Retiring To Thailand

[tlethere]

Hi,

Ive been reading this site a while now and seen numerous posts etc. Was kinda hoping I could chat (via email) with exBrits to understand how easy or hard it is. My storey

1) 42, male, not partnered or looking, live in London, work in London, house in Surrey

2) Love thailand, spent over three months there in 6 years on trips and so forth

3) Have looked at Chaam / Huahin for land - reason its 2 hours from BKK, great for medical, dental emergencies, even local arent good enough or plane/flights home

4) Understand reasonably the land laws, leasing, building costs

5) Many have just suggested buy a condo or rent (though I like a garden and time spent of looking after it) pool etc means its my own place, rather than it feeling like a holiday let

6) Spent a year learning Thai - not much use now, but I hope I'll pick it up

7) Plan is to buy land, then not do much till Im 50+ as in retirement visa - gives me time to figure out stuff save up money

8) Plan is to sell my UK home, buy a 1 bed flat then use cash from house to build house and live from with pension when that kicks in. No point having a large house in the UK thats only there gathering dust as an emergency stop back in blighty - probably rent

So in my head Ive kinda got a plan, saw some beautiful land in Chaam etc - like the location. Ive been to Chiang Mai/Rai and love the area but love being able to jump on the train up to Bangkok for shopping also easy for people coming over or me zipping off to see other parts of Asia from BKK airport.

Im just keen to speak to people that have been on this journey and how they got on, really handy if they live in Chaam/Huahin areas - I keep being told, dont lay down roots, just rent. Kinda not my thing, prefer to have a place called home. Already been working out financials etc so Im going to do this one way or other, I dont see myself working past 55 period, preferably just after 50 if I can.

Hope you dont think its all baloney, have probably spent 2 years researching and learning what I need or think I need to know. Also - I know 50 is a way off, but Ive gotta get my savings sorted.

Any help/advice - greatly received.

Thanks - Tony

[JohnnyGray]

Forget "buying" land. You can't own land as a foreigner in Thailand. OK you can buy a Condo, but what for? Rent somewhere nice and live from your UK investments and pension

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Actually it's perfectly legal to negotiate a 30-year rental of raw land and build a house on it. I personally think the way most people purchase real estate here is not really an investment as such, probably better to see it as a living expense.

To me it makes more sense to just rent a house, in your case with decent soil for a garden - in my case I extend my lease every year out to the following three years, locking in the rental rate and negotiating necessary repairs and improvements each year. The big advantage that way is of course the flexibility of relocating, eg when the neighbor builds a moo-katat joint blasting sub-normal karaoke screaming across your yard until 2am three nights a week.

A good income-generating property back home under decent affordable management will go a long way toward supplementing your pension. Of course any other income-generating investments can do the same, as you get older appreciation isn't as important except to your heirs, but it's a comfort having the ability to convert some of the capital to ready cash if necessary to cover extraordinary medical expenses or other emergency.

Making such investments in developed nations with better rule of law is IMO safer than trying to navigate the thickets here in Thailand.

[Colin Yai]

In my neck of the woods (Buri Ram Province) to can rent a super brand new house for 5/6 thousand a month !, yeah thats right 5or 6 grand and you can live the life of Riley for 35 grand a month fully inclusive , two good hospitals with good doctors Buri ram and Surin and all the modern amenities , if you do decide to come and live here ,talk to people who have lived here for quite some time , do not rush into anything which you may regret later , personally I could not be more happier with my lot ,but have heard and seen quite a few horror stories, best of luck.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Colin Yai

[Colin Yai]

Forget "buying" land. You can't own land as a foreigner in Thailand. OK you can buy a Condo, but what for? Rent somewhere nice and live from your UK investments and pension

Sound advice JG you obviously "know the score"

[BigJohnnyBKK]

In my neck of the woods (Buri Ram Province) to can rent a super brand new house for 5/6 thousand a month !, yeah thats right 5or 6 grand , two good hospitals with good doctors Buri ram and Surin and all the modern amenities , if you do decide to come and live here ,talk to people who have lived here for quite some time , do not rush into anything which you may regret later , personally I could not be more happier with my lot ,but have heard and seen quite a few horror stories, best of luck.

I've heard some horror stories about the quality of care available in Buriram and Surin, no matter how much you're willing to pay, upcountry hospitals everywhere these days have tremendous problems attracting and retaining decent doctors.

