Question About Visa Overstay Enforcement And Hotels

[David48]

... I'll pass on spending a single baht while Im there. Thailand for Thais after all, so Thai problems (poverty, a wilting middle class, insipid immigration policies, draconian and hostile foreign policy, business regulations that couldnt survive on childrens playgrounds, and a legal system more concerned with bleeding farangs than addressing a culture of systemic corruption and graft) get Thai solutions (hilariously ham fisted attempts at cutting wit on internet forums).

... Why I believe I'd even turn this contract over to a competent, seasoned Thai database architect, if only we could find one.

Regards.

On the thread you have had some of the best free advice from some of the longest standing and highest quality members and moderators here ... yet you found it still possible to try and totally denigrate Thailand as it exists in your conscientious.

I know that Thailand should be humbled and privileged to have someone of such eminent standing come raise them from the quagmire in which they live ... but somehow I think they won't ...

.

[12DrinkMore]

From the OP:

...Im simply looking for frank, informed opinions on my risk...

Question: do hotels alert the authorities when a guest overstays his visa?

Answer: No. They comply with regulatory requirements to notify immigration of your arrival and that's the end of it for the hotel.

Question: Do [hotels] check visas every month for a guest who extends his trip?

Answer: No.

Risk: Without a visa, eg a tourist visa, the airline may deny you boarding in the USA unless you have a flight ticket out of Thailand within 30 days from your arrival. Visas can be applied for by mail from one of the many Thai consulates in the USA; minimal documents required, ie little "bureaucracy" and practically no time spent on the application. If you do manage to board without a visa and overstay, you risk arrest, detention, a fine, and deportation if a random police check should reveal your overstay.

Risk: Without a work permit, the application for which involves some "bureaucracy", to be dealt with mostly by your Thai "client", ie employer, you risk, arrest, detention, a fine, and deportation if the fact that your are working without a work permit comes to the attention of immigration or the Department of Employment.

Risk: If an official asks to see the passport before he gets to the airport and he's on overstay, he could be chucked into jail and deported.

The OP seems to have a bit of an "attitude" issue too, so the chances are higher than someone who quietly comes and quietly goes. "Attitudes" don't go down too well in Thailand. It would be interesting to listen to the discussion in the immigration office and see how the officials react if he came out with any of that drivel.

" Thailand for Thais after all, so Thai problems (poverty, a wilting middle class, insipid immigration policies, draconian and hostile foreign policy, business regulations that couldnt survive on childrens playgrounds, and a legal system more concerned with bleeding farangs than addressing a culture of systemic corruption and graft) get Thai solutions (hilariously ham fisted attempts at cutting wit on internet forums)."

But I suspect a is lurking

[BWPattaya]

Why not get a 60 day tourist visa from a Thai embassy or consulate in your current location before you go?

Not sure where you are flying from but from countries such as the US, UK, and Australia if you arrive at the airport with no visa and your RT return is over 30 days out, you may not be boarded.

It sounds like you will be working in Thailand illegally without a work permit. Not judging, just saying as you should be aware of what you intend to do. In other words, as far as the powers that be in Thailand are concerned, they would be much happier if you WERE coming here to leer at girls!

Hotels report their foreign guests daily to immigration.

Do hotels really report every guest, everyday to immigration, thats a new one on me. How do they do it, does an immigration officer come to the premises, or does a member of staff visit immigration with a list of guests, maybe by phone,or even emai? lthats a lot of work for immigration.

Hotels and guesthouses are compelled to advise Immigration who is in their premises. (In fact, legally, even going to a friend's house up-country should be reported but no-one bothers with that). The hotel/guesthouse etc can do it by logging into the Immigration web site's database. They have their own username and password to enable them to do it. The upshot of this is that obviously Immigration could easily trace people on overstay in hotels. Renting a small room somewhere is a bit different.

So, what happens if Immigration notice and go to your hotel room and see that you are working?

Best advice has already been given, get a 60 Day visa.

[BWPattaya]

Youre absolutely right Patrick. I'll pass on spending a single baht while Im there. Thailand for Thais after all, so Thai problems (poverty, a wilting middle class, insipid immigration policies, draconian and hostile foreign policy, business regulations that couldnt survive on childrens playgrounds, and a legal system more concerned with bleeding farangs than addressing a culture of systemic corruption and graft) get Thai solutions (hilariously ham fisted attempts at cutting wit on internet forums).

