Liverpool Declining To Decline Thread?

[MrRed]

Liverpool's owners will demand answers from Kenny Dalglish when they conduct a major strategic review on how to take the club forward.

There is no suggestion Dalglish’s position is under immediate threat even though Liverpool have suffered six defeats in their last seven Barclays Premier League games - their worst run since 1953.

However, Fenway Sports Group will launch a thorough investigation into why the Carling Cup winners have underachieved so badly in the league.

Principal owner John W Henry said last August that it would be a ‘major disappointment’ if Liverpool failed to finish in the top four and, as a result, Dalglish will be asked to participate in this summer’s review and provide answers as to why his squad are so far from that goal.

Liverpool invested £113million on nine new players last year and - with the exceptions of Luis Suarez and Craig Bellamy - all have disappointed, most notably Andy Carroll, Jordan Henderson, Stewart Downing and Charlie Adam.

Liverpool could still win the FA Cup and the Carling Cup and, if that happens, their campaign would be judged a success.

But another campaign of erratic results in the Premier League would not be tolerated and FSG - who are unlikely to invest as much cash as they did last summer - will want to know how fortunes can be turned around.

Dalglish’s former team-mate Mark Lawrenson does not think the manager will be sacked and rules out the prospect of him quitting. He said: ‘I don’t think he’d walk away. I don’t believe he’ll be sacked. It’s a poor run. But he will be fine.’

Liverpool legend John Barnes does not believe Dalglish is immune from criticism - but expects him to ride through it.

Most supporters have given Anfield legend Dalglish wholehearted backing since he returned to the job for a second spell last year and have been reluctant to criticise the Scot.

But the current poor run - just eight points have been collected in 12 games in 2012 - is testing patience and Barnes is not surprised disquiet is growing.

Barnes, one of the star signings of Dalglish's first stint in charge, told BBC Sport: 'We're in the results business and Kenny is no different to anyone else.

'If Sir Alex Ferguson goes through a run of losing games, he's going to be in trouble.

'No matter who you are, it's a results-driven business. No-one is immune. There are people talking about it - we have seen it, we have heard it.

'It does happen, but you also have to be realistic in terms of the effect it will have on what you are trying to achieve.

'And the people in the know - how much are they going to support you? Kenny is well supported, so he won't take any notice of that.'

Amid the bad results, Liverpool have kept their season alive with their cup performances.

Barnes, 48, said: 'In the league they have not been consistent enough - and that is what doing well in the league is all about, being consistent week in, week out.

'Liverpool over the years have been a good cup side but it is disappointing in the league.'

The former England winger believes everyone needs to get behind Dalglish to propel the club out of their current turmoil.

He said: 'You have to know how to get the results and the people who are going to get the results are the team who shows more support for its manager and its players.'

Edited April 3, 2012 by MrRed

[MrRed]

As Dalglish leads Liverpool on worst run in 59 years, are the club better or worse off than under Hodgson?

Another weekend and another defeat for Liverpool means more pressure has piled on Kenny Dalglish.

The Scot's hopes of taking the Reds back to the Champions League this season have all but ended following a disastrous run of form that leaves the Reds in danger of finishing mid-table.

It's not too far from where predecessor Roy Hodgson left the club, but how do the two compare?

TRANSFERS

When Roy Hodgson took over in July 2010 he was charged with trying to get Liverpool back into the top four, but he was already on the back foot due to the uncertainty surrounding the future of owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett.

Funds were tight but for the £28million that Hodgson spent, the 64-year-old did make £32million through the sales of Javier Mascherano, Albert Riera and Yossi Benayoun.

The loss of the Argentine came just days before the end of the transfer window and Hodgson reacted quickly to bring in Raul Meireles – his biggest success.

Other major signings including Christian Poulsen and Paul Konchesky barely lasted a year while free transfer Joe Cole failed to live up to expectations.

Given a transfer kitty under new owner John Henry, Dalglish quickly lost faith in Hodgson's men when he replaced the sacked boss in January 2011.

Over the course of three transfer windows he has spent over £100million – most of that on a new strike force of Luis Suarez and Andy Carroll.

Fernando Torres was sold for £50million during this period as well as the Scot also added a new midfield including Stewart Downing, Charlie Adam and Jordan Henderson.