For anything tricky or serious, I'd definitely want my insurance to cover evac costs to BKK.

[tlethere]

Cool, some good comments/suggestions. I totally agree on real estate, I spent ages talking to Siam Legal - leasing land for 30 years and immediately extending for 30+30 to get it to 90 years (id be dust by then anyhow!). Seems the property would always be mine - the land to the original land owner. Something I could leave behind, though a tad complicated.

Would be easier if like Malaysia, they allowed full ownership to non nationals, though I dont disagree with the legal ruling in one respect - we'd push out locals in the expat "hot" areas.

I had looked at renting, some places I was looking at were coming in at £1k per month, though just checking out Buri Ram Province ;-) I guess Ive travelled a lot with work over the years and been in apartments. Kinda always felt like a sitting tennant. But I like the idea of negotiating a long term lease - and you're right. If I dont like it, up sticks and re locate.

Id always have cash in the bank for an emergency evac home. Plus if I rented, the house could stay "as is" and become an income earner. Currently a place like mine would get £1500 - £1700 per month. Thats not a bad little earner - if I had a problem and had to go back and live in the UK for medical/health reasons I could then sell up and use the collarteral to fund that. Have no hiers, can medically have any umless I adopt. So can run that down as I deal with what ever comes later in life!

Def food for thought ;-)

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

You've spent two years researching future retirement life in Thailand, and didn't discover that non-Thais are not legally allowed to own land here??? That's a pretty big item to have missed, especially considering your stated plans.

Yes, there are ways that some people find to evade that law... You can marry a Thai, and the land can be held in her name, but if things go wrong, you'll walk away with nothing. Some people hold land in company names or thru Thai nominees, but those are both potentially risky methods.

Time to go back to the research drawing board.

[farang000999]

just rent a house somewhere. buying land is a dumb idea.

[tlethere]

Maybe. I was a little unclear.

I found out that non Thai's can't own land pretty quickly. You can through business agreements, but that loop hole is being closed down. Non nationals can own condos - again, technically owned by the overall building owner.

There have been rumours of the Thai government lifting the ban, though I doubt any time soon. Alternatively as you suggest, marry.

I stupidly wasted time looking around before honing in on the legal side of land ownership.

Having worked and lived in Europe, Australia, America etc I'd never come across this so never even thought to ask. My mother is building in Gambia, they don't even ask for visas, she comes and goes as she pleases.

In addition, I've travelled north and south across Thailand during that time enjoying the country and viewing areas. Its only when you speak to locals in the area, that you get to know about the location 24/7/365. Dropping in for a 2/3/4 holiday isn't the same as living somewhere - hence my post here.

In summary

-Buying land, possible, not worth the hassle

-or marry

-Buy condo, but your stuck to one location

-Long term leases seems the best way forward

:-)

[sirineou]

I don't get it, The Op has clearly stated several times that he understood the Thai law concerning land ownership, and has researched the land lease options, Further more he has stated that for personal preferance reasons he does not want to rent.Yet people reply with statements such as "You cant own land" and "why dont you rent".,

I agree with Tlethere on the " ownership" aspect ,

I dont mind renting but ownership has it's attractions,,

I dont like living in some one else s house,, I like the Idea of doing to it what ever I pleases when ever I pleased, and if I liked to set it on fire and play the violin while I watch it burn, it would be my option,

I dont think a couple of million baht is a lot of money for a man to be the king.of his castle..(with permission from the misses of course )

and if in the end I loose, what amounts to the price of a car in the US, then ,,, be it.

To me It sounds like Tlethere has done his research and has a well laid out plan

Edited April 22, 2012 by sirineou

[KeyserSoze01]

Alterations to a rental by a long-term lessee are not uncommon and usually negotiated with the owner. After all, if you have been a good tenant for years, they would like to keep you.

I used to be in the "own it" camp, until I did the numbers and it is much more cost effective to rent. You don't tie up your capital and those baht can be earning you interest / dividends, whereas if invested in property, it is a sunk investment. Then comes the time when you want to up stakes and have a piece of property tying up your capital, thus delaying or preventing your relocation.

[GuestHouse]

OP you've said you want to retire to Thailand, se your place in the UK, buy some land in Thailand and then spend time until you are 50 and can get a retirement visa and in the meantime save some money.

I'd suggest you sit down with a financial advisor and make a plan.

Things to discuss:

Capital required to achieve a sustainable retirement.

