11 Feb Anti-Thaksin Demonstration Thread

[penzman]

Funny how one side is relying on misinformation and the other telling the truth.

A caller on a tv show tonight was saying that the obotor in a northern city (sorry, forgot name) had gotten about 5000 people to sign up for a sporting event sponsored by Singha until someone noticed they were signing up for a pro-Thaksin event. What they're actually doing is slowly deceiving and losing pro-Thaksin supporters with ridiculous ploys and lies that keep blowing up in their faces.

Policemen were actually distributing water at the rally tonight.

It was said that 20 000 policemen were assigned to work at the event. Just more of them hearing the truth and changing their minds about the way this government is run.

Worthy of a Hollywod movie.

[Ricardo]

Looks on TV to have been a very good turnout, possibly as many as last Saturday, what did it look like on-the-ground, anyone know somebody who was there ?

The nutter handing-out pro-Thaksin flyers looked to have been very carefully & gently handled. Good ! Way to go.

[penzman]

A pro-Thaksin man holding a sign was politely and gently escorted out by an elderly man last week as well. Keep up this attitude and you'll get more and more people attending while proving wrong those who oppose these rallies.

[chownah]

So has this group of people found a name for themselves yet?

Do you think that they will develop their own political party?

What happened with the petition they handed in last week? has any action been taken?

How long before Toxin is gone?

Will there be another rally next week?

If they form a political party will they claim the Royal Plaza as their club house and claim the right to meet there anytime they want?

Lots of people were sort of hinting that the gov't would be violent this time around...twice violence has been predicted and twice it hasn't happened....are these predictors not really in touch with what's going on here?

[stumonster]

Will there be another rally next week?

The next rally will be held on February 26.

Lots of people were sort of hinting that the gov't would be violent this time around...twice violence has been predicted and twice it hasn't happened....are these predictors not really in touch with what's going on here?

A plainclothes policeman at the nearby Metropolitan Police Bureau was upset by the treatment of his boss, police chief Kowit Wattana, who was surrounded by protesters when he tried to enter the rally site, as well as the abuse and shouts of hatred against Thaksin, a former police officer.

“We should do it like Black May. Set up termination teams, put them on the back of pickup trucks and they can just press [the gun triggers],” he said, referring to the death squads sent out to liquidate or kill protesters after the clash in May 1992.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/02/12...es_20000776.php

[ratcatcher]

"Come, I have chocolate cake waiting for you."

[The Coder]

Protesters call for Thai PM to quit, but rally turnout low

15,000 demonstrators down from 50,000 at the royal square a week ago

BANGKOK (AFP) - Thousands of protesters rallied to call for Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra to resign, but the turnout was much smaller than last week's mass demonstration which rattled the government.

Chanting "Thaksin get out," they held banners that read: "Thaksin=Toxin: Master of Evil" and many wore large stickers printed with a caricature of the premier with a Hitler-type moustache and the slogan "Wanted - Dead or Alive."

"He is very arrogant, insulting other people and running the government as a one-man show. He is worse than a tyrant," campaign leader Sondhi Limthongkul told the cheering crowd.

The protest alliance would rally again on February 26, he said in a midnight closing address, "and this time we will not disperse until we claim victory."

Sondhi claimed a turnout of 100,000 but police said that partly because of confusion over the venue there were only about 15,000 demonstrators at the rally -- well down from the 50,000 who massed in the royal square a week ago.

Metropolitan police had earlier banned protesters from the Royal Plaza, which is closely identified with Thailand's revered monarch, and threatened to arrest those who defied the order.

But after several hundred demonstrators marched arm-in-arm into the square, negotiations took place and they were eventually allowed in under the watch of hundreds of police officers. The February 26 rally is to be held elsewhere.

Thaksin, who celebrated five years in office on Thursday, has repeatedly refused to quit despite the protests and the departure of two ministers, but on Saturday floated the possibility of a referendum on constitutional reforms demanded by his critics, which could make it easier to unseat a government.

"I welcome the call for constitutional changes, but I have to ask for the public's approval. If they agree, then I will go ahead," he said in a radio address, adding that a ballot could be held in April.

