All Silent On 'insecticide' Causing Deaths Of Canadian Sisters: Phi Phi Island

[Soutpeel]

i recall in india about 30 years ago over 1000 people going blind because too much of something was added to a local made hooch ....same thing used to happen in prohibition in the usa ..the most strident voices for lifting prohibition were doctors ...they wanted some standard in the quality of the grog

It was/is due to the methanol in the booze, its not an addtion, is the way the booze is distilled and is usually found in the first 200ml or so when the distilled product starts flowing is typically high in methanol, reputable companies normally throw the inital product away, this is the reason why home distilling your booze is illegal in most countries

Edited September 5, 2012 by Soutpeel

[maidu]

There's a growing problem in the US with 'designer drugs' coming in from (mostly) india. They're packaged as 'bath salts' but cost much more than bath salts ordinarily cost. I mention this because it's possible one of the ingredients of those mixes, which change often, is deet. Deet trees grow in India.

there are specialist US FDA officials who spend all their working hours trying to decipher the ingredients for the latest drugs, in order to try and assist criminal prosecuters and cops detect it.

Thailand should have a task force which specifically targets such drug mixes as the 4 X 100 or whatever other names such mixes go by. When ordinarily healthy young women get sick and die (4 thus far, we've heard about) within hours, that's gravely serious. How many cases go unreported (sick people going to hospitals, or falling off a boat, or .....?) There are several unsolved cases in that region: A farang young man with green bluejeans was found floating in the sea near Phuket. A woman was found drowned off a beach in Krabi town, still had her gold necklace. A Belgian man died mysteriously in Phuket, ......the list goes on.

The designer drugs coming out of India and China are neither new or related to deet in any way they are simply chemicals that are not currently banned there for can slip through the customs and legality net, that or modified versions of stuff that is banned so as to also slip through in the same manor. Deet trees may grow in India and some of these chemicals come from India but that is the only link, its a bit like suggesting chilis grow in India so there is chili coming over in these designer bath salts. Its just a loophole that is being exploited and in no way relivant to this link.

p.s having just looked at wikipedia deet aint even a plant which makes yer post even futher from the truth.

My mistake on that one point. It turns out the insecticide I mentioned is from Neem trees (a four letter word with double-E and rhymes with deet). My memory didn't serve me perfectly on that.

[Jayman]

https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/scopolamine/scopolamine.shtml

Is that the stuff some are saying is the culprit that causes toxicology reports to show DEET in your system?

[KeyserSoze01]

When did insecticide come into this story? There was no mention of insecticide before, only DEET a insect repellant.

I will assume another poor reporting job.

Yup. Sad, isn't it?

Is it a giant leap of faith to draw the conclusion that insecticide = insect repellent? I think not.

[Jayman]

When did insecticide come into this story? There was no mention of insecticide before, only DEET a insect repellant.

I will assume another poor reporting job.

Yup. Sad, isn't it?

Is it a giant leap of faith to draw the conclusion that insecticide = insect repellent? I think not.

http://www.alibaba.c...nsecticide.html

who is trying to say that DEET is NOT an insecticide?

http://www.alibaba.c...ide_99_min.html

Maybe they should get in touch with the DEET manufacturers and inform them as well.

Diethyl Toluamide

CAS #: 134-62-3

Categories: Insecticides

Description:

NOMENCLATURE

Common name: Diethyltoluamide

IUPAC name: N,N-diethyl-m-toluamide

Other names: DEET; N,N-Diethyl-3-Methylbenzamide; Diethyl Toluamide; Diethyl-M-Toluamide; 3-Methyl-N,N-Diethylbenzamide

PHYSICAL CHEMISTRY

Purity: 99% min.

Appearance: achromatic or amber color liquid.

S.g./density: 0.992~0.999/25,

V.p: <0.01 mm Hg @25,

B.p: 291.7 at 760 mm Hg,

F.p: 155. Solubility: Soluble in most organic Solvents. Insoluble in water.

APPLICATIONS

Uses: Used as an insect repellent, as a resin solvent and in film formers. It is also used to impregnate clothing and as a leech repellent.

