Foreigner Assaulted At Bangkok BTS Station By Security Guard - Police Launch Investigation

[Soutpeel]

All you are doing is jumping to wild conclusions here.

What on TV ???....Never, we have already had the conspriacy theorist commenting on the video......lets have some wild conclusionists as well

Edited March 22, 2012 by Soutpeel

[Nisa]

I hope the security guy still has his job. I mean, if the clip showed the guard let the foreigner in with baloons the guard would probably be fired. Imagine going home to your family telling your wife that you were fired because of a bullying foreigner with baloons.

If the securetiy guy was in fact abussive I dont know about toher coontries but in sweden it is somewhat accepted and expected that workers are verbally abused now and then. I guess it does not work as well in Thailand.

Sadly in Thailand a guard could be fired for hitting a guy back that hit him first. We will have to wait for more to come out regarding what happened before the video but regardless of what happened before the video, this guy needs to be charged with crimes he committed on video. It is a shame the level of respect Thais are expected to show because all force necessary should have been used to stop this guy from entering the ticketed area and especially heading up the stairs to the trains. I want to feel somewhat safe riding the MRT and to know that anyone can simply bully there way past security doesn't make me feel safe. I would feel awful for this little girl to see what I believe is her dad clubbed into submission but that is exactly what should have happened as long as he refused to follow orders by security and/or exit the MRT.

What crimes did he commit on video? Being angry after a whack on the head? Does you you speaky comprendy Eeengleesh?

You lost the plot on this one, no pal of mine!

-mel.

For starters, assault or battery. I would have to know more Thai law but laws that deal with disturbing the peace, trespassing, attempted assault would be a start. But there may be more serious laws that deal with striking a public security employee as there should be.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Nisa

[templedog]

One thing I've always noticed living here for 10 years is that Thai's are very quick to judge and attack farangs that get into heated exchanges with other Thais. Often ganging up on the farang.

I've witnessed it many times and been the victim of it myself. When fights break out between 1 farang and 1 Thai, immediately there are 5-15 other Thais that come out of nowhere to join in on the beating.

Thai's are like angry dogs when fights break out. They don't care who started it or what it's about, they just want to get a punch or kick in and then run away - bunch of <deleted>' cowards they are!

I second that shit! About a year ago, I was clearly overcharged by a motorcy taxi and called him out on it in front of the Phayathai BTS, I told him he was cheating me, then he slammed his helmet into my face, then in pure reflex, I slapped him back.....then 15 Thais beat the living shit out of me.....all came out from nowhere! I called the police......and at the station the cop taking the report laughed at me and said...."You fight for 40 baht?" If Thais don't want the foreign money, then don't lure us here. And don't act so aggressive and jealous because we have it, or my case....think we have it. I am a Gov't school teacher here for 6 years and I donate much time teaching for free. I pay most Thais' taxes! Again......this is not to mean all Thais are like this BTS security guard,......this shit happens in NYC all the time! But I cannot stomach the posts here that say..."Hey Don't blame the Thais!" It take two, and sometimes only one of the party is the true protagonist. There is not enough evidence here to pass judgment....therefore I won't. But, it is a FACT that some Thais are clearly abusive with a bit of petty power (BTS whistle blower). Balloons for Christ's sake. This is the future brother, it is murder. L. Cohen

[Alfahane]

Why are they making such a fuss about some fricking balloons??? I've had my mountain bike a million times on that sky train and it takes up a lot more space than some <deleted> balloons! That the guy got clubbed was clearly his own fault, though, because he was the one who got physical first!!!

Because if you ignore one rule you should remember not bitch about other rules that are ignored. I bet this policy exists for a reason.

[Nisa]

Why are they making such a fuss about some fricking balloons??? I've had my mountain bike a million times on that sky train and it takes up a lot more space than some <deleted> balloons! That the guy got clubbed was clearly his own fault, though, because he was the one who got physical first!!!

I have never thought of ever planning to carry balloons but remembered very clearly you can't from the signs there I read the first time I took the skytrain years ago. It was so easy to remember this rule because I wondered why it was a rule but I can tell you they are also not allowed on planes and public transit systems in some other parts of the world. My guess is it is security reason since those balloons could be filled with many types of gas as well as their popping in crowded areas can cause panic and that is something you don't want a couple stories up in the air or while people are standing near train tracks ... but this is just my guess.