The campaign was given momentum by his family's 1.9 billion dollar sale of telecoms giant Shin Corp., a deal which avoided capital gains tax and drew criticism that critical Thai assets were being sold to foreigners.

"I think our prime minister is not honest. He sold our assets, our satellites and mobile phones, to Singapore. His action is stupid, and he's not sincere," said one protester, 27-year-old Dananat Nimitanya.

"I will keep coming every week," he vowed as he handed out yellow bandanas, a colour associated with King Bhumibol Adulyadej. Many in the crowd wore yellow T-shirts and waved yellow banners.

The mood was relaxed, with children and many older people among the crowd. Vendors sold drinks, snacks and plastic sheeting to sit on, as well as flowers and incense sticks to place at the statue of a former king.

Sondhi, a media mogul who was once a close ally of Thaksin, has drawn together a disparate array of protest groups, including rights activists, opponents of free trade, students, and media freedom groups.

But the low turnout is likely to be seen as indication that the anti-government movement is losing steam.

Thaksin reiterated Saturday that there was no wrongdoing in the Shin Corp. sale to Singapore's state-owned investment firm Temasek and that he would not cave in to calls to quit.

"You can rest assured that I will not do the wrong thing. I will be honest, uphold the rules, and not take improper advantage during my time in office as prime minister," he said in a radio address.

Meanwhile, several pro-Thaksin rallies were held in the country's rural north and northeast, drawing several thousand people at each.

2006-02-12 AFP

[lopburi3]

My eyes say more than February 4. But then I didn't have access to that AFP police estimate.

[tettyan]

Nuts how AFP just takes whatever the police say at face value, esp considering what that officer said to The Nation about death squads. So how do we arrive at an accurate estimate? 15,000 or 50,000? It's easy for non-native speakers to mispronounce the numbers. Though I'm not over there now, I was at one of Sondhi's shows in Lumphini that was said to draw about 50,000, and judging from the pictures, yesterday's rally definitely did not look significantly smaller than that.

Any reports yet from those who were on the ground?

[ColPyat]

Actually, the estimated number according to the police were 23 000 demonstrators. They got to that number by correlating the size of the square with how many people fill one square meter. In addition to that they have counted the entering and leaving people at certain time intervals. Appearantly last week attendence was a bit more than 30 000. For me those figures are far more believable than what was reported.

I wonder though how many people here actually listened to the speaches and understood them.

I personally was rather frightened by the extreme right wing nationalist rethoric of the different speakers/demagogues. I don't think that the leaders of the demonstrations are any more "democratic" than the present government. And, gathering from conversation i have had with some of those leaders, they do not rule out future violence in order to achieve their desired results.

Additionally, the incident of the lone Thaksin supporter led away was not as peaceful as it appears. If he would not have been protected he would have been torn apart. There was a crowd following him, shouting insults, and several attempts to hit him.

[frodo]

Protesters call for Thai PM to quit, but rally turnout low

BANGKOK (AFP) -

The campaign was given momentum by his family's 1.9 billion dollar sale of telecoms giant Shin Corp., a deal which avoided capital gains tax and drew criticism that critical Thai assets were being sold to foreigners.

"I think our prime minister is not honest. He sold our assets, our satellites and mobile phones, to Singapore. His action is stupid, and he's not sincere," said one protester, 27-year-old Dananat Nimitanya.

Thaksin reiterated Saturday that there was no wrongdoing in the Shin Corp. sale to Singapore's state-owned investment firm Temasek and that he would not cave in to calls to quit.

2006-02-12 AFP

"Fly, my pretties! Fly, fly! Fly off to Ample I and II! National assets, fly into my personal bank accounts!"

[lopburi3]

Actually, the estimated number according to the police were 23 000 demonstrators

And how did AFP manage to confuse that do you think? Perhaps a little more transparency and honest reporting would go a long way to improve matters at this juncture.

[marshbags]

Ricardo wrote: "Whatever, our local village head-man is following his orders from the top, and broadcast (on the loudspeakers yeasterday morning) instructions to his villagers, NOT to attend any rallies today !"

