If England Are Not Inferior, Why Have We Failed?

[transam]

I think to much time spent with accountants instead of talking strategy eh. ...............

[salty]

Could it be that ye take yourselves too seriously?

[alfieconn]

People come up with all these weird and wonderful theories why we don’t do any good as a national team, all of which is a load of hogwash !!!!!

It’s simple, English people are not born with enough natural ability, Brazilians are born with it, some of the latin countries are born with it.

You can give all the coaching in the world to kids but if you don’t have enough natural ability your not going to get anywhere.

with respect alfie, that's the biggest load of horse elbows i've read in some time. what is 'it' and how are you born with it baed on where you're born? you saying george best didn't have natural ability? how about zinedine zidane? johan cryuff? john barnes? zlatan ibrahimovic? there are plenty of kids born in brazil who are crap at football.

it's about the coaching the talented kids are given. the systems they're taught, the ways of playing, the freedom to express themselves. you can't generalise about it being solely based on where a kid is born.

First of all Stevie i think you was pissed when you wrote this piece of garbage.......

Perhaps i should have said in my piece that we don't produce enough players with an abundance of natural ability !

So the players you have mentioned, did they become world class players by having the best coaching or because they were born with a large amount of natural ability ?

you can't generalise about it being solely based on where a kid is born.

Why not, why is is that some countries have had more world class players over the years than other countries ? because it is their make up or genes or what ever you want to call it !

The same in other sports India for cricket, New zealand for rugby.

[mrbojangles]

Why not, why is is that some countries have had more world class players over the years than other countries ? because it is their make up or genes or what ever you want to call it !

The same in other sports India for cricket, New zealand for rugby.

i think I'm right in saying that England are ranked higher than India in both Test and ODI's. India are ranked higher only in 20Twenty. That, to me, doesn't indicate they have something special in their genes that other nations don't have.

I think you would also get a disagreement from South Africa, Australia and even England that New Zealand are blessed with something special in their genes that non of those have got.

[smokie36]

Why not, why is is that some countries have had more world class players over the years than other countries ? because it is their make up or genes or what ever you want to call it !

The same in other sports India for cricket, New zealand for rugby.

i think I'm right in saying that England are ranked higher than India in both Test and ODI's. India are ranked higher only in 20Twenty. That, to me, doesn't indicate they have something special in their genes that other nations don't have.

I think you would also get a disagreement from South Africa, Australia and even England that New Zealand are blessed with something special in their genes that non of those have got.

I'm confused......

[mrbojangles]

Why not, why is is that some countries have had more world class players over the years than other countries ? because it is their make up or genes or what ever you want to call it !

The same in other sports India for cricket, New zealand for rugby.

i think I'm right in saying that England are ranked higher than India in both Test and ODI's. India are ranked higher only in 20Twenty. That, to me, doesn't indicate they have something special in their genes that other nations don't have.

I think you would also get a disagreement from South Africa, Australia and even England that New Zealand are blessed with something special in their genes that non of those have got.

I'm confused......

I understand smokes. The conversation has included cricket and rugby, sports that are alien to the Scots. In fact, I'm surprised you don't get confused when we talk about football

[alfieconn]

Why not, why is is that some countries have had more world class players over the years than other countries ? because it is their make up or genes or what ever you want to call it !

The same in other sports India for cricket, New zealand for rugby.

i think I'm right in saying that England are ranked higher than India in both Test and ODI's. India are ranked higher only in 20Twenty. That, to me, doesn't indicate they have something special in their genes that other nations don't have.

I think you would also get a disagreement from South Africa, Australia and even England that New Zealand are blessed with something special in their genes that non of those have got.

Fark me BJ, have India produced many good cricket players ? have New Zealand produced manygood rugby players ?

[smokie36]

Why not, why is is that some countries have had more world class players over the years than other countries ? because it is their make up or genes or what ever you want to call it !

The same in other sports India for cricket, New zealand for rugby.

i think I'm right in saying that England are ranked higher than India in both Test and ODI's. India are ranked higher only in 20Twenty. That, to me, doesn't indicate they have something special in their genes that other nations don't have.