The change in focus from working life when we build capital to retired life when we need to protect our capital.

If you need to work, a plan for income needs and a contigiency plan in the event that your single days come to an end.

If you don't have your pensiin/retirement funds in place (few people do at 42) then a savings plan to close the gap.

Loose the attachment to buying land.

[lovelomsak]

If you do decide to purchase land look at it as an expense not an investment.Consider the money gone and not to be recovered.I only buy land here as presents for women. Some guys buy them gold I buy them land. If you look at as an expense same as a car you will be ok. Buy it do what you want with it and in the end see no return to you.

[TommoPhysicist]

Best way to have land.

Find a nice Thai lady who owns some land and a house, move in with her, pay living expenses.

This will save you lots of money and there are plenty of Thai ladies with some good property they already took from some daft foreigner.

[arthurwait]

I know probably less than you on these matters, but just wondering about peoples opinions on them:

1. Do people lease land out for 30 - 90 years here as for Thais it's one of the best if not best way to make money in this country and the first thing they sell if they need quick money, for a flattering business, college fees etc ?

2. The OP says if needed he could sell the house if things went wrong. Selling a second hand house is hard enough here anyway, but on leased land would it not be pretty much worthless unless selling to another expat, which is a limited market ?

3. Did the the once you've left the NHS for 6 months can you go back question ever get settled ?

4. Can you rent out a property in Thailand and earn from it without living here : Visa, work permit etc. if you can find tennants ?

I may have been better to have eaten breakfast before posting this.

[lopburi3]

There have been rumours of the Thai government lifting the ban, though I doubt any time soon. Alternatively as you suggest, marry.

And marriage would help how? You still can not own land. And Thai law can disallow shortcuts like that multi 30 year lease (and any other) at any moment (just for calling it what it often is - a method to sidestep land ownership laws to give control to foreign nationals). If you want to take the gamble fine - but at least recognize it as a risk in your planning. Lawyers directly involved in such activities for there livelihood may not your best source of impartial information.

[chiang mai]

Did I miss somewhere what visa the OP will use for the next eight years that will permit him to reside here full time?

[BigJohnnyBKK]

-Buying land, possible, not worth the hassle

-or marry

-Buy condo, but your stuck to one location

-Long term leases seems the best way forward

Do NOT pay any extra for anything past 30 years, anyone advising that that is secured by law is IMO dodgy, the lessor can easily renege on that and you have no recourse, I believe they're technically not even allowed to make such promises.

In fact it's pretty easy for a lessor to force you off the land even in the first 30 years, especially if they're a powerful person with connections to the local PTB - much better off seeking your rental land through trusted friends and relations at ground-level.

And of course best if you can pay the rent as you go, perhaps annually in advance, or for me at most three years at a time. This shouldn't be a problem if you show you're making improvements that they or their heirs will benefit from.

Best way to have land.

Find a nice Thai lady who owns some land and a house, move in with her, pay living expenses.

This will save you lots of money and there are plenty of Thai ladies with some good property they already took from some daft foreigner.

But of course you don't actually "have" the land, simply the privilege of using it for as long as things are OK between you. Similar to the rental idea but with the annual payments not explicit I suppose.

Great idea if you can swing it, but I prefer making my choices based on other criteria personally.

1. Do people lease land out for 30 - 90 years here as for Thais it's one of the best if not best way to make money in this country and the first thing they sell if they need quick money, for a flattering business, college fees etc ?

2. The OP says if needed he could sell the house if things went wrong. Selling a second hand house is hard enough here anyway, but on leased land would it not be pretty much worthless unless selling to another expat, which is a limited market ?

3. Did the the once you've left the NHS for 6 months can you go back question ever get settled ?

4. Can you rent out a property in Thailand and earn from it without living here : Visa, work permit etc. if you can find tennants ?

I may have been better to have eaten breakfast before posting this.

Hard to follow all this, but I'll try for those questions I understand. The land lease is not an investment, simply an expense for those who want to build their own house legally. Don't try to see it as a workaround for the laws preventing foreigners from owning land, and don't see it as a source of capital that can be recovered - it's sunk expense just like any other rental AFAIC.

My understanding from those talking about investing in condos and renting them out to generate income is that in practice they are able to do this without any WP/visa issues. However like most things here, it's important to fly below the radar, which means if you're buying up dozens of units they should be spread around enough and not have obvious paper-trail connections between them, so you don't make anyone jealous or present a large target to scammer officials.