You've opened my eyes Patrick. Why I believe I'd even turn this contract over to a competent, seasoned Thai database architect, if only we could find one.

Regards.

I have just re-read your posts and wonder what you really want to know. You intend to come here, deliberately overstay your visa and work illegally. You then make criticisms of the Thai people and the laws because you can't do what you want.

If the boot was on the other foot I wonder what you would be saying. If a Thai, or any other nationality, went to the US with a one month visa and intended to overstay and work illegally you would be crying out about it.

[Arkady]

Coming to Thailand to travel, drink, party and leer at girls on a transit or tourist visa is perfectly legal but working is not. You require a non-immigrant visa B and a work permit. You need to obtain a letter from your employer to get the non-immigrant B visa from a Thai consulate and your employer needs to apply for a temporary work permit for you. A friend of mine once learned this to his cost when he came to do a month's consulting work in Bangkok. He arrived on a Friday and a the client took him and his colleague to the office straight from the airport to show him where he would be working on Monday before planning to send them to their hotel. They never made it to the hotel because a disgruntled Thai employee had already alerted Immigration that two farangs were arriving to work illegally and take work away from Thais. The Immigration police arrived on time and arrested them in the office. They were informed that for US$1,000 in cash unreceipted Immigration would not insist on detention while awaiting their court appearance. Otherwise they would be detained till Monday when official bail could be arranged. The Thai employer, realising that he was not going to get any benefit from these guys, suddenly lost interest in them and refused to pay up. So they were on their own and decided to tough it out to save the $1,000. However, when they saw the pitiful plight of the prisoners in the concentration camp conditions at the Immigration jail at Soi Suan Plu which is standing room only and rife with disease and malnutrition, they changed their minds immediately and coughed up the money. The next week they appeared in court and were fined Bt 30,000 each and deported. Instead of making a bit of money on a consulting project they ended up out of pocket by US$2,000 and with criminal records in Thailand!

Overstaying a tourist or transit visa subjects you to a daily fine of Bt 200 day, if you make it to the airport. If you don't make it to the airport but get picked up in a random police check instead, you will be detained at the Immigration jail for a few days and then deported after paying the same fine.

Welcome to Thailand.

[lopburi3]

Actually the over-stay fine has been 500 baht per day for a few years now. But is still capped at 20,000 baht.

[Tep]

Taking the OP at his word, I assume that he has specialist skills that are in high demand. He has also indicated his priorities and what disincentives would keep him away from this job. I think this is entirely reasonable. I would assume that the OP has many alternatives in terms of taking his skills elsewhere and so Thailand or his client may miss out on an opportunity to benefit from these skills. I have seen this many times. There is much competition for high quality skills around the world and those places with better regulatory environments will attract these people. Many of the features that have attracted some of the posters on this thread to visit or stay in Thailand clearly don't appeal to the OP. I really believe that not attracting such people is a backwards move.

If the OP is still bothering to read this thread, his question has been adequately answered and a visa from a Thai Embassy or Consulate would appear to be sufficient. I didn't notice any information about the structure of the engagement, as an individual or through a company etc but if the payment is being made outside Thailand then I would assume a Non Imm B would be ok.

[Arkady]

Actually the over-stay fine has been 500 baht per day for a few years now. But is still capped at 20,000 baht.

Thanks for the update. I still remember it being Bt 100. It's odd that they haven't increased the cap pro-rata. Bt 20,000 is pretty good deal for long overstayers, as long as they don't get randomly caught before going to the airport. Bt 50,000 might make them think twice.

[lopburi3]

I suspect 50k would require more to remain in limbo or be placed in jail rather than being allowed exit (fine must be paid and if no cash you go to jail to pay back 200 baht per day of jail time I believe). Probably not cost effective to crowd the jails in that case.

[lubbkis]

Sounds like your client has sold some complex software (DB/ERP?) to a Thai company and they want it up and running yesterday. Typical - but they need to rework their costs. Don't let them incite you into running the risk of spending a single night in Thai detention. You need to be on the ground with business analysts from the end-user. Maybe they could go to the US. Maybe you could all meet up in a business friendly city like HK, Singapore or maybe even Siem Reap.