I think you would also get a disagreement from South Africa, Australia and even England that New Zealand are blessed with something special in their genes that non of those have got.

I'm confused......

I understand smokes. The conversation has included cricket and rugby, sports that are alien to the Scots. In fact, I'm surprised you don't get confused when we talk about football

In fact mrboj I am a big rugby fan. Its the cricket thing here....its not really a sport now is it? Just a few blokes with big wooly jerseys being polite. Look....even I'm being polite talking about 'em.

Ashes aside, I abhor cricket....too many summer afternoons wasted when we could have been playing footy. Nuff said.

[alfieconn]

Why not, why is is that some countries have had more world class players over the years than other countries ? because it is their make up or genes or what ever you want to call it !

The same in other sports India for cricket, New zealand for rugby.

i think I'm right in saying that England are ranked higher than India in both Test and ODI's. India are ranked higher only in 20Twenty. That, to me, doesn't indicate they have something special in their genes that other nations don't have.

I think you would also get a disagreement from South Africa, Australia and even England that New Zealand are blessed with something special in their genes that non of those have got.

where have i said that New Zealand have something in their genes that these other countries hav'nt, i was just using India and NZ as examples !

Edited October 7, 2012 by alfieconn

[mrbojangles]

Why not, why is is that some countries have had more world class players over the years than other countries ? because it is their make up or genes or what ever you want to call it !

The same in other sports India for cricket, New zealand for rugby.

i think I'm right in saying that England are ranked higher than India in both Test and ODI's. India are ranked higher only in 20Twenty. That, to me, doesn't indicate they have something special in their genes that other nations don't have.

I think you would also get a disagreement from South Africa, Australia and even England that New Zealand are blessed with something special in their genes that non of those have got.

where have i said that New Zealand have something in their genes that these other countries hav'nt, i was just using India and NZ and examples !

Well I've misunderstood you alfie. It read to me that you were saying India have something in their genes for cricket and NZ for rugby.

[mrbojangles]

I'm confused......

I understand smokes. The conversation has included cricket and rugby, sports that are alien to the Scots. In fact, I'm surprised you don't get confused when we talk about football

In fact mrboj I am a big rugby fan. Its the cricket thing here....its not really a sport now is it?

I was being facetious smokes. I would imagine most scots love rugby

[smokie36]

Why not, why is is that some countries have had more world class players over the years than other countries ? because it is their make up or genes or what ever you want to call it !

The same in other sports India for cricket, New zealand for rugby.

i think I'm right in saying that England are ranked higher than India in both Test and ODI's. India are ranked higher only in 20Twenty. That, to me, doesn't indicate they have something special in their genes that other nations don't have.

I think you would also get a disagreement from South Africa, Australia and even England that New Zealand are blessed with something special in their genes that non of those have got.

where have i said that New Zealand have something in their genes that these other countries hav'nt, i was just using India and NZ and examples !

Well I've misunderstood you alfie. It read to me that you were saying India have something in their genes for cricket and NZ for rugby.

Sauntering along the East End the other year I spotted a game of cricket happening under one of the bypasses. Every one of the kids was of Indian origin.

The next generation of England cricketers! Bloody immigrants I hear the Aussies shout!

[MrRed]

Why not, why is is that some countries have had more world class players over the years than other countries ? because it is their make up or genes or what ever you want to call it !

The same in other sports India for cricket, New zealand for rugby.

i think I'm right in saying that England are ranked higher than India in both Test and ODI's. India are ranked higher only in 20Twenty. That, to me, doesn't indicate they have something special in their genes that other nations don't have.

I think you would also get a disagreement from South Africa, Australia and even England that New Zealand are blessed with something special in their genes that non of those have got.

I'm confused......

I understand smokes. The conversation has included cricket and rugby, sports that are alien to the Scots. In fact, I'm surprised you don't get confused when we talk about football

He does regularly

[smokie36]

I'm confused......

I understand smokes. The conversation has included cricket and rugby, sports that are alien to the Scots. In fact, I'm surprised you don't get confused when we talk about football

In fact mrboj I am a big rugby fan. Its the cricket thing here....its not really a sport now is it?

