Preaching Holy War During Hajj

Iranian pilgrims in Mecca for the Hajj demonstrate the peaceful, tolerant nature of Islam.

Crowd: Israel is the enemy of Allah.

Man: May the hands of the infidels be chopped off.

Crowd: May the hands of the infidels be chopped off.

Man: May the hands of the infidels be chopped off.

Crowd: May the hands of the infidels be chopped off.

Man: (Chopped off) from the land of the believers.

Crowd: From the land of the believers.

Man: The Audience will now split into two groups: One group will settle the score with America, and the other will settle the score with Israel. This group now: Death to America!

Crowd: Death to America!

Man: Death to Israel!

Crowd: Death to Israel! Death to America!

Man: Death to America!

Crowd: Death to America!

Man: Death to America!

Crowd: Death to Israel! Death to America! Death to Israel!

Man: All together now: Death to America! Death to Israel!

Crowd: Death to America! Death to Israel! Death to America! Death to Israel! Death to America! Death to Israel! Death to America! Death to Israel!

Trying to imagine a group of Christians, Jews & Buddhists chanting "Death to Iran! Death to Saudi Arabia! Death to Mecca! Death to Karbala!"

Not seeing it. Must be the religion after all.

Would it be a crime against humanity if the Hajj was nuked?.

Would it be a crime against humanity if the Hajj was nuked?.

How about we set up death camps and get rid of them all? Same result, just less radioactivity. Shall we repeat what the nazis did and scapegoat a whole group of people for the actions of a few?

You'd think we'd learn but its obvious humanity is doomed to panic and jump on bandwagons.

I've never condoned the actions of terrorists or those who preach hate (from any side of the debate), but I'm disappointed when people I respect take the easy way out and make such irresponsible statements. It's easy to jump on bandwagons and say it's us against them, but this is real life and not some bloody football game. Do you have the courage to stand up for the muslims who want peace, and denounce the non-muslims who want violence?

There are people throughout the muslim world who are caught in a vice. They are being persecuted and sometimes killed by the extremists who see them as weak for not supporting their warped view of Islam. They are being painted as all supporting terrorists and worthy of incineration by people like you in the west. It's an unwinnable situation.

Still, look at Iraq. Everyday Iraqi police and soldiers who were not killed by the invading US forces are now dying at the hands of muslim insurgents. Yet these men, who are mostly muslim are still going to work everyday, trying to rebuild their messed up country and almost daily they die trying. Millions of civilians, despite threats of bombs or suicide attackers, turn up in greater numbers to vote than in some western democracies where the biggest danger at the polls is a paper cut. These are the people who are braving death to build a country, in the heart of the islamic world, that will be democratic and hopefully peaceful.

Shall we nuke them?

Boon Mee is Boon Mee and I honestly don't read most of his posts because I know what they're going to read like without opening. I know his agenda and I'm sure most others are aware of it too. Lampard, you are not Boon Mee. I've always seen you as a rational, open minded guy, and so do many others. Thats why it worries me when I see you tar a whole group of people with one brush like that, because people respect you, and what you say carries weight.

Ok, enough of my ranting.

cv

But really............could we not just have a little nuclear accident ?

Would it be a crime against humanity if the Hajj was nuked?.

Boon Mee is Boon Mee and I honestly don't read most of his posts because I know what they're going to read like without opening. I know his agenda and I'm sure most others are aware of it too.

cv

I didn't realize that honest reporting and calling a spade a spade would elicit such a 'rant'...

Of course all religions are equal. We do the same kind of death cult chanting at the Vatican...

Man: Death to Racism!

Crowd: Death to Racism!

Man: Death to Endless Drivel on Bedlam!

Crowd: Death to Endless Drivel on Bedlam!

Man: Death to Repetitive Religious Attack Threads!

Crowd: Death to Repetitive Religious Attack Threads!

Man: Death to Pointless Non-Thailand Threads!

Crowd: Death to Pointless Non-Thailand Threads!

Man: All together now: Death to Wasted Bandwith! Death to Timewasting!

Crowd: Death to Wasted Bandwith! Death to Timewasting!

Man: Death to Racism!

Crowd: Death to Racism!

Man: Death to Endless Drivel on Bedlam!

Crowd: Death to Endless Drivel on Bedlam!

Man: Death to Repetitive Religious Attack Threads!

Crowd: Death to Repetitive Religious Attack Threads!

Man: Death to Pointless Non-Thailand Threads!

