Manchester United

[mrbojangles]

Joe Hart for instance made his Premiership debut at about 22.

19 against Sheff United and kept a clean sheet.

[Abrak]

So I see that one of my worse nightmares for Man U is about to come true. They are going to pay off all their debts. I always imagined that the end game for Man U would be that the Glaziers would eventually sell to someone like Qatar, who would then pay off Man Utd's debt which would leave the club with an extra 50m additional cash each year to spend on the team. So not really giving any other team a decent chance to compete with them.

What they are planning to do is slightly different. They are going to raise about US$1bn by floating the company at the end of the year on the Singapore stock exchange with the Glaziers retaining at least a controlling interest of 50%.

That would certainly make Man U debt free and save them a bundle in interest payments. Man U major outstanding loan is a 526m secured senior 2017 bond that they issued a couple of years ago with a yield of 8.5%. Under the terms of the issue they can redeem 35% of the bond issuance and they also have a call option on the balance in 2013. So the equity issue will at the very minimum save Man Utd 45m of interest payments every year.

The bad news (I suspect) for Man Utd fans is that I think it is very unlikely that the club will get to spend these interest expense savings. This is because I would guess this is essentially a refinancing to make the Glazier's wealthier. What is most likely to happen is that the Glazier's will argue that now the club is listed and has a new raft of shareholders, then these shareholders should receive an annual dividend. Of course the Glazier's will be the biggest shareholder (with say 60%) and will receive 60% of the annual dividend. In fact it works out quite neatly for them - if the Glaziers simply paid dividends out to themselves they would be hated more than ever but as they are going to pay dividends to all shareholders, noone can complain.

So where does that leave the club? My guess is that it is back at exactly square one. Rather than being the only clubs that has to finance a highly leveraged funding structure, you will be the only club that has to pay out annual dividends to shareholders. And if they have a 40% payout ratio on your 100m of operating profits, it will cost the club almost exactly the same as the interest payments on the debt. The only difference is that instead of paying off the banks, you will now start paying directly to the Glaziers and other shareholders.

Obviously this is hardly going to leave you impoverished. The club has by far the largest turnover but having to give away 40m+ per annum means that you have substantially less of an advantage than you could have.

[SantiSuk]

I would be surprised if the club were to be left entirely debt-free in an era of bargain low interest rates. Debt is usually an efficient tax-reduction tool also (as opposed to dividends), unless Man U is going to end up offshore in Singapore - low tax regime so no need to use debt to reduce it. I know the City fans always joke that Man U is not in Manchester, but Singapore???!!!

[before someone tries to jump in to correct me I'm not saying that a flotation in Singapore means you are a Singapore company]

Probably some blend of public/private/debt funding will ensue from any flotation/restructuring.

[sharecropper]

Presumably Man U (and the Glazers) also remove the spectre of the banks calling in their debts as some inopportune time in the future, which could allow some bottom feeder to buy the club on the cheap, as happened at Liverpool.

The Glazers probably learned a lesson in debt finance (but not in football) from Liverpool there.

[Abrak]

I would be surprised if the club were to be left entirely debt-free in an era of bargain low interest rates. Debt is usually an efficient tax-reduction tool also (as opposed to dividends), unless Man U is going to end up offshore in Singapore - low tax regime so no need to use debt to reduce it. I know the City fans always joke that Man U is not in Manchester, but Singapore???!!!

[before someone tries to jump in to correct me I'm not saying that a flotation in Singapore means you are a Singapore company]

Probably some blend of public/private/debt funding will ensue from any flotation/restructuring.

Football debt is not cheap. Man Utd has an outstanding loan of 526m with a fixed interest rate of 8.5% until 2017. Until the Glazier's repaid their own 140m of PIKs their interest rate was 14.25%. Essentially what they are doing is swapping 8.5% interest debt for equity they will pay say a 2% yield on. More importantly it is mostly an exercise for the owners to take money out of the club having got the club to pay for their acquisition in the first place.

