Commission Says 'men In Black' May Have Got Cooperation From Red Shirts

[tlansford]

"Both [sides] believe they were victims. The operation by the 'men in black' were very instrumental in creating and elevating the violence with the aim of provoking the Army to use weapons against protesters and wanting to exact the loss of lives," page 184 of the report read.

...

...

An M16 was later discovered inside the temple, the report added.

Let me hear from the usual defenders of the red realm how they feel about these quotes from the article.

An M16 was later discovered inside the temple,

What, 3 days later like in Lumpini?

"with the aim of provoking the Army to use weapons against protesters and wanting to exact the loss of lives,"

In this context and without more information, this in nothing more than speculative. A lot like posters on TVF

[siampolee]

in this context and without more information, this is nothing more than speculative. A lot like the posters on TVF

Looking in the mirror are we?

I had the dubious pleasure of being in the midst of a lot of the troubles due to working in the area, .I assure you there was indeed rampant violence being displayed by the Red Shirt faction against fellow Thais and foreigners too..The collection of entry fee's so as one could enter and pass through Red Shirt enclaves to get to work etc,

The authorities did a good job at retraining themselves, warnings were ignored, action taken .Causalities in battles, witness the situation in other countries when the same situations arise. Wall Street, the London riots, the Paris riots.,

Why should the mass suffer due to the thuggish minority?

Edited September 15, 2012 by siampolee

[Moruya]

"Both [sides] believe they were victims. The operation by the 'men in black' were very instrumental in creating and elevating the violence with the aim of provoking the Army to use weapons against protesters and wanting to exact the loss of lives," page 184 of the report read.

...

...

An M16 was later discovered inside the temple, the report added.

Let me hear from the usual defenders of the red realm how they feel about these quotes from the article.

An M16 was later discovered inside the temple,

What, 3 days later like in Lumpini?

"with the aim of provoking the Army to use weapons against protesters and wanting to exact the loss of lives,"

In this context and without more information, this in nothing more than speculative. A lot like posters on TVF

What other motive could there possibly be?

[philw]

in this context and without more information, this is nothing more than speculative. A lot like the posters on TVF

Looking in the mirror are we?

I had the dubious pleasure of being in the midst of a lot of the troubles due to working in the area, .I assure you there was indeed rampant violence being displayed by the Red Shirt faction against fellow Thais and foreigners too..The collection of entry fee's so as one could enter and pass through Red Shirt enclaves to get to work etc,

The authorities did a good job at retraining themselves, warnings were ignored, action taken .Causalities in battles, witness the situation in other countries when the same situations arise. Wall Street, the London riots, the Paris riots.,

Why should the mass suffer due to the thuggish minority?

Did you get a receipt for the entry fees ??

That's quite a new one, why were you the only person in the country charged an entrance fee to a "riot, gunfight,civil war, act of rebellion, attempt to overthrow the government,armed insurrection, peaceful demonstration,gross act of terrorism ( whatever you want to call it )??????

I quite like the concept, terrorists charging fees for admission.

Would you have paid less by showing your work permit ??

Adds a kind of legitimacy, does it not ?

[phiphidon]

Would you comment on a 515 page report based on seeing a The Nation precis of it (apart from agreeing with every part that is negative wrt the UDD or PTP of course)?

"Mind you, the 'I will be in a better position to comment' doesn't give much guarantee really remembering various comments made by you and others before"

Why would that be then rubl, because I'd likely offer a different viewpoint to you? You've already prejudged me so I might as well say nothing, dare say a few on here will be relieved.

Lets see what your position is after the first results come out from the inquests.

The inquests are concentrated on 'easy' cases where it might be soldiers did the shooting which resulted in death. No real surprise, soldiers 'exchanging' fire with peaceful protesters are bound to hit something or someone every once in a while even if as Robert A. wrote they need to fire thousands on rounds

So, I can safely ignore all posts you made on/in this particular topic as you rather wait for the 515 page report? May I assume you'll wait for the English version

Assume away, it hasn't stopped you before.