Crowd: Death to Pointless Non-Thailand Threads!

Man: All together now: Death to Wasted Bandwith! Death to Timewasting!

Crowd: Death to Wasted Bandwith! Death to Timewasting!

Every minute in the world a woman is raped, and she has no one to blame but herself.”— Sheikh Feiz Muhammad

at a Town Hall meeting in Sydney...

Every minute in the world a woman is raped, and she has no one to blame but herself.”— Sheikh Feiz Muhammad

at a Town Hall meeting in Sydney...

here it is in full..

Religious extremists an insult to our values

April 14, 2005

Some disturbing views on women run counter to multiculturalism, writes Pamela Bone.

'Every minute in the world a woman is raped, and she has no one to blame but herself, for she has displayed her beauty to the whole world," Sheikh Feiz Muhammad told a packed public meeting in the Bankstown Town Hall last month. "Strapless, backless, sleeveless - they are nothing but satanical. Mini-skirts, tight jeans - all this to tease men and to appeal to (their) carnal nature."

There was pressure on Muslim women to unveil, the sheikh said, and this was because "they want you to be available for their gross, disgusting, filthy abomination! They want you to be a sex symbol!" The woman who wore the hijab was hiding her beauty from the eyes of "lustful, hungry wolves", he said.

Sheikh Feiz Muhammad teaches at the Global Islamic Youth Centre in Liverpool, NSW. His long, ranting speech, damning and ridiculing Western culture (if you allow your wife to watch the "devil" of daytime television, he advised men, you will come home from work and find she is being "negative" towards you) was greeted with frequent applause.

Somewhat more moderately, Dr Amirudin Ahamed wrote in last week's Sunday Age (10/4) that a woman who wears a short skirt and gets drunk "would definitely be at higher risk of sexual violation than, say, a sober Muslim woman at home".

What should be the response to such comments? Ignore them, remembering that in times past Italian and Greek migrants wanted to lock up their daughters too? Reflect that as the majority, non-Muslims ought to be robust enough to take criticisms of their culture in our stride? Remember too that good old Aussie-born men can hold not dissimilar views about women (a state government effort to change the culture of male team sports cited a survey that found nearly 10 per cent of young men thought it was OK to force a woman to have sex if she was wearing revealing clothing). And that feminists have traditionally railed against women as sex objects.

We are a multicultural society, and most people like it that way and want it to continue to work.There are, however, some "issues" here. Leave aside the use of a public venue to make a speech clearly derogatory towards the wider culture: at its worst the sheikh's speech can be seen as at least a justification for rape. A non-Muslim religious leader making public comments far milder than the above would be forced to resign. If a Muslim leader's words are to be simply overlooked (perhaps nothing better can be expected?) is this itself not a kind of racism?

My first conclusion is that multiculturalism is valuable and worth protecting. We are, irrevocably, a multicultural society, and most people like it that way and want it to continue to work. There is also, despite some disgraceful attacks on mosques and on individuals, a lot of goodwill towards Muslims. There are many Muslim leaders who are preaching moderation, and who would likely be embarrassed by the sheikh's speech. We want a society in which people of all religions and cultures can get on together. But there also have to be some core values, and - notwithstanding the views of a minority of unreconstructed football players - one of those values is the equality of women.

The second is that laws against religious vilification are a mistake. Yes, laws against racial hatred, because no one has any choice about their race. But unless we are to accept that human beings are incapable of overcoming their social conditioning, we do have a choice about what we believe. Beliefs are about ideas, and ideas must be open to debate, to criticism and even ridicule. We are entitled to find some beliefs of any religion absurd and to say that we do.

The third conclusion is that Feiz Muhammad and Ahamed are simply wrong. There is no evidence that women in societies where they are forced to cover are less subject to violence, sexual or otherwise. There may be less reporting of rape (when the word of four honest Muslim men is required to prove the rape and if it is not proved the woman is then liable to be punished for adultery, it is rather less likely to be reported); but there is overwhelming evidence across the Muslim world of violence against women, in the form of honour killings, stonings, or beatings for minor infringements of religious codes.

The home, where Ahamed claims Muslim women are safe, is exactly where women in any society are most likely to be assaulted. But a British study of family violence (reported by Geraldine Brooks in her book about Islamic women, Nine Parts of Desire) found that women married to men of Muslim background were eight times more likely to be killed by their husbands than any other women in Britain.