At least in theory this seems possibly less risky than many other ways of investing money in Thailand, but of course the rate of return would very much depend on purchasing low and getting decent rents, and from what I've seen that ratio here is higher than in other places. And you'd want to have solid experience in that game before sinking the large amount of capital required. Getting the capital back out would IMO take a very long time, not quickly convertible to cash without taking large losses.

For me, I wouldn't let my significant other know about, much less get her involved in any of my investment/passive income affairs, IMO just setting yourself up as the patsy if/when things go wrong. I know many will disagree, but that's how I roll. Buying her land instead of gold as an outright gift (even if only acknowledged as such within your heart of hearts) is a very nice way to reward her if you can afford it, but for myself I would only do so after the fact, not as a deposit for future services. . .

Edited April 23, 2012 by BigJohnnyBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Maybe. I was a little unclear.

I found out that non Thai's can't own land pretty quickly. You can through business agreements, but that loop hole is being closed down. Non nationals can own condos - again, technically owned by the overall building owner.

Perhaps we got the impression about your Thailand land-buying plans from the following item in your OP:

7) Plan is to buy land, then not do much till Im 50+ as in retirement visa - gives me time to figure out stuff save up money

As for the "rumors" of the Thai government lifting the ban on foreigners owning land here, I haven't heard any such kind of rumors nor have I seen anything like that reported here on ThaiVisa...

Frankly, the government seems to be going the opposite direction lately, with all kinds of BS talk and media reports about government investigations into foreign nominee ownership of lots of prime tourist area land in places like Phuket and elsewhere (those being large projects typically, not individual homes so much).

As for long term leases of land and building a house, I think there are two aspects to that: one is the legal aspect, and the other is the practical aspect.

For the practical aspect, I'm not sure how many farangs here in Thailand lead such stable and unchanging lives that they're certain to want to stay in the same place for 30+ years. If someone's got such a lease and built a house there and then needs or wants to move, then what?

For the legal aspect, yes, farangs can lease land, I gather. But as for building a new house on leased land, I'm unclear about that. It seems to me I was reading here about some Thai amphur officials requiring proof of land ownership in order to approve house development.

I must say, I've read tons of threads here on long-term leases of land and houses held by farangs here in Thailand, and there never seems to be a clear resolution of just how that's likely to go.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Did I miss somewhere what visa the OP will use for the next eight years that will permit him to reside here full time?

It wasn't exactly clear, but it sounded like he was planning to stay in the UK until reaching age 50 for a retirement status here.

[chiang mai]

Did I miss somewhere what visa the OP will use for the next eight years that will permit him to reside here full time?

It wasn't exactly clear, but it sounded like he was planning to stay in the UK until reaching age 50 for a retirement status here.

That being the case and with all due respect to the OP and his hopes for the future, he's at the dreaming stage. The next eight years of his life will see a whole raft of changes, some expected but many not, particularly those that involve UK house prices and the UK economy. It may well be that in eight years time the plans made today are no longer viable. Now, if the OP is slowly doing research for an objective that is way downstream and he recognises that the shape of things may change radically before he can execute his plan, I'm all for that - just so that we all understand what we're talking about here.

[longstebe]

I don't get it, The Op has clearly stated several times that he understood the Thai law concerning land ownership, and has researched the land lease options, Further more he has stated that for personal preferance reasons he does not want to rent.Yet people reply with statements such as "You cant own land" and "why dont you rent".,

I agree with Tlethere on the " ownership" aspect ,

I dont mind renting but ownership has it's attractions,,

I dont like living in some one else s house,, I like the Idea of doing to it what ever I pleases when ever I pleased, and if I liked to set it on fire and play the violin while I watch it burn, it would be my option,

I dont think a couple of million baht is a lot of money for a man to be the king.of his castle..(with permission from the misses of course )

and if in the end I loose, what amounts to the price of a car in the US, then ,,, be it.

To me It sounds like Tlethere has done his research and has a well laid out plan

Briliant mate.

I'm also one for owning rather than renting.

[Naam]

just rent a house somewhere. buying land is a dumb idea.

mileages vary. some people think renting is a dumb idea.

[samran]

In my neck of the woods (Buri Ram Province) to can rent a super brand new house for 5/6 thousand a month !, yeah thats right 5or 6 grand and you can live the life of Riley for 35 grand a month fully inclusive , two good hospitals with good doctors Buri ram and Surin and all the modern amenities , if you do decide to come and live here ,talk to people who have lived here for quite some time , do not rush into anything which you may regret later , personally I could not be more happier with my lot ,but have heard and seen quite a few horror stories, best of luck.