The village headman is following orders from up above.....his subordinates....the villagers.... .are the masses who dare not question his word or challenge his authority.....a bit like TOXIN....

The Royal Plaza is going to be a tinderbox this afternoon, even if the Metropolitan Police have said the protesters can use it afterall.

Just goes to show how rattled the government is about all this Sondhi stuff, when it gets to the stage where demonstrators are already marching en route to the plaza, before they can actually make a proper and firm decision.....women....

So.....you use the word "women" as a term of derision? Do you? Do you think that women are indecisive and weak? Do you think that they are inferior to men? Is this how you relate to them....as inferiors?

If the truth be known it,s the other way round in most cases from what appears to happen in public regarding the role of women.

Thank god for Thai ladies.

We know the truth don,t we gentlemen.

Also another successful demonstration that has gone off peacefully throughout and if this is allowed to continue the support will grow and grow.

All credit to Thai people for showing restraint in what is a powder keg situation at the moment due to the unpredictability of it all.

Regarding supporting F**S**N, again most of the people are being used and taken advantage of

by the puyai ect. and cannot be used as an indication of what is really going on re. supporting him

marshbags

[ColPyat]

Actually, the estimated number according to the police were 23 000 demonstrators

And how did AFP manage to confuse that do you think? Perhaps a little more transparency and honest reporting would go a long way to improve matters at this juncture.

Well, you got a lot of different sources of information, each with its own filters and agendas.

Ask any of the Sondhi crowd, and they'll tell you it must have been 100K, ask TRT and it were just a few jealous disgruntled people.

Then you have lots of journalists who never really heard of impartial reporting, others too lazy to confirm facts. And you get some who try to be honest, but just get lost in the jungle of vested interests and hidden agendas of all sides involved.

Unfortunately it appears to me that both vocal sides of the present conflict have certain difficulties in transparency and try to manipulate the media and public in a similar fashion.

The sad conclusion i can make so far in this issue is that anything resembling democracy in Thailand is still very far away.

[Butterfly]

Keep in mind that Taxin is pro-western, pro-business despite a few rethoric non-sense about foreigners from his party members. I don't like him or his style of governing, but the loonies at the Park seems far more dangerous than Taxin alone. They are not pro-western or even pro-business. We farangs might found ourselves in a very dangerous situation if Taxin must leave. The guy is bad but so is the other side. It's like choosing between Stalinism or Leninism, not much difference, and one is worst than the other.

[Tarragona]

We farangs might found ourselves in a very dangerous situation if Taxin must leave. The guy is bad but so is the other side.

There isn't really another side here though, not in terms of a party that will win seats and have a chance of being in government after the election. Sondhi makes a lot of people nervous and he seems to be getting the message on this. I don't think a political party in which he had a significant role would do very well.

I didn't watch much of yesterday's event but last week it was a bit disturbing to hear some of the speakers, including Sondhi. They actually presented very little in the way of substance. They really need to focus on getting across to the public exactly what Thaksin has done wrong.

If I was Thaksin I'd be tempted to call an election - he could still find himself with a democratic mandate, even at this stage.

[Butterfly]

We farangs might found ourselves in a very dangerous situation if Taxin must leave. The guy is bad but so is the other side.

There isn't really another side here though, not in terms of a party that will win seats and have a chance of being in government after the election. Sondhi makes a lot of people nervous and he seems to be getting the message on this. I don't think a political party in which he had a significant role would do very well.

I didn't watch much of yesterday's event but last week it was a bit disturbing to hear some of the speakers, including Sondhi. They actually presented very little in the way of substance. They really need to focus on getting across to the public exactly what Thaksin has done wrong.

If I was Thaksin I'd be tempted to call an election - he could still find himself with a democratic mandate, even at this stage.

They had a story this morning on the BBC with Taxin going for a referendum very soon. That might kill the opposition right there, or make it stronger.

[lopburi3]

There isn't really another side here though,

And that is a very important point. This is not a rally (for) but a demonstration (against). Nobody is suggesting these speakers would form a new government.

[cclub75]

If I was Thaksin I'd be tempted to call an election - he could still find himself with a democratic mandate, even at this stage.

