the work of the hill-tribe or itinerant people living there. We know why they do this, and we know that it's a crime, and we know that it causes many thousands of people discomfort, sickness and premature death. So its not a small thing.

Preventing all that is what the PCD is supposed to be doing. Just telling the hill folks to not burn does absolutely nothing. Meantime, babies and old folks down in the valleys are still sickening and dying. The hill folks are not going to change their ways until they have to. Getting them to change their ways will need a lot of carrot and stick, but currently I don't see anything being done by the PCD or any other govt. dept. either. But I could be wrong about that.

Edited March 18, 2012 by TheScribe

[orang37]

yes the burning is genocide....but of whom?

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Harry,

I felt that "whom" was best left to the imagination of the reader, since I am, personally, as you know, as a single-human-consciousness, in a single human body: already extinct.

But, I admit that is logically indefensible, from a western, Aristotelian-syllogistic point-of-view: the reality of transubstantiation via singularity into a fusion with an Orangutan, where two souls, and psyches, cohabitate, in one aging human body, can only be expressed via paradox in "ordinary" language.

But, we do breathe, and the body doth choke. On landing today back home, here, returning from Singapore, I felt suddenly I was in a city wrapped in its death-shroud. But, I could not cry in mourning, only cough. Yet, in Singapore, I continually felt choked by too many people in too much of a hurry.

~o:37;

Edited March 18, 2012 by orang37

[chiangmaibruce]

Sorry if there has already been a link to this petition ... if so here is another one:

http://www.breathecampaign.net/sign-our-petition/

[naboo]

This morning, the smoke hasn't quite hidden the trees I couldn't see 10 days ago (or so). So not quite the worst of the year, but desperately disappointing given last week's clearer air.

[chiang mai]

Anyone have any numbers for today? Also, can anyone get any data from FIRMS, I can't!

[hudriwudri]

http://aqmthai.com/ 09:00 ..... 207

[Tywais]

[smiling mantis]

205.68

I'm getting scared. Late last night started getting this feeling in my upper chest, like it's tightening or something. Still with me now.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

205.68

I'm getting scared. Late last night started getting this feeling in my upper chest, like it's tightening or something. Still with me now.

* Don't get scared.

* Decide if you want to go see a doctor

* If not, stay indoors.

* Decide if you want to visit Pattaya or Hua Hin.

It's high, but not has high as it has been on occasion in the past. (Close, though)

Edited March 19, 2012 by WinnieTheKhwai

[THAIPHUKET]

Staying inside , aircon running...............is that not the same like pumping PM 10 directly into your lungs?

It M10 not much too small to be filtered by any standard filter?

[chiang mai]

Anecdotal evidence: the parking lot at the airport is chocka, not an empty space to be seen and folks parking along the exit road, where did they all go and why, are people escaping the fog?

Also, CM's finest out in force today, several road blocks set up to catch "law breaking" motorists, shame such manpower can't be more useful and more sensibly deployed such as catching/stopping burners for example.

Edited March 19, 2012 by chiang mai

[MESmith]

Also, CM's finest out in force today, several road blocks set up to catch "law breaking" motorists, shame such manpower can't be more useful and more sensibly deployed such as catching/stopping burners for example.

You been "inhaling"?

Edited March 19, 2012 by MESmith

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Staying inside , aircon running...............is that not the same like pumping PM 10 directly into your lungs?

It M10 not much too small to be filtered by any standard filter?

It's better if the airconditioner has a good filter (like the 3M stuff) or when you run an air purifyer. However just about any international website about PM-10 pollution includes a table with various ranges and associated action (or in-action). The levels for the various recommendations vary, but all of them include advice "for affected groups" (like children, the elderly, etc) for example to 'refrain for exercise or straneous activity', and for the higher values to 'remain indoors'.

So for someone who is affected (and not on his way to leave to seek medical attention or to get out of the region), staying indoors seems good advice. (If possible with some way to filter or improve the air).

Possibly increasing the humidity of the air will also be good. (Misting or through evaporation)

( Also, air conditioners don't pump air into your lungs.

