Phuket Expat Frenchman Stands To Lose B100Mn Home In National Park Land Raid

Dork · August 30, 2012

Simply don't buy or invest in Thailand.

It's a simple rule.

I wouldn't say "don't invest" many - among myself are benefiting, from low salary's, and BOI's recent change in willingness to accept applications. Especially within IT.

Workpermits come within weeks, tax freedom, etc - Bangkok is a good place to do business atm IMHO.

Buy buying my own house here....never. Not even through loopholes in the BOI setup.

It's so easy and cheap to rent here - that buying your own house/condo here is idiotic.

Agree with you on the economics. However building your own home is about more than just money, especially in the long term. If you had the choice between spending a large portion of your life living in someone elses apartment/house or in your own place which is whatever & wherever you are happy - which choice is idiotic?

BusyBee123 · August 30, 2012

Which Western bank are you talking about. I haven't seen any that have interest rates high enough to cover rent here.

Wouldn't that simply depend on the amount of money in the account and the interest%?

And what about inflation? Over the years the interest you get will cover less and less of the rent.

And why would that be? The rent will stay the same (that is the way Thai rental contracts are setup), and in general in the west if there is a big inflation also interest rates go up.

Thai rents don't stay the same over 20-40 years, so I have no idea what you are talking about. To take a simple example, suppose your choice was to buy or rent a 7m baht condo. Condos in my building sell for that amount and rent for 25k-30k per month. So put 7m in the bank and you'll get around 3% interest (before tax). So that's 210k baht a year interest. Assuming you could rent at the lower rate of 25k per year, then you would be paying 300k a year rent. So you are paying 90k baht extra per year renting vs. buying. Both rental and selling prices in the condo are up over the last 5 years. So buy renting you are paying more every month, but are losing out on capital appreciation. Rents will be much higher in 20 years time, just due to inflation. It happens everywhere. And what if money is in your home country and the currency moves against you? You could then only be getting 100K baht a month interest. If someone is planning to live here forever and have family to consider, the security of owning their own place is important. There will be no worries about rent rises, inflation, currency movements, etc. You will own your home and at least know that you and your family have a roof over their head.

But would I buy here if I was planning to stay only 5 years on not sure what my long-term plans were? No I wouldn't. But that would be the same in my home country. Whether buying is better than renting is down to individual circumstances. To say it's better to rent for everyone is plainly wrong. Buying works very well for some people.

And what if you can't sell? Again, depends on circumstances. If you have $10m and spend $0.5m on a condo, then it's no big deal if you can sell, need to sell at a loss or whatever. If you invest every last cent you have in a condo, then maybe that's not the right thing to do. But these situations are totally different, and you can't have one rule to cover them all.

I am happy to invest here, so will continue to do so. If you don't want to then that is your choice, and if it makes you happy then we are both happy.

Can you point me in the direction of these fabulous maintenance free condos please.

NamKangMan · August 30, 2012

The old argument of "paying rent is dead money" may be a valid argument in the west - BUT, this is Thailand, and in my opinion, paying rent here is a solid financial decision, especially when you put the purchase capital into a western bank and it makes more than enough money in interest to cover the rent here, and that capital is available to you at any time.

Which Western bank are you talking about. I haven't seen any that have interest rates high enough to cover rent here. And what about inflation? Over the years the interest you get will cover less and less of the rent. And you also have currency fluctuations to deal with. Could go in your favour, but what if it goes 50% against you in the next 10 years. If you intend to live in Thailand for the rest of your life it makes much more sense to buy a property.

I think you worry far to much about getting a property confiscated? How often does that actually happen? I've never heard it happen with anyone who bought a condo. The only places I've heard about it is where the property is built in the wrong place (e.g. in a national park) or where the land has been bought illegally (e.g. setting up a company specifically to around laws that don't allow you to own land). Stick to the laws and you'll be ok.

Build a property in a national park in the UK and I can guarantee you that it will get demolished much more quickly than here. In the UK, properties have recently been demolished because they were 6" to high and 6" too wide. That is the reality in the UK. And in Spain, tens of thousands of properties have been demolished. The buyers did everything correctly in these cases but didn't get any compensation. So that is the West for you.

I think you spend too much time listening to the Thailand knockers on here and need to get out into the real world and meet some real people who have bought property and live happy lives, free from any hassle.

But I would advise you against buying anything in Thailand because it would be far too stressful for you worrying about could happen.

Dave, your posts remind me a lot of a member who was recently banned.

Firstly, if inflation goes up, interest rates go up. Basic Economics-101.

Ok, so, I have a few offshore bank accounts, but I have picked a bank in this region. Click on the below link and you will see one of the bigger banks in Australia is offering 5% with interest paid monthly. The Australian Government guarantees all deposits under $1,000,000AUD. A deposit into this bank is extremely safe.

http://www.westpac.c...rm-deposits/#s3

All the other Australian banks are offering pretty similar, so, no need to provide their links.

I had a quick look on the Siam Real Estate website. On the front page of houses to rent was this property, renting for 20,000 baht a month. (I have never seen this property - I have no interests in this property - I have not reseached this property) I am simply using this property as an example.

http://www.siamreale...y-home-chalong/

If I was to rent the above property, I have no taxes to pay, no major maintainence to pay, no risk in the property market here, no risk of the property title being genuine, I can move whenever I want - especially if a factory opens up next door or a chicken farm, I do not have a diminishing lease (30 years decreasing) I have no legal fees/company set up fees to pay for purchase, I do not have an asset that is decreasing in value due to age, I can leave my $153,000US to my children upon my death.

Let's do the maths.