They had a story this morning on the BBC with Taxin going for a referendum very soon. That might kill the opposition right there, or make it stronger.

Well... it appears that Thaksin launched this idea of referendum saturday during his radio show.

So it's not clear if he already took the decision. I think it might be an attempt to confuse the democrats.

Because if they refuse (a referendum would be obviously won by Thaksin with a large scope question), they would be in a delicate position ("why you refuse to let the people express themselves ?")

It would be a perfect trap.

And the other hand, Thaksin should gamble and call for general elections instead. A little bit more dangerous... but he could do a superb political move.

I agree the "other side" is pretty empty : no one emerges as a leader.

So if Thaksin go, we could have a "neutral" PM, the the "third man", he would be very weak, at the mercy of all the factions... In this scenario, we would have great political instability.

I agree also, the opposition sounds very nationalistic. They use too often the wrong arguments. Instead to say that Thaksin is a thief, they say "thaksin sells the country to foreigners". This is really not the point (from my point of view). I feel unease. But maybe it's just a strategy, rather than a conviction.

[chownah]

There isn't really another side here though,

And that is a very important point. This is not a rally (for) but a demonstration (against). Nobody is suggesting these speakers would form a new government.

Actually I've been suggesting that they may be building a political party....which in theory means that they could for a new government if they got enough votes.....but then again "Nobody" is my middle name so I guess your statement is correct.

[Ricardo]

Protesters call for Thai PM to quit, but rally turnout low

15,000 demonstrators down from 50,000 at the royal square a week ago

Make that 100,000 last week, and a good turnout this time also, despite many protesters being turned away by the police again.

But the low turnout is likely to be seen as indication that the anti-government movement is losing steam.

Repeat after Me : I believe everything I am told on government-controlled TV

Meanwhile, several pro-Thaksin rallies were held in the country's rural north and northeast, drawing several thousand people at each.

At our local one, the inducement was rumoured to be a free song-thaew ride into Chiang-Mai, 100 Baht in cash, and a free meal afterwards. Having driven past during the meeting, it looked sparsely-attended, to me. Perhaps because the payment is going down ?

As someone told me, who had been at last Saturday's rally, "We all go for free, and pay our own travel-costs, because we hate Thaksin. He has to pay people to go, or give away free cars & houses & money."

2006-02-12 AFP

[Heng]

I agree also, the opposition sounds very nationalistic. They use too often the wrong arguments. Instead to say that Thaksin is a thief, they say "thaksin sells the country to foreigners".

This has long been Sondhi's platform. He's been outspoken like this for more than awhile, it's not just a theme for these rallies. I'm not quite sure why some foreigners think the Thaksin government isn't foreigner friendly. It's not like laws against foreign ownership of land or the whole jumping through hoops visa run thing won't be a part of the next gov't that comes along.

[bulmercke]

Sondhi, his supporters, The Alliance For Democracy have a very simple objective - to oust Thaksin from power.

A snap election, referendum, change in the constitution won't change matters much as far as they're concerned.

Thaksin's got to go. He's got to step down. Nothing else will suffice - it's as simple as that! And obviously it's going to be a very bitter pill for him to have to swallow.

THIS LAME DUCK GOVERNMENT WON'T SEE THE YEAR OUT............that's my prediction.

[bulmercke]

The Alliance For Democracy.....Thailand's Future.....

The present.....

Unlucky little fellow....what a rotten start to life!

[Cassandra]

Sondhi, his supporters, The Alliance For Democracy have a very simple objective - to oust Thaksin from power.

A snap election, referendum, change in the constitution won't change matters much as far as they're concerned.

Thaksin's got to go. He's got to step down. Nothing else will suffice - it's as simple as that! And obviously it's going to be a very bitter pill for him to have to swallow.

THIS LAME DUCK GOVERNMENT WON'T SEE THE YEAR OUT............that's my prediction.

In other words regardless of what the Thai people might decide in a general election, you and similar farangs have concluded Thaksin must go before year end.If the visa runner fraternity actually bothered to digest what Sondhi and others (including some senior Democrats) are saying, they might appreciate a post-Thaksin regime could be even more anti foreigner.I hope Thaksin does go in due course and that the Thai people will vote him out, but it's important this happens in an orderly way.