[rixalex]

Unfortunately I have to say I was never more disgusted in my entire life than when I was on this forum on the 10th of April 2010,

Following the events of the evening almost real time on another famous Thai forum and reposting pictures on TV

I remember got a 7 day posting ban for telling one particular TV member to f-xxx for applauding the massacre of civilians,

To tell you the truth since then I entirely lost my hope of Farang Human Civilisation in Thailand.

But anyway even still even today they are still defending it to the very end.

I don't believe anyone would applaud the massacre of civilians, but i think people (especially those resident in Bangkok who had all this on their doorsteps) would welcome the state not rolling over and accepting complete anarchy, which is where things were headed at that time, and people knew that if the state was going to stand up to the lawlessness that had been escalating for weeks, it would not be pretty. It never is in these situations. Even in the West where they tend to have properly trained riot police, injuries and deaths still occur. Naive to think otherwise.

Should authorities fold in to whatever demands are being made, every time a situation like this occurs, so as to avoid those injuries and deaths? Well for one, the authorities in this situation had folded to a very large degree, the protesters were offered what they said they wanted, but then having been offered what they wanted, they basically replied with "but we don't believe you", meaning that really, negotiations had been a complete waste of time. A leap of faith would be needed from both sides to ever shake hands on anything. I believe in truth, many of the red shirts, including even many of its leaders, would have happily accepted the offer and gone home celebrating the feat of cutting short the government's term to a matter of months. But this sort of resolution wasn't what Thaksin was after. He not only wanted to get his party back in power, he wanted the government that had played a part in his downfall, to be completely discredited and buried forever, vindicating him and his claims of having been persecuted in the process, and what better way of discrediting a government than by showing them as ruthless savages cracking down on innocent ladies and children, and having those images broadcast around the world?

And for two, folding in to demands might in the short term save lives, but in the long term, it means that mob power gets stronger and stronger, leading to even more violence and death.

The biggest mistake the government made was in allowing the protests to get as established as they had. I understand though why they did that. They were attempting to allow free speech and to allow peaceful protest, and they knew the moment they did act to clear the area, they would be accused of being a dictatorial regime. So they stood back, and let the protest build. In hindsight i guess they should have taken the hit to their image there and then, and taken on the chin all the Amsterdamian proclamations of trampling on human rights that would have followed. Hindsight is a wonderful thing though, and perhaps they thought that if things did start getting really ugly, Thaksin's love for his people would prevail, and he would say, "ok, enough now people, go home to your families, your safety means more to me than anything".

Alas.

Even today, the role Thaksin played in all this, continues to be denied, defended and ignored... just as it was then, and just as it is now... and just as it disgusted me then, it disgusts me now.

[siampolee]

philw

Perhaps if you had been there you might have seen the truth,however your red tinted glasses distort your perception of the truth.

Why do you presume I need a work permit?

I perhaps for all you know have the same rights as a Thai due to birth circumstances thus my being here for some twenty plus years may well be somewhat different to that of a guest status that many others have

.Dual Nationality is indeed a useful asset..

.Never presume it shows your ongoing small mind set

Edited September 15, 2012 by siampolee

[philw]

Unfortunately I have to say I was never more disgusted in my entire life than when I was on this forum on the 10th of April 2010,

Following the events of the evening almost real time on another famous Thai forum and reposting pictures on TV

I remember got a 7 day posting ban for telling one particular TV member to f-xxx for applauding the massacre of civilians,

To tell you the truth since then I entirely lost my hope of Farang Human Civilisation in Thailand.

But anyway even still even today they are still defending it to the very end.

I don't believe anyone would applaud the massacre of civilians, but i think people (especially those resident in Bangkok who had all this on their doorsteps) would welcome the state not rolling over and accepting complete anarchy, which is where things were headed at that time, and people knew that if the state was going to stand up to the lawlessness that had been escalating for weeks, it would not be pretty. It never is in these situations. Even in the West where they tend to have properly trained riot police, injuries and deaths still occur. Naive to think otherwise.