20,000 x 12 = 240,000 baht per year rent

4,800,000 x 5% = 240,000 per year in interest

4,800,000 baht = $153,000US = 96,500 British Pounds = €122,000

This is the minimum deposit/investment required to pay for your rent, each month. I would suggest a high majority of expats, after working all their life and qualifying for a pension/superannuation payout, and selling their house/car/furtinure/business etc etc to retire here, would be able to raise a lot more than the minimum required just to cover the rent here.

Now, here's a property in the same area, for close to the same money as required to have your interest pay for renting a similar, possibly nicer property.

http://www.siamreale...-swimming-pool/

If I was to purchase this property, it will sit on land I can never own, I have to pay legal fees for the purchase and company set up, I have to pay taxes, I have to pay maintainence and repairs, I would have to sell if I want to move - extremely difficult if a chicken farm gets built next door, every year that passes my 30 years is decreasing, upon my death my children - if they are on the land title - are left with the problem of dealing with agents for selling the property- and the problem of getting the proceeds of the sale out of Thailand, I am exposed to property market, I may only live for 10 years - so I have forgone 20 years of what I have paid for (the older retiree may consider this)

So, given the above, renting represents a solid financial decision for me, and I would suggest many others, and has absolutely nothing to do with how "stressful" property ownership for me here would be.

Edited August 30, 2012 by NamKangMan

laislica · August 30, 2012

As sad as it it that a fa-rang is duped into buying a property that is illegal, it is not only Thailand that has this problem.

Spain has very many similar cases. Such as, an outline permission is given in 1981 for a building that is not properly defined and on national park land, turns out to be a 400 bed hotel and in 2009, when it's almost finished at a cost of 25 million Euros, work is stopped and it is ordered to be demolished. The arguments escalate to Brussels and continue to date. All because of handouts to corrupt officials.

http://elpais.com/elpais/2012/04/12/inenglish/1334254407_041726.html

edcv2007 · August 30, 2012

The old argument of "paying rent is dead money" may be a valid argument in the west - BUT, this is Thailand, and in my opinion, paying rent here is a solid financial decision, especially when you put the purchase capital into a western bank and it makes more than enough money in interest to cover the rent here, and that capital is available to you at any time.

Which Western bank are you talking about. I haven't seen any that have interest rates high enough to cover rent here. And what about inflation? Over the years the interest you get will cover less and less of the rent. And you also have currency fluctuations to deal with. Could go in your favour, but what if it goes 50% against you in the next 10 years. If you intend to live in Thailand for the rest of your life it makes much more sense to buy a property.

I think you worry far to much about getting a property confiscated? How often does that actually happen? I've never heard it happen with anyone who bought a condo. The only places I've heard about it is where the property is built in the wrong place (e.g. in a national park) or where the land has been bought illegally (e.g. setting up a company specifically to around laws that don't allow you to own land). Stick to the laws and you'll be ok.

Build a property in a national park in the UK and I can guarantee you that it will get demolished much more quickly than here. In the UK, properties have recently been demolished because they were 6" to high and 6" too wide. That is the reality in the UK. And in Spain, tens of thousands of properties have been demolished. The buyers did everything correctly in these cases but didn't get any compensation. So that is the West for you.

I think you spend too much time listening to the Thailand knockers on here and need to get out into the real world and meet some real people who have bought property and live happy lives, free from any hassle.

But I would advise you against buying anything in Thailand because it would be far too stressful for you worrying about could happen.

Hello. The Spanish people you are talking about: first stoled the land and built illegally the house. Sometines they built in a National Park, sometines 100m. from the beach,... Fortunately the new goverment changed the law. So that people are lucky and have to give thanks to not go to the jail.

People is not stupid but intended to be

ALFREDO · August 30, 2012

100 Million Bath or more worth? A chance for a legally ordered destruction?

That would be nearly 100 Million B. in possible bribe money!

sunkist · September 1, 2012

It's so easy and cheap to rent here - that buying your own house/condo here is idiotic.

It's not at all idiotic to buy a condo here. If you are here long-term it makes sense, as you are able to renovate to suit your own style. I rent at the moment, but there are always things about rental properties that I would like to change but can't. I will buy here one day. I don't see what's idiotic about it. What is idiotic is claiming that buying a house/condo is idiotic. It may not suit everyone, but it does suit some.

You had better do your homework as Non Thai cannot own land. Be very careful is the lesson.

davejones · September 1, 2012

It's so easy and cheap to rent here - that buying your own house/condo here is idiotic.

It's not at all idiotic to buy a condo here. If you are here long-term it makes sense, as you are able to renovate to suit your own style. I rent at the moment, but there are always things about rental properties that I would like to change but can't. I will buy here one day. I don't see what's idiotic about it. What is idiotic is claiming that buying a house/condo is idiotic. It may not suit everyone, but it does suit some.

You had better do your homework as Non Thai cannot own land. Be very careful is the lesson.

LOL. You keep thinking that and let others get on with buying some land.

This reminds me of all the people that consistently say things can't be done while all other around them are doing it. LOL. I have met plenty of these people during my life. They still tell me that things can't possibly work when they are working fine for me and others.

Edited September 1, 2012 by davejones

davejones · September 1, 2012

The old argument of "paying rent is dead money" may be a valid argument in the west - BUT, this is Thailand, and in my opinion, paying rent here is a solid financial decision, especially when you put the purchase capital into a western bank and it makes more than enough money in interest to cover the rent here, and that capital is available to you at any time.

Which Western bank are you talking about. I haven't seen any that have interest rates high enough to cover rent here. And what about inflation? Over the years the interest you get will cover less and less of the rent. And you also have currency fluctuations to deal with. Could go in your favour, but what if it goes 50% against you in the next 10 years. If you intend to live in Thailand for the rest of your life it makes much more sense to buy a property.