[ColPyat]

Thaksin's got to go. He's got to step down. Nothing else will suffice - it's as simple as that! And obviously it's going to be a very bitter pill for him to have to swallow.

THIS LAME DUCK GOVERNMENT WON'T SEE THE YEAR OUT............that's my prediction.

Your activist enthusiasm is laudable, but concerning Thai politics rather naive.

The Thaksin government is everything else than "lame duck". It is entirely the fault of those people of the alliance and the opposition parties that Thaksin has been able to come to power in the first place. While those in opposition have carried the traditional arrogance towards the upcountry population in the north and isaarn, Thaksin has made a point from the beginning to look for popular support in the villages. He not just bought votes and and goodwill of those villagers, he also has, unlike the traditional parties, consistently held village meetings all over the country. Fact is that TRT is the only party that does have regular meetings in the villages, speaks directly to the villagers.

Sondhi and his crowd, and all the opposition parties are not present in village Thailand. They are underestimating Thaksin's support. It is not, as they claim, only by money, but Thaksin has a genuine support there due to his presence, and the lack of presence of everybody else. Thaksin was the first Thai politician who has done so. And instead of holding right wing speaches in front of a crowd of mainly middle class urbanites the alliance should start building grassroots support, so that one day they can oust Thaksin by democratic means. Gathering from conversations i have had during the rallies, some of the alliance leaders will in the future not stop at provocing violence in order to oust Thaksin. This is far more worrying than a continuing TRT rule.

I don't know if you understand the speaches. Regardless of what they say in the English language media, during those speaches i hear mainly right wing nationalist hysteria.

Do you know the meaning of those yellow shirts?

Recently a book has been written by a man called Pramuan Rujanaseri, a revisionist history book that has been taken apart by scholars with more common sense, more or less arguing for a return to absolute monarchy. This book is sort of the inspiration to a lot of those protests, and yellow shirts, has been mentioned many times during those speaches.

That frightens me even more than Thaksin.

Where have those activists been during the drugwar? Several thousand Thais and hilltribe people have been summarily executed in those dark days, but those activists have been quiet, or even supported this massacre, like sondhi did. Now they talk about "saving the country", but when it came down to saving the people, they were shining with their absence.

Because that's what this present protest is all about - the nation, but not the people. especially not the poor. If there would be elections tomorrow in Thailand, TRT would win the elections with an overwhelming majority, again. If those people of the alliance would want to have one day an ounce of credibility, they should start thinking of the people, educate the millions upcountry.

Their slogan "villagers elect the government - city people oust it" does not hold up in present climate anymore. Thaksin has changed that. Previous dictators have cared as little as their opposition about the villagers, so they have cared very little about who rules in Bangkok. Now they do care, and unfortunately they are staunch supporters of Thaksin. And that is entirely the fault of the opposition to Thaksin.

Thaksin still has his 19 million votes, and that means he can blackmail the country as long as his opponents are caught up in their own arrogance and nationalist hysteria.

[Mobi]

Colpyat, you are absolutely right. The two sides are completely polarised, and although Thaksin is one of the most venal leaders this country has ever had, uniquely he carries the 'people' with him. Talk to the farangs who only read the Bangkok Post or Nation, and they are convinced that Thaksin's time is up. Talk to the villagers up-country, and for the main part, they have no idea what the problems are - and they certainly don't think that their friend Thaksin is going some time soon. We are in unchartered territory now and I for one wouldn't like to predict the outcome. As you say, the best thing the opposition alliance could do is to start wooing the rural polution - and that's going to be a very hard, uphill slog, given that Thaksin controls the up country media, the armed forces, the police, the government and has more money than all the alliance put together. And I doubt that the alliance is much of an alliance

[bulmercke]

Thaksin's got to go. He's got to step down. Nothing else will suffice - it's as simple as that! And obviously it's going to be a very bitter pill for him to have to swallow.

