Army Denies Troops Involved In Red-Shirt Crackdown Had Sniper Rifles

[webfact]

Army denies troops involved in red-shirt crackdown had sniper rifles

THE NATION

BANGKOK: -- The Army spokesman yesterday denied that troops deployed to the crack down on red-shirt protesters were armed with sniper rifles.

Col Sansern Kaewkamnerd, the Army spokesman, said troops were only using M16 assault rifles equipped with a telescope to monitor the situation.

Sansern was reacting to a comment by Pol Col Prawet Moonpramuk, deputy director-general of the Department of Special Investigation. Prawet has displayed a picture of troops captured from a video clip, saying he would summon the troops with sniper rifles to testify.

Sansern also complained that the Army had handed over evidence to the DSI proving that men in black were the ones who fired at troops and demonstrators.

He said the men in black and others with malicious intent mingled with the demonstrators to attack troops and the people, so troops had to assign some of them to be guards armed with M16 riles with telescopes to watch out and monitor the moves.

Sansern asked Prawet to interrogate DSI Director-General Tharit Pengdit about the operations of troops during the red-shirt protests because Tharit was on the Centre for Resolutions under Emergency Situation. Sansern said Tharit was present when the CRES held meetings and made decisions on how to deploy troops to control the situation.

Sansern said police and the DSI had always ignored evidence handed over by the Army. He cited the case of a firing on an Army helicopter on April 10, 2010 as an example. He said three suspects were arrested with M16 and AK-47 assault riles and more than 1,000 rounds of ammunition but the court acquitted them on grounds of lack of evidence although the Army had submitted documents and evidence to investigators.

Sansern wondered why investigators did not use the evidence to file charges.

The Army spokesman also complained that the DSI was dragging its feet in the cases of attacks on troops but was speeding up the cases where troops were suspects.

He said the Army had provided details of a white van, used by men in black, to investigators but so far no arrests have been made related to the van.

Meanwhile, Deputy Agriculture Minister Natthawut Saikua, a red-shirt leader, said he believed former prime minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and former deputy prime minister Suthep Thaugsuban would be summoned this month for questioning over their alleged orders for troops to fire at the people.

-- The Nation 2012-08-18

[waza]

Seems a case of if your red your alright but if your not your not, unless you agree to the amnesty bill. I think there may be a bit of political interference in the judicial process here, Red democracy in action.

Edited August 18, 2012 by waza

[dru2]

I'm not a natural supporter of monarchies or elites. I consider myself a socialist. But I have just watched - 30 minutes ago - a one hour Al Jazeera programme by Veronica Pedrosa on the proliferation of clan and gangster dominated politics in the Philippines (her country) from the time of Ferdinand and Imelda Marcos to the recent Ampatuan massacre in Mindanao, where a Muslim insurgency not entirely unlike that in southern Thailand continues to smoulder.

Now I see that the terrorist and thug Natthawut, servant of Thaksin and of his own self-seeking ends, is throwing his unelected weight around in Thai politics yet again.

During the Al Jazeera programme a courageous Filipino journalist says of Imelda Marcos: "let's face it - she's a thief who was married to a murderer, thug and tyrant". Who does that make you think of in Dubai? And Natthawut is a shoe-in for the vicious thugs of the Ampatuan clan in Maguindanao. If you doubt this, just look at the videos of him on you tube where he calls for the burning of Bangkok.

It's a sobering thought - for me, at least - and not a conclusion that I would have drawn before - but it seems to me that all that stands between Thailand and the Philippines is the present system, headed by the Royal Institution, and the Thai middle class that by and large supports it.

Imperfect though it may be, it acts as a check between Thailand's present parlous political state and a complete descent into the gang political violence of the Philippines.

[chinook]

They used TAR 21 rifles as well if my memory serves me correctly.

[SuneeTH]

M16 with sight is NOT a sniper weapon.