But it should be pointed out that the fuss was not about balloons. It was this guys inability to follow rules. It could just as easily been him smoking or some other thing that is against the rules. It appears this guy however did have a both a crazed attachments to the balloons and riding the BTS since it appears there were 3 or 4 passengers total in his group and chances are a taxi would have cost less to take and dropped him off at his door.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Nisa

[ChatterRat]

I feel that the man’s actions at around 1 min 55 seconds into the video would certainly not go down well if he was put to trial. The young girl (assumed daughter) gives the balloons she is holding to a 2nd BTS guard who has only just appeared on the scene. The man then decides to attempt to karate kick this guard in the chest in order to retrieve the balloons. This guard has clearly not made any physical threat to the man, and in fact the guard isn’t even looking when the man tries to kick him, the guard appears to be attempting to say something to the wife (assumed wife). Its seems to me the man at this point is determined to keep possession of his precious balloons no matter who he has to assault in order to achieve that aim. I am afraid regardless of what occurred before; his actions at this point are indefensible.

It is plainly obvious that he has received a serious blow to the side of the head previously and this does mitigate his later actions to some degree, but if he was aggressed against previously then surely he and his associates should now be looking to get justice by seeking out the management at the station or police. Instead he seems more determined only to get his precious balloons home at any cost and no matter who he has to hit.

From the evidence available only here in this video it would not take a particularly skilled lawyer to paint this man as an aggressive hothead. This is of cause an assumption, we can only hope a full release of any additional CCTV footage will provide clear evidence of who is in the wrong, whether it be the man, the guard who hit him, or both and hopefully justice will be forthcoming.

[Soutpeel]

I hope the security guy still has his job. I mean, if the clip showed the guard let the foreigner in with baloons the guard would probably be fired. Imagine going home to your family telling your wife that you were fired because of a bullying foreigner with baloons.

If the securetiy guy was in fact abussive I dont know about toher coontries but in sweden it is somewhat accepted and expected that workers are verbally abused now and then. I guess it does not work as well in Thailand.

Sadly in Thailand a guard could be fired for hitting a guy back that hit him first. We will have to wait for more to come out regarding what happened before the video but regardless of what happened before the video, this guy needs to be charged with crimes he committed on video. It is a shame the level of respect Thais are expected to show because all force necessary should have been used to stop this guy from entering the ticketed area and especially heading up the stairs to the trains. I want to feel somewhat safe riding the MRT and to know that anyone can simply bully there way past security doesn't make me feel safe. I would feel awful for this little girl to see what I believe is her dad clubbed into submission but that is exactly what should have happened as long as he refused to follow orders by security and/or exit the MRT.

What crimes did he commit on video? Being angry after a whack on the head? Does you you speaky comprendy Eeengleesh?

You lost the plot on this one, no pal of mine!

-mel.

For starters, assault or battery. I would have to know more Thai law but laws that deal with disturbing the peace, trespassing, attempted assault would be a start. But there may be more serious laws that deal with striking a public security employee as there should be.

Closely followed up by a charge of GBH for corporal Somchai, further he is not a "public" security employee, you are inferring he is some sort of goverment official...he is not....he is a lowly paid security guard working for a private company, with a metal detector and a whistle

I am intrigued by your proposed trespassing charge as please elaborate, this is not private property where this occurred.

I would go with attempted assault for the farang, but Corporal Somchai would be done for GBH, as he has inflicted actual injuries

[Soutpeel]

I feel that the man’s actions at around 1 min 55 seconds into the video would certainly not go down well if he was put to trial. The young girl (assumed daughter) gives the balloons she is holding to a 2nd BTS guard who has only just appeared on the scene. The man then decides to attempt to karate kick this guard in the chest in order to retrieve the balloons. This guard has clearly not made any physical threat to the man, and in fact the guard isn’t even looking when the man tries to kick him, the guard appears to be attempting to say something to the wife (assumed wife). Its seems to me the man at this point is determined to keep possession of his precious balloons no matter who he has to assault in order to achieve that aim. I am afraid regardless of what occurred before; his actions at this point are indefensible.