MAMMALIAN TOXICOLOGY

Draize test, rabbit, eye: 10 mg Moderate; Draize test, rabbit, skin: 500 mg Moderate; Inhalation, rat: LC₅₀ = 5950 mg/m³; Oral, mouse: LD₅₀ = 1470 mg/kg; Oral, rabbit: LD₅₀ = 1584 mg/kg; Oral, rat: LD₅₀ = 1950 mg/kg; Skin, rabbit: LD₅₀ = 3180 uL/kg; Skin, rat: LD₅₀ = 5 gm/kg

ECOTOXICOLOGY

Fish toxicity: LC₅₀ (96 hr) cichlid 120-150 ppm. After 96 hours, glutathione levels in liver, kidney and gills were raised. Invertebrate toxicity: EC₅₀ (5 min) Photobacterium phosphoreum 67.9 ppm Microtox test.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Jayman

[transam]

Jeez, you guys have obviously not been around much. Adding insecticide to give an extra "kick" to homemade alcohol is a rampant practice in Southeast Asia.

It's so bad in Cambodia (let's not even talk about India!!) that I refuse to drink the local hooch there. Dozens of people go blind and die in Cambodia each year.

It's a bit less of a problem in Thailand--as far as people going blind and dying--but the practice is still widespread. It is regularly added to yaa dong, sold on almost every soi in Bangkok. I learned the hard way about 8 years ago only to drink yaa dong at a vendor for which somebody can vouch for the purity of the product: once I inadvertently drank a few shots of yaa dong that was laced with insecticide...I spent the next day in bed with a pounding headache, and I luckily had someone to take care of me who knew the score. And I had no worse symptoms than that. From that time on I only drink yaa dong at vendors for whom friends attest to the quality of the product.

Anyway, insecticide in liquor is nothing new in Thailand. One should not be surprised that it got foisted on farang tourists, or that they died as a result. Sad, but not at all surprising.

Glad l don't go out for a beer with you, As you know it all, poison drinks that is.

[maidu]

For those of us who have sons or daughters of travel-on-their-own age, it's yet another things to caution them about. Along with all the other cautions, we should now tell them something like; "be very careful about what sorts of drinks might get offered to you, particularly in exotic places like Thai island bungalo bars. It might contain concentrated insecticide."

What's next? .....rat poison mixed with beer? Did I hear someone say...."Hey dude, don't knock it if you haven't tried it"

[Jayman]

For those of us who have sons or daughters of travel-on-their-own age, it's yet another things to caution them about. Along with all the other cautions, we should now tell them something like; "be very careful about what sorts of drinks might get offered to you, particularly in exotic places like Thai island bungalo bars. It might contain concentrated insecticide."

What's next? .....rat poison mixed with beer? Did I hear someone say...."Hey dude, don't knock it if you haven't tried it"

As time goes on the worry of consuming contaminated food is only going to increase. And this is not so much intentional contamination but a result of all the chemicals that are being used in our environment.

Take mercury in fish as an example.. no one is intentionally poisoning the fish you eat with toxic mercury.. but you really should be concerned with where the fish you are consuming was farmed from.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Jayman

[maidu]

I've known people who drink fermented sugar drinks, get hooked, and get so wasted they die or, go home and beat their wives.

But we can't ban alcoholic drinks, because that's the recreational drug of choice for most reading this, and most legislators. Majority rules.

[Genericnic]

Makes a big difference. DEET isnt all that scary. Its only been around for 50 years, billions of applications and you can almost count the number of deaths from it on your hands and feet.

http://www.atsdr.cdc...th-effects.html

Not sure being used as a drink additive is one of the approved uses.

I know we did some crazy stuff in the 60s but I think this has us beat hands down.

David

[catweazle]

Am I having a Déjà vu ?

Wasn't all of this discussed a few days earlier when all details were revealed? Boredom City - here I come...

[guru]

scopolamine is reported to being used to drug and rob tourists here.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1040.html#victim

[Nam Plah]

Neither DEET, methanol nor scopolamine poisoning seem to fit with the poor girls condition when discovered, organophosphate or carbamate poisoning seems possible with the observed state of the bodies when discovered.

Moderately severe organophosphate and carbamate insecticide poisoning cases exhibit all the signs and symptoms found in mild poisonings, but in addition, the victim:

• is unable to walk;
  
• often complains of chest discomfort and tightness;
  
• exhibits marked constriction of the pupils (pinpoint pupils);
  
• exhibits muscle twitching;
  
• has involuntary urination and bowel movement.
  