Should authorities fold in to whatever demands are being made, every time a situation like this occurs, so as to avoid those injuries and deaths? Well for one, the authorities in this situation had folded to a very large degree, the protesters were offered what they said they wanted, but then having been offered what they wanted, they basically replied with "but we don't believe you", meaning that really, negotiations had been a complete waste of time. A leap of faith would be needed from both sides to ever shake hands on anything. I believe in truth, many of the red shirts, including even many of its leaders, would have happily accepted the offer and gone home celebrating the feat of cutting short the government's term to a matter of months. But this sort of resolution wasn't what Thaksin was after. He not only wanted to get his party back in power, he wanted the government that had played a part in his downfall, to be completely discredited and buried forever, vindicating him and his claims of having been persecuted in the process, and what better way of discrediting a government than by showing them as ruthless savages cracking down on innocent ladies and children, and having those images broadcast around the world?

And for two, folding in to demands might in the short term save lives, but in the long term, it means that mob power gets stronger and stronger, leading to even more violence and death.

The biggest mistake the government made was in allowing the protests to get as established as they had. I understand though why they did that. They were attempting to allow free speech and to allow peaceful protest, and they knew the moment they did act to clear the area, they would be accused of being a dictatorial regime. So they stood back, and let the protest build. In hindsight i guess they should have taken the hit to their image there and then, and taken on the chin all the Amsterdamian proclamations of trampling on human rights that would have followed. Hindsight is a wonderful thing though, and perhaps they thought that if things did start getting really ugly, Thaksin's love for his people would prevail, and he would say, "ok, enough now people, go home to your families, your safety means more to me than anything".

Alas.

Even today, the role Thaksin played in all this, continues to be denied, defended and ignored... just as it was then, and just as it is now... and just as it disgusted me then, it disgusts me now.

What about the entrance fees ??

Did you have to pay also ??

[phiphidon]

I'm stating for the record that if you are going to quote me or anyone else, then learn to quote properly.

It's not difficult, but if it is for you, then provide the specific link to a specific post (available by right clicking on the post number).

Additionally, as you're apparently unaware, posts can't be deleted 10 months after they are written.

.

Did you read my reply? Presumably not. The links to your quotes are provided. They prove that you change your viewpoint to suit your purpose but we already knew that. There are a lot of things about this forum I am unaware of.

[rixalex]

What about the entrance fees ??

Did you have to pay also ??

Why did you quote all my text to then ask completely unrelated questions that had nothing to do with my comments?

Anyway, no. The areas that i passed through, not by choice but by way of going about my day's business, seemed more interested in getting my money by the selling of stuff like Thaksin face masks and foot clappers. Judging by the number of farangs i saw tagging along with what looked like teeraks and in-laws, and dressed up in all this crap, i think they did well enough out of farangs without the sort of extortion that siampolee experienced.

How about you Phil? Did they manage to relieve you of your hard earnt Baht?

[philw]

philw

Perhaps if you had been there you might have seen the truth,however your red tinted glasses distort your perception of the truth.

Why do you presume I need a work permit?

I perhaps for all you know have the same rights as a Thai due to birth circumstances thus my being here for some twenty plus years may well be somewhat different to that of a guest status that many others have

.Dual Nationality is indeed a useful asset..

.Never presume it shows your ongoing small mind set

Quite right, presumptions do indeed show a small mind set.

Now, about the fees you say you were charged by the red shirts.

How much and for what, why and when ??

[philw]

What about the entrance fees ??

Did you have to pay also ??

Why did you quote all my text to then ask completely unrelated questions that had nothing to do with my comments?

Anyway, no. The areas that i passed through, not by choice but by way of going about my day's business, seemed more interested in getting my money by the selling of stuff like Thaksin face masks and foot clappers. Judging by the number of farangs i saw tagging along with what looked like teeraks and in-laws, and dressed up in all this crap, i think they did well enough out of farangs without the sort of extortion that siampolee experienced.