It is plainly obvious that he has received a serious blow to the side of the head previously and this does mitigate his later actions to some degree, but if he was aggressed against previously then surely he and his associates should now be looking to get justice by seeking out the management at the station or police. Instead he seems more determined only to get his precious balloons home at any cost and no matter who he has to hit.

From the evidence available only here in this video it would not take a particularly skilled lawyer to paint this man as an aggressive hothead. This is of cause an assumption, we can only hope a full release of any additional CCTV footage will provide clear evidence of who is in the wrong, whether it be the man, the guard who hit him, or both and hopefully justice will be forthcoming.

Bar stool lawyer in the your spare time are you ?.....your post sounds like Rumpole of the Bailey on a bad day...M.lud

Edited March 22, 2012 by Soutpeel

[Nisa]

One thing I've always noticed living here for 10 years is that Thai's are very quick to judge and attack farangs that get into heated exchanges with other Thais. Often ganging up on the farang.

I've witnessed it many times and been the victim of it myself. When fights break out between 1 farang and 1 Thai, immediately there are 5-15 other Thais that come out of nowhere to join in on the beating.

Thai's are like angry dogs when fights break out. They don't care who started it or what it's about, they just want to get a punch or kick in and then run away - bunch of <deleted>' cowards they are!

I second that shit! About a year ago, I was clearly overcharged by a motorcy taxi and called him out on it in front of the Phayathai BTS, I told him he was cheating me, then he slammed his helmet into my face, then in pure reflex, I slapped him back.....then 15 Thais beat the living shit out of me.....all came out from nowhere! I called the police......and at the station the cop taking the report laughed at me and said...."You fight for 40 baht?" If Thais don't want the foreign money, then don't lure us here. And don't act so aggressive and jealous because we have it, or my case....think we have it. I am a Gov't school teacher here for 6 years and I donate much time teaching for free. I pay most Thais' taxes! Again......this is not to mean all Thais are like this BTS security guard,......this shit happens in NYC all the time! But I cannot stomach the posts here that say..."Hey Don't blame the Thais!" It take two, and sometimes only one of the party is the true protagonist. There is not enough evidence here to pass judgment....therefore I won't. But, it is a FACT that some Thais are clearly abusive with a bit of petty power (BTS whistle blower). Balloons for Christ's sake. This is the future brother, it is murder. L. Cohen

I can't help but wonder if this crazed farang in the video shared some of your views and is what got him into trouble ... especially the part of believing this is about balloons and a likely indication that his views on balloons should trump the rules and security personal at the station. I personally believe when you act superior in a foreign country you are bound to get yourself into trouble. There are enough bad things that can happen all over the world without asking for trouble.

[newsweird]

it's clear visible, who assaulted who: Farang assaulted Thai !

Absolutely agree...

agree too

agree three

Yes after being busted in the face BY THAI before even passing the gate. But you guys obviously missed that. Would you be a little pissed if some snot nosed kid said "U go Bawwoon on train noooo" then smack you in the face? I bet you would

Both here were at fault not just one.

[metisdead]

A nonsense post has been removed. Nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to follow this topic, if this topic no longer interests you, simply move on.

[KeyserSoze01]

A nonsense post and a reply have been removed.

You missed 100 or so other posts of the same ilk.

[jbauer]

<deleted>. I have been reading this forum for 2 years and have never felt the need to register until now, but the stupidity on display by some people in this thread compelled me.

a) The video clearly starts after the guy was first hit- to those who said he looked drunk or aggressive in the video, please learn to read, or learn about why it is important to read all of the information available first.

The guy had just been hit in the face. I would be acting aggressively too.

c) I will leave aside the idea that balloons are intrinsically dangerous (I assume they were helium filled). I would agree maybe they take up space on the BTS. I don't remember seeing any signs on balloons being banned on the BTS, though- is it really common knowledge?

d) Knowing the general standard of English used by Thai people employed in situations where they might well have to speak English, I could assume the guard was incomprehensible. Was the farang able to understand him? Did the guard give time for processing of the information, or was it, to paraphrase a more sensible poster here, "YOU! FARANG! NO!" "What... sorry?" #WHACK#?

e) The guy may have responded with a "<deleted>?", or even called the guard a rude word or two. I don't believe this warrants being hit in the face, though... If you think it does, you have issues.

f) The foreigner may in fact have been aggressive to begin with, or when challenged. However, there is no evidence of this at the moment, so mabe some people here should reign in their assumptions.

g) If he was in fact aggressive, was it still necessary to hit him in the face? How about somewhere that might not be lethal? Heard of the "eggshell skull" rule? (Yeah, rules in Thailand don't apply... unless they do...)