THIS LAME DUCK GOVERNMENT WON'T SEE THE YEAR OUT............that's my prediction.

Your activist enthusiasm is laudable, but concerning Thai politics rather naive.

>>>>>Right!

The Thaksin government is everything else than "lame duck". It is entirely the fault of those people of the alliance and the opposition parties that Thaksin has been able to come to power in the first place.

>>>>>>Yes, I absolutely agree with you on that point.

While those in opposition have carried the traditional arrogance towards the upcountry population in the north and isaarn, Thaksin has made a point from the beginning to look for popular support in the villages. He not just bought votes and and goodwill of those villagers, he also has, unlike the traditional parties, consistently held village meetings all over the country. Fact is that TRT is the only party that does have regular meetings in the villages, speaks directly to the villagers.

Sondhi and his crowd, and all the opposition parties are not present in village Thailand. They are underestimating Thaksin's support. It is not, as they claim, only by money, but Thaksin has a genuine support there due to his presence, and the lack of presence of everybody else. Thaksin was the first Thai politician who has done so. And instead of holding right wing speaches in front of a crowd of mainly middle class urbanites the alliance should start building grassroots support, so that one day they can oust Thaksin by democratic means.

>>>>>>This is true, but to give credit to the newly formed alliance - The Alliance for Democracy - and to quote today's Nation: "The anti-Thaksin alliance is drawing in an ever-widening cross-section of society and many in the group believe that once their message gets through to what they call the "grass-roots" people, the prime-minister's 'public relations magic" which has held them in thrall will wither."

Let's hope. The anti-Thaksin movement which is still very much in it's infancy will, undoubtedly, grow and sometime in the future become a nationwide protest. This is starting to happen, spearheaded by the recent events in Bangkok.

One big problem facing the anti-Thaksin group has been the lack of coverage in the broadcast media - not surprisingly - but I noticed at Saturday's rally that all the national channels were present each with their own outside broadcast facilities, although some still chose to give little or no exposure to the event.

Gathering from conversations i have had during the rallies, some of the alliance leaders will in the future not stop at provocing violence in order to oust Thaksin. This is far more worrying than a continuing TRT rule.

>>>>>>>Yes, this is not good. But having said that the anti-Thaksin supporters are without question, decent and civil people who would abhor the use of violence to bring about political change - but having said that, I wouldn't count it out occurring in the future!

I don't know if you understand the speaches. Regardless of what they say in the English language media, during those speaches i hear mainly right wing nationalist hysteria.

>>>>>>I read the transcripts of the most pertinent parts in The Nation, Thai Day, etc.

Do you know the meaning of those yellow shirts?

Recently a book has been written by a man called Pramuan Rujanaseri, a revisionist history book that has been taken apart by scholars with more common sense, more or less arguing for a return to absolute monarchy. This book is sort of the inspiration to a lot of those protests, and yellow shirts, has been mentioned many times during those speaches.

That frightens me even more than Thaksin.

>>>>>>Yes, this is dangerous territory, but things couldn't be much worse than they are now, though I'm sure you will disagree with me on this point. I think the oldage: "In desperate times....men are wont to do desperate things." could apply.

Where have those activists been during the drugwar? Several thousand Thais and hilltribe people have been summarily executed in those dark days, but those activists have been quiet, or even supported this massacre, like sondhi did. Now they talk about "saving the country", but when it came down to saving the people, they were shining with their absence.

>>>>>>>This is an interesting point. I think it's a sign of how things have changed recently for when the executions took place, there were raised eyebrows and criticism both here and abroad. Now Thaksin couldn't get away with something like; there would be DOWNRIGHT OUTRAGE...it would, without doubt, be the final apple to tilt the apple cart! The political climate has changed in that sense.

Because that's what this present protest is all about - the nation, but not the people. especially not the poor. If there would be elections tomorrow in Thailand, TRT would win the elections with an overwhelming majority, again.

>>>>>>>Not sure if I agree with you on this point - "Because that's what this present protest is all about - the nation, but not the people."

>>>>>However, you are right about an election tomorrow.

If those people of the alliance would want to have one day an ounce of credibility, they should start thinking of the people, educate the millions upcountry.