How about you Phil? Did they manage to relieve you of your hard earnt Baht?

Er........NO.

And you ???

How much ???

Edited September 15, 2012 by philw

[chotthee]

"Both [sides] believe they were victims. The operation by the 'men in black' were very instrumental in creating and elevating the violence with the aim of provoking the Army to use weapons against protesters and wanting to exact the loss of lives," page 184 of the report read.

...

...

An M16 was later discovered inside the temple, the report added.

Let me hear from the usual defenders of the red realm how they feel about these quotes from the article.

An M16 was later discovered inside the temple,

What, 3 days later like in Lumpini?

"with the aim of provoking the Army to use weapons against protesters and wanting to exact the loss of lives,"

In this context and without more information, this in nothing more than speculative. A lot like posters on TVF

An M16 was later discovered inside the temple,

An M16 was later planted inside the temple,

Which is more true?

[rixalex]

Er........NO.

And you ???

How much ???

Which part of

Anyway, no.

did you struggle with?

[rixalex]

An M16 was later discovered inside the temple,

An M16 was later planted inside the temple,

Which is more true?

The first one i would say because who would be stupid enough to think that an M16 could grow?

[Buchholz]

I'm stating for the record that if you are going to quote me or anyone else, then learn to quote properly.

It's not difficult, but if it is for you, then provide the specific link to a specific post (available by right clicking on the post number).

Additionally, as you're apparently unaware, posts can't be deleted 10 months after they are written.

.

Did you read my reply? Presumably not. The links to your quotes are provided. They prove that you change your viewpoint to suit your purpose but we already knew that. There are a lot of things about this forum I am unaware of.

What it proves is that in addition to being unaware of the forum's functioning, you're also unaware of the concept of sarcasm and how a sarcastic comment may seem to conflict with a subsequent serious comment if only one is take the first one as non-sarcastic.

However, it only seems that way for people unfamiliar with sarcasm.

p.s. the "links" you provided are not links to my quotes. You provided a single link to the OP of the thread.

p.s.s. I did read your reply.

.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Buchholz

[philw]

I'm stating for the record that if you are going to quote me or anyone else, then learn to quote properly.

It's not difficult, but if it is for you, then provide the specific link to a specific post (available by right clicking on the post number).

Additionally, as you're apparently unaware, posts can't be deleted 10 months after they are written.

.

Did you read my reply? Presumably not. The links to your quotes are provided. They prove that you change your viewpoint to suit your purpose but we already knew that. There are a lot of things about this forum I am unaware of.

What it proves is that in addition to being unaware of the forum's functioning, you're also unaware of the concept of sarcasm and how a sarcastic comment may seem to conflict with a subsequent serious comment if only one is take the first one as non-sarcastic.

However, it only seems that way for people unfamiliar with sarcasm.

p.s. the "links" you provided are not links to my quotes. You provided a single link to the OP of the thread.

p.s.s. I did read your reply.

.

Thanks again and kudos to bucholze for showing us the correct way to use the forum and increasing our understanding of "sarcasm".

Mine was always limited and i appreciate the enlightenment, thank you buchhholze.

PPD you should stand corrected and abashed, perhaps in the corner wearing a pirates hat.

(apologies for typos, the keyboard on my brand new lenovo laptop is not very good )

Edited September 15, 2012 by philw

[473geo]

in this context and without more information, this is nothing more than speculative. A lot like the posters on TVF

Looking in the mirror are we?

I had the dubious pleasure of being in the midst of a lot of the troubles due to working in the area, .I assure you there was indeed rampant violence being displayed by the Red Shirt faction against fellow Thais and foreigners too..The collection of entry fee's so as one could enter and pass through Red Shirt enclaves to get to work etc,

The authorities did a good job at retraining themselves, warnings were ignored, action taken .Causalities in battles, witness the situation in other countries when the same situations arise. Wall Street, the London riots, the Paris riots.,

Why should the mass suffer due to the thuggish minority?