At a distance, it is so inaccurate, that by aiming at the legs, the bullet can eventually end up penetrating the heart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVmlkt6adtw

[ramrod711]

At the time of the crackdown in Bangkok, the red shirts were talking about the "watermelon soldiers", green on the outside, red on the inside. They showed footage of soldiers posing with the demonstrators, smiling and even accepting gifts. I don't doubt for a moment that such soldiers existed. The question that I have is; if it was the army that deployed the black shirts

and is responsible for their actions, why has there been no evidence or testimony from any of the red shirt sympathizers in the military. Seriously, has there ever been a government organization that could keep a secret?

[KireB]

It's a sobering thought - for me, at least - and not a conclusion that I would have drawn before - but it seems to me that all that stands between Thailand and the Philippines is the present system, headed by the Royal Institution, and the Thai middle class that by and large supports it.

Imperfect though it may be, it acts as a check between Thailand's present parlous political state and a complete descent into the gang political violence of the Philippines.

Nail on its head!

[AleG]

A very dubious claim to say the least.

In any case not deploying snipers would had been a blunder, IMHO, who best equipped and trained to take out armed militias without harming unnamed rioters? Even police forces around the world use snipers in sensitive situations.

At the time of the crackdown in Bangkok, the red shirts were talking about the "watermelon soldiers", green on the outside, red on the inside. They showed footage of soldiers posing with the demonstrators, smiling and even accepting gifts. I don't doubt for a moment that such soldiers existed. The question that I have is; if it was the army that deployed the black shirts

and is responsible for their actions, why has there been no evidence or testimony from any of the red shirt sympathizers in the military. Seriously, has there ever been a government organization that could keep a secret?

Indeed.

Furthermore, if the Black Shirts were government stooges mingling with the Red Shirts to provoke a bloodbath then why haven't the Red Shirts campaigned for uncovering who those Black Shirts were? Why not coming forward with testimonies and evidence as to their identities and actions? Their silence is damning.

[h90]

I recall that the army was proud to shoot black shirts with sniper who wanted to burn down gasoline stations.

[SuneeTH]

I recall that the army was proud to shoot black shirts with sniper who wanted to burn down gasoline stations.

In the leg only.

Not sniper. Just army sharp shooter using stand M16 with a sight.

The the bullet that kill Saeh Deang, possibily by sniper from root top hundreds of meter away.

[moe666]

As I have said many time Big T wants to be the Marcos of Thailand

[McMagus]

I'm not a natural supporter of monarchies or elites. I consider myself a socialist. But I have just watched - 30 minutes ago - a one hour Al Jazeera programme by Veronica Pedrosa on the proliferation of clan and gangster dominated politics in the Philippines (her country) from the time of Ferdinand and Imelda Marcos to the recent Ampatuan massacre in Mindanao, where a Muslim insurgency not entirely unlike that in southern Thailand continues to smoulder.

Now I see that the terrorist and thug Natthawut, servant of Thaksin and of his own self-seeking ends, is throwing his unelected weight around in Thai politics yet again.

During the Al Jazeera programme a courageous Filipino journalist says of Imelda Marcos: "let's face it - she's a thief who was married to a murderer, thug and tyrant". Who does that make you think of in Dubai? And Natthawut is a shoe-in for the vicious thugs of the Ampatuan clan in Maguindanao. If you doubt this, just look at the videos of him on you tube where he calls for the burning of Bangkok.

It's a sobering thought - for me, at least - and not a conclusion that I would have drawn before - but it seems to me that all that stands between Thailand and the Philippines is the present system, headed by the Royal Institution, and the Thai middle class that by and large supports it.

Imperfect though it may be, it acts as a check between Thailand's present parlous political state and a complete descent into the gang political violence of the Philippines.