It may be possible the guy was being an asshol_e- the information is not all there yet. However, there seems to be many here who are so desperate to suck on the rancid teat of Thailand that they will defend anything a Thai does against a foreigner. Bottom line, the guard was unprofessional by most standards outside of the third world, and acted in a dangerous and illegal manner by using force in such a way.

To the guy who said he would hire the guard at double his salary if he could- seeing as the facts aren't in yet, I'm glad you are prepared to employ a person who might actually have been illegally and dangerously abusive. If you hire on this basis, I have read about a guy based in Pattaya you might like to try out as well.

[ChatterRat]

I feel that the man’s actions at around 1 min 55 seconds into the video would certainly not go down well if he was put to trial. The young girl (assumed daughter) gives the balloons she is holding to a 2nd BTS guard who has only just appeared on the scene. The man then decides to attempt to karate kick this guard in the chest in order to retrieve the balloons. This guard has clearly not made any physical threat to the man, and in fact the guard isn’t even looking when the man tries to kick him, the guard appears to be attempting to say something to the wife (assumed wife). Its seems to me the man at this point is determined to keep possession of his precious balloons no matter who he has to assault in order to achieve that aim. I am afraid regardless of what occurred before; his actions at this point are indefensible.

It is plainly obvious that he has received a serious blow to the side of the head previously and this does mitigate his later actions to some degree, but if he was aggressed against previously then surely he and his associates should now be looking to get justice by seeking out the management at the station or police. Instead he seems more determined only to get his precious balloons home at any cost and no matter who he has to hit.

From the evidence available only here in this video it would not take a particularly skilled lawyer to paint this man as an aggressive hothead. This is of cause an assumption, we can only hope a full release of any additional CCTV footage will provide clear evidence of who is in the wrong, whether it be the man, the guard who hit him, or both and hopefully justice will be forthcoming.

Bar stool lawyer in the your spare time are you ?.....your post sounds like Rumpole of the Bailey on a bad day...M.lud

Merely attempting to tie evidence in with my words, rather than hot air. Objection over-ruled.

[KeyserSoze01]

If people start carrying hydrogen ballon into BTS/MRT, it could be made into a big bomb.

Remember Zeppelin?

Yes, and if pigs had wings they could fly.

So, how many hydrogen balloons would it take to "blow up" a train?

A - 1,000

B - 2,000

C -10,000

D - Would never happen

[Nisa]

Sadly in Thailand a guard could be fired for hitting a guy back that hit him first. We will have to wait for more to come out regarding what happened before the video but regardless of what happened before the video, this guy needs to be charged with crimes he committed on video. It is a shame the level of respect Thais are expected to show because all force necessary should have been used to stop this guy from entering the ticketed area and especially heading up the stairs to the trains. I want to feel somewhat safe riding the MRT and to know that anyone can simply bully there way past security doesn't make me feel safe. I would feel awful for this little girl to see what I believe is her dad clubbed into submission but that is exactly what should have happened as long as he refused to follow orders by security and/or exit the MRT.

What crimes did he commit on video? Being angry after a whack on the head? Does you you speaky comprendy Eeengleesh?

You lost the plot on this one, no pal of mine!

-mel.

For starters, assault or battery. I would have to know more Thai law but laws that deal with disturbing the peace, trespassing, attempted assault would be a start. But there may be more serious laws that deal with striking a public security employee as there should be.

I am intrigued by your proposed trespassing charge as please elaborate, this is not private property where this occurred.

I would go with attempted assault for the farang, but Corporal Somchai would be done for GBH, as he has inflicted actual injuries

Again, I am not familiar enough with Thai laws but would guess they have similar laws and generally speaking you are trespassing if told to leave or not to enter by somebody with authority to do so regardless if you are on government property, the mall or private property. Generally being told is required for trespassing but being told also includes a sign (why people post No Trespassing Signs) regardless if you saw the sign or not. But it would seem very obvious this guy knew he could not enter with the balloons be it by sign or by sign and the fact he had many security telling him this and even by his claims one security officer hitting him in the head over this. I would guess there is also a law that would be more serious charge too when you trespass by force,threat and/or intimidation as this man did.

