Retirement Visa 800,000 Baht Bank Problem

[daveb1]

Hi Last week I paid my partners True phone bill out of my Thai bank account as an online payment unfortunately instead of paying 650.56 baht I made a mistake and must have not put a decimal point in and paid 65,056.00baht!

For 4 days this meant that my balance for my retirement visa dropped around 11,000 baht below the 800,000 baht required. As soon as I spotted the problem on my bank statement 4 days later I paid 65.056 back into the account instantly. I am now waiting for the phone company to refund the overpay which they say will take 2 to 3 weeks.

I have all the paperwork to prove this happened and it was a mistake. (Phone bill, copy of payment. Bank Statement, phone account statement etc.)Anyone know how understanding immigration in Jomteim will be about this when I apply for my new retirement visa due in about 3 weeks’ time. Any advice on anything else I can do or anyone had a similar experience? As I am starting to get worried. Thanks

[Mario2008]

Can't say how understadning they will be, strictly speaking you do not meet the requirements.

Do you have any income? In that case you can use the combined option and do not need to season the money, as long as your yearly income plus the money in the bank in Thailand is at least 800,000.

[Jingthing]

Sorry to hear about your problem clearly caused by an innocent mistake (which is an example of how silly those rules can be but that's another matter).

Jomtien historically went through a period for years when they were NOT enforcing the money seasoning requirements for retirement extensions as a matter of policy. In fact they were openly telling people not to be concerned about seasoning.

However, that changed to very strict enforcement for a long time now. They will definitely notice that your application doesn't meet the rule.

Personally, I think your application will be rejected as there is no ambiguity that it doesn't meet the rule, good excuse or not. Of course I wish you good luck with pleading your case.

Of course the alternative is to start over with a new single O visa and then you'll have plenty of time to season your money. In that case, the requirement will be two months seasoning as it will be a new first time.

Question I have about this that perhaps an alpha visa guru would know. I do know at Jomtien and many offices retirement extension qualified people can do a change of visa status from a 30 day stamp or tourist visa to a single 90 day O visa as part of the two step process (second step, the extension). However, not sure in the case of the OP. Would they allow a change of visa status in his case, or would he have to exit and reenter Thailand (by air for the 30 days) to get that started?

Edited November 1, 2012 by Jingthing

[OZEMADE]

Go down to the Immigration at Jomtien and see them with all of the paperwork you say you have and see the guy on the door, he will tell you if you can still apply for your Retirement. If he is not there, there is usually someone there that can tell you exactly what to do and if it will be accepted.

But dont leave it, go and do it now. Then you will know.

[Jingthing]

Also, please let us know if they do allow this glitch in your application. I really do think the odds are very, very poor but it would be quite interesting to know if they have any leeway at all to make that kind of exception.

[tourguidethai]

Actually if you are willing to spend some money, you do not even need to have 800k in your bank.

[Jingthing]

Actually if you are willing to spend some money, you do not even need to have 800k in your bank.

Sounds like you are talking about one of those dodgy visa fixer shops.

I am happy to go on record to suggest people NOT do business with such operations.

There are legal remedies for the OP if they don't accept his application, which really aren't that hard (starting over with a new O visa).

Edited November 1, 2012 by Jingthing

[Paul888]

I think you have more chance of finding an understanding immigration officer than you do of getting a refund out of True in "2 to 3 weeks". If you had said 2 to 3 years however........

Anyway, good luck with this. Sounds like a genuine mistake. I hope they see that.

[tourguidethai]

It's a mere suggestion. Anyway not all the retirees that applied for the retirement visa have 800k, a medical certicate, an income proof from his/her country etc. I used their services and sometimes it saves more than just money, it saves us a lot of miscommunication and time.

[Lite Beer]

A Medical Certificate is not needed.