Don't be a patsy for stingy business. There are plenty of talented Thai software engineers etc. Mostly the have Masters from the UK and Australia. Mostly, they are not working in Thailand often.

[TinoThailand]

If I wer you, and I know I will not have much time; I would get a 60 day visa before enter.

How ever, you can pay 500 Baht a "overstay" day up to 20 days without any problems.

The maximum is 20.000 Baht, but the problems start over 20 days: blacklist, deportation, detention...

If you can't get money when its to late you're in trouble.

[TinoThailand]

Actually the over-stay fine has been 500 baht per day for a few years now. But is still capped at 20,000 baht.

Indeed! But after 20 over-stay days it might get ugly. So if someone thinks to stay a year or two and just have 20.000 ready to pay when take off. Maybe in the past, and travel back, but now you might get on a black-list.

[lopburi3]

Have not seen any confirmed blacklisting for simple overstay when fine is paid. The serious problems seem to be when fine can not be paid from my understanding and suspect that is what you mean with can't get money comment?

[FritsSikkink]

Huh! I wasnt aware a 60 day visa was even available from the US. Last time I was there, I thought 30 day was max, anything further required trips to embassies, or visa runs. That would certainly solve a lot of problems!

Btw JT, my budget for getting clothes made on Sukhumvit is something in the neighborhood of low six figures a month, the Thai government should want me to stick around as long as possible

I think that if you have time to go clothes shopping you should also find time in your self-important and busy work schedule to take care of irritating matters such as obeying the Immigration Laws.

Patrick

Youre absolutely right Patrick. I'll pass on spending a single baht while Im there. Thailand for Thais after all, so Thai problems (poverty, a wilting middle class, insipid immigration policies, draconian and hostile foreign policy, business regulations that couldnt survive on childrens playgrounds, and a legal system more concerned with bleeding farangs than addressing a culture of systemic corruption and graft) get Thai solutions (hilariously ham fisted attempts at cutting wit on internet forums).

You've opened my eyes Patrick. Why I believe I'd even turn this contract over to a competent, seasoned Thai database architect, if only we could find one.

Regards.

You can spend all you want but why is it so difficult to comply to immigration laws?

That you can't find a good Thai DBA doesn't mean there are none so that is no excuse.

[misterme]

I have a small hotel. If you do not have a valid visa, you cannot check in.

If I know that you have extended your stay, I will invite you to check out. With very few problems over the last several years, I isolated the common factor among the incidents and every major problem involved someone on an overstay. Since my new policy, the number of problems has all but vanished.

If the original poster stays in his hotel and doesn't move from place to place, it's possible that they will go undetected. But, I would suggest that if they do know that he may be looking for another place to stay. It's not about the law, it's about minimizing risk.

For sure I do agree with the common theme that he should just go get his visa sorted out. Anything less is supporting a mindset that I have no urge to pamper.

[lopburi3]

If I know that you have extended your stay, I will invite you to check out.

Suspect the above is just a poor choice of words as "extending your stay" is the proper and legal way to stay in Thailand. Believe you mean "overstayed"?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The 3 farangs got 3,000, 5,000 and 10,000 baht fines which depended on the amount of time they had overstayed. Only one of them has the money to pay so it is off to Pathumthani Prison for a short stay for the other 2!

One member advised above not to worry too much about overstays because it just means paying a fine at the airport.... That's not the full story, unfortunately.

If a person on overstay gets to the airport unhindered, then yes, that's likely the case. Pay fine and depart.

But if that same person on overstay happens to have any encounter with the police before making it to the airport (say being stopped while out and around town), then it likely means being taken into custody and going thru a detention process similar to what BadBanker described above. That's not something anyone with any sense would want to risk.

To the OP, if your work involves pretty much keeping to yourself and not interacting with Thai businesses here, then the work permit risk is pretty low. But if you will be actively interacting with a or some Thai businesses, then I'd change that calculation.

Either way, the risk of getting stopped by police for some misc. thing while on overstay is probably a greater one and the bigger issue to be concerned about avoiding.