What is really angering the fundamentalists is that Muslim women not only in the West but across the Muslim world are coming out, challenging male interpretations of their religion, demanding an end to their oppression.

Yes, these women are still a minority, and they have a far harder struggle ahead of them than Western feminists ever did; but they are making gains (Morocco has brought in family law reforms; in Saudi Arabia it has just been announced that women may apply for driving licences).

The argument of some moderate Muslims and well-meaning cultural relativists is that non-Muslim feminists have no business criticising the treatment of Muslim women, and that any change must come from within. As Emma Bonino, a member of the European Parliament, said recently: "I remember how important it was for those of us fighting for basic rights and equality in Italy to receive support from women in other European countries who were further ahead in the same fight."

Of course all religions are equal.

correct

Would it be a crime against humanity if the Hajj was nuked?.

How about we set up death camps and get rid of them all? Same result, just less radioactivity. Shall we repeat what the nazis did and scapegoat a whole group of people for the actions of a few?

You'd think we'd learn but its obvious humanity is doomed to panic and jump on bandwagons.

I've never condoned the actions of terrorists or those who preach hate (from any side of the debate), but I'm disappointed when people I respect take the easy way out and make such irresponsible statements. It's easy to jump on bandwagons and say it's us against them, but this is real life and not some bloody football game. Do you have the courage to stand up for the muslims who want peace, and denounce the non-muslims who want violence?

There are people throughout the muslim world who are caught in a vice. They are being persecuted and sometimes killed by the extremists who see them as weak for not supporting their warped view of Islam. They are being painted as all supporting terrorists and worthy of incineration by people like you in the west. It's an unwinnable situation.

Still, look at Iraq. Everyday Iraqi police and soldiers who were not killed by the invading US forces are now dying at the hands of muslim insurgents. Yet these men, who are mostly muslim are still going to work everyday, trying to rebuild their messed up country and almost daily they die trying. Millions of civilians, despite threats of bombs or suicide attackers, turn up in greater numbers to vote than in some western democracies where the biggest danger at the polls is a paper cut. These are the people who are braving death to build a country, in the heart of the islamic world, that will be democratic and hopefully peaceful.

Shall we nuke them?

Boon Mee is Boon Mee and I honestly don't read most of his posts because I know what they're going to read like without opening. I know his agenda and I'm sure most others are aware of it too. Lampard, you are not Boon Mee. I've always seen you as a rational, open minded guy, and so do many others. Thats why it worries me when I see you tar a whole group of people with one brush like that, because people respect you, and what you say carries weight.

Ok, enough of my ranting.

cv

Come off it Vic; you should know that was a tongue-in-cheek piece. It was meant to outline the whole stupidity of the thing." Would it be a crime against humanity is the Hajj was nuked?" I did not for one instance say I would like to nuke the Hajj. The muslim population did not think it a crime against humanity when the US atrocities were carried out. How many Muslims perished in the twin towers? Did the muslims care? Just remember one thing though. The Koran preaches hatred. The good muslims are the ones we should worry about. It's the bad muslims that are no threat. Religion is a terrible thing whatever credo you follow. There has been more killing, violence, hate over religion than any other reason since the World suddenly thought " Lets have a God"

P.S. Do I lose my upstanding member award now?

Would it be a crime against humanity if the Hajj was nuked?.

How about we set up death camps and get rid of them all? Same result, just less radioactivity. Shall we repeat what the nazis did and scapegoat a whole group of people for the actions of a few?

You'd think we'd learn but its obvious humanity is doomed to panic and jump on bandwagons.

I've never condoned the actions of terrorists or those who preach hate (from any side of the debate), but I'm disappointed when people I respect take the easy way out and make such irresponsible statements. It's easy to jump on bandwagons and say it's us against them, but this is real life and not some bloody football game. Do you have the courage to stand up for the muslims who want peace, and denounce the non-muslims who want violence?

There are people throughout the muslim world who are caught in a vice. They are being persecuted and sometimes killed by the extremists who see them as weak for not supporting their warped view of Islam. They are being painted as all supporting terrorists and worthy of incineration by people like you in the west. It's an unwinnable situation.

Still, look at Iraq. Everyday Iraqi police and soldiers who were not killed by the invading US forces are now dying at the hands of muslim insurgents. Yet these men, who are mostly muslim are still going to work everyday, trying to rebuild their messed up country and almost daily they die trying. Millions of civilians, despite threats of bombs or suicide attackers, turn up in greater numbers to vote than in some western democracies where the biggest danger at the polls is a paper cut. These are the people who are braving death to build a country, in the heart of the islamic world, that will be democratic and hopefully peaceful.