Severe poisonings are indicated by incontinence, unconsciousness and seizures.

The order in which these symptoms appear may vary, depending on how contact is made with the pesticide. If the product is swallowed, stomach and other abdominal manifestations commonly appear first; if it is absorbed through the skin, gastric and respiratory symptoms tend to appear at the same time.

http://www.headlice.org/faq/treatments/signs-symptoms.htm

Symptoms of organophosphate or carbamate poisoning:

• Bladder and kidneys
  
  • Increased urination
    

  [*]Eyes, ears, nose, and throat

  • Increased salivation (drooling)
    
  • Increased tearing
    
  • Small pupils
    

  [*]Gastrointestinal

  • Abdominal cramps
    
  • Diarrhea
    
  • Loss of appetite
    
  • Nausea
    
  • Vomiting
    

  [*]Heart and blood

  • Slow heart rate
    

  [*]Lungs and airways

  • Breathing difficulty
    

  [*]Nervous system

  • Anxiety
    
  • Coma
    
  • Convulsions
    
  • Dizziness
    
  • Headache
    
  • Weakness
    

  [*]Skin

  • Blue lips and fingernails
    

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002832.htm

Noting this report below and correlating to the bedbug problems endemic in Thai hotels:

Insecticide resistance in bedbugs in Thailand and laboratory evaluation of insecticides for the control of Cimex hemipterus and Cimex lectularius (Hemiptera: Cimicidae).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21936321

Overzealous use of pesticides?

[mommysboy]

^{Makes a big difference. DEET isnt all that scary. Its only been around for 50 years, billions of applications and you can almost count the number of deaths from it on your hands and feet.}

^{http://www.atsdr.cdc...th-effects.html}

^{Not sure being used as a drink additive is one of the approved uses.}

^{I know we did some crazy stuff in the 60s but I think this has us beat hands down.}

^David

^{This is manslaughter at the very least. No excuses surely.}

^{And best not to rule out murder at this juncture.}

[NomadJoe]

When did insecticide come into this story? There was no mention of insecticide before, only DEET a insect repellant.

I will assume another poor reporting job.

Deet kills insects, so that would make it an insecticide.

Holly sh!t! there are more of you.

So sorry but deet is a insect repellant, not a bug killer. Before you look stupid like NomadJoe please do some reading. Oh to late.

Lol. Yeah I'm the one that looks stupid.

Look mate, just because it's a repellent doesn't mean it isn't also an insecticide. The two are not mutually exclusive. I used to be a sales rep for mosquito repellent among other things. But don't take my word for it, read the several links I provided. You provided a single quote from a website of a product advocacy group which works for mosquito repellent manufactures. Please tell me that isn't your sole source of your (mis)information?

[mommysboy]

When did insecticide come into this story? There was no mention of insecticide before, only DEET a insect repellant.

I will assume another poor reporting job.

Deet kills insects, so that would make it an insecticide.

Holly sh!t! there are more of you.

So sorry but deet is a insect repellant, not a bug killer. Before you look stupid like NomadJoe please do some reading. Oh to late.

Lol. Yeah I'm the one that looks stupid.

Look mate, just because it's a repellent doesn't mean it isn't also an insecticide. The two are not mutually exclusive. I used to be a sales rep for mosquito repellent among other things. But don't take my word for it, read the several links I provided. You provided a single quote from a website of a product advocacy group which works for mosquito repellent manufactures. Please tell me that isn't your sole source of your (mis)information?

Whatever it is, you don't ingest the stuff that's for sure, and if some numbnut upturns the whole bottle, then well sadly we can see the result.

I'm surprised someone could split hairs over the accuracy of a word, as if the misuse of a noun has any bearing on this terrible event.

Hope the idiot that did this gets locked up for good.

[noitom]

While everyone can appreciate and respect the family's wishes for silence about the case, the newspaper's lack of follow up on the DEET issue in general is deplorable. How can a major English newspaper publish news like this without an investigative report on something so dangerous, toxic , and risky to lives and the Thai business community? Shameful lack of journalistic standards and priorities.