I think you worry far to much about getting a property confiscated? How often does that actually happen? I've never heard it happen with anyone who bought a condo. The only places I've heard about it is where the property is built in the wrong place (e.g. in a national park) or where the land has been bought illegally (e.g. setting up a company specifically to around laws that don't allow you to own land). Stick to the laws and you'll be ok.

Build a property in a national park in the UK and I can guarantee you that it will get demolished much more quickly than here. In the UK, properties have recently been demolished because they were 6" to high and 6" too wide. That is the reality in the UK. And in Spain, tens of thousands of properties have been demolished. The buyers did everything correctly in these cases but didn't get any compensation. So that is the West for you.

I think you spend too much time listening to the Thailand knockers on here and need to get out into the real world and meet some real people who have bought property and live happy lives, free from any hassle.

But I would advise you against buying anything in Thailand because it would be far too stressful for you worrying about could happen.

Dave, your posts remind me a lot of a member who was recently banned.

Firstly, if inflation goes up, interest rates go up. Basic Economics-101.

Ok, so, I have a few offshore bank accounts, but I have picked a bank in this region. Click on the below link and you will see one of the bigger banks in Australia is offering 5% with interest paid monthly. The Australian Government guarantees all deposits under $1,000,000AUD. A deposit into this bank is extremely safe.

http://www.westpac.c...rm-deposits/#s3

All the other Australian banks are offering pretty similar, so, no need to provide their links.

I had a quick look on the Siam Real Estate website. On the front page of houses to rent was this property, renting for 20,000 baht a month. (I have never seen this property - I have no interests in this property - I have not reseached this property) I am simply using this property as an example.

http://www.siamreale...y-home-chalong/

If I was to rent the above property, I have no taxes to pay, no major maintainence to pay, no risk in the property market here, no risk of the property title being genuine, I can move whenever I want - especially if a factory opens up next door or a chicken farm, I do not have a diminishing lease (30 years decreasing) I have no legal fees/company set up fees to pay for purchase, I do not have an asset that is decreasing in value due to age, I can leave my $153,000US to my children upon my death.

Let's do the maths.

20,000 x 12 = 240,000 baht per year rent

4,800,000 x 5% = 240,000 per year in interest

4,800,000 baht = $153,000US = 96,500 British Pounds = €122,000

This is the minimum deposit/investment required to pay for your rent, each month. I would suggest a high majority of expats, after working all their life and qualifying for a pension/superannuation payout, and selling their house/car/furtinure/business etc etc to retire here, would be able to raise a lot more than the minimum required just to cover the rent here.

Now, here's a property in the same area, for close to the same money as required to have your interest pay for renting a similar, possibly nicer property.

http://www.siamreale...-swimming-pool/

If I was to purchase this property, it will sit on land I can never own, I have to pay legal fees for the purchase and company set up, I have to pay taxes, I have to pay maintainence and repairs, I would have to sell if I want to move - extremely difficult if a chicken farm gets built next door, every year that passes my 30 years is decreasing, upon my death my children - if they are on the land title - are left with the problem of dealing with agents for selling the property- and the problem of getting the proceeds of the sale out of Thailand, I am exposed to property market, I may only live for 10 years - so I have forgone 20 years of what I have paid for (the older retiree may consider this)

So, given the above, renting represents a solid financial decision for me, and I would suggest many others, and has absolutely nothing to do with how "stressful" property ownership for me here would be.

Firstly, I've never been banned from here.

Yes, renting sounds better for you. Buying is not better than renting in all circumstances. And renting is not better than buying in all circumstances. It depends on the circumstances. also, your example is about only having a 30-year lease if you bought. If you bought a condo, it would have value in 20-30 years time. So to take you example, but make it a condo instead. In 20 years time it might be worth 10m baht. But if you rent you just have your 5m on deposit. So you will have 5m less than you could have had. Also, you are dreaming if you think the rent will still be 20k per month in 20 years time. I don't know any country in the world where the rent today is the same as it was 20 years ago. Also, what happened if the currency exchange goes against you and you only get 10k baht a month from your deposit. If you have cash and you buy a condo it is yours and you don't have rent to worry about for the rest of your life. Although you do have maintenance fees, etc. But each to his own. At the moment I'm renting and happy with it. But I wouldn't be happy to rent for 20-30 years or more.

If I decided to stay here for the rest of my life I'd buy a property for the simple reason that I'd want to renovate it (or build it) to my exact requirements. There are some great rental properties, but I've never seen one that is exactly what I want. The only times in my life when I've had a near perfect property is when I renovated it myself. Maybe I am more fussy than most, but that is what suits me. Even if it cost a little more I wouldn't care.

davejones · September 1, 2012

I expect they will compensate the French guy at the going market rate, being as how its not his fault.

I think he should just consider him self lucky, not being made the scapegoat "loooook wat baad farang do to our beuatifuyl Thai nature"

And jailed for 5 years or something - but i do agree, that the scumbag Farang "real-estate-agent" that properly sold him the property, an knew about it and made his decent little 8-10% of the sales price....should be hanged from the nearest electric pole.

Too Right Mate.

That's right, always blame someone else. The guy probably had his own lawyer, so would have (or should have) checked things out. It isn't even proven yet that the property is built illegally, so why to you want to hang someone for something that may not have even happened. It seems obvious that no-one really knows where the border of the park is, so this case could drag on for the next 10-20 years.

davejones · September 1, 2012

Simply don't buy or invest in Thailand.

It's a simple rule.

You broke rule number one.

Never mention the words "invest" and "Thailand" in the same sentence.