Man U already have an efficient tax structure as by structuring the acquisition as an LBO they can capitalize the goodwill on the acquisition and depreciate it over 15 years which gives a 35m annual tax shelter from goodwill. You could also argue that the large management fees that the Glaziers take out of the club successfully reduces potential tax liabilities by reducing profit.

[MrRed]

Presumably Man U (and the Glazers) also remove the spectre of the banks calling in their debts as some inopportune time in the future, which could allow some bottom feeder to buy the club on the cheap, as happened at Liverpool.

The Glazers probably learned a lesson in debt finance (but not in football) from Liverpool there.

I think the Glazers know all their is to know about debt finance.

Abrak have you got bored on your own thread now,decided to move over here?

[rixalex]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/14444552.stm

Obertan to Newcastle. Although the end product wasn't always great, i thought he showed good promise. Great feet, and great pace.

Not to question SAF, but it's funny how with some players, take Nani, he seems happy to give hour after hour after hour of playing time of them not delivering, until they start improving, but whereas others get not much more than a few games before being given the heave ho.

[carmine]

http://news.bbc.co.u...ll/14444552.stm

Obertan to Newcastle. Although the end product wasn't always great, i thought he showed good promise. Great feet, and great pace.

Not to question SAF, but it's funny how with some players, take Nani, he seems happy to give hour after hour after hour of playing time of them not delivering, until they start improving, but whereas others get not much more than a few games before being given the heave ho.

I've long felt Sir seems to know a little bit more than everyone else.

[rixalex]

http://news.bbc.co.u...ll/14444552.stm

Obertan to Newcastle. Although the end product wasn't always great, i thought he showed good promise. Great feet, and great pace.

Not to question SAF, but it's funny how with some players, take Nani, he seems happy to give hour after hour after hour of playing time of them not delivering, until they start improving, but whereas others get not much more than a few games before being given the heave ho.

I've long felt Sir seems to know a little bit more than everyone else.

Good apres noon to you carmine.

Yep, in SAF we trust.

[SantiSuk]

http://news.bbc.co.u...ll/14444552.stm

Obertan to Newcastle. Although the end product wasn't always great, i thought he showed good promise. Great feet, and great pace.

Not to question SAF, but it's funny how with some players, take Nani, he seems happy to give hour after hour after hour of playing time of them not delivering, until they start improving, but whereas others get not much more than a few games before being given the heave ho.

I've long felt Sir seems to know a little bit more than everyone else.

Good apres noon to you carmine.

Yep, in SAF we trust.

I felt the same when I saw Nani look really sharp in the Charity Shield. One week later - back to the old slash and miss routine. He must have the highest shots off target ratio of any forward in EPL history.

[rixalex]

I felt the same when I saw Nani look really sharp in the Charity Shield. One week later - back to the old slash and miss routine. He must have the highest shots off target ratio of any forward in EPL history.

Yep, he's one of those who either dazzles or disappoints - for me more often the latter. A bit of a Forlan.

Or another way to put it, a poor man's Ronaldo. From a dead ball he is hopeless.

He did have a hatful of assists though last season, so i guess that earns his place.

[adder]

I felt the same when I saw Nani look really sharp in the Charity Shield. One week later - back to the old slash and miss routine. He must have the highest shots off target ratio of any forward in EPL history.

Yep, he's one of those who either dazzles or disappoints - for me more often the latter. A bit of a Forlan.

Or another way to put it, a poor man's Ronaldo. From a dead ball he is hopeless.

He did have a hatful of assists though last season, so i guess that earns his place.

He is grossley overrated.

[rixalex]

I felt the same when I saw Nani look really sharp in the Charity Shield. One week later - back to the old slash and miss routine. He must have the highest shots off target ratio of any forward in EPL history.

Yep, he's one of those who either dazzles or disappoints - for me more often the latter. A bit of a Forlan.

Or another way to put it, a poor man's Ronaldo. From a dead ball he is hopeless.

He did have a hatful of assists though last season, so i guess that earns his place.

He is grossley overrated.