It is clear to anybody who has eyes to see and half a brain, that Thai politics is all about feudalism. Old / elite v new money. It is easy to vilify Mr. T because he comes from outside the accepted norms of Thai society. Do I think he is a saviour? no way. Do I think he is power hungry? almost certainly. Is he guilty of some crimes? I would think so. But that is the way here. For God's sake don't go prattling on about how the elitist rightwing factions of Thai society as saviours of democracy. Everyone has their noses in their own respective swill. There is no democracy in Thailand, irrespective of what colour; there is only loyalty to the tribal boss, be they amart or the new wealthy. After the last riots, I listened to an international journo talking at a public forum about his experiences reporting the riots. He was still in a plaster cast from the bullet wounds. I believe totally his story. As he was photographing he was targeted by army shooters and was pinned down having been shot in the leg. Some 'men in black' came over to him and spoke to each other in sign language and extricated him from the situation. He was put on the back of a motorcycle and was still being targeted as he drove away. But the interesting thing was, the overpowering impression he had that these men were very highly trained individuals..possibly army special forces. So now the question. Were they there because they had sympathies with the red shirts or were they planted there by the army. Who knows. As soon as I think I have a handle on things here in the LOS I realised I know <deleted> ... wheels within wheels within wheels. Everything in this country is designed to restrict power (and I include access to education) to the elites. This includes laws that work against small foreign business, to land ownership, to agro monopolies, even to the structure of Thai script, the lot. Whilst Thaksin was doing what he did to maintain his own power base, he awoke in the rural poor an extremely dangerous thing ... a thought... a concept... that they should be masters of their own destiny. I listened to an academic talking about Thai democracy and, in all seriousness he said ... 'we give them the vote but they keep voting in the wrong person'. Unless Thailand comes to grips with it's internal factions the troubles will continue and as a guest here and an observer I hold out little hope and in the meantime LOS is just Land of Lost Opportunities.

[tomross46]

APM Chalerm has said, in the press and on the air that the Black Shirts and the snipers were Police. He should knoe he is in charge of the police.

[rubl]

Meanwhile, Deputy Agriculture Minister Natthawut Saikua, a red-shirt leader, said he believed former prime minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and former deputy prime minister Suthep Thaugsuban would be summoned this month for questioning over their alleged orders for troops to fire at the people.

theNation should have written "UDD leader Natthawut" as this topic has nothing to do with his MP position or agriculture.

[Thait Spot]

APM Chalerm has said, in the press and on the air that the Black Shirts and the snipers were Police. He should knoe he is in charge of the police.

Has he had anyone arrested yet? It would be good to see some justice

[OzMick]

It is clear to anybody who has eyes to see and half a brain, that Thai politics is all about feudalism. Old / elite v new money. It is easy to vilify Mr. T because he comes from outside the accepted norms of Thai society. Do I think he is a saviour? no way. Do I think he is power hungry? almost certainly. Is he guilty of some crimes? I would think so. But that is the way here. For God's sake don't go prattling on about how the elitist rightwing factions of Thai society as saviours of democracy. Everyone has their noses in their own respective swill. There is no democracy in Thailand, irrespective of what colour; there is only loyalty to the tribal boss, be they amart or the new wealthy. After the last riots, I listened to an international journo talking at a public forum about his experiences reporting the riots. He was still in a plaster cast from the bullet wounds. I believe totally his story. As he was photographing he was targeted by army shooters and was pinned down having been shot in the leg. Some 'men in black' came over to him and spoke to each other in sign language and extricated him from the situation. He was put on the back of a motorcycle and was still being targeted as he drove away. But the interesting thing was, the overpowering impression he had that these men were very highly trained individuals..possibly army special forces. So now the question. Were they there because they had sympathies with the red shirts or were they planted there by the army. Who knows. As soon as I think I have a handle on things here in the LOS I realised I know <deleted> ... wheels within wheels within wheels. Everything in this country is designed to restrict power (and I include access to education) to the elites. This includes laws that work against small foreign business, to land ownership, to agro monopolies, even to the structure of Thai script, the lot. Whilst Thaksin was doing what he did to maintain his own power base, he awoke in the rural poor an extremely dangerous thing ... a thought... a concept... that they should be masters of their own destiny. I listened to an academic talking about Thai democracy and, in all seriousness he said ... 'we give them the vote but they keep voting in the wrong person'. Unless Thailand comes to grips with it's internal factions the troubles will continue and as a guest here and an observer I hold out little hope and in the meantime LOS is just Land of Lost Opportunities.

"Some 'men in black' came over to him and spoke to each other in sign language ........... the overpowering impression he had that these men were very highly trained individuals..possibly army special forces."