Verdict: Neither manager shines brightly here but Dalglish just edges it. Hodgson spent relatively little and made a profit with his dealings, but will be remembered for signing sub-standard players that fans quickly turned against.

Dalglish can be credited with signing Suarez, who has proved by far his smartest buy. But Carroll, Downing and Adam have disappointed just as much (if not more) than any Hodgson purchase, while rough diamond Henderson has also struggled.

LEAGUE FORM

After eight games under Hodgson, Liverpool were on their knees. Comprehensive defeats at Manchester City, Manchester United and Everton (as well as a home loss to newly promoted Blackpool) left them in the bottom three.

Three wins followed but by then fans had grown frustrated with a series of inconsistent results and the former Fulham manager was sacked following a 3-1 loss at Blackburn in January last year.

Liverpool were 12th in the table and 10 points off a European spot.

Dalglish took over and led a credible second half of the season that saw the Reds finish seventh – only missing out on Europe following a penultimate day defeat against league rivals Tottenham.

But the 61-year-old has failed to build on that this term. Before January, it was home draws that were holding the Reds back from challenging at the top, but 2012 has seen Liverpool endure their worst run of results in 59 years.

Two league wins in 12 means only rock bottom Wolves have a worst record in this calendar year. The Reds, who targeted to finish in the top four, are 16 points off that in eighth place.

Verdict: Liverpool never got going under Hodgson, whose team suffered nosebleeds when they hit the dizzy heights of ninth in the table. They looked destined for mid-table mediocrity until Dalglish took over.

But this term's post-Christmas collapsed has alarmed many connected with the club. Liverpool are in danger of finishing ninth which would be the club's worst league position since they won promotion back to the top flight in 1962.

Hodgson may have had Liverpool heading for a similar finish, but he never had the Reds in relegation form over a 10-game spell.

CUP FORM

The glimmer of hope but also another catalyst in the early departure of Hodgson. An unbeaten run in the Europa League group stages (albeit with just two wins from six) saw Liverpool top their group. But he was sacked before he could lead them into the last 32.

More damning was the third round Carling Cup exit at home to League Two strugglers Northampton on penalties.

Dalglish though has shined in the cups. His return to the hot-seat was a 1-0 FA Cup defeat at Manchester United, but he hasn't lost since Braga knocked Liverpool out of the Europa League in the round of 16 last season.

The Scot triumphed in the Carling Cup this term having defeated Manchester City and Chelsea. They didn't play one home game (aside from the two-legged semi-final) before defeating Cardiff at Wembley on penalties.

Home ties have favoured the Reds in the FA Cup this season, with four successive Anfield wins handing them a semi-final meeting with Everton back at Wembley.

Verdict: With a trophy in the cabinet, and potentially another on the way, Dalglish stands head and shoulders above Hodgson, who laboured at best in the chase for silverware.

FANS BACKING

With Liverpool having sacked Champions League winner Rafael Benitez, supporters expected a more blockbuster successor than Hodgson.

No one denied he had done a marvellous job at previous club Fulham by first keeping them up, then guiding them to the Europa League final. But many felt he was untested and out of his depth in England managing a massive club like Liverpool.

His lukewarm reception was about as good as it got. A poor start to the season alienated more fans and the discontent in the stands rubbed off on to players who looked devoid of confidence.

Hardly any Reds supporters were complaining about a lack of time once Hodgson was sacked after just six months and 20 league games.

In contrast, as a club legend as player and manager, Dalglish was given a hero’s welcome after taking over for a second spell.

The players responded to the good vibes reverberating around Anfield and it enabled them to finish last season strongly.

But the recent awful run has tested just how far the supporters will back Dalglish. While the same anger isn't being diverted at Dalglish as much as it was at Hodgson, the end request is starting to feel the same. 'Thanks Kenny, but no thanks.'

Verdict: As a fan favourite, Dalglish had a huge advantage over Hodgson in that he didn't need to produce instant results to get the supporters and players on his side.

Both made poor starts after taking over last term but the aura surrounding Dalglish on his appointment carried him through, while Hodgson just sank deeper into the quick sand.

Now the lustre from King Kenny's return has been replaced by terrible form, it proves that even the most idolised of figures can only descend so low before questions are asked by even their most ardent of followers.

OWNER'S BACKING

Plenty of influences on and off the pitch undermined Hodgson but none arguably more so than the change of ownership.