So are you saying that Starbucks, McDonalds, DHL, FedEx and all the other US companies should pack up and only invest their money in the US. I'm sure they have much more experience in investing here than both you and me and they are happy to invest here. These companies just get on with it and invest. Thailand would be a very sad and poor country if everyone took your attitude. There is money to be made here and both companies and individuals are making money. That is a fact.

steelepulse · September 1, 2012

The old argument of "paying rent is dead money" may be a valid argument in the west - BUT, this is Thailand, and in my opinion, paying rent here is a solid financial decision, especially when you put the purchase capital into a western bank and it makes more than enough money in interest to cover the rent here, and that capital is available to you at any time.

Which Western bank are you talking about. I haven't seen any that have interest rates high enough to cover rent here. And what about inflation? Over the years the interest you get will cover less and less of the rent. And you also have currency fluctuations to deal with. Could go in your favour, but what if it goes 50% against you in the next 10 years. If you intend to live in Thailand for the rest of your life it makes much more sense to buy a property.

I think you worry far to much about getting a property confiscated? How often does that actually happen? I've never heard it happen with anyone who bought a condo. The only places I've heard about it is where the property is built in the wrong place (e.g. in a national park) or where the land has been bought illegally (e.g. setting up a company specifically to around laws that don't allow you to own land). Stick to the laws and you'll be ok.

Build a property in a national park in the UK and I can guarantee you that it will get demolished much more quickly than here. In the UK, properties have recently been demolished because they were 6" to high and 6" too wide. That is the reality in the UK. And in Spain, tens of thousands of properties have been demolished. The buyers did everything correctly in these cases but didn't get any compensation. So that is the West for you.

I think you spend too much time listening to the Thailand knockers on here and need to get out into the real world and meet some real people who have bought property and live happy lives, free from any hassle.

But I would advise you against buying anything in Thailand because it would be far too stressful for you worrying about could happen.

Dave, your posts remind me a lot of a member who was recently banned.

Firstly, if inflation goes up, interest rates go up. Basic Economics-101.

Ok, so, I have a few offshore bank accounts, but I have picked a bank in this region. Click on the below link and you will see one of the bigger banks in Australia is offering 5% with interest paid monthly. The Australian Government guarantees all deposits under $1,000,000AUD. A deposit into this bank is extremely safe.

http://www.westpac.c...rm-deposits/#s3

All the other Australian banks are offering pretty similar, so, no need to provide their links.

I had a quick look on the Siam Real Estate website. On the front page of houses to rent was this property, renting for 20,000 baht a month. (I have never seen this property - I have no interests in this property - I have not reseached this property) I am simply using this property as an example.

http://www.siamreale...y-home-chalong/

If I was to rent the above property, I have no taxes to pay, no major maintainence to pay, no risk in the property market here, no risk of the property title being genuine, I can move whenever I want - especially if a factory opens up next door or a chicken farm, I do not have a diminishing lease (30 years decreasing) I have no legal fees/company set up fees to pay for purchase, I do not have an asset that is decreasing in value due to age, I can leave my $153,000US to my children upon my death.

Let's do the maths.

20,000 x 12 = 240,000 baht per year rent

4,800,000 x 5% = 240,000 per year in interest

4,800,000 baht = $153,000US = 96,500 British Pounds = €122,000

This is the minimum deposit/investment required to pay for your rent, each month. I would suggest a high majority of expats, after working all their life and qualifying for a pension/superannuation payout, and selling their house/car/furtinure/business etc etc to retire here, would be able to raise a lot more than the minimum required just to cover the rent here.

Now, here's a property in the same area, for close to the same money as required to have your interest pay for renting a similar, possibly nicer property.

http://www.siamreale...-swimming-pool/

If I was to purchase this property, it will sit on land I can never own, I have to pay legal fees for the purchase and company set up, I have to pay taxes, I have to pay maintainence and repairs, I would have to sell if I want to move - extremely difficult if a chicken farm gets built next door, every year that passes my 30 years is decreasing, upon my death my children - if they are on the land title - are left with the problem of dealing with agents for selling the property- and the problem of getting the proceeds of the sale out of Thailand, I am exposed to property market, I may only live for 10 years - so I have forgone 20 years of what I have paid for (the older retiree may consider this)

So, given the above, renting represents a solid financial decision for me, and I would suggest many others, and has absolutely nothing to do with how "stressful" property ownership for me here would be.

Firstly, I've never been banned from here.

Not with this nic yet . Welcome back to Phuket btb.

grumpyoldman · September 1, 2012

Davie Jones was a Monkee yes? "Hey Hey for the Monkees"........

NamKangMan · September 1, 2012

The old argument of "paying rent is dead money" may be a valid argument in the west - BUT, this is Thailand, and in my opinion, paying rent here is a solid financial decision, especially when you put the purchase capital into a western bank and it makes more than enough money in interest to cover the rent here, and that capital is available to you at any time.

Which Western bank are you talking about. I haven't seen any that have interest rates high enough to cover rent here. And what about inflation? Over the years the interest you get will cover less and less of the rent. And you also have currency fluctuations to deal with. Could go in your favour, but what if it goes 50% against you in the next 10 years. If you intend to live in Thailand for the rest of your life it makes much more sense to buy a property.

I think you worry far to much about getting a property confiscated? How often does that actually happen? I've never heard it happen with anyone who bought a condo. The only places I've heard about it is where the property is built in the wrong place (e.g. in a national park) or where the land has been bought illegally (e.g. setting up a company specifically to around laws that don't allow you to own land). Stick to the laws and you'll be ok.

Build a property in a national park in the UK and I can guarantee you that it will get demolished much more quickly than here. In the UK, properties have recently been demolished because they were 6" to high and 6" too wide. That is the reality in the UK. And in Spain, tens of thousands of properties have been demolished. The buyers did everything correctly in these cases but didn't get any compensation. So that is the West for you.