Has it occurred to you that there are many armies in the world that have highly trained special forces, and that some of them work as mercenaries? Sign language is normally used for stealth, or in extremely noisy situations, but it could also be that speaking Russian or some other foreign language, might prove embarassing for their paymaster.

[hellodolly]

At the time of the crackdown in Bangkok, the red shirts were talking about the "watermelon soldiers", green on the outside, red on the inside. They showed footage of soldiers posing with the demonstrators, smiling and even accepting gifts. I don't doubt for a moment that such soldiers existed. The question that I have is; if it was the army that deployed the black shirts

and is responsible for their actions, why has there been no evidence or testimony from any of the red shirt sympathizers in the military. Seriously, has there ever been a government organization that could keep a secret?

And has there ever been a opportunity for a red shirt to misrepresent the truth that they haven't taken. If the black shirts were not on there side why do they not prove it. Who else was close enough on a regular basses to know the truth. And yet they have nothing.

[philw]

It is clear to anybody who has eyes to see and half a brain, that Thai politics is all about feudalism. Old / elite v new money. It is easy to vilify Mr. T because he comes from outside the accepted norms of Thai society. Do I think he is a saviour? no way. Do I think he is power hungry? almost certainly. Is he guilty of some crimes? I would think so. But that is the way here. For God's sake don't go prattling on about how the elitist rightwing factions of Thai society as saviours of democracy. Everyone has their noses in their own respective swill. There is no democracy in Thailand, irrespective of what colour; there is only loyalty to the tribal boss, be they amart or the new wealthy. After the last riots, I listened to an international journo talking at a public forum about his experiences reporting the riots. He was still in a plaster cast from the bullet wounds. I believe totally his story. As he was photographing he was targeted by army shooters and was pinned down having been shot in the leg. Some 'men in black' came over to him and spoke to each other in sign language and extricated him from the situation. He was put on the back of a motorcycle and was still being targeted as he drove away. But the interesting thing was, the overpowering impression he had that these men were very highly trained individuals..possibly army special forces. So now the question. Were they there because they had sympathies with the red shirts or were they planted there by the army. Who knows. As soon as I think I have a handle on things here in the LOS I realised I know <deleted> ... wheels within wheels within wheels. Everything in this country is designed to restrict power (and I include access to education) to the elites. This includes laws that work against small foreign business, to land ownership, to agro monopolies, even to the structure of Thai script, the lot. Whilst Thaksin was doing what he did to maintain his own power base, he awoke in the rural poor an extremely dangerous thing ... a thought... a concept... that they should be masters of their own destiny. I listened to an academic talking about Thai democracy and, in all seriousness he said ... 'we give them the vote but they keep voting in the wrong person'. Unless Thailand comes to grips with it's internal factions the troubles will continue and as a guest here and an observer I hold out little hope and in the meantime LOS is just Land of Lost Opportunities.

"Some 'men in black' came over to him and spoke to each other in sign language ........... the overpowering impression he had that these men were very highly trained individuals..possibly army special forces."

Has it occurred to you that there are many armies in the world that have highly trained special forces, and that some of them work as mercenaries? Sign language is normally used for stealth, or in extremely noisy situations, but it could also be that speaking Russian or some other foreign language, might prove embarassing for their paymaster.

Are you seriously suggesting the presence of Russian mercenaries ???

Wow, that's really a new one.

[retarius]

I read this and I wonder what planet you people live on...so biased and blinded by hate for anything that can remotely be associated with Thaksin. Of course the Army had snipers, they took out that general who was leading the red shirt defense....shot from the hospital across the way by a sniper...and whether it technically a sniper rifle or not, makes no difference...Sansern is simply distorting the truth to create a flase impression. Abhisit failed the country by not having ANY accountability for the slime that massacred innocent people who were fighting for what they believed in politically, which means that now we still have the problems we have today. What do you folk want, Abhisit's cover-up, or an investigation to uncover the truth and punish those responsible? Abhisit's a liar, plain and simple....when the shots were first fired, he claimed on television that the army didn't have any live rounds...next day he's demanding that the red shirts return all the ammo, guns and vehicles they captured...swallow too much kool aid propaganda and you will never get at the truth...but truth isn't really what is wanted here is it? Every one of these articles brings out the hate brigade and the snide witless comments....it's pitiful...grow up.