Good point, the masses in Thailand have suffered at the hands of a minority for years.....let us hope the elections which followed this protest facilitate change

[chotthee]

The French has no reason to lie.

Also, they are shooting the film from the army side (friend), not from the Red-shirt side (foe).

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclusive-france-24-footage-shows-soldiers-firing-directly-protesters

[rixalex]

The French has no reason to lie.

Also, they are shooting the film from the army side (friend), not from the Red-shirt side (foe).

http://www.france24....ctly-protesters

Grenade goes off, seven soldiers killed, colonel with head injury.. after that, yeah, i think the stage of firing warning shots up into the air might have passed.

[phiphidon]

What it proves is that in addition to being unaware of the forum's functioning, you're also unaware of the concept of sarcasm and how a sarcastic comment may seem to conflict with a subsequent serious comment if only one is take the first one as non-sarcastic.

However, it only seems that way for people unfamiliar with sarcasm.

p.s. the "links" you provided are not links to my quotes. You provided a single link to the OP of the thread.

p.s.s. I did read your reply.

.

My you're pedantic. Having a conversation with you in real life must take hours.

To be fair if you're trying to portray sarcasm via the internet you need to be very skilful with words. In the abscence of that skill, perhaps you could adopt Karl Marxs' equivalent punctuation for depicting sarcasm as used in Das Kapital. At the end of a sentences or sentences you wish to portray as sarcasm type this [!]

If you're British, carry on as normal .

[473geo]

The French has no reason to lie.

Also, they are shooting the film from the army side (friend), not from the Red-shirt side (foe).

http://www.france24....ctly-protesters

Grenade goes off, seven soldiers killed, colonel with head injury.. after that, yeah, i think the stage of firing warning shots up into the air might have passed.

Yes another major military gaff, should have planned one strike and one strike only.......go in and clear the protestors,why prolong the inevitable.......poor strategy, incompetence, poor management.......caused many needless deaths

[phiphidon]

The French has no reason to lie.

Also, they are shooting the film from the army side (friend), not from the Red-shirt side (foe).

http://www.france24....ctly-protesters

Grenade goes off, seven soldiers killed, colonel with head injury.. after that, yeah, i think the stage of firing warning shots up into the air might have passed.

Seven soldiers killed? Actually still a tragic 5 but let's not get carried away. Talking of which, warning shots into the air had been abandoned around 4pm according to tweets and video and TV from eyewitnesses at the scenes

George

Posted April 10, 2010 at 7:58 PM

3:55PM Saturday afternoon April 11th in Bangkok: ThaiPBS Reporter at scene states that soldiers at firing guns into the air (from video though the guns are horizontal)………..

George

Posted April 10, 2010 at 8:13 PM

Report from viewer on Thai TV live coverage about 4PM Bangkok Saturday afternoon:

You can see on Thai tv that the soldiers are shooting at redshirts. I feel sick. Why do they have to shoot?

George

Posted April 10, 2010 at 8:18 PM

4:05PM Bangkok Saturday April 1oth……….

—————————————-

Report that troops pushed out of Makkawan by reds.

Reds massed and pushed troops out of Makkawan 4 minutes ago.

Reds protesting troops as troops retreat 2 minutes ago out of Makkawan.

Reds are protecting troops as they leave.

George

Posted April 10, 2010 at 8:24 PM

4:20 PM April 10 Bangkok:

According to TPBS reporter, it looks like at least some soldiers have real bullets, not rubber ones.

George

Posted April 10, 2010 at 8:34 PM

4:20 PM Bangkok Saturday April 11th:

Report foreign journalist reportedly hit by bullet at Makkawan Bridge site.

Another report that Redshirt leaders claiming 4 protesters have been shot and are in hospital.

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2010/04/10/crackdown/comment-page-1/#comments

[Nickymaster]

The French has no reason to lie.

Also, they are shooting the film from the army side (friend), not from the Red-shirt side (foe).

http://www.france24....ctly-protesters

Grenade goes off, seven soldiers killed, colonel with head injury.. after that, yeah, i think the stage of firing warning shots up into the air might have passed.