[Jingthing]

It's a mere suggestion. Anyway not all the retirees that applied for the retirement visa have 800k, a medical certicate, an income proof from his/her country etc. I used their services and sometimes it saves more than just money, it saves us a lot of miscommunication and time.

The retirement visa "long stay" visa is an O-A visa only obtained in your home country. It requires a medical and police form and does not require funds to be in Thailand if using a bank account method. It is only an OPTION. An O-A is never required.

Retirement extensions obtained in Thailand indeed do not require medical or police forms, but if using a funds qualification method (800K or combo) the funds must be in a Thai bank account (and seasoned if using the 800K method).

Suggesting that following the established legal means, whether O-A, or retirement extensions is somehow equivalent to scamming the system using a dodgy visa fixer shop, paying a fee instead of actually qualifying for a legal method, doesn't really wash.

Many legitimately use visa services to hold their hands because they think using the system legally is too complicated (it's not really). I am talking here about people paying fees to avoid actually meeting the RULES.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Jingthing

[crazykopite]

sorry to hear your problem hope you get your money back but could take a lot longer than 2/3 weeks I can tell you from experience. I suggest you go and speak to the immigration officer and explain what happened good look and plaese post how you got on !!!!

[eyebee]

I think Mario's suggestion is probably the best way to go. If you have ANY income at all (even as little as 1,000 baht a month) and can prove it, you don't need to season your money in the bank. All you need to show is that your monthly income x 12, plus the money in your bank is 800,000 or more or your monthly income plus your bank balance / 12 is 65,000 or more. Hope it works out for you.

[Jingthing]

I think Mario's suggestion is probably the best way to go. If you have ANY income at all (even as little as 1,000 baht a month) and can prove it, you don't need to season your money in the bank. All you need to show is that your monthly income x 12, plus the money in your bank is 800,000 or more or your monthly income plus your bank balance / 12 is 65,000 or more. Hope it works out for you.

I agree it's a good suggestion. However, I must say it has been seen as a bit of a grey area over the years whether an income letter showing a very SMALL amount would always be accepted for the combo method for the purpose of avoiding the money seasoning rule for the bank account portion. We do know there is nothing in the WRITTEN law specifying a minimum amount for the income portion using the combo method, but in real life enforcement the officers may see an application with a very small income letter as an attempt to avoid the money seasoning requirement only, which it pretty much would be. So the question is would they give pushback or not, rule or no rule.

That said, I think it would probably work with the very small income letter.

We do know for sure, 100 percent, that starting over with a change of visa status if qualified financially for a later retirement extension, will work at Jomtien.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I'm going to ask this question because I am really curious about the answer AND I might need to do this someday.

As in the OP's situation for people who have messed up on their money seasoning compliance (assuming rejection of such applications) is it possible to do a change of visa status to an O visa IN Thailand without leaving Thailand (at offices that offer the change of visa service to retirement extension qualified people)?

In other words, for example, at Jomtien we KNOW they will accept applicants with 30 days stamps or tourist visas to change to an O visa as the first step of the retirement extension process. But that involves a recent entry physically into Thailand.

But this question is about people with no active 30 day stamp or tourist visa but rather an annual retirement extension that is going to run out.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Jingthing

[Maestro]

Immigration offices will not do a change of visa from one type of non-immigrant visa to another type of non-immigrant visa. The change of visa is from a tourist visa or a visa-exempt entry to a non-immigrant visa.

[Jingthing]

Immigration offices will not do a change of visa from one type of non-immigrant visa to another type of non-immigrant visa. The change of visa is from a tourist visa or a visa-exempt entry to a non-immigrant visa.

OK, thanks. That's pretty much what I thought but I wanted to confirm.

But of course if you're staying here on an extension based on retirement, your initial O visa used to start that could be twenty years old!

