Lite Beer Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 2010 VIOLENCE Democrats: Thaksin was behind 'men in black' Thanaphong Khongsai The Nation on Sunday BANGKOK: -- Hit men 'recruited to kill people, including red shirts, to smear Abhisit' The Democrats yesterday accused ex-prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra of being behind the so-called "men in black" who were allegedly hired to kill innocents including red-shirt protesters in order to smear the previous Abhisit government. Democrat Party deputy leader Apirak Kosayodhin was speaking during the party's discussion at Lumpini Park on "Seeking the truth: who is behind the merciless men in black in Thailand''. He said that there had been attempts to accuse the Abhisit government of ordering soldiers to kill the people, and that today the party would unveil who were the so-called men in black in order that the country can have the reconciliation. Democrat Party deputy leader Korn Chatikavanij posed four questions over the men-in-black group: 1) Who benefits from the 2010 riots, which red-shirt leaders have become ministers and Thaksin's younger sister has become PM? 2) Why would then-PM Abhisit Vejjajiva order the killing of people after he withstood so much public pressure and had been criticised for allowing illegal protests to continue day in and day out? 3) Maj-General Kattiya Sawaddipol was shot by a sniper. If the Abhisit government had been able to kill Khattiya, it would have also killed Jatuporn Promphan, Nattawut Saikua and other red-shirt leaders; why would the Abhisit government want to kill innocent people? 4) Who gained and who lost from the incidents in which nurses and foreign reporters were shot dead? "The truth is not what the majority indicates. People who want power and political change are the ones who did it. Abhisit and the Democrats were in power. Why would we want to create situations that would help others take our power away?'' he said. Democrat party-list Kasit Piromya said the Yingluck government was part of the armed militia and belonged to the red shirts and it did not want the Truth for Reconciliation Commission of Thailand (TRCT) to translate their final report into English. Democrat Rayong MP Sathit Pitudeja said the men in black were hired to commit evil work by firing upon sites such as the Temple of the Emerald Buddha, oil depots and the Defence Ministry, and killing soldiers, police and innocent people at Silom Skytrain station. "They were hired to kill the red shirts, their very [own] group because they were hired to destroy the Abhisit government,'' he said. "Everyone agrees that the men in black exist, but the Pheu Thai government refuses to find out their whereabouts, so the people must help trace the men-in-black to prosecution,'' he said. Pheu Thai deputy spokesman Jirayu Huangsab attacked the Democrats, saying such a rally by the Democrats was not useful to society but only caused more pain to people who had lost loved ones in the riots. "The rally is the last struggle of the man with a black face and the man who is good at talking before they are sent to their execution,'' he said. -- The Nation 2012-10-14 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ttelise Posted October 13, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted October 13, 2012 Now their just slinging <deleted>. No better than other side. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post RogueExpat Posted October 13, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted October 13, 2012 Easily the closest version of the truth so far. We all know the MIB were there to create as much chaos as possible and that Seh Dairng was a sacrificial Knight. Who would benefit from this? Definately not Abhisit et al. 28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrysteve Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) The Movie was a lot better than this crap! Edited October 13, 2012 by jerrysteve 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Well, Chalerm said he knew who they were, so ten out of ten for stating the obvious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Buchholz Posted October 14, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted October 14, 2012 Interesting revelation during the discussion yesterday was that that the families of the soldiers killed in May Mayhem 2010 received only 400,000 baht while the families of the Red Shirts killed received over 7,000,000 baht. I'm surprised the Red Shirts are protesting against this clear "Double Standard". . 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thai at Heart Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Couldn't they have said this all in parliament? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Buchholz Posted October 14, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted October 14, 2012 Couldn't they have said this all in parliament? Only if the House Speaker allocates them time to do so. . 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post rubl Posted October 14, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted October 14, 2012 Pheu Thai deputy spokesman Jirayu Huangsab attacked the Democrats, saying such a rally by the Democrats was not useful to society but only caused more pain to people who had lost loved ones in the riots. What about all those UDD / red-shirt rallies we had in Bangkok since about September 2010? Double standards here? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thai at Heart Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Couldn't they have said this all in parliament? Only if the House Speaker allocates them time to do so. . Well there is something else to change in the system. Any MP should be free to raise whatever they like in parliament. PMs questions, always entertaining and a vital part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzMick Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 The "who benefits?" question is a basic investigative tool, and you don't have to be Columbo (or even Schopenhauer) to use it. One of the reasons that some will say that it should never be asked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt1591 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 "Let me pull a rabbit outta my hat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilDrSomkid Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Korn does make valid points. I sure hope they have solid evidence for these accusations. Has the TRCT report been translated to English yet? I would like to read it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayboy Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Korn does make valid points. I sure hope they have solid evidence for these accusations. Has the TRCT report been translated to English yet? I would like to read it. I think it's very welcome there should be a full and open discussion about the MIB, not just politicians sounding off in Lumpini Park but a comprehensive, independent and forensic investigation.I'm completely open minded about the outcome.Let the cards fall where they may. Personally though an admirer of Korn, I don't buy his "who benefits" argument in this case.It's as if for example in the recent Egyptian upheaval the supporters of Mubarak argued that the opposition was behind the brutal police suppression.The "who benefits" question is always worth asking but it's very far from being the only question to be asked. Having said that I don't rule anything out.I find the Democrats line unconvincing and I find the Amsterdam line equally implausible.Can one realistically expect the truth to emerge? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilDrSomkid Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Can one realistically expect the truth to emerge? One can hope, but I am pessimistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricardo Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 These claims state what I suspect many people believe, but I'd like to see what actual proof the Dems can produce, just as I'd love to see the various investigations and commissions interview former-PM Thaksin & his local-representatives, or the black-shirt leader who DPM-Chalerm knows but refuses to name ! Don't the current government want to establish the full truth ? Why ever not ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellodolly Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Pheu Thai deputy spokesman Jirayu Huangsab attacked the Democrats, saying such a rally by the Democrats was not useful to society but only caused more pain to people who had lost loved ones in the riots. What about all those UDD / red-shirt rallies we had in Bangkok since about September 2010? Double standards here? Yes but that is OK being as Thaksin approves of double standards. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellodolly Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 These claims state what I suspect many people believe, but I'd like to see what actual proof the Dems can produce, just as I'd love to see the various investigations and commissions interview former-PM Thaksin & his local-representatives, or the black-shirt leader who DPM-Chalerm knows but refuses to name ! Don't the current government want to establish the full truth ? Why ever not ? Not in there life time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 These claims state what I suspect many people believe, but I'd like to see what actual proof the Dems can produce, just as I'd love to see the various investigations and commissions interview former-PM Thaksin & his local-representatives, or the black-shirt leader who DPM-Chalerm knows but refuses to name ! Don't the current government want to establish the full truth ? Why ever not ? The current government is really committed. It seems that Thai Rath has reported that the Thai Minister of Foreign Affairs, Surapong Tovichakchaikul, has said the following on the jurisdiction of the ICC (after the Sept, 15th rally this year): “It is time for Thailand to accept the ad hoc jurisdiction of the ICC in order to allow the truth to come out.” Further more UDD legal representative Robert A. has recently said in a speech “Our application to the ICC is being treated very seriously.” Unfortunately the ICC doesn't comment on requests for investigation as long as no decision is made if the ICC has jurisdiction. Of course the original 'request to investigate possible ...' was only on the 31st of January last year, these things take time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadman Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 She Dueng was probably taken out by the Army as he was a one of theirs acting against them. It was what he was saying in interviews prior to his dealing to that pointed the finger at where the link was. The likes of "it will be over when Thaksin says so" shore put the ownership of all right to the crim. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h90 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Couldn't they have said this all in parliament? Only if the House Speaker allocates them time to do so. . when they were in power, they could have said it and arrest all the men behind. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKrayTriplet Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Couldn't they have said this all in parliament? Only if the House Speaker allocates them time to do so. . when they were in power, they could have said it and arrest all the men behind. I presume you mean Abhisit and the democrats, yes? They had a year and a half of fresh evidence and several committees on the case and exactly what happened? Nothing, Zilch, Nada. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post rubl Posted October 14, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted October 14, 2012 Couldn't they have said this all in parliament? Only if the House Speaker allocates them time to do so. . when they were in power, they could have said it and arrest all the men behind. I presume you mean Abhisit and the democrats, yes? They had a year and a half of fresh evidence and several committees on the case and exactly what happened? Nothing, Zilch, Nada. The UDD leaders have been very busy since May 2010 to deny any wrong doing and with the current government (including a few of those UDD people) progress is inconclusive to say the least. Now if only the TRCT had been given more powers to investigate, or as my dear, sadly departed friend phiphidon wrote end of April this year "If Abhisit had truly wanted the truth he would have given the committee that he set up sub poena powers and ensured that those witnesses both military and civilian be compelled to give evidence. He didn't and managed to keep it that way until he was finally got rid of." 