[Voltaire]

If one visits the Chulalongklao Royal Military Academy in Nakorn Nayok, one can see first hand commendations on display for snipers and there is infact an indoor shooting range specifically for sniper training. Also, stickers on 4x4's roaming around Bangkok often have the battalion insignia and number.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Voltaire

[ramrod711]

I read this and I wonder what planet you people live on...so biased and blinded by hate for anything that can remotely be associated with Thaksin. Of course the Army had snipers, they took out that general who was leading the red shirt defense....shot from the hospital across the way by a sniper...and whether it technically a sniper rifle or not, makes no difference...Sansern is simply distorting the truth to create a flase impression. Abhisit failed the country by not having ANY accountability for the slime that massacred innocent people who were fighting for what they believed in politically, which means that now we still have the problems we have today. What do you folk want, Abhisit's cover-up, or an investigation to uncover the truth and punish those responsible? Abhisit's a liar, plain and simple....when the shots were first fired, he claimed on television that the army didn't have any live rounds...next day he's demanding that the red shirts return all the ammo, guns and vehicles they captured...swallow too much kool aid propaganda and you will never get at the truth...but truth isn't really what is wanted here is it? Every one of these articles brings out the hate brigade and the snide witless comments....it's pitiful...grow up.

Well, it's certainly nice to get an unbiased view, you are definitely the voice of reason.

[GentlemanJim]

If one visits the Chulalongklao Royal Military Academy in Nakorn Nayok, one can see first hand commendations on display for snipers and there is infact an indoor shooting range specifically for sniper training. Also, stickers on 4x4's roaming around Bangkok often have the battalion insignia and number.

And your point is what exactly? Just how big is the indoor sniper range ??

[khunken]

I read this and I wonder what planet you people live on...so biased and blinded by hate for anything that can remotely be associated with Thaksin. Of course the Army had snipers, they took out that general who was leading the red shirt defense....shot from the hospital across the way by a sniper...and whether it technically a sniper rifle or not, makes no difference...Sansern is simply distorting the truth to create a flase impression. Abhisit failed the country by not having ANY accountability for the slime that massacred innocent people who were fighting for what they believed in politically, which means that now we still have the problems we have today. What do you folk want, Abhisit's cover-up, or an investigation to uncover the truth and punish those responsible? Abhisit's a liar, plain and simple....when the shots were first fired, he claimed on television that the army didn't have any live rounds...next day he's demanding that the red shirts return all the ammo, guns and vehicles they captured...swallow too much kool aid propaganda and you will never get at the truth...but truth isn't really what is wanted here is it? Every one of these articles brings out the hate brigade and the snide witless comments....it's pitiful...grow up.

Actually it's you that needs to grow up if you believe in the rubbish you wrote.

Sae Daeng was shot, probably by a sniper, but there is no evidence to suggest it was from the hospital.

You seem to be (deliberately?) ignorant of Thaksin's role of starting the whole shambles to use ordinary paid & gullible people in order to (1) bring down the government & (2) get back his ill-gotten gains that the courts had rightly removed from him.

You also seem ignorant of Abhisit's offer to the red shirts of an early election - turned down by the same instigator via his lieutenant Jataporn.

The army didn't start shooting until several of their (unarmed) men, including a senior officer, were killed by red-black shirts - no one knows which.

Lastly you don't seem to have any idea why the army & not the police were involved. The police fled the scene, having proven over a number of years that they mostly support Thaksin. The government were forced to use the army, with predictable consequences & petty snipes over when & who ordered them to use live ammunition is just a distraction from those with an axe to grind.