So anyway for the OP if his application for extension isn't accepted and he doesn't try the combo method with an income letter, he will need to exit and reenter Thailand with a tourist visa or 30 day stamp.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Jingthing

[Maestro]

Yes, based on the available information those are the OP's options. He makes reference to a "partner" but we can't know what he means by that. Some people use that word to refer to the wife, others to a business partner, others to a person of either sex with whom he/she cohabits, and finally it could also mean a partner in crime.

[bangkokburning]

Personally, I do not think they will simply overlook or excuse the issue. It's not their problem. It's too easy to follow the law. NO...next in line please...

Run your visa out, take a holiday to another country, make an o visa in that country then return and extend it with no seasoning.

??

[Jingthing]

Personally, I do not think they will simply overlook or excuse the issue. It's not their problem. It's too easy to follow the law. NO...next in line please...

Run your visa out, take a holiday to another country, make an o visa in that country then return and extend it with no seasoning.

??

Well ...

I also think the current application would probably be rejected.

Yes, indeed, another alternative than doing a change of visa status at Jomtien (from a tourist visa or a 30 day stamp) is to obtain a single entry O in KL, Penang, or Vientienne Laos, etc.). Easy to get just being over 50 with the reason, will make retirement extension application in Thailand. Probably the much better choice than bothering with a tourist visa as you're there anyway, but with the 30 day stamp no need to bother with an embassy or consulate abroad at all.

HOWEVER, money seasoning will STILL be required using the 800K method for the retirement extension. As it will be a first time, the time period needed is two months rather than three. The extension application would occur during the last 30 days of the 90 day stay of the single entry O.

Cheers.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Jingthing

[livinginthericepatties]

just go to bangkok..and your embassy..swear you have an income of whatever your short..and take that along with your bank statement to your immigration office..and your done..don't worry about it..i had the same problem..was short..alittle due to things coming up i didn't expect was leaving it in the 3 months..till right towards the end like you..just do it , now..you can apply up to 1 month in advance..its not a problem..but its yours to solve, not immigrations..don't except them to overlook it..just go to bangkok..and enjoy yourself for the night.

[Jingthing]

My opinion is that you most certainly should NOT claim income if you do not actually have that income. Immigration may request verification of the income claimed in the income letter. Of course with an income letter using the combo method, the money seasoning requirement goes away for the bank account portion.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Jingthing

[IMA_FARANG]

I posted tis information in October. but I'll post it again.

I sucessfuly renewed my 2nd year retirement extension on 15 October 2012 at Chaneg Wattana and I'm now good until October 2013.

At the time that 2nd extesion was approved my situation was:

1. I did not have 800K Baht in my Thaibank account. Only about 700K Baht.

(reason....hospital/doctor's bills for my Thai GF's medical bills due to an accident)

2. My monthly income was less than the required 65K Bant monthly income.

(reason....my Social Security/Pension is only about 50K Baht equivalent per month)

3.Also because I had to withdraw funds to pay for my GF's medical bills, the approximately 700K Bant I did have in my account was not "seasoned" for 3 months anyhow.

But I presented my

....bank passbook and Bank account confirmation letter,

....U.S. embessy income statement,

....a statement from U.S. Social Security showing my Social Security income.

all presented to Thai immigration.

I used the Combination method, combining bank funds and monthly pension income.

As I said, it worked. and my extension was approved until October 15, 2013.

So I am proof that the Combination method DOES work....at least at Chaeng Wattana.

And there is NO required "seasoning" period on funds in your Thai bank account when you use this combination method.

As it says in the Bible, "They that have eyes, let them see; and they that have ears let them hear and understand".

[Jingthing]

As stated, when using the COMBO method (combination of Thai bank account under 800K PLUS income letter from embassy totaling at least 800K baht) money seasoning is NOT required for the banked money as it would be for an 800K banked money application only. That is in keeping with the well established, well known, long standing written rules for retirement extension applications.

The only exceptions to that are that we've had some reports over the years from some provincial offices who don't enforce based on the written national rules and decide to require money seasoning for combo applications anyway. That is definitely rare and wouldn't apply to Jomtien or Bangkok or most everywhere.