By whom? I don't think i have ever heard people, United fans or otherwise, saying what a great player he is. More often than not, talk is of how frustrating he is, whether it be his finishing, his freekicks or his diving.

[redrus]

I felt the same when I saw Nani look really sharp in the Charity Shield. One week later - back to the old slash and miss routine. He must have the highest shots off target ratio of any forward in EPL history.

Yep, he's one of those who either dazzles or disappoints - for me more often the latter. A bit of a Forlan.

Or another way to put it, a poor man's Ronaldo. From a dead ball he is hopeless.

He did have a hatful of assists though last season, so i guess that earns his place.

He is grossley overrated.

By whom? I don't think i have ever heard people, United fans or otherwise, saying what a great player he is. More often than not, talk is of how frustrating he is, whether it be his finishing, his freekicks or his diving.

Adder's views seem as asp like towards United as his name suggests he may be....!

redrus

[adder]

I felt the same when I saw Nani look really sharp in the Charity Shield. One week later - back to the old slash and miss routine. He must have the highest shots off target ratio of any forward in EPL history.

Yep, he's one of those who either dazzles or disappoints - for me more often the latter. A bit of a Forlan.

Or another way to put it, a poor man's Ronaldo. From a dead ball he is hopeless.

He did have a hatful of assists though last season, so i guess that earns his place.

He is grossley overrated.

By whom? I don't think i have ever heard people, United fans or otherwise, saying what a great player he is. More often than not, talk is of how frustrating he is, whether it be his finishing, his freekicks or his diving.

Take alook on Manchester Evening News web some was shouting that he is better than Ronaldo after the Pre Season Charity Friendly match last wk .

[adder]

He is grossley overrated.

By whom? I don't think i have ever heard people, United fans or otherwise, saying what a great player he is. More often than not, talk is of how frustrating he is, whether it be his finishing, his freekicks or his diving.

Adder's views seem as asp like towards United as his name suggests he may be....!

redrus

What are you on ?

[rixalex]

Take alook on Manchester Evening News web some was shouting that he is better than Ronaldo after the Pre Season Charity Friendly match last wk .

Search around on the net enough and you can find every possible opinion on every player. A bet for example, if i did a search on Balotelli, i could turn up the names of a few numpties hailing him as a class act.

A few freaks don't make up a general opinion though, and the general opinion of Nani is i think pretty accurate, and certainly not over-rated.

[Mooner]

Nani bashers! Look at stats!