Just three months into his reign, John Henry completed a fiery takeover of Liverpool from Hicks and Gillett, and Hodgson from then on looked a sitting duck.

The former Inter Milan boss wasn't heavily backed financially, but he at least had time under the previous owners. Once Henry arrived, his position became more uncertain and it was little surprise he was sacked three months later without being given a penny to spend.

His successor Dalglish was instead given the funds to try and take Liverpool to the business end of the top flight again but he has so far only delivered the Carling Cup. League form has disappointed and big money signings have failed to make an impact.

Verdict: Dalglish has had the better deal if he hasn’t made the most of it. With the full confidence of the owners and plenty of money to spend, the Scot has enjoyed freedom to build his squad – with the help of Director of Football, Damien Comolli.

Hodgson had the dying days of one board and the fresh beginnings of another looking to gain a rapport with fans and build their own foundations at the club. He never stood a chance.

FINAL VERDICT

With a huge amount of backing from fans, owners and a chequebook, Kenny Dalglish has enjoyed a number of advantages that Roy Hodgson didn't have during his time at Liverpool.

Yet despite the millions spent and a less turbulent Anfield under new owners, Liverpool are only narrowly doing better in the league than they were under the former Switzerland manager.

The Reds have added plenty of new faces in the last year but the end result on the pitch is much the same.

Dalglish may have a cup to his name (with another possibly on the way) and secured European football back at Anfield for next season, but with the tools given to him he has arguably underachieved more than Hodgson.

The fact that Liverpool are now only in a slightly better league position to the one Hodgson left the club in represents that.

Edited April 3, 2012 by MrRed

[wellred]

Both Kenny and Commoli need to go IMO. What need is there for a director of football anyway? Also I think it's evident the moneyball strategy can't be applied to football.

[MrRed]

Both Kenny and Commoli need to go IMO. What need is there for a director of football anyway? Also I think it's evident the moneyball strategy can't be applied to football.

I agree but they will stick the season out and try to offload a few players,surely they will not give him much money in the summer to play with,even if he sells Carroll and Henderson it will not amount to much.

I can see it now "come back Rafa" how much money will this so called massive sponsorship deal be given directly for players? if any!

[smokie36]

Don't really see why he would sell those two. The problems are on the wings and in the heart of the midfield and defensive cover.

Adam is the usual one season wonder and Henderson aint there yet. Shelvey will be OK I think. Suarez is a quality player but he might well attract silly offers from Chelski this summer...

[wellred]

He made a mistake in putting Carroll and Suarez together thinking it would be like Toshak and Keegan but it's not. If anything we have transformed the Newcastle under him, paying over the odds for British players and negative tactics.

Shelvey has potential for the future and I'm glad he is back. Adam hasn't been able to get forward as much as he is having to track back, something he never had to do at Blackpool. My how we have missed Lucas this season aye?

Downing IMO was the biggest waste of money. I actually think with 2 proven wingers we could see more of Carroll but the service to him has generally been dosgshite.

Aside from that Carra is past is, Spearing isn't good enough and Pepe looks like he can't be arsed any more. There should be a stadium/Anfield re development announment soon so we will have to reign in the spending whilst that is under way. The time to get the signings right was this summer and we made a pigs ear of that big time. We essentially need to spend a shed load again to even think about top 4 next season.

As for Rafa id love to have him back. I think most people have realised what a mistake it was getting rid of him now. Anyway even if it wasn't him I want someone young with ideas, someone hungry for success and who can get us playin good football. I look at us this season and there is just no gameplan. We don't know how to break teams apart or attack effectively. Even at home we play so defensively sometimes it's shocking. I bet the owners are regretting not buying another striker in Jan. Then again Kenny probably would have wasted it all on Darren Bent or Defoe.

/rant over

[sumrit]

Does anybody here realistically think Kenny Dalglish, or anybody else for that matter, can turn Liverpool round enough to win the league in the next three years?

I remember back in the early nineties when (mainly) Liverpool fans, on the back of their clubs best twenty years in their history, crowed and laughed at the fact that Man U had not won the league for twenty five years.

Well Liverpool are on year twenty two now while Man U have gone on, not just to equal, but to surpass their league records during that time.

