Is Being Fat A Choice (If There Is No Underlying Medical Reason)

[tropo]

Brown adipose tissue?

We are in fact just large columns of water. Most of our diet is used to keep or body temp at the norm. Exercise etc don't take nearly as much extra calories as people think.

Making yourself cold is not an option.

If you consume them we all burn off at remarkably similar rates in the same conditions.

If you put food into these columns of water the calories are extracted and used up to a point, after that they are stored - as fat - if you don't want to srtore as fat, don't eat them. Burning off is not really an option.

People burn calories at vastly different rates. I see example everywhere I go. My wife is a fatastic example - eats what she wants and hasn't put on a kilo in 8 years. Tropo vs Roblok is well documented and they have very similar exercise routines.

What do you mean "making yourself cold is not an option"? How does my story about being comfortable in air-conditioning relate to making yourself cold to burn calories?

I can burn more calories in the gym in cooler temperatures because I can train harder and faster. I have evidence of this if you're interested. I keep detailed records of how many calories I burn per cardio session.

Then you say: "Exercise etc don't take nearly as much extra calories as people think". I just burned 1000 calories on my Concept rower and other misc exercises in my lounge while you typed that. Would you not consider 1000 calories significant? A few months ago I burned 1900 in 90 minutes at the gym. That's a full day's food intake for many - not significant?

You're a nutrient scientist. Perhaps you need to study exercise physiology. Burning calories is a fantastic option. Keeping the same food intake while increasing activity will work. Just go back to the equation of calories in vs calories out. There's nothing magical, it's just mathematics.

Edited October 21, 2012 by tropo

[cowslip]

Fair point , these guys are professional body builders.

I do get the point and understand about BMI etc learnt all that and more in basic med school years ago.

I doubt that ANY athlete who is at the top of his game is healthy. Bodybuilder or cyclist. If you are competing your demanding a lot of your body. Maybe going to far.

there is truth in this.

Keeping "Healthy" is one thing....super-fit or athletically fit are quite different from this. Body builders in particular are a fine example of how the wrong exercise and diet can get you into a real mess - especially if you are using steroids, which is why most body builders come to Thailand.

you only need a small amount of activity to get "healthy" and this in turn will improve on any weight problems.

However most people simply fail to realise how much they eat compared to others and how even though they "exercise" they do in fact have an incredibly inactive lifestyle.

[

Could you explain the mess bodybuilders are in please ?

I am not talking about steriod taking but natural ones, who don't compete.

I exercise around an hour a day, not that much actually i believe standard is half an hour exercise a day is recommended.

the first thing I'd say to any body builder is "Look ar yourself"

secondly unnatural muscle mass deforms the skeleton and posture.

THe exercises are not aerobic and have no benefit and deliberately tinkering with the diet to try to "improve" muscle growth is vey ill-advised.

THe muscles even put physical pressure on soft organs - in particular the genitals.

they interfere with posture and walking which leads to spinal problems later in life.

as age sets in you are then faced with the problem of muscle mass being replaced by fat and all the cardiac and arterial problems that have been set in place by your excessive diet and the cravings that results in.

BTW - you use the word "natural" as everything is "natural" on this planet it would indiv=cate you don't really understand what you are taking - whatever it is......

[cowslip]

Brown adipose tissue?

We are in fact just large columns of water. Most of our diet is used to keep or body temp at the norm. Exercise etc don't take nearly as much extra calories as people think.

Making yourself cold is not an option.

If you consume them we all burn off at remarkably similar rates in the same conditions.

If you put food into these columns of water the calories are extracted and used up to a point, after that they are stored - as fat - if you don't want to srtore as fat, don't eat them. Burning off is not really an option.

People burn calories at vastly different rates. I see example everywhere I go. My wife is a fatastic example - eats what she wants and hasn't put on a kilo in 8 years. Tropo vs Roblok is well documented and they have very similar exercise routines.

What do you mean "making yourself cold is not an option"? How does my story about being comfortable in air-conditioning relate to making yourself cold to burn calories?

I can burn more calories in the gym in cooler temperatures because I can train harder and faster. I have evidence of this if you're interested. I keep detailed records of how many calories I burn per cardio session.

Then you say: "Exercise etc don't take nearly as much extra calories as people think". I just burned 1000 calories on my Concept rower and other misc exercises in my lounge while you typed that. Would you not consider 1000 calories significant? A few months ago I burned 1900 in 90 minutes at the gym. That's a full day's food intake for many - not significant?

You're a nutrient scientist. Perhaps you need to study exercise physiology. Burning calories is a fantastic option. Keeping the same food intake while increasing activity will work. Just go back to the equation of calories in vs calories out. There's nothing magical, it's just mathematics.