Shall we nuke them?

Boon Mee is Boon Mee and I honestly don't read most of his posts because I know what they're going to read like without opening. I know his agenda and I'm sure most others are aware of it too. Lampard, you are not Boon Mee. I've always seen you as a rational, open minded guy, and so do many others. Thats why it worries me when I see you tar a whole group of people with one brush like that, because people respect you, and what you say carries weight.

Ok, enough of my ranting.

cv

P.S. Do I lose my upstanding member award now?

Whadaya bet he's still mad at you no matter what!

Would it be a crime against humanity if the Hajj was nuked?.

Only if they missed.

Thing is, you're never going to beat fanatics into submission with western firepower BM. Fearless (and clueless) George dubya has yet to figure that one out. He's created the highest deficit in history and that's probably going to be the republicans undoing (once joe avg Amurican wakes up from a stupor of spoon fed republican fear mongering)

Majority muslims will eventually attack the fanatics who are hijacking their religion on their own. THEN if they ask for help, h3ll yeah, let's jump in! Meantime, Bush is alienating those who might be allies on the ground by appearing as the unwelcome aggressor.

In Pakistan for example alot of muslims have had a belly full of fanatics blowing up their schools, murdering children, women, the lot and are starting to march in the streets, demanding the lunatics <deleted> right off. Sharia law is starting to modernise in favour of justice (slowly) and that's great also. Great to see demonstrations like this last week on world wide television and hope there'll be more to come, eventually in every muslim nation.

Ok, if that doesn't work, open free trade with them all, no tarrifs- 7 Elevens will flood every street corner, along with Mc D's and the rest. Pretty soon, your avg arab will be more concerned with getting the latest mobile phone than listening to some mad hatter Iman preaching venom (lesser of two evils)

Well, the reality is that the vast majority of terrorism around the world is committed by Muslims. They are involved in almost every armed conflict in the world, against Jews, Christians, atheists, and even other Muslims. The more this continues, the more the "nuke 'em" view will prevail. At some point, it will become a majority view. At that time, we might be looking at pogroms and wholesale use of WMDs against Muslims and Muslim nations. It will be an absolute slaughter.

I'm not advocating this. In fact, I oppose use of nukes and other WMDs, I'm just saying that it is a reality that we face.

Scary times. Too bad most Muslims in the ME (and many elsewhere) are so mislead and deluded that they have no idea this is coming. If they did, some of them might start taking real action to prevent it, namely reconciling some form of Islam with the modern world. That might take MAJOR revision and infighting within Islam, but the only other option will be far worse for them -- and for us for that matter.

Then again, perhaps we have it all wrong, "Death to America" and Death to "Israel" are just the names of the soccer teams? They are starting a game of soccer, and cheering their teams?

And there it is then BM, ultimately a war of civilisations...(?)

I'd still agree with Vic that it's dangerous to tar and feather muslims with the same brush. If you met my ex GF who comes from a muslim family, you'd see a terrific person, super family and down at her family's mosque, they take a very similar view of fanatics as you or me. My Dad's been married to an amazing muslim lady for almost 14 years now and believe me, you'd love her. Simplistic? I guess but point being, we ought to be very carefull how some 'brand' an entire people. That to me, is simplistic and downright scary depending on how deeply one feels that way (eg, don't think some here meant any harm).

Bottom line, the silent majority of muslims have to take back their religion from the fanatics and the so called western coalition has to get out (one will never happen without the other tho) or I fear what you say (being a barometer of the "right") we're ultimately heading for a war of civilisations

Somewhat more moderately, Dr Amirudin Ahamed wrote in last week's Sunday Age (10/4) that a woman who wears a short skirt and gets drunk "would definitely be at higher risk of sexual violation than, say, a sober Muslim woman at home".

Yeah right, and if a Muslim woman dies after denying her husband sex, she's definitely going to hel_l, not to mention that he can beat her after 3 refusals.

Yeah right, and if a Muslim woman dies after denying her husband sex, she's definitely going to hel_l, not to mention that he can beat her after 3 refusals.

and in a predominately buddhist country

Such penetration by a man against his lawfully wedded wife against her will is not rape under existing law

.. and I would say in the majority of cases refusal would lead to violence.

racist and sexist attitudes along with blind religious faith - people absolving themselves of their responsibility to think for themselves and societies not teaching people to question and think about their responses to others. so it spirals onwards

the problem with democracy - stupid people , masses and masses of stupid people.