Of course anything is possible, but in order not to take that unwanted record off their fiercest rivals, not only have they got to become more consistent than Man U, they have got to somehow become better than Moneybags Citeh, Arsenal, the Abramovich billions, Spurs and (possibly) Everton as well. Is that really feasible over the next three years?

[carmine]

Don't really see why he would sell those two. The problems are on the wings and in the heart of the midfield and defensive cover.

Adam is the usual one season wonder and Henderson aint there yet. Shelvey will be OK I think. Suarez is a quality player but he might well attract silly offers from Chelski this summer...

They'll get their money back for suarez and a little more but to command a huge fee he;ll need to dramatically up his strike rate which in truth has been poor for a while now.

[beano2274]

You got rid of Roy for his record in the league, but am sure it is better than so far this year.

Daglish needs to go and also some of those players who are not pulling their weight. Those new signings except Suarez

have only scored 6 league goals if memory serves me right, which is not good enough.

[beano2274]

Suarez will go abroad.

Carroll should be sold, to anyone.

Adam should go out on loan to play more regularly, maybe Championship club or newly promoted club.

The rest should also be sold or go out on loan, a few good buys are what Liverpool need.

[StevieH]

needed another thread did it?

[smokie36]

Don't really see why he would sell those two. The problems are on the wings and in the heart of the midfield and defensive cover.

Adam is the usual one season wonder and Henderson aint there yet. Shelvey will be OK I think. Suarez is a quality player but he might well attract silly offers from Chelski this summer...

They'll get their money back for suarez and a little more but to command a huge fee he;ll need to dramatically up his strike rate which in truth has been poor for a while now.

You mean like Torres?

[MrRed]

A Liverpool girl enters an adult shop and asks for a vibrator.

The man says: "Choose one from our range on the wall." She says "I'll

take that red one."

The man replies: "That's a fire extinguisher."

[wellred]

Id love Dalglish to turn it around but i don't think he can, what's worse people are effectively saying this seasons write of is 'ok because it's Kenny'

I think those same fans are the ones who forgot his stints at Newcastle and Celtic. Guys we don't have the Kenny from the 80's we have Kenny from the 90's and people need to wake up.

When he was appointed I said to myself this shouldn't be a permanent position as he has been out of the game too long. Tactics wise you can see that easily. Also he has never been comfortable with the media so I was always slightly nervous in that respect too. Of course tho season has been a disaster in that respect too with the Suarez situation and Kennys general tone towards the media. And what do we have now? They are ripping him to shreds. It wasn't easy for them when he managed us last as he won the double in his first season but this season it's a free for all pop at him.

The thing I feared the most was fans turning on him once it became evident he couldn't build on last season and I think that is starting to happen now. I don't want his image tainted by this so think its best if stepped aside in the summer into a different role at the club. People need to stop drawing parallels with Shanks and our initial record under him. It's a new day and the rules have changed.

[sharecropper]

Both Kenny and Commoli need to go IMO. What need is there for a director of football anyway? Also I think it's evident the moneyball strategy can't be applied to football.

Don't tell that to your fellow-supporter Abrak. He venerates John Henry's financial philosophy, which I have always scoffed at as applied to English football..

Edited April 4, 2012 by sharecropper

[sharecropper]

needed another thread did it?

If ever a thread needed to be opened, it was this one - on such a matter of grave (footy) public importance and interest - even some of the stats above are shocking and need to be brought to a wider public - Liverpool's record over time, compared to Man United's, for example.

And wanting Rafa back? I sincererly hope Kenneth gets another season over there.

I read this article was in today's Daily Mail, which makes some interesting points:

Why time is running out for Liverpool and Kenny to recapture past glory:

http://www.dailymail...tin-Samuel.html

Edited April 4, 2012 by sharecropper

[MrRed]

I see your point as regards King Kenny sharecropper and understand that he is tactically out of his depth nowadays,but i can also see the return of Rafa as a serious alternative....if just to appease the kop!

And then when he drags them further down the league i would love to see the kop squealing at him as well.

It makes for great entertainment the demise of a once great club,for a United follower especially.

As a past player just said yesterday "Liverpool now are most definitely an embarrassment to the past history of the club" and the players who are picking up huge wages week in week out should be ashamed wearing the shirt.

[StevieH]

needed another thread did it?

If ever a thread needed to be opened, it was this one - on such a matter of grave (footy) public importance and interest - even some of the stats above are shocking and need to be brought to a wider public - Liverpool's record over time, compared to Man United's, for example.