It's a frequently held misconception that exercise will "burn off" calories - this IS misconception.

You might want to check how many calories an athlete burns whilst running a marathon.

Usually what happens with exercise is that muscles are built rather than fat stored - so your wieght may increase and the root cause of you being overweight is not addressed.

Edited October 21, 2012 by cowslip

[robblok]

Could you explain the mess bodybuilders are in please ?

I am not talking about steriod taking but natural ones, who don't compete.

I exercise around an hour a day, not that much actually i believe standard is half an hour exercise a day is recommended.

the first thing I'd say to any body builder is "Look ar yourself"

secondly unnatural muscle mass deforms the skeleton and posture.

THe exercises are not aerobic and have no benefit and deliberately tinkering with the diet to try to "improve" muscle growth is vey ill-advised.

THe muscles even put physical pressure on soft organs - in particular the genitals.

they interfere with posture and walking which leads to spinal problems later in life.

as age sets in you are then faced with the problem of muscle mass being replaced by fat and all the cardiac and arterial problems that have been set in place by your excessive diet and the cravings that results in.

BTW - you use the word "natural" as everything is "natural" on this planet it would indiv=cate you don't really understand what you are taking - whatever it is......

Spoken like an idiot, as on your nature threads. But ok ill bite.

Natural means no steriods, you obviously have no knowledge else you would have known that.

Weight lifting helps for bone density, never heard of it.. i thought so.

Muscle mass replaced by fat, an other misconception.. only if you don't adapt your caloric intake. For someone pretending to know a lot you show your bias.

Could you please show some research about those deformed bodybuilder skeletons.

Most bodybuilders also do cardio exercises, you are truly not well informed.

I actually had to laugh when i was reading your nonsense, it reminded me of your fight for nature threads.

[cowslip]

Tropo your aren't looking at the problem from a scientific perspective you are just assessing your own personal opinion and assuming it is gospel.

[cowslip]

Fair point , these guys are professional body builders.

I do get the point and understand about BMI etc learnt all that and more in basic med school years ago.

I doubt that ANY athlete who is at the top of his game is healthy. Bodybuilder or cyclist. If you are competing your demanding a lot of your body. Maybe going to far.

sorry but that is not a correct assumption - it's just something that you have held to be true for a long time without actually looking at it critically.

[tropo]

Fair point , these guys are professional body builders.

I do get the point and understand about BMI etc learnt all that and more in basic med school years ago.

Ok, so perhaps you could explain why anyone uses this ridiculous scale?

My BMI is 30.5 which is in the obese 1 category. My fat mass/height (kg/m2) is 2.85, therefore adjusted BMI is 17, which is in the underweight category.

BTW, a bodybuilder is any person who goes to the gym to build muscle. Probably less than 0.00001% are pro bodybuilders.

[tropo]

Tropo your aren't looking at the problem from a scientific perspective you are just assessing your own personal opinion and assuming it is gospel.

A lot better than old textbook, outdated pseudo science you're coming up with.

[tropo]

It's a frequently held misconception that exercise will "burn off" calories - this IS misconception.

You might want to check how many calories an athlete burns whilst running a marathon.

Usually what happens with exercise is that muscles are built rather than fat stored - so your wieght may increase and the root cause of you being overweight is not addressed.

I've never heard so much nonsense in my life. Cardio exercise does little to build muscles. I could do the sessions for years and not increase muscle mass. Perhaps as a rank beginner you would build a bit until you're up to speed, but no weight trained athlete will build an ounce of muscle from cardio sessions.

So what you're saying here is that when I do a cardio session that burns 1000 calories (for example), I'm not burning calories?

.. or are you saying that I'm not burning 1000 calories?

I just burnt 780 calories on the Concept Rower. These figures have been accurately adjusted for bodyweight. They get these figures from laboratory trials to determine true calorie expenditure. The machines I use are not play machines.

Seriously, you need to do an exercise physiology course to add to your educational profile.

[robblok]

http://www.medicalne...icles/30641.php

http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/heart-failure/news/20030331/high-fat-diet-ups-dangerous-hidden-fat

Here something about visceral fat and exercise, just read it cowslip maybe you learn something.

Edited October 21, 2012 by robblok

[tropo]

the first thing I'd say to any body builder is "Look ar yourself"

secondly unnatural muscle mass deforms the skeleton and posture.

THe exercises are not aerobic and have no benefit and deliberately tinkering with the diet to try to "improve" muscle growth is vey ill-advised.