Yes another major military gaff, should have planned one strike and one strike only.......go in and clear the protestors,why prolong the inevitable.......poor strategy, incompetence, poor management.......caused many needless deaths

So in your opinion which department in this country is in charge of law and order and crowd control?

Edited September 15, 2012 by Nickymaster

[philw]

The French has no reason to lie.

Also, they are shooting the film from the army side (friend), not from the Red-shirt side (foe).

http://www.france24....ctly-protesters

Grenade goes off, seven soldiers killed, colonel with head injury.. after that, yeah, i think the stage of firing warning shots up into the air might have passed.

Yes another major military gaff, should have planned one strike and one strike only.......go in and clear the protestors,why prolong the inevitable.......poor strategy, incompetence, poor management.......caused many needless deaths

So in your opinion which department in this country is in charge of law and order and crowd control?

THANK YOU.

It is of course the serving Prime Minister, the current one to be pilloried for her handling of the floods and the previous one to be held accountable for the needless murder of Thai citizens.

[scotbeve]

interesting photo of the "men in black". I wonder why they carry riot shields....

They stole them along with an arsenal of weapons.

Those weapons were most likely given to them (MIB) by a power faction that can not be mentioned.... These MIB were rumored to be either Cambodians (remember Newin's thugs at the APEC mtg in PTY?) or Laotians. So as long as you all are making claims, I may as well.

[rixalex]

Yes another major military gaff, should have planned one strike and one strike only.......go in and clear the protestors,why prolong the inevitable.......poor strategy, incompetence, poor management.......caused many needless deaths

Had the military planned one strike and one strike only, we don't know how that would have ended. Maybe less people dead, maybe more. Either way i'm sure you would be on here just as you are now, blaming it all on everyone bar the reds, and telling us all the answers for how it should have been handled. Hindsight and a comfy chair miles away from danger are nice luxuries.

[Buchholz]

What it proves is that in addition to being unaware of the forum's functioning, you're also unaware of the concept of sarcasm and how a sarcastic comment may seem to conflict with a subsequent serious comment if only one is take the first one as non-sarcastic.

However, it only seems that way for people unfamiliar with sarcasm.

p.s. the "links" you provided are not links to my quotes. You provided a single link to the OP of the thread.

p.s.s. I did read your reply.

.

To be fair if you're trying to portray sarcasm via the internet you need to be very skilful with words. In the abscence of that skill, perhaps you could adopt Karl Marxs' equivalent punctuation for depicting sarcasm as used in Das Kapital. At the end of a sentences or sentences you wish to portray as sarcasm type this [!]

Amazing that no where in that 80-post thread with thousands of views did anyone fail to recognize the sarcasm for what it was.

Only 10 months later after it was written, did you alone fail to.

Perhaps that should tell you something.

.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Buchholz

[rixalex]

It is of course the serving Prime Minister, the current one to be pilloried for her handling of the floods and the previous one to be held accountable for the needless murder of Thai citizens.

When did you suddenly decide to start pillorying Yingluck for her handling of the floods?

[Nickymaster]

Grenade goes off, seven soldiers killed, colonel with head injury.. after that, yeah, i think the stage of firing warning shots up into the air might have passed.

Yes another major military gaff, should have planned one strike and one strike only.......go in and clear the protestors,why prolong the inevitable.......poor strategy, incompetence, poor management.......caused many needless deaths

So in your opinion which department in this country is in charge of law and order and crowd control?

THANK YOU.

It is of course the serving Prime Minister, the current one to be pilloried for her handling of the floods and the previous one to be held accountable for the needless murder of Thai citizens.

You must be the smart one, or maybe.. , the serving PM is a department in your opinion.

Clear now? Ok back to the department. So in your opinion which department in this country is in charge of law and order and crowd control?

HINT, it cannot be the PM because he/she only gives orders (as with YS) and doesn't manage that particular department.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Nickymaster