And wanting Rafa back? I sincererly hope Kenneth gets another season over there.

I read this article was in today's Daily Mail, which makes some interesting points:

Why time is running out for Liverpool and Kenny to recapture past glory:

http://www.dailymail...tin-Samuel.html

amazing, an evertonian being obsessed with liverpool. bless 'em. if you know your history etc. well of course you'll know that you don't have much of one.

this didn't need another thread and could happily, or not, have gone in the existing liverpool fc thread.

[MrRed]

are you upset Stevie that you now have your own Liverpool in decline thread?

Just like your illustrious rivals 30 miles away

[sharecropper]

needed another thread did it?

If ever a thread needed to be opened, it was this one - on such a matter of grave (footy) public importance and interest - even some of the stats above are shocking and need to be brought to a wider public - Liverpool's record over time, compared to Man United's, for example.

And wanting Rafa back? I sincererly hope Kenneth gets another season over there.

I read this article was in today's Daily Mail, which makes some interesting points:

Why time is running out for Liverpool and Kenny to recapture past glory:

http://www.dailymail...tin-Samuel.html

amazing, an evertonian being obsessed with liverpool. bless 'em. if you know your history etc. well of course you'll know that you don't have much of one.

this didn't need another thread and could happily, or not, have gone in the existing liverpool fc thread.

No way - we're far more polite when we're in your house - and I'm sure you'll all want to spend time on there blaming everybody else but Rafa. I am even loving seeing the Sainted owners start to get knocked, as well as Prince Kenny - although I am genuinely his biggest fan seeing what he's done to you so far.

And I'm sure I speak for all Evertonians when I say we would be happy to give Reds fans counselling on watching an underperforming team, in a knackered stadium, with money trouble, year in year out, as your glory days slip far behind Manchester United - sorry - you - as that's where you're headed mate!

Edited April 4, 2012 by sharecropper

[nev]

They should start to worry they are closer to relegation than a top 4 spot.

So i think this thread is relevant as they are in decline and there blind loyalty to kkk is dragging them down, if this was any other manager at liverpool right now he would have been shown the door.

[MrRed]

League position

POS P W D L GD PTS 8 31 11 9 11 3 42

Current form

H A H A H A

LOST

LOST

WON

LOST

LOST

LOST

[wellred]

Benitez may or may not be the solution but he got us as close as any manager did in the last 10 years to winning the leauge. He also got us to 2 European Cup finals 1 of which we won and he done all that with 1 hand tied behind his back due to the owners at the time.

If it wasn't Rafa though perhaps AVB or Jurgen Klopp. But it doesn't matter who comes in, if we don't have a decent kitty in the summer we can look forward to more mid table mediocraty for years to come.

[sharecropper]

Benitez may or may not be the solution but he got us as close as any manager did in the last 10 years to winning the leauge. He also got us to 2 European Cup finals 1 of which we won and he done all that with 1 hand tied behind his back due to the owners at the time.

If it wasn't Rafa though perhaps AVB or Jurgen Klopp. But it doesn't matter who comes in, if we don't have a decent kitty in the summer we can look forward to more mid table mediocraty for years to come.

To spend big again (and just how much money are the Yanks prepared to put into LFC?) there is no way they would let KK or Comolli spend it I reckon, on the evidence of this season. So one of them would have to go (or both?).

If just 1, I reckon Comolli has the survival and corporate skills to make sure Kenny gets the bullet.

Bringing in a new manager might make the Yanks spend but I think there's at least another season or even two like this one ahead, whoever comes in.

And for Kenny to go, some behind the scenes deal will need to be done. He's as greedy (sorry - sensible) as any manager with a huge sacking fee in his contract. Why should he walk away from that without being pushed, unless some behind the scenes deal is done to pay him something and he resigns.

Or the Yanks give him another season, especially if you win the FA Cup, or even get into the final.

If he loses the fans, he's finished.

[carmine]

Benitez may or may not be the solution but he got us as close as any manager did in the last 10 years to winning the leauge. He also got us to 2 European Cup finals 1 of which we won and he done all that with 1 hand tied behind his back due to the owners at the time.

If it wasn't Rafa though perhaps AVB or Jurgen Klopp. But it doesn't matter who comes in, if we don't have a decent kitty in the summer we can look forward to more mid table mediocraty for years to come.