I think you spend too much time listening to the Thailand knockers on here and need to get out into the real world and meet some real people who have bought property and live happy lives, free from any hassle.

But I would advise you against buying anything in Thailand because it would be far too stressful for you worrying about could happen.

Dave, your posts remind me a lot of a member who was recently banned.

Firstly, if inflation goes up, interest rates go up. Basic Economics-101.

Ok, so, I have a few offshore bank accounts, but I have picked a bank in this region. Click on the below link and you will see one of the bigger banks in Australia is offering 5% with interest paid monthly. The Australian Government guarantees all deposits under $1,000,000AUD. A deposit into this bank is extremely safe.

http://www.westpac.c...rm-deposits/#s3

All the other Australian banks are offering pretty similar, so, no need to provide their links.

I had a quick look on the Siam Real Estate website. On the front page of houses to rent was this property, renting for 20,000 baht a month. (I have never seen this property - I have no interests in this property - I have not reseached this property) I am simply using this property as an example.

http://www.siamreale...y-home-chalong/

If I was to rent the above property, I have no taxes to pay, no major maintainence to pay, no risk in the property market here, no risk of the property title being genuine, I can move whenever I want - especially if a factory opens up next door or a chicken farm, I do not have a diminishing lease (30 years decreasing) I have no legal fees/company set up fees to pay for purchase, I do not have an asset that is decreasing in value due to age, I can leave my $153,000US to my children upon my death.

Let's do the maths.

20,000 x 12 = 240,000 baht per year rent

4,800,000 x 5% = 240,000 per year in interest

4,800,000 baht = $153,000US = 96,500 British Pounds = €122,000

This is the minimum deposit/investment required to pay for your rent, each month. I would suggest a high majority of expats, after working all their life and qualifying for a pension/superannuation payout, and selling their house/car/furtinure/business etc etc to retire here, would be able to raise a lot more than the minimum required just to cover the rent here.

Now, here's a property in the same area, for close to the same money as required to have your interest pay for renting a similar, possibly nicer property.

http://www.siamreale...-swimming-pool/

If I was to purchase this property, it will sit on land I can never own, I have to pay legal fees for the purchase and company set up, I have to pay taxes, I have to pay maintainence and repairs, I would have to sell if I want to move - extremely difficult if a chicken farm gets built next door, every year that passes my 30 years is decreasing, upon my death my children - if they are on the land title - are left with the problem of dealing with agents for selling the property- and the problem of getting the proceeds of the sale out of Thailand, I am exposed to property market, I may only live for 10 years - so I have forgone 20 years of what I have paid for (the older retiree may consider this)

So, given the above, renting represents a solid financial decision for me, and I would suggest many others, and has absolutely nothing to do with how "stressful" property ownership for me here would be.

Firstly, I've never been banned from here.

Yes, renting sounds better for you. Buying is not better than renting in all circumstances. And renting is not better than buying in all circumstances. It depends on the circumstances. also, your example is about only having a 30-year lease if you bought. If you bought a condo, it would have value in 20-30 years time. So to take you example, but make it a condo instead. In 20 years time it might be worth 10m baht. But if you rent you just have your 5m on deposit. So you will have 5m less than you could have had. Also, you are dreaming if you think the rent will still be 20k per month in 20 years time. I don't know any country in the world where the rent today is the same as it was 20 years ago. Also, what happened if the currency exchange goes against you and you only get 10k baht a month from your deposit. If you have cash and you buy a condo it is yours and you don't have rent to worry about for the rest of your life. Although you do have maintenance fees, etc. But each to his own. At the moment I'm renting and happy with it. But I wouldn't be happy to rent for 20-30 years or more.

If I decided to stay here for the rest of my life I'd buy a property for the simple reason that I'd want to renovate it (or build it) to my exact requirements. There are some great rental properties, but I've never seen one that is exactly what I want. The only times in my life when I've had a near perfect property is when I renovated it myself. Maybe I am more fussy than most, but that is what suits me. Even if it cost a little more I wouldn't care.

You can't "buy" what you can never own. In Thailand, for a farang, it's as simple as that, when it comes to land.

NamKangMan · September 1, 2012

Simply don't buy or invest in Thailand.

It's a simple rule.

You broke rule number one.

Never mention the words "invest" and "Thailand" in the same sentence.

So are you saying that Starbucks, McDonalds, DHL, FedEx and all the other US companies should pack up and only invest their money in the US. I'm sure they have much more experience in investing here than both you and me and they are happy to invest here. These companies just get on with it and invest. Thailand would be a very sad and poor country if everyone took your attitude. There is money to be made here and both companies and individuals are making money. That is a fact.

More individuals are losing it than making. That is a fact. :) There are a lot of "donations" being made to bamboo plantations here. :) There is a big erence between an "investment" and a "donation." :) :)

jocko · September 1, 2012

What is the long term bank interest rate in Thailand?

LivinginKata · September 1, 2012

What is the long term bank interest rate in Thailand?

Next to nothing in a regular savings account. At the best 4% in a long term (least a year) mutual fund.

givenall · September 1, 2012

Ridiculous. They should have either sorted this out in 1984, or if it's found that the authorities illegally allowed this to be built, then the corrupt officials should be jailed. If the paperwork is in order then it's not the builder or owner that should suffer. Same is happening in Spain. The only people that suffer seem to be the owners and not the corrupt officials.

If you had followed this a bit, you'd know that they are also going after the corrupt officials. What's going to come of it remains to be seen.

How can he own land anyways

sent from-would like to know

pagallim · September 1, 2012

Ridiculous. They should have either sorted this out in 1984, or if it's found that the authorities illegally allowed this to be built, then the corrupt officials should be jailed. If the paperwork is in order then it's not the builder or owner that should suffer. Same is happening in Spain. The only people that suffer seem to be the owners and not the corrupt officials.