Edited August 18, 2012 by khunken

[MikeOboe57]

I read this and I wonder what planet you people live on...so biased and blinded by hate for anything that can remotely be associated with Thaksin. Of course the Army had snipers, they took out that general who was leading the red shirt defense....shot from the hospital across the way by a sniper...and whether it technically a sniper rifle or not, makes no difference...Sansern is simply distorting the truth to create a flase impression. Abhisit failed the country by not having ANY accountability for the slime that massacred innocent people who were fighting for what they believed in politically, which means that now we still have the problems we have today. What do you folk want, Abhisit's cover-up, or an investigation to uncover the truth and punish those responsible? Abhisit's a liar, plain and simple....when the shots were first fired, he claimed on television that the army didn't have any live rounds...next day he's demanding that the red shirts return all the ammo, guns and vehicles they captured...swallow too much kool aid propaganda and you will never get at the truth...but truth isn't really what is wanted here is it? Every one of these articles brings out the hate brigade and the snide witless comments....it's pitiful...grow up.

It is always a hilarious moment in every forum, when someone who firmly believes in fairytales tells other people to grow up and share his beliefs.

But back on topic.

"[...] that general who was leading the red shirt defense" Seh Daeng Sawasdipol was of course not the military mastermind behind the bamboo and tyre barricades. Mostly because he was just a loud-mouthed idiot who would walk around the camp in a carnival costume of jungle fatigues, a vietnam-style hat decorated with safety pins of hand grenades, combat boots and a web belt with a machete and attached canteen - in the centre of a mega city like Bangkok. But he was useful as he drew the attention away from those men in black, that constantly gave the army a hard time in their nightly raids, while Seh Daeng was busy instructing the red rabble to pile up old tyres and decorate them with pointy bamboo sticks.

All good things, however, had to come to an end. Seh Daeng grew overconfident and started to think that he was actually Thaksin's "Chief of Staff". So when the negotiations between the Leaders of the Red Shirts and the Government seemed to reach an agreement on premature elections, Seh Daeng declared those Leaders as removed from their posts. A most unwelcome turn of events. But Seh Daeng was too popular with the red rabble,so kicking him out of camp would have caused massive protests. As the cause needed a martyr and he had become a liability, he was quickly taken out by a trained marksman. Some of the witnesses correctly but most probably accidentally pointed out the location of the shooter in the redshirt held territory, while others just heard the supersonic crack of the passing bullet and were 90 or more degrees off the mark. But his killers correctly asumed that the red shirts and their fan group, including retarius and others, would blindly believe that he was taken out by the army because of his "military experience"

[philw]

I read this and I wonder what planet you people live on...so biased and blinded by hate for anything that can remotely be associated with Thaksin. Of course the Army had snipers, they took out that general who was leading the red shirt defense....shot from the hospital across the way by a sniper...and whether it technically a sniper rifle or not, makes no difference...Sansern is simply distorting the truth to create a flase impression. Abhisit failed the country by not having ANY accountability for the slime that massacred innocent people who were fighting for what they believed in politically, which means that now we still have the problems we have today. What do you folk want, Abhisit's cover-up, or an investigation to uncover the truth and punish those responsible? Abhisit's a liar, plain and simple....when the shots were first fired, he claimed on television that the army didn't have any live rounds...next day he's demanding that the red shirts return all the ammo, guns and vehicles they captured...swallow too much kool aid propaganda and you will never get at the truth...but truth isn't really what is wanted here is it? Every one of these articles brings out the hate brigade and the snide witless comments....it's pitiful...grow up.

Actually it's you that needs to grow up if you believe in the rubbish you wrote.

Sae Daeng was shot, probably by a sniper, but there is no evidence to suggest it was from the hospital.

You seem to be (deliberately?) ignorant of Thaksin's role of starting the whole shambles to use ordinary paid & gullible people in order to (1) bring down the government & (2) get back his ill-gotten gains that the courts had rightly removed from him.

You also seem ignorant of Abhisit's offer to the red shirts of an early election - turned down by the same instigator via his lieutenant Jataporn.

The army didn't start shooting until several of their (unarmed) men, including a senior officer, were killed by red-black shirts - no one knows which.

Lastly you don't seem to have any idea why the army & not the police were involved. The police fled the scene, having proven over a number of years that they mostly support Thaksin. The government were forced to use the army, with predictable consequences & petty snipes over when & who ordered them to use live ammunition is just a distraction from those with an axe to grind.

Love it.

The unarmed army.................

Perchance were they disarmed by the Russian mercenaries introduced to another thread by an Australian voice of reason, depth of thought and military experience.................???