To spend big again (and just how much money are the Yanks prepared to put into LFC?) there is no way they would let KK or Comolli spend it I reckon, on the evidence of this season. So one of them would have to go (or both?).

If just 1, I reckon Comolli has the survival and corporate skills to make sure Kenny gets the bullet.

Bringing in a new manager might make the Yanks spend but I think there's at least another season or even two like this one ahead, whoever comes in.

And for Kenny to go, some behind the scenes deal will need to be done. He's as greedy (sorry - sensible) as any manager with a huge sacking fee in his contract. Why should he walk away from that without being pushed, unless some behind the scenes deal is done to pay him something and he resigns.

Or the Yanks give him another season, especially if you win the FA Cup, or even get into the final.

If he loses the fans, he's finished.

Dalgilsh will never lose the Liverpool faithful. Any grief that comes his way will be from the youth brought up on Sky Sports and the retarded musings of Gray, Keys and that blowhard post match interviewer Geoff Shreeves.

Interestingly Unai Emery seems to be having a mutual falling out with Valencia. He's one of the most tactically astute coaches around and doesn't need cash. he's far more used to losing his best players. Jurgen Klopps achievements with dortmund makes him interesting too.

[Abrak]

They should start to worry they are closer to relegation than a top 4 spot.

So i think this thread is relevant as they are in decline and there blind loyalty to kkk is dragging them down, if this was any other manager at liverpool right now he would have been shown the door.

I am surprised that you are so quick to show KD the door. It is hardly as though the remaining matches are going to cause us to be relegated or cost us top 4. It is not as though FSG is suddenly going to appoint a new permanent manager who they dont know in 5 minutes for the remainder of the season. So if they sack KD I guess they would have to make say Steve Clarke interim manager until the end of the season and there is no particular indication that he would do a better job.

[rixalex]

this didn't need another thread and could happily, or not, have gone in the existing liverpool fc thread.

Yeah i agree. As i have said of the Man United in Decline thread, having a specific bash one club thread in my opinion just about crosses the line from banter into trolling. As mods refuse to either merge the Man United in Decline thread into the Man United thread (they say it can't be done), or simply close it, i guess it is only to be expected that other clubs will in time have their own Decline threads. The trend has been set - well actually it was set about 5 years ago - so why this has taken so long, i'm not so sure. Perhaps it shows what a good humoured bunch we at United are?

[carmine]

this didn't need another thread and could happily, or not, have gone in the existing liverpool fc thread.

Yeah i agree. As i have said of the Man United in Decline thread, having a specific bash one club thread in my opinion just about crosses the line from banter into trolling. As mods refuse to either merge the Man United in Decline thread into the Man United thread (they say it can't be done), or simply close it, i guess it is only to be expected that other clubs will in time have their own Decline threads. The trend has been set - well actually it was set about 5 years ago - so why this has taken so long, i'm not so sure. Perhaps it shows what a good humoured bunch we at United are?

All of you except jimbo!

[nev]

They should start to worry they are closer to relegation than a top 4 spot.

So i think this thread is relevant as they are in decline and there blind loyalty to kkk is dragging them down, if this was any other manager at liverpool right now he would have been shown the door.

I am surprised that you are so quick to show KD the door. It is hardly as though the remaining matches are going to cause us to be relegated or cost us top 4. It is not as though FSG is suddenly going to appoint a new permanent manager who they dont know in 5 minutes for the remainder of t,he season. So if they sack KD I guess they would have to make say Steve Clarke interim manager until the end of the season and there is no particular indication that he would do a better job.

Agree why sack him indeed he is doing a fantastic job, i hope he stays for years to come, he has shown what a fantastic manager he is, the buys the way he deals with the press, its plain to see his record since the turn of the years is just what a team the size of liverpool deserve.

[MrRed]

It is all about opinions and the banter is always important on here,but the fact that Liverpool have gone so long and are now the second placed team in Merseyside is very worrying to some Liverpool followers....even if they don't admit it or refuse to post about it on this thread!!!

They are quick to post on the United in decline thread though which sometimes make me wonder if the "great Scouse sense of humor" is just a myth or invented in Liverpool by themselves

If they had not won the Carling Cup already i wonder if they would be so forgiving to Kenny???