[Valentine]

While everyone can appreciate and respect the family's wishes for silence about the case, the newspaper's lack of follow up on the DEET issue in general is deplorable. How can a major English newspaper publish news like this without an investigative report on something so dangerous, toxic , and risky to lives and the Thai business community? Shameful lack of journalistic standards and priorities.

All the time on television you see reporters shoving microphones under the mouths of people making statements but never see them asking any questions. It is like I am the elder person & expert therefore do not question what I say. Comes from rote learning in school. If teacher says 2+2=5 you accept without question.

[Rocky Sassoon]

When did insecticide come into this story? There was no mention of insecticide before, only DEET a insect repellant.

I will assume another poor reporting job.

Deet kills insects, so that would make it an insecticide.

Holly sh!t! there are more of you.

So sorry but deet is a insect repellant, not a bug killer. Before you look stupid like NomadJoe please do some reading. Oh to late.

Lol. Yeah I'm the one that looks stupid.

Look mate, just because it's a repellent doesn't mean it isn't also an insecticide. The two are not mutually exclusive. I used to be a sales rep for mosquito repellent among other things. But don't take my word for it, read the several links I provided. You provided a single quote from a website of a product advocacy group which works for mosquito repellent manufactures. Please tell me that isn't your sole source of your (mis)information?

http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/insecticide

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/insecticide

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/insecticide?show=0&t=1346906823

[luckyman]

a spokesperson for the hospital is not releasing any details as respect for the privacy of the family,so who was it that showed the cbc's french language news network the possible cause of death was insect repellant containing deet 3days ago.

Thais might be afraid they say something stupid and hurt the case, as I can imagine a lawsuit from the kids' parents is pending...

Edited September 6, 2012 by luckyman

[Chopperboy]

Neither DEET, methanol nor scopolamine poisoning seem to fit with the poor girls condition when discovered, organophosphate or carbamate poisoning seems possible with the observed state of the bodies when discovered.

Moderately severe organophosphate and carbamate insecticide poisoning cases exhibit all the signs and symptoms found in mild poisonings, but in addition, the victim:

Overzealous use of pesticides?

I think there is a tendency here to over estimate the dangers of commonly available chemicals that the public is likely to come in contact with - this was certainly the case with the CM deaths.

http://photo-journ.com/2011/war-of-words-over-chiang-mai-tourist-deaths-report/#axzz1VC3kUrUx

[Nam Plah]

Initial Report

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/563192-canadian-sisters-died-of-food-poisoning-in-thailand-hotel/page__hl__%20canadian%20%20sisters%20%20phi%20%20phi%20%20island

""Forensic officials found vomit in the room, blood on their lips and gums and their fingernails and toenails were blue," lieutenant colonel Rat Somboon of Krabi Provincial Police said, adding there were "signs of serious food poisoning."

Follow Up Details

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/563633-contaminated-food-may-have-killed-canadian-sisters-phi-phi-island/page__hl__%20canadian%20%20sisters%20%20phi%20%20phi%20%20island

"Dr Pornthep Siriwanarangsan, head of the Disease Control Department, said the initial investigation in the room found a large quantity of vomit and faeces. There was evidence of bleeding and their nails had turned black, probably caused by internal bleeding."

Ms. Kay's Version

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/563936-scot-left-stranded-on-phi-phi-island-after-her-canadian-friends-poisoned/page__hl__%20canadian%20%20sisters%20%20phi%20%20phi%20%20island

"Ms Kay said investigators found evidence of vomit in the hotel room and told how the sisters had skin lesions, bleeding gums and blue fingernails, which can be symptoms of poisoning."

(emphasis added)

There is no underestimating the toxicity of whatever was ingested as it proved fatal.

Whether by misadventure or through the malfeasance of a third party these girls were most likely poisoned though by what route and using which chemical is the question.

[Chopperboy]

There is no underestimating the toxicity of whatever was ingested as it proved fatal.

Whether by misadventure or through the malfeasance of a third party these girls were most likely poisoned though by what route and using which chemical is the question.

As your post indicates it seems the blood vessels broke down - this is likely to be something highly toxic.

Plant based poisons occur naturally but are amongst the most dangerous - if they didn't exist in nature they wouldn't be allowed!!