[metisdead]

Some posts that are getting too personal as to be on the verge of personal attacks have been removed. Maybe it's time for some to back away from the keyboard and give it a rest?

[HeavyDrinker]

Nisa wrote:

I am not going on 1/2 story, I am going on a fairly lenghthy video that shows an out of control foreigner

A video which shows half the story.....

[arthurwait]

Just wait until Disneyland opens.

They're going to need anti-aircraft guns to deal with Winnie the Pooh and his balloons.

[Soutpeel]

Again, I am not familiar enough with Thai laws but would guess they have similar laws and generally speaking you are trespassing if told to leave or not to enter by somebody with authority to do so regardless if you are on government property, the mall or private property. Generally being told is required for trespassing but being told also includes a sign (why people post No Trespassing Signs) regardless if you saw the sign or not. But it would seem very obvious this guy knew he could not enter with the balloons be it by sign or by sign and the fact he had many security telling him this and even by his claims one security officer hitting him in the head over this. I would guess there is also a law that would be more serious charge too when you trespass by force,threat and/or intimidation as this man did.

so please direct me to any credible information, (assuming something" is not credible BTW) which proves Corporal Somchai requested the indiviudual concerned to vacate the premises and the individual refused.....thereby surpporting your proposed trespass charge

Mate...your making it up as you go along

I personally would have not problem seeing a charge of simple assault for the Farang and a charge of GBH for Corporal Somchai

[newsweird]

I was just thinking this morning how wonderful and peaceful the world would be if we could rid it of all these balloons of mass destruction.

Every adult in the world has some sense that he or she might be obliterated at any time by these balloons that we have created. As long as we rationalize balloon weapons as “necessary” in order to save American lives, then balloon weapons will never be gotten rid of.

The students I've been with these twenty years are looking for a world where it becomes a little easier to love and a lot harder to hate, where learning nonviolence means that we dedicate our hearts, minds, time, and money to a commitment that the force of love, the force of truth, the force of justice, and the force of organized resistance to corrupt power are seen as sane and the force of fists, guns, balloons, armies, and bombs insane.

I never liked balloons, I hate them. I agree with the many here who consider freezing all sorts of balloon systems a first step in a realistic disarmament policy. In less than a century we experienced great movements. The youth movement! The labor movement! The civil rights movement! The peace movement! The solidarity movement! The women's movement! The disability movement! The gay rights movement! The environmental movement! Movement! Transformation! and now The balloon disarmament movement! Is there any reason to believe we are done?

In the age when the atom has been split, the moon encircled, diseases conquered, is a balloon free world so difficult a matter that it must remain a distant dream? The single biggest threat that we face is a balloon or some balloon of mass destruction. What that means is that we have to be extraordinarily aggressive and vigilant in controlling balloon proliferation.

[thaiman]

It is plainly obvious that he has received a serious blow to the side of the head previously and this does mitigate his later actions to some degree, but if he was aggressed against previously then surely he and his associates should now be looking to get justice by seeking out the management at the station or police.

From the video, it looks like the guy has blood on his head before he enters through the ticket stalls. Was this due to the original blow?

The security guys working the bts are very mellow guys and would probably only act violently if provoked. I bet he was provoked and felt threatened by the bald headed farang.

[Nisa]

Time to get some actual work done and will follow Metisdead's advice before I get sucked into responding to some of these personal attacks . But I do suggest folks actually watch the video before they believe the headline or the first sentence of the article because the video does NOT show a foreigner being assaulted as the article claims. In fact it is a fairly lengthy video of an out of control foreigner attacking calm and reserved security officers and needing to be restrained by another farang.

Regardless if this guy was at fault or security, it certainly has nothing to do with Thai or any Foriegn society and it is simply about one incident of people who don't claim to represent their entire society by their actions during this incident. If what is usually the case in similar situations is true around the globe then there is likely going to be fault on both sides.