I was being facetious smokes. I would imagine most scots love rugby

Don't try and scare me with big words. Right that's it time for a cup of . I'll be back....

[mrbojangles]

I was being facetious smokes. I would imagine most scots love rugby

Don't try and scare me with big words. Right that's it time for a cup of . I'll be back....

I won't. Just about to set off on a 4 hour drive through the desert. Play nicely ya'll

[MrRed]

I was being facetious smokes. I would imagine most scots love rugby

Don't try and scare me with big words. Right that's it time for a cup of . I'll be back....

I won't. Just about to set off on a 4 hour drive through the desert. Play nicely ya'll

You should make the game tonight then drive safe!

[mrbojangles]

I was being facetious smokes. I would imagine most scots love rugby

Don't try and scare me with big words. Right that's it time for a cup of . I'll be back....

I won't. Just about to set off on a 4 hour drive through the desert. Play nicely ya'll

You should make the game tonight then drive safe!

Yep, I'm meeting up with a couple of mates. One is Man U and one is Newcastle. I shall sit in the middle

[MrRed]

enjoy i have sat on the fence also score draw!

[carmine]

Why not, why is is that some countries have had more world class players over the years than other countries ? because it is their make up or genes or what ever you want to call it !

The same in other sports India for cricket, New zealand for rugby.

i think I'm right in saying that England are ranked higher than India in both Test and ODI's. India are ranked higher only in 20Twenty. That, to me, doesn't indicate they have something special in their genes that other nations don't have.

I think you would also get a disagreement from South Africa, Australia and even England that New Zealand are blessed with something special in their genes that non of those have got.

I'm confused......

I'm pleased i'm not the only one!

[smokie36]

enjoy i have sat on the fence also score draw!

I haven't.

[MrRed]

Why not, why is is that some countries have had more world class players over the years than other countries ? because it is their make up or genes or what ever you want to call it !

The same in other sports India for cricket, New zealand for rugby.

i think I'm right in saying that England are ranked higher than India in both Test and ODI's. India are ranked higher only in 20Twenty. That, to me, doesn't indicate they have something special in their genes that other nations don't have.

I think you would also get a disagreement from South Africa, Australia and even England that New Zealand are blessed with something special in their genes that non of those have got.

I'm confused......

I'm pleased i'm not the only one!

It is Ok Carms ......Alfie just talking about individuals countries make up and genes that is what Thailand must be good at producing....kateoys eh?

[carmine]

All i know is fergusons got a lot to answer for........oh yes and smeone took a dump in Mark Lawrensons kit bag

Edited October 7, 2012 by carmine

[smokie36]

All i know is fergusons got a lot to answer for........oh yes and smeone took a dump in Mark Lawrensons kit bag

You wanted our great Scot as England manager carms?

[theblether]

At the risk of being controversial, in my humble opinion the reasons why England don't do well at tournaments are, ( this is based over the last 30 years, not just recently ).............

You play too much tough football during the season, and your teams turn up worn down.........it's not just the amount of games, ( up to 70 in some cases ), but the intensity and pressure. No other league plays under those conditions.......the Southern leagues such as Spain and Italy may be just as competitive but they are played at a lighter pace, less games, and better weather conditions.

Many of the tournaments are played at high summer in hot countries.......I remember it being reported that Paul Mariner lost 6 kilos in one match, I believe at Spain 92, the style of play required is alien to the English way, and it takes too much adjustment of playing style, it's an impossible task

You're not brutal enough with your player selection.........Robson, Beckham, Rooney should never have been at their respective world cups after carrying injuries or suspensions that knocked them out of contention.......my simple rule is if you're not fit in May, you're not fit to play. we'll never forget Robson being helped from the pitch with his shoulder dislocated, we all knew he wasn't fit before that tournament, and recently asking Rooney to come up to Championship level play after being banned from the first two games, and not having played for a month, was asking too much. Be more brutal from the get go.

For years the media have terrorised the players.......I think this year is the first year it wasn't so bad, more support and encouragement would go a long way, and less of the pathetic over the top character assassinations.