If you had followed this a bit, you'd know that they are also going after the corrupt officials. What's going to come of it remains to be seen.

How can he own land anyways

sent from-would like to know

He doesn't. The 'other' online news site quotes the leader of the investigation team as saying the expat has a 30 year lease.

KhunMoo · September 3, 2012

It's so easy and cheap to rent here - that buying your own house/condo here is idiotic.
It's not at all idiotic to buy a condo here. If you are here long-term it makes sense, as you are able to renovate to suit your own style. I rent at the moment, but there are always things about rental properties that I would like to change but can't. I will buy here one day. I don't see what's idiotic about it. What is idiotic is claiming that buying a house/condo is idiotic. It may not suit everyone, but it does suit some.

Let me clarify, if you want it with a spoon - there are probably dozen scumbag, Farang real-estate agentes, in here that will disagree but the facts is:

People buying 1-2-3 room condo's here, at 3 to 30 million, baht are NOT making a good investment here, prices are, atm around 100k+ BHT/SQM that is NOT good investment, if you look into:

1. The general state of Thai-economy.

2. Average Joe's buying power atm.

3. The amount of new units being build in BKK area.

4. Especially the state of renovation, of already completed projects (They simply do not keep up to standards).

5. Take a look at a normal building project in Bangkok, and look into, how many of the initial investors(People laying down the cash, when first brick is laid down) are still there - even when the project opens, for people moving in - that is normally a solid evidence for, a good investment. In BKK, these unites has changed hands 3 times before someone even moves in ;-)

Only reason the market doesn't crash hard, is that many units are bought with cash...and sometimes i seriously talk "cash"...in a bag. - Let the hi-so Thai/Chinese burn their pocket money, with projects as, "see daddy i'm now a investor" - fine by me.

The rest of you posts also prove, that you have no clue about, what you are talking about. Buying land etc...i have one word for you in Thai: Juut puut, khrap.

But yeah, front me on this one i give you a million examples, of people loosing their savings here....on the real.estate marked.

Edited September 3, 2012 by KhunMoo

davejones · September 4, 2012

It's so easy and cheap to rent here - that buying your own house/condo here is idiotic.
It's not at all idiotic to buy a condo here. If you are here long-term it makes sense, as you are able to renovate to suit your own style. I rent at the moment, but there are always things about rental properties that I would like to change but can't. I will buy here one day. I don't see what's idiotic about it. What is idiotic is claiming that buying a house/condo is idiotic. It may not suit everyone, but it does suit some.

Let me clarify, if you want it with a spoon - there are probably dozen scumbag, Farang real-estate agentes, in here that will disagree but the facts is:

People buying 1-2-3 room condo's here, at 3 to 30 million, baht are NOT making a good investment here, prices are, atm around 100k+ BHT/SQM that is NOT good investment, if you look into:

1. The general state of Thai-economy.

2. Average Joe's buying power atm.

3. The amount of new units being build in BKK area.

4. Especially the state of renovation, of already completed projects (They simply do not keep up to standards).

5. Take a look at a normal building project in Bangkok, and look into, how many of the initial investors(People laying down the cash, when first brick is laid down) are still there - even when the project opens, for people moving in - that is normally a solid evidence for, a good investment. In BKK, these unites has changed hands 3 times before someone even moves in ;-)

Only reason the market doesn't crash hard, is that many units are bought with cash...and sometimes i seriously talk "cash"...in a bag. - Let the hi-so Thai/Chinese burn their pocket money, with projects as, "see daddy i'm now a investor" - fine by me.

The rest of you posts also prove, that you have no clue about, what you are talking about. Buying land etc...i have one word for you in Thai: Juut puut, khrap.

But yeah, front me on this one i give you a million examples, of people loosing their savings here....on the real.estate marked.

I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying here. For example, I also think condos are overpriced in Bangkok and I think the market is massively oversupplied. I have made many posts on Thai Visa stating this. Regarding your average joe comment, that depends on the market. Some markets (e.g.central London) have prices way out of the average Joe for the simple reason that the average joe doesn't buy in that market, because it is too expensive for them. Buyers in those markets tend to be cash-rich people. I'm not claiming BKK is the same as London, but it's a global city and has a different real estate market to a provincial town.

But if I buy eventually in Bangkok, I will be buying a home and not an investment. There is a big difference. What you're saying is like saying people shouldn't buy cars because they are a bad investment (which they are). The go down in value from the day you buy them.

Also, you say lots of people have lost money in the Bangkok property market. I totally agree with you. I also agree with that buying a new condo is very often a waste of money. But it depends on the condo building and the location. Are you saying that there's no a single condo building in the whole of Bangkok that isn't well-built, well-kept and increasing in value? The building I live in at the moment is about 7 years old and is in fantastic condition, very well maintained indeed and is completely sold out. It is also fairly rare to have any units for rent. A unit in this building would make a good investment, in my opinion.

So you are right that many (maybe even most) have lost money in the property market here, but some have also made money. Buy in a great location, where land is scarce and there won't be any new condo buildings.

I think you are missing my point, so let me clarify. I don't think BKK is a market where it's easy to make profits on condos. I would rather buy in London if I was after capital appreciation or even rental income. But I would certainly buy here if I planned to stay 10 years+. I would also buy for investment if the right opportunity came up - a distressed seller in a great condo in a great location. How couldn't that be a good investment? The people you are talking about that lose money have no idea about property investment. Most of my wealth has come from property that I have help long-term (10-30 years) and I certainly know what I'm doing. Which is why I haven't bought here. But there are opportunities in every market - you just have to find them. And they are much harder to find here. But that doesn't mean they don't exist. And finally, I don't buy my properties from estate agents and never have. And even if I didn't I wouldn't tend to believe what an estate agent says anyway, because they have a vested interest in selling.