Edited August 18, 2012 by philw

[Fozfromoz]

I read this and I wonder what planet you people live on...so biased and blinded by hate for anything that can remotely be associated with Thaksin. Of course the Army had snipers, they took out that general who was leading the red shirt defense....shot from the hospital across the way by a sniper...and whether it technically a sniper rifle or not, makes no difference...Sansern is simply distorting the truth to create a flase impression. Abhisit failed the country by not having ANY accountability for the slime that massacred innocent people who were fighting for what they believed in politically, which means that now we still have the problems we have today. What do you folk want, Abhisit's cover-up, or an investigation to uncover the truth and punish those responsible? Abhisit's a liar, plain and simple....when the shots were first fired, he claimed on television that the army didn't have any live rounds...next day he's demanding that the red shirts return all the ammo, guns and vehicles they captured...swallow too much kool aid propaganda and you will never get at the truth...but truth isn't really what is wanted here is it? Every one of these articles brings out the hate brigade and the snide witless comments....it's pitiful...grow up.

Well, it's certainly nice to get an unbiased view, you are definitely the voice of reason.

Perhaps it could be thought of as a counterbalance

[khunken]

I read this and I wonder what planet you people live on...so biased and blinded by hate for anything that can remotely be associated with Thaksin. Of course the Army had snipers, they took out that general who was leading the red shirt defense....shot from the hospital across the way by a sniper...and whether it technically a sniper rifle or not, makes no difference...Sansern is simply distorting the truth to create a flase impression. Abhisit failed the country by not having ANY accountability for the slime that massacred innocent people who were fighting for what they believed in politically, which means that now we still have the problems we have today. What do you folk want, Abhisit's cover-up, or an investigation to uncover the truth and punish those responsible? Abhisit's a liar, plain and simple....when the shots were first fired, he claimed on television that the army didn't have any live rounds...next day he's demanding that the red shirts return all the ammo, guns and vehicles they captured...swallow too much kool aid propaganda and you will never get at the truth...but truth isn't really what is wanted here is it? Every one of these articles brings out the hate brigade and the snide witless comments....it's pitiful...grow up.

Actually it's you that needs to grow up if you believe in the rubbish you wrote.

Sae Daeng was shot, probably by a sniper, but there is no evidence to suggest it was from the hospital.

You seem to be (deliberately?) ignorant of Thaksin's role of starting the whole shambles to use ordinary paid & gullible people in order to (1) bring down the government & (2) get back his ill-gotten gains that the courts had rightly removed from him.

You also seem ignorant of Abhisit's offer to the red shirts of an early election - turned down by the same instigator via his lieutenant Jataporn.

The army didn't start shooting until several of their (unarmed) men, including a senior officer, were killed by red-black shirts - no one knows which.

Lastly you don't seem to have any idea why the army & not the police were involved. The police fled the scene, having proven over a number of years that they mostly support Thaksin. The government were forced to use the army, with predictable consequences & petty snipes over when & who ordered them to use live ammunition is just a distraction from those with an axe to grind.

Love it.

The unarmed army.................

Perchance were they disarmed by the Russian mercenaries introduced to another thread by an Australian voice of reason, depth of thought and military experience.................???

Is that supposed to be funny or a distraction? Unarmed as in no live ammunition.

Still too difficult to understand?

[metisdead]

A flame post and a reply have been removed. You many not agree with another poster's opinion, to resort to a flame reply is not allowed.

[animatic]

I'm not a natural supporter of monarchies or elites. I consider myself a socialist. But I have just watched - 30 minutes ago - a one hour Al Jazeera programme by Veronica Pedrosa on the proliferation of clan and gangster dominated politics in the Philippines (her country) from the time of Ferdinand and Imelda Marcos to the recent Ampatuan massacre in Mindanao, where a Muslim insurgency not entirely unlike that in southern Thailand continues to smoulder.

Now I see that the terrorist and thug Natthawut, servant of Thaksin and of his own self-seeking ends, is throwing his unelected weight around in Thai politics yet again.