PREMIER LEAGUE    SEASON 2010-11  

  TOTAL COMBINED GOALS & ASSISTS  

  PLAYER TEAM GLS ASS COMB  

  Carlos Tevez Manchester City 21 6 27  

  Didier Drogba Chelsea 12 15 27  

  Luis Nani Manchester United 9 18 27  

  Dimitar Berbatov Manchester United 21 4 25  

  Robin van Persie Arsenal 18 7 25  

  Peter Odemwingie West Bromwich Albion 15 9 24  

  Rafael van der Vaart Tottenham Hotspur 13 9 22  

  Wayne Rooney Manchester United 11 11 22  

  Dirk Kuyt Liverpool 13 8 21  

  Charlie Adam Blackpool 12 9 21  

  Darren Bent Aston Villa 17 2 19  

  Andrew Carroll Liverpool 13 6 19  

  Florent Malouda Chelsea 13 5 18  

  Ashley Young Aston Villa 7 11 18  

  Fernando Torres Chelsea 10 7 17  

  Charles N'Zogbia Wigan Athletic 9 8 17  

  Andrey Arshavin Arsenal 6 11 17  

  Francesc Fabregas Arsenal 3 14 17  

  Dudley Campbell Blackpool 13 3 16  

  Johan Elmander Bolton Wanderers 10 6 16  

  Theo Walcott Arsenal 9 7 16  

  Stewart Downing Aston Villa 7 9 16  

  Leighton Baines Everton 5 11 16  

  Javier Hernandez Manchester United 13 2 15  

  Clint Dempsey Fulham 12 3 15  

  Asamoah Gyan Sunderland 10 5 15  

  Salomon Kalou Chelsea 10 5 15  

  Chris Brunt West Bromwich Albion 4 11 15  

  Kevin Nolan Newcastle United 12 2 14  

  Frank Lampard Chelsea 10 4 14  

  Roman Pavlyuchenko Tottenham Hotspur 10 4 14  

  Kevin Davies Bolton Wanderers 8 6 14  

  Steven Fletcher Wolverhampton Wand 10 3 13  

  Tim Cahill Everton 9 4 13  

  Marouane Chamakh Arsenal 7 6 13  

  Gary Taylor-Fletcher Blackpool 6 7 13  

  Gnegneri Toure Yaya Manchester City 6 7 13  

  Matthew Etherington Stoke City 5 8 13  

  David Silva Manchester City 4 9 13  

  Joey Barton Newcastle United 4 9 13  

  Peter Crouch Tottenham Hotspur 4 9 13  

  Nicolas Anelka Chelsea 6 6 12  

  Shola Ameobi Newcastle United 6 6 12  

  Marc Albrighton Aston Villa 5 7 12  

  Raul Meireles Liverpool 5 7 12  

  Matthew Jarvis Wolverhampton Wand 4 8 12  

  Rodriguez Maxi Liverpool 10 1 11  

  Samir Nasri Arsenal 10 1 11  

  Hugo Rodallega Wigan Athletic 9 2 11  

  Kenwyne Jones Stoke City 9 2 11  

  Frederic Piquionne West Ham United 6 5 11  

  Peter Lovenkrands Newcastle United 6 5 11  

  Bobby Zamora Fulham 5 6 11  

  Chung-Yong Lee Bolton Wanderers 3 8 11  

  Jerome Thomas West Bromwich Albion 3 8 11  

  Jermaine Beckford Everton 8 2 10  

  Nikola Zigic Birmingham City 5 5 10  

  Adam Johnson Manchester City 4 6 10  

  Leon Osman Everton 4 6 10  

  Morten Gamst Pedersen Blackburn 4 6 10  

  Sebastian Larsson Birmingham City 4 6 10  

  Cameron Jerome Birmingham City 3 7 10  

  Jermaine Pennant Stoke City 3 7 10  

  Ryan Giggs Manchester United 2 8 10  

  Sylvan Ebanks-Blake Wolverhampton Wand 7 2 9  

  Jonathan Walters Stoke City 6 3 9  

  Robert Huth Stoke City 6 3 9  

  Carlton Cole West Ham United 5 4 9  

  Jason Roberts Blackburn 5 4 9  

  Kevin Doyle Wolverhampton Wand 5 4 9  

  Luke Varney Blackpool 5 4 9  

  Branislav Ivanovic Chelsea 4 5 9  

  Luis Suarez Liverpool 4 5 9  

  Steven Gerrard Liverpool 4 5 9  

  Craig Gardner Birmingham City 8   8  

  Daniel Sturridge Bolton Wanderers 8   8  

  Gareth Bale Tottenham Hotspur 7 1 8  

  Louis Saha Everton 7 1 8  

  Ji-Sung Park Manchester United 5 3 8  

  Scott Parker West Ham United 5 3 8  

  Brett Emerton Blackburn 4 4 8  

  Seamus Coleman Everton 4 4 8  

  Simon Davies Fulham 4 4 8  

  Jonas Gutierrez Newcastle United 3 5 8  

  Jordan Henderson Sunderland 3 5 8  

  Martin Petrov Bolton Wanderers 3 5 8  

  Darren Fletcher Manchester United 2 6 8  

  James Milner Manchester City 1 7 8  

  Demba Ba West Ham United 7   7  

  Brede Hangeland Fulham 6 1 7  

  Danny Welbeck Sunderland 6 1 7  

  Leon Best Newcastle United 6 1 7  

  Mario Balotelli Manchester City 6 1 7  

  Somen Tchoyi West Bromwich Albion 6 1 7  