There is only one problem with that plan....you'd be in Buri Ram....

[villagefarang]

You sound like a planner and a dreamer. Plans and dreams are great motivators but life in a foreign country doesn’t always go to plan. Planned flexibility is often of more value than a fixed plan.

I always advise people to live here for a while first, before following through on some of the big plans. Our Thailand dreams, our wants and desires, are often a moving target over time. Who knows what you are going to want in your fifties or beyond? Don’t be in too big a rush to lock yourself into something you may not want later on.

[GuestHouse]

Planned flexibility is often of more value than a fixed plan.

Best realised as secure income, resrve capital, health insurance and bridges back to the old country not burned.

[farang000999]

I don't get it, The Op has clearly stated several times that he understood the Thai law concerning land ownership, and has researched the land lease options, Further more he has stated that for personal preferance reasons he does not want to rent.Yet people reply with statements such as "You cant own land" and "why dont you rent".,

I agree with Tlethere on the " ownership" aspect ,

I dont mind renting but ownership has it's attractions,,

I dont like living in some one else s house,, I like the Idea of doing to it what ever I pleases when ever I pleased, and if I liked to set it on fire and play the violin while I watch it burn, it would be my option,

I dont think a couple of million baht is a lot of money for a man to be the king.of his castle..(with permission from the misses of course )

and if in the end I loose, what amounts to the price of a car in the US, then ,,, be it.

To me It sounds like Tlethere has done his research and has a well laid out plan

i guess it is just me but have never understood this pyscholgical fascination of having to own the house they are living in. sure, in the US where you can get a 30 yr fixed rate mortgage and watch the US gov inflate away the currency it is a good idea. in thailand, when you start from scratch you are subjected to so many potential problems from beginning to end all so that you can be tied to a property and call it yours (as long as the mickey mouse laws they have in place about farang owned land/houses does not change).

i have never rented a home and felt like "this is not my home" because my name was not on the deed. you can invest this capital elsewhere, even in home building companies if your heart desires.

sure if OP does not care if he loses every cent invested go for it, really though, i think it is mainly a pyschological flaw.

Edited April 23, 2012 by farang000999

[nietzche]

Id always have cash in the bank for an emergency evac home. Plus if I rented, the house could stay "as is" and become an income earner. Currently a place like mine would get £1500 - £1700 per month. Thats not a bad little earner - if I had a problem and had to go back and live in the UK for medical/health reasons I could then sell up and use the collarteral to fund that.

Def food for thought ;-)

You're assuming it's easy to sell property in Thailand. The same ideas regarding property etc. do not apply here. Get this idea about buying land out of you're head. If you want to be here, just rent!

The way things are going here right now, I wouldn't invest more than I was willing to lose.

BTW, if you live in in London, why is you're house in Surrey sitting empty. Why are you not renting that out already???

Sounds like you're in a decent financial situation. That can change very quickly over here.

Edited April 23, 2012 by nietzche

[tlethere]

wow, thanks for the responses.

I guess you guys are right, planning and dreaming stage. I sure as hell dont plan to stay here in the big smoke much longer than I have to. Seen to many slog away till they're 60, retire and have a heart attack at 62!

Between now and 50, work and save. Having read the posts, I’ve now got a better idea. To buy myself a one bed flat in the UK as my own personal bolthole and then another 2 bed property in the UK that I can let out. If I own it outright this would give me a nice rental income that should easily cover any rental costs in Thailand and be there for emergency should I need to sell it to raise capital etc.

Rest is planned for retirement fund. NHS, I have diabetes, so would leave UK property intact here and zip back once a year for medical collections and check-ups. Seems easier in my book to do a one stop shop. Not sure of anyone else has done that kinda thing. Hopefully NHS remains intact. One thing I haven’t figured out is : if I get a 1year retirement visa, does the UK government get told and then update their records for NHS.

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/movingabroad/Pages/Livingabroad.aspx

Living abroad Moving outside the EEA

You will not be covered for healthcare paid by the UK if you are going to live permanently outside the UK.

Hoping to get round that by popping back and looking like Im still living in the UK. Council tax and bills will all be direct debit., Everythings online, Thats how my mum does everyhting from Gambia