>>>>>>This is their objective.

Their slogan "villagers elect the government - city people oust it" does not hold up in present climate anymore. Thaksin has changed that. Previous dictators have cared as little as their opposition about the villagers, so they have cared very little about who rules in Bangkok. Now they do care, and unfortunately they are staunch supporters of Thaksin. And that is entirely the fault of the opposition to Thaksin.

>>>>>>I agree.

Thaksin still has his 19 million votes, and that means he can blackmail the country as long as his opponents are caught up in their own arrogance and nationalist hysteria.

Arrogance and nationalist hysteria......sounds like you're talking about Thaksin's character and what epitomises the ruling party!

[ColPyat]

The problem i have with the nation is that their reporting is slightly slanted by wishful thinking, if not pure activism. This is not the role of journalism. Of course it is not the role of journalism either to obey government censorship.

Anyhow, i dare to predict that the TV channels now showing more of the protests will not sway the upcountry voters, might even achieve the opposite. Especially because during the speaches logic was replaced more often than not by blatant insults, such as sondhi's (rather funny) joke about samak and his dog DNA.

This is a very critical time for Thailand. Thaksin is rousing the support of the majority. Even if he can be convicted of his crimes, how safe will it be to oust him against the wishes of the vast majority of the Thai population? Do you want to risk major bloodshed in order to get rid of him?

I don't view the demonstrators as that decent. The attempts of violence against the two lone Thaksin supporters at the rallies do show a different picture. If they would not have been protected they would have been torn to pieces.

Here is a small article i came across recently that sheds some light behind the motivations of the fractions involved:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Same Old Royalism Hatches Again

Thongchai Winichakul

Madison, Wisconsin.

The fad about Pramuan Rujanaseri's book, The Royal Power, baffles me. It is an overly rhetorical book that happens to come out at the right timing, namely when the public get fed up with the Prime Minister's enormous power and his arrogance.

Among the haphazard thinking and poor argumentation, perhaps one example is enough.

"The fact is that His Majesty will endorse every constitution before it can be implemented. His power apparently overwhelms what's stated in the charters." This is a quoted from the article in The Nation, Sept 5, but Pramuan himself is apparently very proud of this argument too.

This is pervert logic. Is a US president above the law since he signs it into law? Does having the authority to veto a law mean he is above the law? NO and NO. How many orders and regulations Pramuan himself signed at the Ministry of Interior? Was he above those regulations? (Perhaps he was.)

It is irresponsible to mislead the public by logical tricks, especially as those tricks lead to the suggestion that the king is above the constitution.

Pramuan's book is nothing but a popularization of the ideas held among the royalists after 1932 who had tried several times to revive the power of the monarch. The fierce struggle over this issue led to the Boworadet Rebellion in 1933 - a civil war of sort that cost dozens of lives, and the abdication of King Prachadhipok (Rama VII) in 1935 after he lost the political fight to have more power under the constitution.

The royalists were subdued during the first Phibun regime (1938-44). After WWII, it was Pridi Phanomyong who allowed the royals to participate in politics (except the immediate family members of the monarch) and returned all the titles and privileges to the royals, including the chief of them, Prince Rangsit or Kromkhun Chainat Narendhorn, who was the last surviving son of King Chulalongkorn and who had been a leader of the royalists.

Pridi's compromise was the result of domestic politics during WWII when many royalists were among the backbone of the Free Thai movement against Phibun. What Pridi didn't anticipate was that the royalists began to plot revenge against him almost immediately, and to revive the king's power - not to the pre-1932 absolute monarchism but along the line that King Rama VII (ditto: the royalists) wanted. The wrongful accusation that Pridi had something to do with the assassination of King Ananda in June 1946 was the dirty work of these people. Pridi suffered tremendously from 1946 to the end of his life at the hand of these royalists in cooperation with the army.

The 1947 coup finished Pridi, even though he tried to come back a few years later. It ended the People's Party's era. Historians usually pay attention to the role of the new generation of the army leaders, such as Phin Choonhavan and Phao Sriyanond. The fact is that the hand prints of the royalists were everywhere in this coup and a few years after, belonging to people from the high princes to the energetic Pridi hunters like the Pramoj brothers, and more.