Edited March 19, 2012 by WinnieTheKhwai

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Anecdotal evidence: the parking lot at the airport is chocka, not an empty space to be seen and folks parking along the exit road, where did they all go and why, are people escaping the fog?

Possibly. Though it's also the big school holiday right now. And I wonder how much filtering a mall airconditioning system does, probably not a lot.

[jaideeguy]

Anyone have any numbers for today? Also, can anyone get any data from FIRMS, I can't!

I can't get any info from them either.....just a blank map. Too bad, as it gives a better picture than the posted map by showing borders and has confirmed that most of the fires are in Mayanmar and if you go global, there is a lot in Africa.

The FIRMS map shows a big blank [no fires] in the middle of Mayanmar near the Irriwadi [sp?] river basin and there are no fires there. wonder why??

[T_Dog]

Anecdotal evidence: the parking lot at the airport is chocka, not an empty space to be seen and folks parking along the exit road, where did they all go and why, are people escaping the fog?

Also, CM's finest out in force today, several road blocks set up to catch "law breaking" motorists, shame such manpower can't be more useful and more sensibly deployed such as catching/stopping burners for example.

Great idea! Some more anecdotal evidence.... I caught a head cold and went to the local pharmacy only to stand in line. Everyone was complaining about the smoke and most were buying stuff to deal with it. I have never seen more than two people in this particular pharmacy so seeing a line was quite surprising.

[el jefe]

How about this for a pollution solution?- Spray water to block haze from Burma.

if you don't think that will work then the Thai govt doesn't have a clue. Read the last 2 paragraphs of this article from today's Nation:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/541811-smog-returns-in-thailands-upper-north/

at least it's better than blaming it on Korean BBQ's like they tried to do in 2007.

[heybruce]

I'm sure this is a naive question, but does this kind of pollution level change significantly with small changes in altitude? In other words, are we better off, worse off, or the same on the tenth floor of a building as opposed to the first floor?

[czGLoRy]

I googled it and can't find much info, what are the "205.68" numbers? I assume its measuring air pollution or air quality and higher is worse, what is bad? How to track this? How does this compare to say Los Angeles?

[smiling mantis]

I googled it and can't find much info, what are the "205.68" numbers? I assume its measuring air pollution or air quality and higher is worse, what is bad? How to track this? How does this compare to say Los Angeles?

It's the PM-10 number for Chiang Mai listed as the 24-hour moving average on this site: http://aqmthai.com/

I got the link from some earlier posting in this thread, and I just assumed this was the official source assumed in this thread for these numbers. Sorry.

As I understand it, it describes the quantity of particulate matter with a size of 10 micrometers or less per cubic meter. I think the quantity given is in micrograms but am not sure. The emphasis on particulate matter of this size is because it is thought that this is the stuff responsible for most of the adverse health effects.

As I write this the number is 188.73 which is totally useless unless you compare it to other numbers listed for Chiang Mai at different times of the year or other locations entirely. But you just have to look out the window or wonder why your eyes are sore or why your chest hurts to know, it's bad.

Edited March 19, 2012 by smiling mantis

[chiang mai]

I googled it and can't find much info, what are the "205.68" numbers? I assume its measuring air pollution or air quality and higher is worse, what is bad? How to track this? How does this compare to say Los Angeles?

It's the PM-10 number for Chiang Mai listed as the 24-hour moving average on this site: http://aqmthai.com/

I got the link from some earlier posting in this thread, and I just assumed this was the official source assumed in this thread for these numbers. Sorry.

As I understand it, it describes the quantity of particulate matter with a size of 10 micrometers or less per cubic meter. I think the quantity given is in micrograms but am not sure. The emphasis on particulate matter of this size is because it is thought that this is the stuff responsible for most of the adverse health effects.

As I write this the number is 188.73 which is totally useless unless you compare it to other numbers listed for Chiang Mai at different times of the year or other locations entirely. But you just have to look out the window or wonder why your eyes are sore or why your chest hurts to know, it's bad.

Think of 120 as the maximum safe ceiling and 40(ish) as a the norm.