These days the top class player pool is too small, that's the price you pay for having the Worlds best league, you don't have enough players in position at the best clubs........however!!

That's not as big a problem as it seems, it's up to the manager to put the best team on the pitch, not the team with the best players. The Gerrard/Lampard scenario was a prime example. Shilton/Clements was another.......I reckon Shilton was the better keeper, but Clements was the better team player, so instead of rotating, Clements should have kept the jersey until Shilton learned how to play for the team. The majority of countries that go to tournaments don't have a team full of superstars, they have teams with solid, dependable players that never let them down, with a couple of star performers.

I reckon England need to look at some of the other players available and take the same approach, don't go for the name, go for the player that is best for the team. So what if he plays for Wigan or West Brom, if he locks down the defence whatever then he's the team player.......the Galactico system has been proven not to work.

Just sayin'

[carmine]

England also have a dinosaur of a coach whose tactical acumen begins and ends with a 4-4-2.

[mrbojangles]

And many of those foreign players who play in the EPL are also playing for their national side in the major tournaments.

[theblether]

And many of those foreign players who play in the EPL are also playing for their national side in the major tournaments.

Yes, true, and many more are not......which leads to another crucial point. There are not enough English players playing abroad, they are schooled, trained and play in England all their lives, that's a highly unusual circumstance. I can't think of any other major country that is so insular in that regard.

[smokie36]

And many of those foreign players who play in the EPL are also playing for their national side in the major tournaments.

Yes, true, and many more are not......which leads to another crucial point. There are not enough English players playing abroad, they are schooled, trained and play in England all their lives, that's a highly unusual circumstance. I can't think of any other major country that is so insular in that regard.

Suggest high wages and poor quality as the main reasons.

[theblether]

And many of those foreign players who play in the EPL are also playing for their national side in the major tournaments.

Yes, true, and many more are not......which leads to another crucial point. There are not enough English players playing abroad, they are schooled, trained and play in England all their lives, that's a highly unusual circumstance. I can't think of any other major country that is so insular in that regard.

Suggest high wages and poor quality as the main reasons.

I don't disagree with that. especially the high wage bit. There are plenty of English professionals that could do a job with European clubs, but thiose clubs can't afford them......and hence England loses a whole tier and breadth of football education.

[sumrit]

People come up with all these weird and wonderful theories why we don’t do any good as a national team, all of which is a load of hogwash !!!!!

It’s simple, English people are not born with enough natural ability, Brazilians are born with it, some of the latin countries are born with it.

You can give all the coaching in the world to kids but if you don’t have enough natural ability your not going to get anywhere.

I'm not sure if the Brazilians are actually born with more natural ability, but I don't think you're a million miles away Alfie.

My son is a full time sports coach and he tells me that, on the latest FA coaching courses, prospective coaches are being taught that kids will have gained 90-95% of the natural technical ability by the time they are 9-10 years old.

In other words from ten years old onwards it doesn't matter how much coaching they are given their natural ability can only ever be increased by a maximum of 10%!!

YES, a good coach can teach them how to use what ability they have to it's greatest effect and, yes, they can be taught how to control and use that ability in the best way, but no amount of coaching will give them more natural ability.

So while the Brazilian (etc) kids are outside on any bit of rough ground using anything from a tin can to a tennis ball to an actual football to improve and hone their skills and natural ability (almost) from the time they can walk, our kids are not even allowed out on the streets because, even if it;s not too dangerous, the 'do gooders' won't allow it. Instead they spend most of their time in front of a TV or PC. At schools they're not even allowed to play football at break times any more plus they're taught that winning isn't important as long as they attend (in other words it doesn't matter about playing well because if you do you might end up winning and that's not the intention). Thank god more schools are now starting to using external sports coaches instead of teachers with their silly ideas.

The new FA guidelines for children's football with mini soccer where the pitches and equipment is actually the right size for the age group and where all coaches must now be fully qualified does go some way to improve things but I don't think giving them just one to two hours coaching a week and a game on Sunday is going to improve UK kids natural ability to any great extent if they can't practice and improve those skills for the rest of the week.