In March 1946, Prince Dhaninivat (Kromamun Phitthayalap Phrutthayakorn) delivered a historic presentation to the special audience that included the young King Anand, his mother and his brother (the present king). Prince Dhani played an important role in the Privy Council during Rama VII that blocked the king's efforts to "reform" Thai politics. He was a brilliant scholar who after the royalist set back during the first Phibun, spent time on scholarly works. He was among the kings' teachers who quietly groomed the young monarchs from the late 1940s to the 1950s, and also became the President of the Privy Council after Prince Rangsit died in 1951.

Prince Dhani's presentation, "The Old Siamese Conception of the Monarchy", was a short but truly original work of scholarship. It laid the intellectual foundation for the royalist discourse to enhance the royal power in the post-1932 era, and the discourse originated by this article is the framework for the development of the monarchical institution in the past 60 years. (Historians who only see the rise of the monarchy from Sarit's era will find both Sarit's ideology and the king's activities the offshoots of the discourse begun by Prince Dhani. So was Kukrit Pramoj's idea on the monarchy)

ALL the major points in Pramuan's book are merely derivatives of this Dhani's work (via the exegesis by Thongthong Jantharangsu's thesis in 1986). Pramuan only adds his own non-sense argumentation in the up-to-date rhetoric and in timely politics. Nothing more, really.

Pramuan's contribution to this royalist theory of the royal power is to popularize it for consumption by anybody who lacks historical perspective, have short memory, or who want to appear more royalist than the royals themselves. Those people, including famous journalists, are doing a great service to the royalist efforts in trying to make the de facto royal power into de jure.

If concerned citizens of the present generation, like those at the Manager or at this newspaper, are fascinated and convinced by Pramuan's ideas, it reflects how superficial and uncritical they are and how poor their historical knowledge is. For the royalists, their responses to Pramuan's book are predictable. What else we expect them to say, except not saying at all.

Before going crazy with Pramuan's book, we should study how horribly Pridi Phanomyong had suffered at the hands of the royalists especially during 1946-49. The great irony is that some of the advocates for enhancing the royal power tell the story of Pridi working hand in hand with the royals for the enhanced royal power. "Ridiculous" would be my softest comment on these royalist pretenders.

Sorry, I am not Thaksin's supporter. I have written and talked in many places against the current government, especially its hopeless handling of the crisis in the Deep South. But an effort to undermine the government by reviving the old royalism is very dangerous and must be countered. It is easy to see short term benefits for Pramuan, and probably for those journalist critics of Thaksin too. But this kind of short term tactic is extremely short-sighted and very dangerous, unless all of them truly want the royalist regime of democracy in Thailand.

By the way, you write, "more than 1,000 years of absolute monarchy in Thailand". Can you tell me from when to when -- since Thailand was a Happy Valley kingdom at the Altai Mountain in Mongolia when the Thai kings ruled over the whole Asia? With such a statement in your highly educated newspaper, I am not surprised that Pramuan's book is a fad among Thais. As a historian, I plead guilty for failure to make people intelligent about history. The absolute monarchy in Siam lasted less than 60 years -- around the 1870s to 1932 only. Your statement makes the royalist ideas Paleolithic indeed.

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[Butterfly]

I would love to see Taxin go for what he has done in the past, but the current opposition is not credible. At least with Taxin there are no more surprises. We know him. The opposition is a different beast in itself.

I see a lot of similarities between Chavez and Taxin. The "Elite" Venezualans with the help of the CIA pigs tried to "remove" Chavez. They failed. The day after Chavez disappeared, they were enforcing a curfew and shooting at protesters in the name of "democracy" and more "freedom". At the end Chavez returned after his loyal guards of his Palace took over security and chased after the "illegal" self proclaimed president. With a strong support base, the coup was missed.

I think in some extend, this is what happening here, except that the military so far has not been involved. But it took months of protests by the opposition in Venezuela to organize their "coup".

I don't think we are there yet, maybe in 6 months things will be even more different