TwoDogz · September 4, 2012

It's so easy and cheap to rent here - that buying your own house/condo here is idiotic.
It's not at all idiotic to buy a condo here. If you are here long-term it makes sense, as you are able to renovate to suit your own style. I rent at the moment, but there are always things about rental properties that I would like to change but can't. I will buy here one day. I don't see what's idiotic about it. What is idiotic is claiming that buying a house/condo is idiotic. It may not suit everyone, but it does suit some.

Let me clarify, if you want it with a spoon - there are probably dozen scumbag, Farang real-estate agentes, in here that will disagree but the facts is:

People buying 1-2-3 room condo's here, at 3 to 30 million, baht are NOT making a good investment here, prices are, atm around 100k+ BHT/SQM that is NOT good investment, if you look into:

1. The general state of Thai-economy.

2. Average Joe's buying power atm.

3. The amount of new units being build in BKK area.

4. Especially the state of renovation, of already completed projects (They simply do not keep up to standards).

5. Take a look at a normal building project in Bangkok, and look into, how many of the initial investors(People laying down the cash, when first brick is laid down) are still there - even when the project opens, for people moving in - that is normally a solid evidence for, a good investment. In BKK, these unites has changed hands 3 times before someone even moves in ;-)

Only reason the market doesn't crash hard, is that many units are bought with cash...and sometimes i seriously talk "cash"...in a bag. - Let the hi-so Thai/Chinese burn their pocket money, with projects as, "see daddy i'm now a investor" - fine by me.

The rest of you posts also prove, that you have no clue about, what you are talking about. Buying land etc...i have one word for you in Thai: Juut puut, khrap.

But yeah, front me on this one i give you a million examples, of people loosing their savings here....on the real.estate marked.

Not all have lost.

davejones · September 4, 2012

Simply don't buy or invest in Thailand.

It's a simple rule.

You broke rule number one.

Never mention the words "invest" and "Thailand" in the same sentence.

SET index up from around 400 to around 1200 in last 3.5 years. Tripling your money in 3.5 years seems like a pretty good investment to me. And before you say it, yes you can lose money investing in stocks and maybe most people do, but that doesn't mean some people can't make money that way. Much better return than US, UK.

NamKangMan · September 4, 2012

Simply don't buy or invest in Thailand.

It's a simple rule.

You broke rule number one.

Never mention the words "invest" and "Thailand" in the same sentence.

SET index up from around 400 to around 1200 in last 3.5 years. Tripling your money in 3.5 years seems like a pretty good investment to me. And before you say it, yes you can lose money investing in stocks and maybe most people do, but that doesn't mean some people can't make money that way. Much better return than US, UK.

Very convenient for you that your figures represent, exactly, post Global Financial Crisis (GFC). Just about every stock exchange in every county, around the world, managed to "climb out of the toilet" to some degree, in the last few years since the GFC.

How about you quote some figures pre-GFC? :) :)

Anyway, why would a 65 year old newly retired western guy "buy" anything on Phuket when their interest covers their rent and they are not exposed to the many risks of property ownership here?

At 65, why would they "invest?" They can enjoy their retirement with the fruits of their labour they have gained throughout their working life.

The chances of them survivng another 30 years (the length of their land lease) which would take them to 95 years of age is very slim. The average age of a male dying is 78. So, let's say 80. He get's 15 years use of his 30 years and leaves his kids, if they are on the lease, a huge problem of trying to liquidate a foreign property and getting the proceeds out of the country.

An "investment" with so many risks and so much exposure, and so many restrictions, due to your nationality, is hardly an "investment" at all.

NamKangMan · September 4, 2012

It's so easy and cheap to rent here - that buying your own house/condo here is idiotic.
It's not at all idiotic to buy a condo here. If you are here long-term it makes sense, as you are able to renovate to suit your own style. I rent at the moment, but there are always things about rental properties that I would like to change but can't. I will buy here one day. I don't see what's idiotic about it. What is idiotic is claiming that buying a house/condo is idiotic. It may not suit everyone, but it does suit some.

Let me clarify, if you want it with a spoon - there are probably dozen scumbag, Farang real-estate agentes, in here that will disagree but the facts is:

People buying 1-2-3 room condo's here, at 3 to 30 million, baht are NOT making a good investment here, prices are, atm around 100k+ BHT/SQM that is NOT good investment, if you look into:

1. The general state of Thai-economy.

2. Average Joe's buying power atm.

3. The amount of new units being build in BKK area.

4. Especially the state of renovation, of already completed projects (They simply do not keep up to standards).

5. Take a look at a normal building project in Bangkok, and look into, how many of the initial investors(People laying down the cash, when first brick is laid down) are still there - even when the project opens, for people moving in - that is normally a solid evidence for, a good investment. In BKK, these unites has changed hands 3 times before someone even moves in ;-)

Only reason the market doesn't crash hard, is that many units are bought with cash...and sometimes i seriously talk "cash"...in a bag. - Let the hi-so Thai/Chinese burn their pocket money, with projects as, "see daddy i'm now a investor" - fine by me.

The rest of you posts also prove, that you have no clue about, what you are talking about. Buying land etc...i have one word for you in Thai: Juut puut, khrap.

But yeah, front me on this one i give you a million examples, of people loosing their savings here....on the real.estate marked.

Not all have lost.

I agree that some have made money here, in property, in the past, however, I would argue that those days are over.

A quick look at one real estate agent's website, Siam Real Estate, shows, currently, they have 452 houses for sale and 199 condos for sale, on Phuket.

Why so many for sale, if property is such a good investment, either for a capital gain, or for renting out????