THe muscles even put physical pressure on soft organs - in particular the genitals.

they interfere with posture and walking which leads to spinal problems later in life.

as age sets in you are then faced with the problem of muscle mass being replaced by fat and all the cardiac and arterial problems that have been set in place by your excessive diet and the cravings that results in.

BTW - you use the word "natural" as everything is "natural" on this planet it would indiv=cate you don't really understand what you are taking - whatever it is......

There's been some bad ones, but this is your most ridiculous offering to date. It seriously looks like you're only interested in hijacking this thread. Roblok as been bodybuilding for maybe 20 years. I've been at it for 36 years. In my 50's my skeleton is good. Posture good. General health excellent.

Are you familiar with bone mineral density T-Scores? Normal bone mass is between -1.0 and +1.0. Mine is at 2.9 (tested last week). Not bad for a broken down skeleton is it?

"muscle mass being replaced by fat". This is absurd. It should be pretty obvious that you only increase fat levels when you eat more and become less active. Of course muscle mass atrophies if it is not used. Some people lose weight when they stop training, as I do. Some people gain weight. It's all perfectly controllable.

BTW, how do you look? What is your bodyfat percentage? What is your BMD?

[Tolley]

the first thing I'd say to any body builder is "Look ar yourself"

secondly unnatural muscle mass deforms the skeleton and posture.

THe exercises are not aerobic and have no benefit and deliberately tinkering with the diet to try to "improve" muscle growth is vey ill-advised.

THe muscles even put physical pressure on soft organs - in particular the genitals.

they interfere with posture and walking which leads to spinal problems later in life.

as age sets in you are then faced with the problem of muscle mass being replaced by fat and all the cardiac and arterial problems that have been set in place by your excessive diet and the cravings that results in.

BTW - you use the word "natural" as everything is "natural" on this planet it would indiv=cate you don't really understand what you are taking - whatever it is......

There's been some bad ones, but this is your most ridiculous offering to date. It seriously looks like you're only interested in hijacking this thread. Roblok as been bodybuilding for maybe 20 years. I've been at it for 36 years. In my 50's my skeleton is good. Posture good. General health excellent.

Are you familiar with bone mineral density T-Scores? Normal bone mass is between -1.0 and +1.0. Mine is at 2.9 (tested last week). Not bad for a broken down skeleton is it?

"muscle mass being replaced by fat". This is absurd. It should be pretty obvious that you only increase fat levels when you eat more and become less active. Of course muscle mass atrophies if it is not used. Some people lose weight when they stop training, as I do. Some people gain weight. It's all perfectly controllable.

BTW, how do you look? What is your bodyfat percentage? What is your BMD?

Cowslip's credibility was already very much in doubt but he really did himself in with this latest offering.

[tropo]

Cowslip's credibility was already very much in doubt but he really did himself in with this latest offering.

Cowslip will undoubtedly be back for more later, but to get back to more useful information. I touched on it in my last reply - BMD test (using DEXA scan) showed what resistance training does for the skeleton.

This was the 2nd scan I've done, the last one early 2010. Both time my bone mineral density (BMD) was about 3 times above normal even for a 20 - 30 year old. According to the radiologist who did the test last week, she often sees these kind of T-Scores in people who weight train.

Another good reason to hit the iron.

[robblok]

Cowslip's credibility was already very much in doubt but he really did himself in with this latest offering.

Cowslip will undoubtedly be back for more later, but to get back to more useful information. I touched on it in my last reply - BMD test (using DEXA scan) showed what resistance training does for the skeleton.

This was the 2nd scan I've done, the last one early 2010. Both time my bone mineral density (BMD) was about 3 times above normal even for a 20 - 30 year old. According to the radiologist who did the test last week, she often sees these kind of T-Scores in people who weight train.

Another good reason to hit the iron.

It beats being scared to fall and worry about broken bones. I remember my grandmother worrying about that all the time. If you can keep your bones strong you got lot going for you.

Also his remark about overweight being a problem and with exercise you would get more overweight because of muscle mass is totally of mark.

Overweight is a symptom, the problem is fat and not even the normal fat but the visceral fat. That is so damaging for your health. Its not the body weight itself. I posted a link earlier about how exercise can help reduce those risks.

Anyway for the record anyone should do what they like i wont tell anyone to eat less or to exercise its a free choice.

[tropo]

Anyway for the record anyone should do what they like i wont tell anyone to eat less or to exercise its a free choice.

Yes, and when you're in good shape you'll have more detractors having a dig than if you're out of shape. Just in this thread we've been told that we're moody and we're destroying our internal organs, skeletons and posture. Have I missed some?