[CantSpell]

Just for the sake of information, hotels (at least the one compliant with the laws) do report on a daily basis all foreigners data as follow:

- Name, sex, nationality and check-in date.

- Passport number and date of issue

- Type of Visa and visa expiration date, point of entry and departure card number...

This is sent daily by fax or email so immigration could come to the hotels to check on guests overstaying (doubt they ever do).

Hotels will not really check visa expiration during the stay but should not allow to check-in if the visa is expired already.

Concerning the OP, looks like someone wanting to make some fast cash on a 1 month mission and not caring much about Thailand. Shame.

[phl]

Why not get a 60 day tourist visa from a Thai embassy or consulate in your current location before you go?

Not sure where you are flying from but from countries such as the US, UK, and Australia if you arrive at the airport with no visa and your RT return is over 30 days out, you may not be boarded.

It sounds like you will be working in Thailand illegally without a work permit. Not judging, just saying as you should be aware of what you intend to do. In other words, as far as the powers that be in Thailand are concerned, they would be much happier if you WERE coming here to leer at girls!

Hotels report their foreign guests daily to immigration.

Do hotels really report every guest, everyday to immigration, thats a new one on me. How do they do it, does an immigration officer come to the premises, or does a member of staff visit immigration with a list of guests, maybe by phone,or even emai? lthats a lot of work for immigration.

Yes hotel must report to immigration every single guest.

How its done? i can not believe you even ask this kind of question

Its done either on line by filling in the form or manually by going to the immigration office and handing over the paperwork.

Hotels DONOT need to update the info every month, nor do they need to check for the visa again.

Immigration does not check every single report and does not have a system to cross check for over stays.

However should by some reason your name come up, they will trace your location through hotel notification of foreigner system.

With bigger hotels, they do not report every single person, because it takes too much time, but will do 10 or so people everyday.

[Dork]

Regarding checking into hotels in Thailand, I'm not wanting to continue the war of words about what is legal/illegal and what the obligations of hoteliers are when checking in a foreigner, but in reality my experience says that you don't need a passport to check in to a hotel.

I travel within Thailand regularly as part of my business. I never carry either my passport or work permit because it is at best impractical and at worst impossible to do so. I have no problems whatsoever either flying or checking into hotels (whether 3, 4 or 5 star) using some other kind of photo ID. The reception clerk will usually ask me for my passport and credit card. I simply hand over a credit card & the other ID and that's it - no problems at all - not ever.

Usually I would have access to a copy of my passport but I'm never asked for it.

[phl]

Regarding checking into hotels in Thailand, I'm not wanting to continue the war of words about what is legal/illegal and what the obligations of hoteliers are when checking in a foreigner, but in reality my experience says that you don't need a passport to check in to a hotel.

I travel within Thailand regularly as part of my business. I never carry either my passport or work permit because it is at best impractical and at worst impossible to do so. I have no problems whatsoever either flying or checking into hotels (whether 3, 4 or 5 star) using some other kind of photo ID. The reception clerk will usually ask me for my passport and credit card. I simply hand over a credit card & the other ID and that's it - no problems at all - not ever.

Usually I would have access to a copy of my passport but I'm never asked for it.

you would be the first

[ubonjoe]

Actually the over-stay fine has been 500 baht per day for a few years now. But is still capped at 20,000 baht.

Thanks for the update. I still remember it being Bt 100. It's odd that they haven't increased the cap pro-rata. Bt 20,000 is pretty good deal for long overstayers, as long as they don't get randomly caught before going to the airport. Bt 50,000 might make them think twice.

The 20,000 baht fine is part of the immigration act written in 1979 which not been amended or replaced.

I think 100,000 baht would be an even better amount to discourage those that overstay because it's cheaper than flying home to get a new visa. The daily fine could be set at a max of 1000 baht but could start out at the current 500 baht for a period of time.

[Arkady]

the Thai government should want me to stick around as long as possible

No because you are working without a workpermit and when they find out you will be deported

They will want you to stick around until you can pay your fine and and the undiscounted price of the next flight home with a "Deported" stamp in your passport.

[Arkady]

BB

Why the hoosegow at Pathum Thani rather than the IDC at Suan Plu?

Mac

THey have not paid a court fine. When they are released they go to the IDC.