Most chemicals that are allowed for public use are quite mild.

[ttelise]

While everyone can appreciate and respect the family's wishes for silence about the case, the newspaper's lack of follow up on the DEET issue in general is deplorable. How can a major English newspaper publish news like this without an investigative report on something so dangerous, toxic , and risky to lives and the Thai business community? Shameful lack of journalistic standards and priorities.

Perhaps it was just a calculated slip of information exactly for this purpose, especially if they did out right declare Deet was s cause of death. The end result is this: people that care frustrated; and people that only care about Thailand face rejoicing.

[mommysboy]

There is no underestimating the toxicity of whatever was ingested as it proved fatal.

Whether by misadventure or through the malfeasance of a third party these girls were most likely poisoned though by what route and using which chemical is the question.

As your post indicates it seems the blood vessels broke down - this is likely to be something highly toxic.

Plant based poisons occur naturally but are amongst the most dangerous - if they didn't exist in nature they wouldn't be allowed!!

Most chemicals that are allowed for public use are quite mild.

So your line of argument is that something else is the cause of death? back to shrooms, and pufferfish, and drug misadventure then?

When this first broke as news, I wrote that barring some bizarre self harming incident, this was homicide be it manslaughter of the most inexcusable kind, or sheer murder.

To an extent, the mode of poisoning and amount used is immaterial, after all we can see the result.

There is also no 'innocent' explanation, either the sisters were exposed to a very toxic and probably highly illegal poison which could not have been intriduced in an accidental manner, or a large amount of something less toxic, eg, DEET. in a cocktail that they could knowingly have consumed but been unaware of.

Disproving one thing or another is fair game, but if the motivation is to negate that something very sinister did not happen, and that everything is normal. then I think posters need to take a good long hard look at their lives. This is not like a car accident.

Is there anyone who does not see it this way?

[maidu]

Mention of 'deet' came out 9 weeks after the sad deaths. Thai authorities, in their attempt to continually sweep the whole matter under the rug, tell us to wait and/or 'respect the family wishes' - in other words, they want us to shut up and forget about it. The father of the young women spoke up at the early stages, so I doubt he would want everyone to hush up. it's assumed he would like to get to the bottom of the mystery. It's also assumed that all the speculation here on T.Visa is done in good faith, and with similar intentions - perhaps one or two posts might shed light on the tragedy. Will it take 9 more weeks for authorities to toss out another tid-bit of info? All in all, if I were to grade Thai authorities on their handling of this case, I would give forensics a D- and give investigators an F.

[Chopperboy]

Well put! but I think its an F and an F

Edited September 11, 2012 by Chopperboy

[gk10002000]

"..heard reports.." Heard reports from who?

[Ferangled]

When did insecticide come into this story? There was no mention of insecticide before, only DEET a insect repellant.

I will assume another poor reporting job.

Deet kills insects, so that would make it an insecticide.

Holly sh!t! there are more of you.

So sorry but deet is a insect repellant, not a bug killer. Before you look stupid like NomadJoe please do some reading. Oh to late.

Lol. Yeah I'm the one that looks stupid.

Look mate, just because it's a repellent doesn't mean it isn't also an insecticide. The two are not mutually exclusive. I used to be a sales rep for mosquito repellent among other things. But don't take my word for it, read the several links I provided. You provided a single quote from a website of a product advocacy group which works for mosquito repellent manufactures. Please tell me that isn't your sole source of your (mis)information?

DEET is used as an insect repellent, not an insecticide. The words hold a clue to their meaning - insect repellent, repels, insecticide - kills, or indeed the very action of killing an insect is, by definition, insecticide (think patricide, fratricide etc, these are not descriptions of chemicals designed to kill fathers or brothers but the act of killing ones father or brother), cide coming from the latin word cidum (killing).

DEET by it's very nature does not kill insects but acts as a strong repellent. That said it has been mixed with other chemicals and used in pesticides, but DEET itself is a repellent.

On balance, the more I read up on DEET the less likely it seems that DEET would be the cause of death in these cases.

[Chicog]

I've known people who drink fermented sugar drinks, get hooked, and get so wasted they die or, go home and beat their wives.

\

Ah yes, Stella Artois.