Thing is, you're never going to beat fanatics into submission with western firepower BM.

It worked with Ghadafi. Reagan b*mbed the sh*t out of him, effectively beating him into submission. Twenty years later, he is trying to play nice with the rest of the world.

It also worked to a point with Arafat. The Israeli's basically bulldozed him into submission by keeping him in solitude in a compound shut off from the outside.

The point is more than anything these fanatics are bullies. The only way to show a bully who is boss is to hit him over the head with a bigger stick.

This is the reason that Iran wants the b*mb, to be able to hold it over the heads of everyone in the region.

People would like to think that America is a bully, but this is far from the case. America ends of being the world's policeman because the UN doesn't have the stones to do the job that everyone thinks they should do.

And well regardless, I don't know who is kidding whom, but there is no way Israel is going to sit idly and watch this happen in Iran. They will be patient and let normal channels run their course. But if nothing happens after a point, they will fly in, bomb anything they feel is a threat, and no one will stop them.

Preaching Holy War During Hajj

Iranian pilgrims in Mecca for the Hajj demonstrate the peaceful, tolerant nature of Islam.

It is also worth keeping in mind that even though this is a large gathering of fundamentalists, it does not represent the majority Muslim population.

Case in point a recent speech by Jordan's King Abudullah:

Excerpts here: http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050922-120909-9902r.htm

Full speech here: http://www.voanews.com/uspolicy/archive/20...FTOKEN=47418359

The Devil & Throwing Stones

According to MSNBC, about 50 people (numbers are off here) died in Saudi Arabia during the annual ritual of throwing stones at the devil. Apparently a stampede broke out when somebody tripped on luggage. That sounds like a poorly conceived punch line, but it actually happened. And it isn’t the first time. In 1990, 1,426 people died in a stampede while throwing stones at the very same devil. (No word as to whether luggage was involved.) And in 2004, the devil killed another 244 stone-throwers the same way. By my count, the score is Devil 1,720 and Believers 0.

This is on the same day that the guy who shot John Paul II was freed. Clearly, the devil is having a good day.

I think it’s interesting that when you pray to God for a new bike, it hardly ever materializes in your bedroom within seconds. But when you throw stones at the devil, quite often you get an immediate response. That’s an example of good customer service

Sheep are easily led.

There were several on my flight at the weekend, clutching their plastic

10 litre bottles of Saudi (holy?) water.

The Koran preaches hatred.

It preaches hate as much as the Bibel and the Torrah...

Well, the liberal mind is a peculiar thing. Devoid of all common sense and running on pure emotion. There are basically two kinds of liberal moonbats these days.

The benign liberal: The anti war fool that sincerely believes that all of humanity is good and kind if only we could sit down to resolve our differences.

The malignant liberal: A much more dangerous fool. These are the Trotsyites and Leninists. They feel in their own minds, that they know what is best for humanity. The US malignant libs care nothing for the US and would silently cheer another terror attack and use that attack to advance their socialist adgenda.

Possibly you realize the danger radical Islam is to us and the rest of civilized society but will do nothing to thwart it's advance. Indeed, some folks will do everything in their power to stop the Bush from protecting the US but will then scream like stuck pigs when we're attacked again and use that attack to further advance their dysfuctioal cause...

Well, the rascist mind is a peculiar thing. Devoid of all common sense and running on pure hatred.

Well, the rascist mind is a peculiar thing. Devoid of all common sense and running on pure hatred.

Yep...there we go.

Run out of objective thought and they throw out the "R" word!

Like you and the US-warped L-word.

Well, the rascist mind is a peculiar thing. Devoid of all common sense and running on pure hatred.

Case in point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_President

"To be eligible to run for president the Council proclaims the following qualifications be met:

Be a Muslim"

Therefore based upon your premise, the entire Iranian government and country is racist and running on pure hated, because it specificallyy discriminates against all non-Muslims.

The racist mind is not peculiar at all. It is in fact one of the most clearly and easily understood things in modern society. Unfortunately it is also one of the most difficult to get rid of.

Also, a bit on their nutcase president:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/wor...ahmadinejad.htm

For TAWP: Please note the middle bits about associations with the '79 US Embassy invasion, involvement in political and cultural assassinations, religous wacko fundamentalism, etc. This is not a guy who is going to bring peace and stability to the region.