It's amazing how many reasons people can come up with not to exercise. Everyone is looking for an easy way. I'm sure you'll agree that the exercise is actually the easiest part Controlling food intake 24/7 is the hard work.

[robblok]

Anyway for the record anyone should do what they like i wont tell anyone to eat less or to exercise its a free choice.

Yes, and when you're in good shape you'll have more detractors having a dig than if you're out of shape. Just in this thread we've been told that we're moody and we're destroying our internal organs, skeletons and posture. Have I missed some?

It's amazing how many reasons people can come up with not to exercise. Everyone is looking for an easy way. I'm sure you'll agree that the exercise is actually the easiest part Controlling food intake 24/7 is the hard work.

I think i agree, the exercise is not the hard work, i gladly exercise an extra half hour if that means i can eat and drink what i want when i want.

Like i have been saying all the time fat / or in shape is a lifestyle choice. But for some its harder then for others. Nobody should force any lifestyle upon an other.

[Tolley]

Cowslip's credibility was already very much in doubt but he really did himself in with this latest offering.

Cowslip will undoubtedly be back for more later, but to get back to more useful information. I touched on it in my last reply - BMD test (using DEXA scan) showed what resistance training does for the skeleton.

This was the 2nd scan I've done, the last one early 2010. Both time my bone mineral density (BMD) was about 3 times above normal even for a 20 - 30 year old. According to the radiologist who did the test last week, she often sees these kind of T-Scores in people who weight train.

Another good reason to hit the iron.

And that is one of the major benefits of resistance training as you age keeping bones strong.

[Tolley]

I wonder how long after you stop resistance training the benefits of bone density remain.

On a similar note I wonder how long you can keep doing heavy training regimes going?

What happens when/if you get into your sixties/seventies can you maintain high level aerobic and resistance training activities?

[tropo]

I wonder how long after you stop resistance training the benefits of bone density remain.

On a similar note I wonder how long you can keep doing heavy training regimes going?

What happens when/if you get into your sixties/seventies can you maintain high level aerobic and resistance training activities?

This year I have made a conscious effort to concentrate more on form and function by lightening the loads. The joints and tendons can be very unforgiving and require more respect as we age.

Edited October 21, 2012 by tropo

[stiggy]

Never said at any point I agree with BMI just that I understand it's principle.

As for the rest Amateur body builders are plentiful.Every gym has the guy who spend hours looking at themselves in the mirror.

Edited October 21, 2012 by stiggy

[cowslip]

THere are some VERY dubious ideas about bone density in the medical basis for a lot of what the bodybuilders are saying is NIL.

one poster seems to be very confused about osteoporosis, which is predominantly a disease affecting women, but in the elderly (over 75 it can affect men at about half the rate it affects women.

of course this lack of real knowledge and the love of film-flam is exactly what the body-builder gyms want to promulgate.

sadly you have it would seem been blinded by mumbo-jumbo and financially taken hook line and sinker.

[tropo]

Never said at any point I agree with BMI just that I understand it's principle.

As for the rest Amateur body builders are plentiful.Every gym has the guy who spend hours looking at themselves in the mirror.

Yeah, that's what you do when you're a bodybuilder. It is nice to see something good in the mirror, or at least something on it's way to good. I can understand why the average Joe doesn't want to see their reflection in the mirror.

What about you? Do you like your reflection?

[tropo]

THere are some VERY dubious ideas about bone density in the medical basis for a lot of what the bodybuilders are saying is NIL.

one poster seems to be very confused about osteoporosis, which is predominantly a disease affecting women, but in the elderly (over 75 it can affect men at about half the rate it affects women.

of course this lack of real knowledge and the love of film-flam is exactly what the body-builder gyms want to promulgate.

sadly you have it would seem been blinded by mumbo-jumbo and financially taken hook line and sinker.

It's hard to understand your "mumbo-jumbo".

Is a T-score of 2.9 not a good thing?

Do you know what a T-Score is? Do you know what a DEXA scan is?

Edited October 21, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

Never said at any point I agree with BMI just that I understand it's principle.

As for the rest Amateur body builders are plentiful.Every gym has the guy who spend hours looking at themselves in the mirror.

There you go again and then you wonder why you get attacked. If looking in a mirror makes s

I wonder how long after you stop resistance training the benefits of bone density remain.

On a similar note I wonder how long you can keep doing heavy training regimes going?

What happens when/if you get into your sixties/seventies can you maintain high level aerobic and resistance training activities?

Good questions, im curious about that too. Im a long way from those ages but im curious. There is an other forum i sometimes visit with some real old guys who workout hard. So i wonder what is possible.