A grey area in my mind is if someone applies with a VERY SMALL income letter. For example, income letter showing an income of 2K baht per month (24K annually) with the balance in the bank account meeting at least 800K. Technically money seasoning should not be required for ANY combo application, but I don't think its paranoid to expect potential pushback if applying with an income letter showing such trivial income.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Jingthing

[NancyL]

I hope the OP comes back to tell us the outcome.

If this were any other forum on TV, besides the polite, well-moderated Visa forum, I think there'd be questions about how someone could permit their visa bank account to be used for paying household expenses. Mine doesn't have ATM access. I simply visit Bangkok Bank one a year to ask them to update my passbook and give me a letter for Immigration.

Edited November 2, 2012 by NancyL

[Jingthing]

I have autopay for my electricity and internet bills connected to a separate account from my visa qualifying account. While I do spend down from my visa qualifying account via ATM during the year outside the seasoning period, which is totally legitimate and common and compliant with the visa retirement extension rules, I agree it is a good idea to take special care with that account. Which is why I opened another account just for the utility bills.

My personal concern annually over meeting the seasoning requirements is related to potential issues with MECHANICS of transferring money from my U.S. accounts to Thailand in a timely manner. (No, I am not willing to just leave the pile there all year untouched, thank you very much!) Then of course people may experience emergency expenses that spoils their seasoning. Three months is a long time; a lot can happen! The reality is for a variety of reasons, totally preventable or not, some people have, do, and will continue to sometimes find that their money seasoning thing got spoiled. This causes a hassle but it's not the end of the road, as explained thoroughly in this thread.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Jingthing

[fishhooks]

It's a genuine shame in relation to a major regional office such as Khon Kaen, that they still insist on the 3 month seasoning of bank funds, when using the combined method of such funds and annual income.

Seems ridiculous, even for Thailand in this day and age that a national rule is ignored so blatently.

[NancyL]

Actually, no Fishhooks, I think it's a good idea but I do agree that it is counter to the normal practice in the rest of the country.

The "intent" of the seasoning requirement is to show that the funds are available to the foreigner for emergencies, like hospitalization. With the "no seasoning" requirement for the combo method, it's too easy to get a short-term loan to cover the financial requirements. Obviously, the visa agents who do this make great profits, but they aren't there to help the foreigners a few months later when funds are needed to pay medical bills.

Some would call this "obtaining a retirement extension fradulently" But actually it's totaly legal and accepted in most provinces.

Good for Khon Kaen for requiring seasoning -- they've probably had to give care to too many destitute foreginers in their excellent regional medical center.

[fishhooks]

Actually, no Fishhooks, I think it's a good idea but I do agree that it is counter to the normal practice in the rest of the country.

The "intent" of the seasoning requirement is to show that the funds are available to the foreigner for emergencies, like hospitalization. With the "no seasoning" requirement for the combo method, it's too easy to get a short-term loan to cover the financial requirements. Obviously, the visa agents who do this make great profits, but they aren't there to help the foreigners a few months later when funds are needed to pay medical bills.

Some would call this "obtaining a retirement extension fradulently" But actually it's totaly legal and accepted in most provinces.

Good for Khon Kaen for requiring seasoning -- they've probably had to give care to too many destitute foreginers in their excellent regional medical center.

Yes, points taken and your theory I'm sure does hold 'water' in some cases where foreigners have got into trouble.

But it still comes back to the point that this seasoning rule needs to be tidied up so that it does mean what it says nationally.

Probably doesn't happen a lot, but an older retired foreigner who has correctly lived under the rule of one office with the correct method, moves to another area and has to re-arrange his style of financially living, simply because an office like Khon Kaen wants to make their own rule.

Edited December 25, 2012 by fishhooks

[poanoi]

On a sidenote, make another bank account for online payments, with far less in it