How long have the majority of these properties been on the market, waiting for a buyer????

It looks like these owners are going to be the ones left "holding the can."

That time was always coming. It looks like it's here now.

davejones · September 4, 2012

Simply don't buy or invest in Thailand.

It's a simple rule.

You broke rule number one.

Never mention the words "invest" and "Thailand" in the same sentence.

SET index up from around 400 to around 1200 in last 3.5 years. Tripling your money in 3.5 years seems like a pretty good investment to me. And before you say it, yes you can lose money investing in stocks and maybe most people do, but that doesn't mean some people can't make money that way. Much better return than US, UK.

Very convenient for you that your figures represent, exactly, post Global Financial Crisis (GFC). Just about every stock exchange in every county, around the world, managed to "climb out of the toilet" to some degree, in the last few years since the GFC.

How about you quote some figures pre-GFC?

Anyway, why would a 65 year old newly retired western guy "buy" anything on Phuket when their interest covers their rent and they are not exposed to the many risks of property ownership here?

At 65, why would they "invest?" They can enjoy their retirement with the fruits of their labour they have gained throughout their working life.

The chances of them survivng another 30 years (the length of their land lease) which would take them to 95 years of age is very slim. The average age of a male dying is 78. So, let's say 80. He get's 15 years use of his 30 years and leaves his kids, if they are on the lease, a huge problem of trying to liquidate a foreign property and getting the proceeds out of the country.

An "investment" with so many risks and so much exposure, and so many restrictions, due to your nationality, is hardly an "investment" at all.

Since when are we discussing 65-year olds? Regarding post-GFC, what is wrong with that? If you can triple your money in Thailand during that period, then it is a good investment. US/UK didn't get anywhere near those gains.

It's a fact that many companies make good profits in Thailand. I don't know how you can be even disputing it.

If I was 65 I'd still buy property if I was going to live in it for the rest of my life for the simple reason that I'd want the final years of my life to be in a property that I was completely happy with. And if I died a year later, so what. I ca't take my money with me when I die.

Edited September 4, 2012 by davejones

davejones · September 4, 2012

I agree that some have made money here, in property, in the past, however, I would argue that those days are over.

A quick look at one real estate agent's website, Siam Real Estate, shows, currently, they have 452 houses for sale and 199 condos for sale, on Phuket.

Why so many for sale, if property is such a good investment, either for a capital gain, or for renting out????

How long have the majority of these properties been on the market, waiting for a buyer????

It looks like these owners are going to be the ones left "holding the can."

That time was always coming. It looks like it's here now.

Yes, I agree with this as well. But even in a market like this you can still find very distressed buyers and make money on the deal.

I think we are in general agreement about the property market here. The only things we differ on are...

1) I think you can still find good deals, even though they are hard to find.

2) I would buy if I stayed long-term, but that is my choice. It would be a home not an investment. That's a very important distinction. I would even pay above market price for the perfect home in the perfect location if I had to. Making a profit doesn't matter to me in those circumstances. But would I do the same for an investment? No way.

F1fanatic · September 4, 2012

It's so easy and cheap to rent here - that buying your own house/condo here is idiotic.
It's not at all idiotic to buy a condo here. If you are here long-term it makes sense, as you are able to renovate to suit your own style. I rent at the moment, but there are always things about rental properties that I would like to change but can't. I will buy here one day. I don't see what's idiotic about it. What is idiotic is claiming that buying a house/condo is idiotic. It may not suit everyone, but it does suit some.

Let me clarify, if you want it with a spoon - there are probably dozen scumbag, Farang real-estate agentes, in here that will disagree but the facts is:

People buying 1-2-3 room condo's here, at 3 to 30 million, baht are NOT making a good investment here, prices are, atm around 100k+ BHT/SQM that is NOT good investment, if you look into:

1. The general state of Thai-economy.

2. Average Joe's buying power atm.

3. The amount of new units being build in BKK area.

4. Especially the state of renovation, of already completed projects (They simply do not keep up to standards).

5. Take a look at a normal building project in Bangkok, and look into, how many of the initial investors(People laying down the cash, when first brick is laid down) are still there - even when the project opens, for people moving in - that is normally a solid evidence for, a good investment. In BKK, these unites has changed hands 3 times before someone even moves in ;-)

Only reason the market doesn't crash hard, is that many units are bought with cash...and sometimes i seriously talk "cash"...in a bag. - Let the hi-so Thai/Chinese burn their pocket money, with projects as, "see daddy i'm now a investor" - fine by me.

The rest of you posts also prove, that you have no clue about, what you are talking about. Buying land etc...i have one word for you in Thai: Juut puut, khrap.

But yeah, front me on this one i give you a million examples, of people loosing their savings here....on the real.estate marked.

Not all have lost.

I'm sure you're right but... the wrong set of circumstances and it is v easy to lose.

I lost my life savings this way. Having bought a 30 year lease, I thought I was safe as it was all legal - bad mistake

davejones · September 4, 2012

I'm sure you're right but... the wrong set of circumstances and it is v easy to lose.

I lost my life savings this way. Having bought a 30 year lease, I thought I was safe as it was all legal - bad mistake

I'm sorry to hear about your lost savings, but it's never wise so invest everything you have into one asset.

Just because something is legal doesn't mean you can't lose money. And that is true everywhere. But Thailand still has some great investment opportunities. That is why so many international companies come here. Do you think they would come if they were all losing money?

TwoDogz · September 4, 2012

I'm sure you're right but... the wrong set of circumstances and it is v easy to lose.

I lost my life savings this way. Having bought a 30 year lease, I thought I was safe as it was all legal - bad mistake

I would not like to be in them shoes.

But I do not think I ever would, nobody should sink their life savings into a foreign country

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