[robblok]

THere are some VERY dubious ideas about bone density in the medical basis for a lot of what the bodybuilders are saying is NIL.

one poster seems to be very confused about osteoporosis, which is predominantly a disease affecting women, but in the elderly (over 75 it can affect men at about half the rate it affects women.

of course this lack of real knowledge and the love of film-flam is exactly what the body-builder gyms want to promulgate.

sadly you have it would seem been blinded by mumbo-jumbo and financially taken hook line and sinker.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/strength-training/HQ01710 mayo clinic not exactly bodybuilder central

http://www.livestrong.com/article/330994-weight-training-for-bone-density/ live strong also not a bodybuilder source

I could go on but you lost all credibility.

[robblok]

Never said at any point I agree with BMI just that I understand it's principle.

As for the rest Amateur body builders are plentiful.Every gym has the guy who spend hours looking at themselves in the mirror.

I doubt they would look good if they spend hours just looking instead of working out.

Part of bodybuilding is looking at yourself in the mirror to see if you make progress. But a lot of hard work is done to get progress. People are afraid of hard work and make fun of those who do.

Though people who are confident about themselves don't feel the need to look down on people who are fat or out of shape. I greatly admire everyone who tries to get back into shape. I don't admire those who joke about others who are either in shape or not in shape.

Many of those big guys in the gyms (at least where i used to train) are quite willing to help. This was in the time that internet forums were not a big thing.

[robblok]

Actually i hate referring to myself as a bodybuilder, i feel im no where close to that. It also gives the misconception that i am already in perfect shape. I am not im work in progress, its going well but im not where i want to be.

I feel the term bodybuilder often is used negatively. Just my feeling

I workout with weights, i do cardio to get in shape. I train to loose fat and get bigger muscles. If that makes me a bodybuilder so be it. But i'm far from one of those pro's

I feel that when people talk about bodybuilders they talk about the guys that compete.

My whole avatar is an inside joke and word joke. Only people who have worked out understand that.

Edited October 21, 2012 by robblok

[laislica]

Many thanks for the Horizon episodes.

My Ghrelen response must be the one for the obese person, constant nagging for food.

I can avoid food for hours but once I start - exactly like it was in the program.

Then the two articles on visceral fat added greatly to my understanding of me.

I am not currently obese but have the life time tendency to be so, I only have to take my eye off the ball for a short time

My stats: 70 yrs, 70" tall, waist 34", neck 14.5", 155 pounds, BMI 22.46, I used to have high BP and tool attenolol and Captopril to control it from my mid 40's until I lost weight (from 95Kg to 75Kg) in 1996.

However, the weight steadily came back to 95Kg and I was put on meds again.

In 2009 I started to lose weight again and not my BP is at acceptable levels so no meds.

This time I have less muscle than ever before though I have less overall fat. This means that my metabolic rate is lower and therefore it id harder to lose fat.

However, I never had much in the way of muscle (very similar to my Dad) and if I train to build some up, it falls away rapidly as soon as I exercise less.

There are places on my body where I can pinch a little more that an inch and this tells me that I have too much fat and my aim is to reduce it.

I used to be a very heavy smoker on more than 60 a day when I gave up at age 33 and I still have the smokers wheeze and my lung function is not as good as it should be.

My real problem is motivation.

Do you have any suggestions that may inspire me - for life?

[robblok]

@laislica

The problem is to inspire / push others. I can only say this do it for your health. You can avoid problems later on its not a cosmetic thing only. You really can be more healthy if you have less visceral fat.

I know what you mean with life time motivation, you need to keep exercising moderately and eating well. However once you reach a state you like you can have your cheat days and you don't have to deprive yourself of everything. But in moderation.

Its never going to be easy, we all have the same problem you have to give up some things. But if you do exercise you will stay vital to a much higher age.

[cowslip]

THere are some VERY dubious ideas about bone density in the medical basis for a lot of what the bodybuilders are saying is NIL.

one poster seems to be very confused about osteoporosis, which is predominantly a disease affecting women, but in the elderly (over 75 it can affect men at about half the rate it affects women.

of course this lack of real knowledge and the love of film-flam is exactly what the body-builder gyms want to promulgate.

sadly you have it would seem been blinded by mumbo-jumbo and financially taken hook line and sinker.

It's hard to understand your "mumbo-jumbo".

Is a T-score of 2.9 not a good thing?

Do you know what a T-Score is? Do you know what a DEXA scan is?

I'm afraid I do ....but you don't seem aware of the limitations or its misuses?

I should open a clinic; i'd make a fortune out of the likes of you!

Edited October 21, 2012 by cowslip