SantiSuk Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Depends what you mean by top class I suppose. 21 goals in 34 La Liga appearances is pretty dam_n good, though not vanP-class clearly. Pretty good, especially when you're playing with Mr Selfish on the left for club (and country come to that matter)! Let's wait and see Mr Red - I think he will have a good Euro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRed Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I think we should not worry to much about the defence with Sweden playing a 4-5-1 Walcott does offer pace and the ability to run at defenders although he does have to pick it up for England. We definitely do not need to play with back four and two in the hold like against France...no way! but this is where people go wrong in thinking that 4-2-3-1 is a defensive formation, it isn't. when you've not got the ball you're able to make it a 5 in front of your defence two swamp and stifle opponents. but when you're in possession it's the formation that gets the most out of your fullbacks as attackers with the wide men in the 3 tucking in towards the striker. the middle one in the 3, say gerrard, plays just off the striker. so then in possession one of the 2, say phil jones, can step up into the space vacated by gerrard as he goes forward. meanwhile you've got two excellent attacking fullbacks in cole and johnson giving you width. suddenly you're attacking with 7 players. while parker and the 2 centrebacks guard the back door. Some people go wrong Stevie! That is why we can also play with a 4-1-3-2 which does exactly the same as you say but in a different way ;-) and also has the emphasis on attack,i do agree with you that the full backs are a great pair for England and when they play well going forward we have a very good chance of winning games. As always it is about the flexibility of the personal we have and also the quality they have and performing to the managers strategy which as we know is give little away and pinch something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRed Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Depends what you mean by top class I suppose. 21 goals in 34 La Liga appearances is pretty dam_n good, though not vanP-class clearly. Pretty good, especially when you're playing with Mr Selfish on the left for club (and country come to that matter)! Let's wait and see Mr Red - I think he will have a good Euro I would score 20 in that team!! :-0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevieH Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I think we should not worry to much about the defence with Sweden playing a 4-5-1 Walcott does offer pace and the ability to run at defenders although he does have to pick it up for England. We definitely do not need to play with back four and two in the hold like against France...no way! but this is where people go wrong in thinking that 4-2-3-1 is a defensive formation, it isn't. when you've not got the ball you're able to make it a 5 in front of your defence two swamp and stifle opponents. but when you're in possession it's the formation that gets the most out of your fullbacks as attackers with the wide men in the 3 tucking in towards the striker. the middle one in the 3, say gerrard, plays just off the striker. so then in possession one of the 2, say phil jones, can step up into the space vacated by gerrard as he goes forward. meanwhile you've got two excellent attacking fullbacks in cole and johnson giving you width. suddenly you're attacking with 7 players. while parker and the 2 centrebacks guard the back door. That is why we can also play with a 4-1-3-2 which does exactly the same as you say but in a different way ;-) it doesn't though. a defined 2 up front means you don't have 5 in midfield without possession, making it harder to win the ball back and giving an opponent who is playing 5 in midfield the chance to outnumber you and boss that area of the pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SantiSuk Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 [i was not suggesting (^) that we don't aim to win against Sweden, Stevie, just pointing out the flexibility that a dominant France might allow to one of the other teams like England to get through by only gainng 3 more points. Just like I hope that we don't see a cautious England for the next game, I'm sure we will see a much more aggresssive France in their Ukraine match. i just don't think france are that good mate. they're on a good run in friendlies but while they have a few genuinely top class players (benzema, ribery, nasri) they have little experience of big tournaments and pretty much no on-field leadership. i can quite easily see them losing to ukraine and even going out at the group stage here. Way, way, way off beam for me, Stevie. Laurent Blanc is one of the best coaches. They have not lost a game since the fiasco 2 years ago under him (not just friendlies). We haven't seen Menes yet, and there is Ben Arfa if any of those 4 forwards don't work. England raised their game under a well-disciplined coach and scored first but were still lucky to get a draw. Against teams that do not have that kind of discipline (and I count both Sweden and Ukraine in that category - both overly reliant on one forward) I think they will clean up. Hey but this is football - you may well be proved right. I thought England would lose and you thought they would draw so what do I know? Theo - yes I agree with your comments Carmine - one average, one non-existent and one top-class. Worth picking in my view if the alternatives are an inexperienced Ox-Cha or Downing, but you have to pull him off by the 55th nminute if he's not on his game. Roy will also need to remind him that he is being picked for his right wing skills and not to wander into the middle. Milner is just too peripatetically mediocre for me (jack of all trades master of none). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SantiSuk Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 (edited) Depends what you mean by top class I suppose. 21 goals in 34 La Liga appearances is pretty dam_n good, though not vanP-class clearly. Pretty good, especially when you're playing with Mr Selfish on the left for club (and country come to that matter)! Let's wait and see Mr Red - I think he will have a good Euro I would score 20 in that team!! :-0 You'd better have a word with Mancini - that's way better than Adey baddie when he was there I suspect! Edited June 13, 2012 by SantiSuk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abrak Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 A lot of fantasy formations on here considering that Hodgson is not going to deviate from his 442. So the question is what can be done with the existing squad to make that formation a better attacking side. A lot of people have suggested dropping Ox but he has had tremendous write-ups by the UK press and pundits (I tend to think that half of these were written before the actual match.) He didnt link up well with either Cole or the front 2 (just 3 passes to Welbeck and 1 to Young.) I think replacing him with Walcott is worth a try. Once Rooney is back it might be worth placing Young (who didnt have a great match up front) out wide and Rooney and Welbeck up front. The other big concern for England is the fitness of Gerard and Parker. I cant see both players being fit for all the matches and Henderson and Jones as replacements isnt inspiring. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooner Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 The Gerrard and Parker issues are a concern as Hodgson thinks they cant play 2 games in 4 days! Only problem is we dont have much else available. I dont rate Henderson, a good prospect but not good enough at this level yet. I would go with Milner Cm as he was playing near the end of his Villa days. Only problem is who to partner him. Maybe we could get a half each out of Gerrard and Parker. I would go Hart Johnson Terry Lescott Cole Walcott Milner Gerrard/Parker Ox Young Wellbeck or Hart Johnson Terry Lescott Cole Ox Milner Parker/Gerrard Young Defoe Wellbeck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmine Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 The Gerrard and Parker issues are a concern as Hodgson thinks they cant play 2 games in 4 days! Only problem is we dont have much else available. I dont rate Henderson, a good prospect but not good enough at this level yet. I would go with Milner Cm as he was playing near the end of his Villa days. Only problem is who to partner him. Maybe we could get a half each out of Gerrard and Parker. I would go Hart Johnson Terry Lescott Cole Walcott Milner Gerrard/Parker Ox Young Wellbeck or Hart Johnson Terry Lescott Cole Ox Milner Parker/Gerrard Young Defoe Wellbeck Keep Parker in the midfield and have Gerrard sitting behing the striker. Let Parker doing the defending and breaking up attacks, you want Gerrard staying futher forward. The problem is, as abrak said, the manager is immovable from his 442. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooner Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 The Gerrard and Parker issues are a concern as Hodgson thinks they cant play 2 games in 4 days! Only problem is we dont have much else available. I dont rate Henderson, a good prospect but not good enough at this level yet. I would go with Milner Cm as he was playing near the end of his Villa days. Only problem is who to partner him. Maybe we could get a half each out of Gerrard and Parker. I would go Hart Johnson Terry Lescott Cole Walcott Milner Gerrard/Parker Ox Young Wellbeck or Hart Johnson Terry Lescott Cole Ox Milner Parker/Gerrard Young Defoe Wellbeck Keep Parker in the midfield and have Gerrard sitting behing the striker. Let Parker doing the defending and breaking up attacks, you want Gerrard staying futher forward. The problem is, as abrak said, the manager is immovable from his 442. I agree but Hodgson has came out today and said he feels that they cant play every 4 days and doesnt want to risk them getting injured! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razzler1973 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Press today seems to think we'll go with the same side as the France game but with 'concerns' over Gerrard/Parker from Woy. This basically means we can expect to see Henderson again, I assume, perhaps earlier in the match. I wonder if we are leading going into the last 25 or so whether he'd bring on an extra out and out midfielder and forsake Young or Welbeck? This is where having Lampard would have been handy to slot into Gerrard's role and Barry too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rixalex Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Press today seems to think we'll go with the same side as the France game but with 'concerns' over Gerrard/Parker from Woy. This basically means we can expect to see Henderson again, I assume, perhaps earlier in the match. I wonder if we are leading going into the last 25 or so whether he'd bring on an extra out and out midfielder and forsake Young or Welbeck? This is where having Lampard would have been handy to slot into Gerrard's role and Barry too. On the subject of midfielders we could do with, whilst i'm not the biggest fan of Carrick, i do think with the problems we have right now, and with him being fit, he would of been a very handy player to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abrak Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 but this is where people go wrong in thinking that 4-2-3-1 is a defensive formation, it isn't. The reason that people think that 4231 is defensive is because it is simply a modification of 442 which is defensive. (It is merely a transition of an inherently defensive formation into attack.) 4123 is a modification of 433 which is a more attacking basis for a formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevieH Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 but this is where people go wrong in thinking that 4-2-3-1 is a defensive formation, it isn't. The reason that people think that 4231 is defensive is because it is simply a modification of 442 which is defensive. (It is merely a transition of an inherently defensive formation into attack.) 4123 is a modification of 433 which is a more attacking basis for a formation. nah, it's a much smarter use of players than 4-4-2. it's a completely different system which puts totally different demands on players so isn't really a modification of anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nev Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 The Gerrard and Parker issues are a concern as Hodgson thinks they cant play 2 games in 4 days! Only problem is we dont have much else available. I dont rate Henderson, a good prospect but not good enough at this level yet. I would go with Milner Cm as he was playing near the end of his Villa days. Only problem is who to partner him. Maybe we could get a half each out of Gerrard and Parker. I would go Hart Johnson Terry Lescott Cole Walcott Milner Gerrard/Parker Ox Young Wellbeck or Hart Johnson Terry Lescott Cole Ox Milner Parker/Gerrard Young Defoe Wellbeck Keep Parker in the midfield and have Gerrard sitting behing the striker. Let Parker doing the defending and breaking up attacks, you want Gerrard staying futher forward. The problem is, as abrak said, the manager is immovable from his 442. I agree but Hodgson has came out today and said he feels that they cant play every 4 days and doesnt want to risk them getting injured! Its risk them getting injured or its risk getting knocked out, what is it with professional footballers nowadays d. o they need nursing in cotton wool. It is sad state of affairs when the England national side only has 2 or 3 decent midfielders to pick from and some very average players as back up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevieH Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 i love this by the way. this is glen johnson warming up ahead of the england team photo against france: and this is the team photo: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nev Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 i love this by the way. this is glen johnson warming up ahead of the england team photo against france: and this is the team photo: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maestro Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Was Johnson practicing the after-scoring hooray run? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abrak Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 They had Hodgson on the BBC last night. He said that all the players were fit after the match bar Martin Kelly. He is not looking to keep some of the older players fresh for the quarters on the basis that England might not get there. He is not going to change the 'system' but might change one or two players. So by all accounts Parker and Gerard are likely to play on Friday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmine Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 They had Hodgson on the BBC last night. He said that all the players were fit after the match bar Martin Kelly. He is not looking to keep some of the older players fresh for the quarters on the basis that England might not get there. He is not going to change the 'system' but might change one or two players. So by all accounts Parker and Gerard are likely to play on Friday. i think he's right not to rest them. We don't really have the quality back up to replace them and it could be argued that we would be punching above our weight if we were to get to the quarters anyway. Is the "system' the new term for sitting back to defend then hit 'em on the break? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SantiSuk Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 The Swedes will think all their Sundays have come at once if Roy has us sitting back in two rows of four saying come and get me blonde boy. They are not that good Roy, really! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRed Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 They had Hodgson on the BBC last night. He said that all the players were fit after the match bar Martin Kelly. He is not looking to keep some of the older players fresh for the quarters on the basis that England might not get there. He is not going to change the 'system' but might change one or two players. So by all accounts Parker and Gerard are likely to play on Friday. i think he's right not to rest them. We don't really have the quality back up to replace them and it could be argued that we would be punching above our weight if we were to get to the quarters anyway. Is the "system' the new term for sitting back to defend then hit 'em on the break? It is called the all new England way!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmine Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 They had Hodgson on the BBC last night. He said that all the players were fit after the match bar Martin Kelly. He is not looking to keep some of the older players fresh for the quarters on the basis that England might not get there. He is not going to change the 'system' but might change one or two players. So by all accounts Parker and Gerard are likely to play on Friday. i think he's right not to rest them. We don't really have the quality back up to replace them and it could be argued that we would be punching above our weight if we were to get to the quarters anyway. Is the "system' the new term for sitting back to defend then hit 'em on the break? It is called the all new England way!! TOTAL FOOTBALL according to Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRed Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 It is an art form defending and hitting on the break....pure poetry in motion. England are unbeatable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmine Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 It is an art form defending and hitting on the break....pure poetry in motion. England are unbeatable! I have this vision of national coaches whose side is due to face England doing their preparation watching West Brom replays! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokie36 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 It is an art form defending and hitting on the break....pure poetry in motion.England are unbeatable! I'm watching you mate... And all the rest getting ready for a frenzy....keep it up chaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rixalex Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 My my, it is negative around here, almost as negative as England's style of play! How about a bit of enthusiasm, a bit of optimism... plenty of time to take the piss out of ourselves and lament how crap we are, when we get knocked out in a couple of games time. Until then, chin up boys, we're going all the way this time. If Greece can do it, you just never know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRed Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 (edited) Who needs wazzer when we have wezzer. Sweden are next for the bored to defeat annihilation Come on you England! By the way did anybody see Alexei Llalas and Ballack arguing about England on ESPN the other night? Lalas owned him. Listen to Lalas here quality!!!!!!!!! Edited June 14, 2012 by MrRed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRed Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 My my, it is negative around here, almost as negative as England's style of play! How about a bit of enthusiasm, a bit of optimism... plenty of time to take the piss out of ourselves and lament how crap we are, when we get knocked out in a couple of games time. Until then, chin up boys, we're going all the way this time. If Greece can do it, you just never know... No negs from me i think we are the undisputed dark horses of this tournament,teams will be lucky to score against our baggy defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rixalex Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 By the way did anybody see Alexei Llalas and Ballack arguing about England on ESPN the other night? Lalas owned him. Listen to Lalas here quality!!!!!!!!! What a load of tosh from Ballack Hill. "That's not football". Yeah right, like Germany have never played the defensive game. Alexei is spot on. You play to your strengths, and you do what you have to do to get the result you want. If a team wants to park the bus, it's the other team's job to get past that bus, and if they can't, they have to look within themselves at why they failed. All too often though the reaction is to moan that in some way, it isn't fair, or it isn't right, as if attacking is a skill but defending isn't. Of course all fans want their teams to play free flowing swash buckling football, but fans aren't stupid enough to expect that if the team doesn't have the ability to do that... and most teams don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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