[Nisa]

Again, I am not familiar enough with Thai laws but would guess they have similar laws and generally speaking you are trespassing if told to leave or not to enter by somebody with authority to do so regardless if you are on government property, the mall or private property. Generally being told is required for trespassing but being told also includes a sign (why people post No Trespassing Signs) regardless if you saw the sign or not. But it would seem very obvious this guy knew he could not enter with the balloons be it by sign or by sign and the fact he had many security telling him this and even by his claims one security officer hitting him in the head over this. I would guess there is also a law that would be more serious charge too when you trespass by force,threat and/or intimidation as this man did.

so please direct me to any credible information, (assuming something" is not credible BTW) which proves Corporal Somchai requested the indiviudual concerned to vacate the premises and the individual refused.....thereby surpporting your proposed trespass charge

Mate...your making it up as you go along

I personally would have not problem seeing a charge of simple assault for the Farang and a charge of GBH for Corporal Somchai

Do you really not believe he wasn't aware, at some point, that he couldn't enter with Balloons prior to the video ending as he climbed the stair to the train? That my friend would be considered trespassing in many places. Same as if you enter a place not wearings shoes / shirt that has a sign posted on the door stating you must wear shirt and shoes to enter or are told of such a rule after you enter and you refuse to leave or put shirt and shoes on.

I also made no such claim that you are asking me to back up.

Goodnight - time to get some work done.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Nisa

[thaiman]

Bottom line, the guard was unprofessional by most standards outside of the third world, and acted in a dangerous and illegal manner by using force in such a way.

Unprofessional how? Thailand can't be compared with the first world, anyhow.

[Cheops]

<deleted>. I have been reading this forum for 2 years and have never felt the need to register until now, but the stupidity on display by some people in this thread compelled me.

a) The video clearly starts after the guy was first hit- to those who said he looked drunk or aggressive in the video, please learn to read, or learn about why it is important to read all of the information available first.

The guy had just been hit in the face. I would be acting aggressively too.

c) I will leave aside the idea that balloons are intrinsically dangerous (I assume they were helium filled). I would agree maybe they take up space on the BTS. I don't remember seeing any signs on balloons being banned on the BTS, though- is it really common knowledge?

d) Knowing the general standard of English used by Thai people employed in situations where they might well have to speak English, I could assume the guard was incomprehensible. Was the farang able to understand him? Did the guard give time for processing of the information, or was it, to paraphrase a more sensible poster here, "YOU! FARANG! NO!" "What... sorry?" #WHACK#?

e) The guy may have responded with a "<deleted>?", or even called the guard a rude word or two. I don't believe this warrants being hit in the face, though... If you think it does, you have issues.

f) The foreigner may in fact have been aggressive to begin with, or when challenged. However, there is no evidence of this at the moment, so mabe some people here should reign in their assumptions.

g) If he was in fact aggressive, was it still necessary to hit him in the face? How about somewhere that might not be lethal? Heard of the "eggshell skull" rule? (Yeah, rules in Thailand don't apply... unless they do...)

It may be possible the guy was being an asshol_e- the information is not all there yet. However, there seems to be many here who are so desperate to suck on the rancid teat of Thailand that they will defend anything a Thai does against a foreigner. Bottom line, the guard was unprofessional by most standards outside of the third world, and acted in a dangerous and illegal manner by using force in such a way.

To the guy who said he would hire the guard at double his salary if he could- seeing as the facts aren't in yet, I'm glad you are prepared to employ a person who might actually have been illegally and dangerously abusive. If you hire on this basis, I have read about a guy based in Pattaya you might like to try out as well.

Excellent first post jbauer!

[beerchang]

We need cctv. True I would be unhappy being whacked in the head but have to calm down and reason out why. No-one actually knows.

Anyway, thought this might cheer some of you up. Not just Thailand my friends! (and yes it's a different situation, just roll with it!)

[beerchang]

We need cctv. True I would be unhappy being whacked in the head but have to calm down and reason out why. No-one actually knows.

Anyway, thought this might cheer some of you up. Not just Thailand my friends! (and yes it's a different situation, just roll with it!)

HEY! Where's the pic I attached? Help me someone!

[sprq]

Hitting someone on the head with a baton shows poor training in most situations, let alone this one. If you are properly trained, you have many better methods of calming, disarming or otherwise preventing a person from doing something against your rules or against the law. But it's hardly surprising: neither the Thai police nor the Thai army, the supposed "professionals", are well trained in such matters. Just look at their behaviour in major civil disturbances or in the far south.

[beerchang]

OK. think I got it! (with na bit of luck!)