During the Al Jazeera programme a courageous Filipino journalist says of Imelda Marcos: "let's face it - she's a thief who was married to a murderer, thug and tyrant". Who does that make you think of in Dubai? And Natthawut is a shoe-in for the vicious thugs of the Ampatuan clan in Maguindanao. If you doubt this, just look at the videos of him on you tube where he calls for the burning of Bangkok.

It's a sobering thought - for me, at least - and not a conclusion that I would have drawn before - but it seems to me that all that stands between Thailand and the Philippines is the present system, headed by the Royal Institution, and the Thai middle class that by and large supports it.

Imperfect though it may be, it acts as a check between Thailand's present parlous political state and a complete descent into the gang political violence of the Philippines.

It is clear to anybody who has eyes to see and half a brain, that Thai politics is all about feudalism. Old / elite v new money. It is easy to vilify Mr. T because he comes from outside the accepted norms of Thai society. Do I think he is a saviour? no way. Do I think he is power hungry? almost certainly. Is he guilty of some crimes? I would think so. But that is the way here. For God's sake don't go prattling on about how the elitist rightwing factions of Thai society as saviours of democracy. Everyone has their noses in their own respective swill. There is no democracy in Thailand, irrespective of what colour; there is only loyalty to the tribal boss, be they amart or the new wealthy. After the last riots, I listened to an international journo talking at a public forum about his experiences reporting the riots. He was still in a plaster cast from the bullet wounds. I believe totally his story. As he was photographing he was targeted by army shooters and was pinned down having been shot in the leg. Some 'men in black' came over to him and spoke to each other in sign language and extricated him from the situation. He was put on the back of a motorcycle and was still being targeted as he drove away. But the interesting thing was, the overpowering impression he had that these men were very highly trained individuals..possibly army special forces. So now the question. Were they there because they had sympathies with the red shirts or were they planted there by the army. Who knows. As soon as I think I have a handle on things here in the LOS I realised I know <deleted> ... wheels within wheels within wheels. Everything in this country is designed to restrict power (and I include access to education) to the elites. This includes laws that work against small foreign business, to land ownership, to agro monopolies, even to the structure of Thai script, the lot. Whilst Thaksin was doing what he did to maintain his own power base, he awoke in the rural poor an extremely dangerous thing ... a thought... a concept... that they should be masters of their own destiny. I listened to an academic talking about Thai democracy and, in all seriousness he said ... 'we give them the vote but they keep voting in the wrong person'. Unless Thailand comes to grips with it's internal factions the troubles will continue and as a guest here and an observer I hold out little hope and in the meantime LOS is just Land of Lost Opportunities.

If you were going to hire 'Men in Black' to sandbag the army,

would YOU hire 'Ex Special Forces guys' or just brutish thugs?

It's an obvious answer to hire highly trained mercenaries to do your dirty work,

and pay them enough to never, ever speak of it again. Especially if you are extraordinarily rich.

Perception Management basics to topple a countries leadership and hobble it's army

calls for :

front men inciting the masses,

international voices decrying how unfair it all is,

and what underdogs these poor 'mass' are,

and 'boots on the ground' to make things look as bad as possible for your opponents.

Then once it 'looks bad', keep hammering the dialog and pretend to own the moral high ground,

discretely created by your amoral actions, so those acts are believed widely as the actions of your opponent.

ie Create the big lie. Tell the big lie often and loudly. Eventually the truth is utterly lost.

Edited August 18, 2012 by animatic

[animatic]

If one visits the Chulalongklao Royal Military Academy in Nakorn Nayok, one can see first hand commendations on display for snipers and there is infact an indoor shooting range specifically for sniper training. Also, stickers on 4x4's roaming around Bangkok often have the battalion insignia and number.

And your point is what exactly? Just how big is the indoor sniper range ??

There is no such thing as an 'indoor sniper range'.

Sniping by it's very nature is long distance and outdoors.

You don't get any good at short distance and now sense of wind effects.

And since the army would have dozens of outdoor sharpshooter practice ranges

like one at EVERY army base of any size, unlikely that can't ALSO shoot from

500-1000 meters farther back from one or too and no one knows the difference,

because people are firing guns most of the day.

Edited August 18, 2012 by animatic