  Youssouf Mulumbu West Bromwich Albion 6 1 7  

  Nikola Kalinic Blackburn 5 2 7  

  James Morrison West Bromwich Albion 4 3 7  

  Kieran Richardson Sunderland 4 3 7  

  Mark Noble West Ham United 4 3 7  

  Ricardo Fuller Stoke City 4 3 7  

  Mikel Arteta Everton 3 4 7  

  Victor Obinna West Ham United 3 4 7  

  Nenad Milijas Wolverhampton Wand 2 5 7  

  Steven Reid West Bromwich Albion 1 6 7  

  David Hoilett Blackburn 5 1 6  

  Marlon Harewood Blackpool 5 1 6  

  Nemanja Vidic Manchester United 5 1 6  

  Alex Song Arsenal 4 2 6  

  Damien Duff Fulham 4 2 6  

  Jermain Defoe Tottenham Hotspur 4 2 6  

  Tom Cleverley Wigan Athletic 4 2 6  

  Aaron Lennon Tottenham Hotspur 3 3 6  

  Andrew Johnson Fulham 3 3 6  

  Luka Modric Tottenham Hotspur 3 3 6  

  Michael Essien Chelsea 3 3 6  

  Moussa Dembele Fulham 3 3 6  

Some "big names" didn't do so well! People talk about Nani being h

[Mooner]

Oops! Got cut off!

Anyway... Turns out Nani might not be so hot and cold compared to other so called big names.

[rixalex]

Oops! Got cut off!

Anyway... Turns out Nani might not be so hot and cold compared to other so called big names.

I don't think anyone denies his assists of last season. It was impressive. I bet number of fluffs and number of greedy overly optimistic shots at goal (with Rooney standing in acres of space nearby) was pretty impressive too. Do you have a stat for that?

[Mooner]

I think you getting Nani and Lampard mixed up.

Most assists in the league says he can't be that greedy especially when you compare it to other wide/ midfielders.

Note! Most other players in the table around him are forwards

[redrus]

What are you on ?

What are you implying....?

redrus

[rixalex]

What are you on ?

What are you implying....?

redrus

[redrus]

What are you on ?

What are you implying....?

redrus

Rix, I have an hour to kill ......!!

redrus

[adder]

Take alook on Manchester Evening News web some was shouting that he is better than Ronaldo after the Pre Season Charity Friendly match last wk .

Search around on the net enough and you can find every possible opinion on every player. A bet for example, if i did a search on Balotelli, i could turn up the names of a few numpties hailing him as a class act.

A few freaks don't make up a general opinion though, and the general opinion of Nani is i think pretty accurate, and certainly not over-rated.

There it is a lemon sucker

[redrus]

What a sad little rag you are .Name calling like a school boy NERNER . If you want to call me names why not invite me to a meet where you can do it to my face

Nerner...

Listen, behave with your idle threats, this is neither the thread nor the forum for it. If you want to take issue with anyone here, do it via PM, it seems there will be plenty willing to take you up on your offer.

redrus

[MrRed]

Nerner grow up pal,where do you drink....i bet it is Pattaya

I will meet you i meet anyone me,always game for a laugh

[mrbojangles]

Gentlemen please !! :jap:

[Mooner]

Oops! Got cut off!

Anyway... Turns out Nani might not be so hot and cold compared to other so called big names.

I don't think anyone denies his assists of last season. It

was impressive. I bet number of fluffs and number of

greedy overly optimistic shots at goal (with Rooney

standing in acres of space nearby) was pretty impressive

too. Do you have a stat for that?

1 goal every 10.67 shots. Sorry! You did ask:)

Actually, his shots to goals ratio is the weakest out of the top 5 wide men last season.

He did better than the rest on all other aspects, crossing accuracy, assists, goals.

Top 5 men were

Nani

Bale

Downing

Albrighton

Jarvis

F-sake I'm turning into a stato!! Better go have a beer:)

[smokie36]

Gentlemen please !! :jap:

When's the meet up Mr Boj?

I'm not missing this one...