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post jayboy Posted October 14, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted October 14, 2012 I am not sure why Abhisit needed a committee to take action when he was PM.If the evidence was so oveerwhelming on the MIB it should have been possible to detain all or some of them and through interrogation establish the sponsoring individuals, objectives and funding source.Everybody else including red leaders and many rank and file were interrogated and/or detained, so why the exception.So h90 and others are right -why was nothing done when Abhisit and Suthep held power? Forgive me I'm all for a full investigation but the spazzy rhetoric at Lumpini now fails to cut the mustard. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomTao Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 I arrived in Thailand in April 2010, and I remember watching the protest on the tv at my wife's son's house, everyone who was sitting around watching, that is the family and thier friends, they were all saying the the protest was organised and paid for by Thaksin, whether he did finance the whole thing and whether he orchestrated the events that unfolded is all a matter of conjecture until such time as the actual untainted truth comes out, problem is that is not likely until those directly involved with the organisation and administration are no longer among the living or they suddenly decide truth is more valuable than money or position. There are questions that need to be answered by both sides of the political devide, and I suspect that both sides have reason to conceal portions of the truth for their own reasons. What if the MiB were hired to cause the death of innocents and to target both sides in the protest with the aim of smearing the government of the day? We won't know until the truth comes out, but so long as people wear either red or yellow tinted glasses the truth may not be recognised as the truth when it does come out of the shadows and into the light of day. Sent from my GT-I9003 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbamboo Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Easily the closest version of the truth so far. We all know the MIB were there to create as much chaos as possible and that Seh Dairng was a sacrificial Knight. Who would benefit from this? Definately not Abhisit et al. I thought this was already accepted by those not in denial to be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siampolee Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 (edited) interesting link below which shows that Thaksin as a sponsor of the Red Shirt movement is not exactly the paragon of virtue that his supporters like to think he is..Indeed there is more black than white when one reads through the passages and also links to other Red Shirt propaganda, misinformation sites too. http://landdestroyer...-hide-army.html Edited October 14, 2012 by siampolee 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Pi Sek Posted October 14, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted October 14, 2012 (edited) I must admit that the scenario proposed by the Dems here is the same one that I suspected at the time. All the talk from the Songkran 2009 Red stage (as in the one at Pattaya the year before the Rajprasong protest) suggested the leaders were itching to have some Red Shirts killed so they could escalate their protest. Then, after the 2009 protest, the leaders were going on about the 20 Red Shirt fatalities that year (the ones who didn't have names, faces, etc)... they wanted their followers to be angry and vengeful. And then they got the dead Red Shirts they wanted in 2010. In my own mind, I strongly suspect that the army took out Seh Daeng and fired into Wat Pathumwanaram and Thaksin was clearly paying both the Red Shirts to create a popular movement and the “Ronin Warriors” as a separate agency to create chaos by summary killings of those on both sides to instigate civil war, with a view to clearing a path for him to return as the country’s saviour. Their arguments are all plausible, but so are many others. Maybe we'll find out one day, but I won't hold my breath. Edited October 14, 2012 by Pi Sek 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayboy Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 interesting link below which shows that Thaksin as a sponsor of the Red Shirt movement is not exactly the paragon of virtue that his supporters like to think he is..Indeed there is more black than white when one reads through the passages and also links to other Red Shirt propaganda, misinformation sites too. http://landdestroyer...-hide-army.html Warning to the sane unless you are looking for some masochistic amusement .I didn't even open the landdestroyer link this time.For about a year or so I did monitor his blog from time to time.After the endless attempted justifications of dictatorial regimes (he is a great fan of Syria's murderous regime) I eventually lost patience.However the big problem is that he is quite mad, not Thai Visa madness which is rarely more than eccentricity, but real barking mad. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smedly Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 I don't doubt that the army did at some point shoot live rounds at protesters but I would also suspect that it was in self defence while under fire - that is what they are trained to do, there is no doubt in my mind that the protesters are responsible for most of the shootings, what bothers me the most is the fact that no foreign journalists have come forward and published what they saw - oh I forgot they shot any of them that actually saw what happened. Perhaps a large reward and amnesty to any MIB that want to come forward and give evidence would yield the truth and clear this up once and for all but of course that would not be in the interests of the sitting government 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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