That is correct. They serve a day in Pathum Thani for every Bt 200 of unpaid fine up to a maximum of 100 days for the maximum Bt 20,000 fine. Then they go to the IDC in Soi Suan Plu for as long as it takes for some one to wire the cost of the air ticket home. Some people have apparently been there for years.

[NancyL]

If someone is giving the receptionist a Thai drivers license as I.D., then the person's nationality and passport number are part of the I.D. number on the TDL.

However, it wouldn't contain info about visa status, date of issue of passport, or even if the passport number is current. You get a new passport number with each new passport (at least for U.S. nationals), but you don't have to change your driver's license to reflect the new passport number.

I must admit that several times my husband and I have stayed in hotels and resorts in Thailand and never been asked for I.D. In every case, we were the only foreigners in a group, traveling with several van-loads of upper-class Thai people staying at a resort for a wedding or a meeting. We're always asked for our passport when we check into a hotel/resort by ourselves.

[phl]

If someone is giving the receptionist a Thai drivers license as I.D., then the person's nationality and passport number are part of the I.D. number on the TDL.

However, it wouldn't contain info about visa status, date of issue of passport, or even if the passport number is current. You get a new passport number with each new passport (at least for U.S. nationals), but you don't have to change your driver's license to reflect the new passport number.

I must admit that several times my husband and I have stayed in hotels and resorts in Thailand and never been asked for I.D. In every case, we were the only foreigners in a group, traveling with several van-loads of upper-class Thai people staying at a resort for a wedding or a meeting. We're always asked for our passport when we check into a hotel/resort by ourselves.

immigration requires passport number, full name, date of arrival, visa type, arrival card number, date of visa expiry and point of entry, so having just the passport number is not sufficient

again though they do not cross reference it, it is ONLY used to track peoples where abouts if the question is raised

[jojothai]

Tino

Where do u get the 20 days?

it only has to be 1 day.

People have been thrown in Jail and later deported for only a few days.

Bit extreme, but it happens.

I just overstayed a few days unintentionally, and was going to go to Ranong (overstay office at pier) for Myanmar.

When I read the history of somethings that happened there, I wouldnt think that I can trust anybody near the place, so thought better to go somewhere else. - and did so.

For blacklisting, does it relate to the stamps you get?

Overstay is stamped in the passport and presumably logged on the IT records.

Heard some rumours that if you get stamped more than twice you might not be let back in.

Anybody know if there is any truth to this. Any governing regulations we should know?

Jojo

If I wer you, and I know I will not have much time; I would get a 60 day visa before enter.

How ever, you can pay 500 Baht a "overstay" day up to 20 days without any problems.

The maximum is 20.000 Baht, but the problems start over 20 days: blacklist, deportation, detention...

If you can't get money when its to late you're in trouble.

[lopburi3]

One flame of total nonsense removed.

[Badbanker]

I have seen people who got into legal trouble and had overstayed 4 days, get deported and I have seen people who have lived on the streets of Bangkok quietly for 5 years get turned away from police stations when they ask to be arrested.

Bit of an update on the overstay issue. 10k baht is the most a judge can give you for overstaying and I have personally seen it given for a 10 year overstay, a 4 year overstay and a 6 months overstay! Different judges, different cases, and different logic behind the sentencing.

Normally for a 10k overstay I have seen the judges give in their judgment a 10k baht in lieu of a 40 day detention if you do not have the money to pay. I think this is the max they can give!

Technically as Arkady pointed out it is 200 baht deducted for every day served in jail for small fines but for the 5-10k range the judge will give you a lesser sentence.

Pathumthani is the jail that you are sent to as it is set up for short term detentions, where as Klong Prem is setup for up to an 8 year regime and Bang Kwang is for over 8 years!

People in the know say that Pathumthani is a jail but not as bad as some of the others

Sadly their is no blacklisting in place for people who have just been deported after overstaying, although it has been discussed at higher levels for some time now.

The most recent idea proffered by immigration is that if you are arrested and convicted in a court for overstaying, it is basically on the same level as working without a work permit, something that many people are convicted of and fined a small amount and then deported and blacklisted for 5 years.

People who voluntarily surrender to immigration or voluntarily deport themselves will not be blacklisted but if you are arrested for overstay it is being discussed as an option.